*clarity Update* C'mon De Are You Really Going To Ruin Excalibur Like This?

[Malitias]

 Stop saying that movement powers will become useless.

Movement powers will become useless.

 

Edit: To me it seems like the majority of players complaining about the upcoming changes are the ones who play Excal as a rush frame who want to press 3 and 1 to get across the map as fast as possible.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Malitias

[Beetamus]

I have one teeny tiny wish for DE when they do this re-vamp:

 

Please don't make Excalibur's ultimate "Hysteria 0.5" ... he deserves more than a copy/paste ability.

This, very much this...

[BlueThingy]

"Don't remove Super Jump"

 

...This is it?  This is the hill you all want to die on?

[Holeypaladin]

Excalibur is the most useless warframe in the game outside of conclave.  So yeah it needs a rework.

[RealPandemonium]

Excalibur is the most useless warframe in the game outside of conclave.  So yeah it needs a rework.

If powers don't win the game for you they are useless.

[WolvenEdge]

If powers don't win the game for you they are useless.

 

And if all you have in your arsenal are weapons, all you are is a shiny bug carrying a Heavy Boltor, waiting to be squashed by the very Grineer we all oppose. The abilities give every WarFrame a sense of utility and ability that no other Frame has, making each unique and allowing/enabling different playstyles.

Lorewise and playwise, proper use of energy-based techniques are a point of pride for many Tenno. Please remember that this game was not based upon the usual Western ideology of picking up a weapon for empowerment, it was based more on the Eastern ideal of becoming ONE with your chosen weapon, using it to become a weapon yourself, to strengthen and perfect the self rather than relying on your weapon for all of your power and sense of identity.

 

TL;DR;DC

If you want to be an artillery platform, that's FINE by me, but that's not what the game is about and we both know it... and no ability 'wins the game for you', you have to work with it like you have to work with everything else.

[Halisi]

And if all you have in your arsenal are weapons, all you are is a shiny bug carrying a Heavy Boltor, waiting to be squashed by the very Grineer we all oppose. The abilities give every WarFrame a sense of utility and ability that no other Frame has, making each unique and allowing/enabling different playstyles.

Lorewise and playwise, proper use of energy-based techniques are a point of pride for many Tenno. Please remember that this game was not based upon the usual Western ideology of picking up a weapon for empowerment, it was based more on the Eastern ideal of becoming ONE with your chosen weapon, using it to become a weapon yourself, to strengthen and perfect the self rather than relying on your weapon for all of your power and sense of identity.

 

TL;DR;DC

If you want to be an artillery platform, that's FINE by me, but that's not what the game is about and we both know it... and no ability 'wins the game for you', you have to work with it like you have to work with everything else.

 

 Actually I'm pretty sure pandemonium was being sarcastic as that saying is a running gag in the warframe community, I could be wrong however  but I thought I'd let you know.

[RealPandemonium]

 Actually I'm pretty sure pandemonium was being sarcastic as that saying is a running gag in the warframe community, I could be wrong however  but I thought I'd let you know.

A running gag that passes for actual feedback in these forums!  Most people don't even take notice of this phenomenon, much less express concern.

[WolvenEdge]

 Actually I'm pretty sure pandemonium was being sarcastic as that saying is a running gag in the warframe community, I could be wrong however  but I thought I'd let you know.

 

I'm quite certain he was being sarcastic... I simply clarified his point by giving well-meant contention. One learns through adversity, as their point either breaks or becomes stronger. I test both my own and his warrants, as sarcastic as they may be, in the attempt to get him to further clarify his point, as well as letting me present a point of my own in the same post.

 

Venting my own frustration on the same matter had nothing to do with it. Nope! Nothing at all!

[Stratego89]

There is so much denial in this thread it's crazy. Excalibur is broken. Super Jump is absolutely useless, the worst skill in the game. The new changes sound great, but could be terrible- how about we wait until they happen before complaining about something that you have no reason whatsoever to assume will be bad, and every reason to assume to be good?

[Halisi]

A running gag that passes for actual feedback in these forums!  Most people don't even take notice of this phenomenon, much less express concern.

 

 

I'm quite certain he was being sarcastic... I simply clarified his point by giving well-meant contention. One learns through adversity, as their point either breaks or becomes stronger. I test both my own and his warrants, as sarcastic as they may be, in the attempt to get him to further clarify his point, as well as letting me present a point of my own in the same post.

 

Venting my own frustration on the same matter had nothing to do with it. Nope! Nothing at all!

 

 Ok then I'm glad everything got cleared up. Also I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way pandemonium.

[RealPandemonium]

I'm quite certain he was being sarcastic... I simply clarified his point by giving well-meant contention. One learns through adversity, as their point either breaks or becomes stronger. I test both my own and his warrants, as sarcastic as they may be, in the attempt to get him to further clarify his point, as well as letting me present a point of my own in the same post.

 

Venting my own frustration on the same matter had nothing to do with it. Nope! Nothing at all!

I agree with the sentiments of your reply whole-heartedly but I do not think that the current state of the game reflects them.  A warframe's merit in the "common wisdom" correlates directly to how well it trivializes gameplay.  Abilities like Excalibur's, which complement gun/swordplay while providing potent but falliable defensive capabilities, are marginalized because they are not considered  "a complete passage" because they don't reliable kill or shut down all enemies.  From the start Excalibur has been a good frame to learn the game with because you have to learn fundamentals to excel with him.  I wonder if the remade Excalibur will not allow the player to abuse gimmicks to coast through missions.  

[fatpig84]

Does RB have a new soft LOS system instead of the silly current LOS system ?

Until DE can confirm that I will just be meh, to say the least.

 

 

Any changes are nice, but any "new versions" of Excal will never be as strong as Excal 1.5 or the matter as fun (when his RJ had directional aiming, yes if you super jump and cast RJ, Javelin will fly out from Excal and smash into the enemies faces if you timed it right and RB had no LOS and a stealth damage modifier that works properly). Period.

Edited April 14, 2015 by fatpig84

[WolvenEdge]

But they DON'T provide potent abilities. They are too falliable to actually DO anything once you get past Saturn, and you become a gun platform rather than using his abilities for utility... except Radial Blind, which we have all agreed is pretty much the only thing he has left, as not even the trusty Slash Dash allows you the utility it once did. Have you ever tried dashing through a crowd of enemies? It doesn't really work... anything that isn't insta-killed blocks your path and doesn't let you escape/move to a better position. His theme lies on the wayside as does anything that makes him unique. So he steps up his game.

I'm of the firm belief that no frame should just be considered the 'tutorial frame'. With work, time, and resources, EVERY frame should be viable for sticking with, mastering inside and out. In the previous example, becoming one with. And that means having a skillset that has unique elements to everything... and not having abilities that other mechanics of the game already do better.

 

Trivializing gameplay would be making anything the enemy does ineffective, and making the Tenno less than what they are because all you ever do is destroy a horde of wimps. They've fixed that... maybe too well, with the ever-frustrating Nullifier Units and their friends the ospreys that fire death-balls, the lovely-yet-harsh Manics that are capable of one-shotting you with bleed or tackle regardless of what you try to do to stop them (blocking? Nope. Dodging? Only sometimes. Abilities? ... he has Dispell Sure, you can kill him, but a fair portion of the time he's just going to tear you to shreds and waltz off laughing) unless you have ridiculous amounts of health and armor... and sometimes he'll let a wimpier frame go for no reason at all other than trying to shame you. I get what they're trying to do, I agree with the sentiment... but the execution needs some work.

 

I play solo because I love the fast-paced strategy of keeping up with the destruction around you, of dodging and deflecting bullets back at the aggressors, of dividing their ranks and tearing them apart from strategic choice and outright savagery. I love the stealth, that feeling when there's a Warden right around the corner, and you don't know if you can kill it fast enough to keep the alarm from being triggered. The feeling when I plunge daggers into their kidneys from behind, or rend them in half with a polearm or sword before they even knew I was there.

 

I mean, Excalibur and Ash, in that order, are my favorite frames.

Excalibur for the theme of the Sword, and the general utility he's meant to represent, the First Frame, the one that first harnessed the power of the Void and wielded it as a sharp edge to rend his foes as an eyeless, energy-spurting living nightmare of metal, stealth and fury. Hurling himself from the shadows and leaving all in his wake bleeding and filled with fear.

 

Ash because he fades into the world around him. Unlike Excalibur, who flies into the battlefield, using the shadows as a means to an end... Ash uses the shadows as both means AND end. They don't even know what hit them, left with vital points torn asunder, unable to even call for help. I just... don't like Bladestorm much... overkill. I get the idea of doing finisher damage to enemies in a flurry of teleports, but I'd like to have some input in where I'm going, who I tear to ribbons, and where I end up as a result.

 

The lore casts the Tenno as highly feared and mysterious beings, that are rarely seen and leave little but blood and scrap metal in their wake as they pursue their objectives with honor, always striving to become better, for there are foes even THEY fear.

How has the general community played them as? ... Well... coptering, metagaming psychopaths who care nothing for the role they're playing... we got the MMO crowd, focused on math and invulnerability frames rather than the world that DE has so lovingly crafted for us to escape to.

 

TL;DR

You were never meant to coast. I agree with you fully. You were never meant to be outdated and left with abilities that are done just as well if not better by things EVERY frame can do either.

[RealPandemonium]

But they DON'T provide potent abilities. They are too falliable to actually DO anything once you get past Saturn, and you become a gun platform rather than using his abilities for utility... except Radial Blind, which we have all agreed is pretty much the only thing he has left, as not even the trusty Slash Dash allows you the utility it once did. Have you ever tried dashing through a crowd of enemies? It doesn't really work... anything that isn't insta-killed blocks your path and doesn't let you escape/move to a better position. His theme lies on the wayside as does anything that makes him unique. So he steps up his game.

I'm of the firm belief that no frame should just be considered the 'tutorial frame'. With work, time, and resources, EVERY frame should be viable for sticking with, mastering inside and out. In the previous example, becoming one with. And that means having a skillset that has unique elements to everything... and not having abilities that other mechanics of the game already do better.

 

Trivializing gameplay would be making anything the enemy does ineffective, and making the Tenno less than what they are because all you ever do is destroy a horde of wimps. They've fixed that... maybe too well, with the ever-frustrating Nullifier Units and their friends the ospreys that fire death-balls, the lovely-yet-harsh Manics that are capable of one-shotting you with bleed or tackle regardless of what you try to do to stop them (blocking? Nope. Dodging? Only sometimes. Abilities? ... he has Dispell Sure, you can kill him, but a fair portion of the time he's just going to tear you to shreds and waltz off laughing) unless you have ridiculous amounts of health and armor... and sometimes he'll let a wimpier frame go for no reason at all other than trying to shame you. I get what they're trying to do, I agree with the sentiment... but the execution needs some work.

 

I play solo because I love the fast-paced strategy of keeping up with the destruction around you, of dodging and deflecting bullets back at the aggressors, of dividing their ranks and tearing them apart from strategic choice and outright savagery. I love the stealth, that feeling when there's a Warden right around the corner, and you don't know if you can kill it fast enough to keep the alarm from being triggered. The feeling when I plunge daggers into their kidneys from behind, or rend them in half with a polearm or sword before they even knew I was there.

 

I mean, Excalibur and Ash, in that order, are my favorite frames.

Excalibur for the theme of the Sword, and the general utility he's meant to represent, the First Frame, the one that first harnessed the power of the Void and wielded it as a sharp edge to rend his foes as an eyeless, energy-spurting living nightmare of metal, stealth and fury. Hurling himself from the shadows and leaving all in his wake bleeding and filled with fear.

 

Ash because he fades into the world around him. Unlike Excalibur, who flies into the battlefield, using the shadows as a means to an end... Ash uses the shadows as both means AND end. They don't even know what hit them, left with vital points torn asunder, unable to even call for help. I just... don't like Bladestorm much... overkill. I get the idea of doing finisher damage to enemies in a flurry of teleports, but I'd like to have some input in where I'm going, who I tear to ribbons, and where I end up as a result.

 

The lore casts the Tenno as highly feared and mysterious beings, that are rarely seen and leave little but blood and scrap metal in their wake as they pursue their objectives with honor, always striving to become better, for there are foes even THEY fear.

How has the general community played them as? ... Well... coptering, metagaming psychopaths who care nothing for the role they're playing... we got the MMO crowd, focused on math and invulnerability frames rather than the world that DE has so lovingly crafted for us to escape to.

 

TL;DR

You were never meant to coast. I agree with you fully. You were never meant to be outdated and left with abilities that are done just as well if not better by things EVERY frame can do either.

An inspiring post.  However, I would much rather bring the other frames low and re-set the bar than to bring Excal into the "afk farming" club.  Old RB could neuter whole map tiles indefinitely, which put him in that category.  By comparison the newer one definitely does its job if you position correctly but won't if you don't.  At the same time, the old RJ allowed for headshots and, with some tweaks (damaging ragdoll, anyone?) would have had excellent CC and damage potential as well, while still requiring opportunism and good positioning.  Instead DE took the easy way out and made it a radial nuke, and then made it a radial nuke but worse.  

[WolvenEdge]

An inspiring post.  However, I would much rather bring the other frames low and re-set the bar than to bring Excal into the "afk farming" club.  Old RB could neuter whole map tiles indefinitely, which put him in that category.  By comparison the newer one definitely does its job if you position correctly but won't if you don't.  At the same time, the old RJ allowed for headshots and, with some tweaks (damaging ragdoll, anyone?) would have had excellent CC and damage potential as well, while still requiring opportunism and good positioning.  Instead DE took the easy way out and made it a radial nuke, and then made it a radial nuke but worse.  

 

And they are making an attempt at fixing it, no? And by making it so that Blind and Javelin don't require Jump as an accessory anymore as well, which is quite the boon.

Slash Dash will still likely be a mobility tool, but will have better enemy tracking, which will enable it to step through the crowds that always blocked the purpose it has once the damage it deals falls off. It can be used for utility again, without being stopped dead in the water by the first one who has the audacity to have even a single hit point left after I slash-dash into it... really, the amount of times I've done that, my Excalibur's face should have the permanent imprint of Grineer chest-plate. Ow.

Radial Blind is staying, though will still have limited range and effect, allowing you to disable a small area for a short time... and maybe allowing you to get rid of a few of them by taking advantage of their stunned state.

Radial Javelin... well, even they're not quite sure what they're going to do with that one.

And the new ability we don't even have a name for yet, all we know is that Excalibur is getting his own new energy blade(s) with a stance, and that you can Getsuga Tenshou with them... and that they're trying really hard not to make it the same as Hysteria.

We don't know if it will have crowd control, or stun, or throw, or just deal a lot of damage with a forced proc, or just force procs. They could do anything and we could be disappointed or happily surprised. I'm willing to hope for the latter instead of pining over how Excalibur was 'in the old days'.

 

Much as I'd like to set the bar a bit lower for the frames, I'm watching DE do the opposite; set the bar higher for enemies. It amounts to a similar effect, with the added bonus of bone-chilling laughter and glowing orbs that you can't shoot or stealth through. TwT I hope they get it set up right, and there will be some semblance of balance by the time this is done. But if we the players don't step up our GAME, instead of stepping up our '420noscopeGETGUDrhinoprimenovaboltorprime3hrt4srvival', then that balance will be a less than pleasant surprise for many of us.

 

EDIT; admission. TwT

And yes, outside of the game, I do meta a bit. In-game? I prefer to stay in character... and after some experience with even real life, people tend to meta and take advantage of the systems they find. I set myself up to do just that; I discovered systems in the game, and tested them in the game, and used them to increase my strength in the game.

Doesn't mean I can't learn the strengths and weaknesses of my abilities... I even benefit from it. though once outside of roleplay, I don't exactly shy away from looking at the numbers either... especially if those numbers allow me to give better balance feedback when I try.

Edited April 14, 2015 by WolvenEdge

[Circle_of_Psi]

why has this topic not been locked?

[WolvenEdge]

Because we're too busy discussing it and topics related to it? :P

[ragingdeamon]

I see some the argument "slash dash as a mobility tool" is just posted and doesn't have any backup. here, let me help. 

it can work. when I played him I mainly used that to go behind enemies and shoot them while they were turning. gave me 2 seconds of a breather. and yes, I know that coptering is better at that, since you can kill the enemies entierly while using coptering while slash dash just puts you behind them. at least we know what the stalker does to teleport behind us.

[GhostMelody]

DE do yo thang and ignore OP and his followers until update on Excalibur drops

People who complain before there is a problem don't deserve to be heard IMO.

Btw they said they are addin in a new jump mechanic after taking super jump out, how the hell are they going to ruin Excalibur

Open yo eyes its a BUFF. You get a ricochet effect on slash dash now as well as a new pseudo-melee-range capability with his ult, Jesus I swear all y'all do on the forum is complain about arbitrary crap for no reason sometimes

Nothing has been set in stone yet nor do you know much about what he will be, but you already pre-purchased your seats on the complaint band-wagon

Sheesh

[BattledOne]

10/10 would read again

[DSpite]

I would simply like to add that Super Jump never felt "Super".

 

If it had cost "trivial" Energy, allowed a long, shallow front flip - with possible a charge up time to get that extra distance - at very LONG distances, ie, distances even further then to where we can copter to now, and allowed Heavy Impact to also work on landing, then it would have felt "Super" and I would of used it like crazy. Especially if I could land on walls and slide down on them like we current get with normal jumps.

 

Straight up? In maps that are heavily populated with low ceilings? It's just Super Head Smash most of the time. It's kinda situational.

 

Having Super Jump turn into something that has nothing to do with jumping would make me sad.

Also, I really like swinging a Glaive. If the Ultimate keeps swapping it out for a Sword looking melee weapon I will be doubly sad.

 

I'm kinda hanging on to the old Excalibur-Glaive ideals of Dark Sector. Sad I know.

 

---

 

Below Image :

 

My personal idea of "fun time". This was an infested survival mission level 35-38. I did have great support as everyone played their Frames well, and allowed me to go even more crazy Glaive swinging then I normally would have. I think a Trinity kept me in Over-Shields the entire time (I had Dark Blue shields, so whatever that was). Good times.

 

Edited April 14, 2015 by DSpite

[Archangelzz]

 Please don't do this, you're going to take away everything that makes excalibur fun! Your revamp is going to remove any reliable source of movement from excal and replace a source of utility with a 4th that is made redundant by your changes to slash dash.

 

 I'm sick of people claiming that excal is useless especially when referring to super jump. Nothing compares to the stability that this power provides. When there is enough air clearance to use it I essentially get a few free shots while I'm in the air, nothing shoots at me, and I get both perks while also getting to easily relocate to a new position. It's also great when you need to get to a high place right now.

 

 While you guys are always saying parkour 2.0 will make this power negligible I know that nothing will allow you to reach the same heights in the same amount of time so fluidly without the use of powers. Stop saying that movement powers will become useless. These powers provide instant far reaching movement there will still be times where you need that utility especially with the increasing verticality and platforming requirements of the tilesets. How high do you guys really expect charged jumps to go? Besides neither charged jumps nor directional melee make you invisible allowing you to move to another location safely under heavy gunfire.

 

 How about instead of removing a fun and useful ability you make it better. How about we rename it mobility and make it so that if you use it in the air you move 75% of the powers jumping distance in whatever direction you're aiming in addition to the normal effect. See? That is a much simpler (I'm sure of it) change than making a whole new power similar to hysteria.

 

 This would have the same invisibility effect as the normal usage and since it moves in a more horizontal way it would be more useful in tight corridors where this type of maneuver would save your life for just 10 energy you can also extend it with directional melee. Let's not forget the increased awareness this power provides for radial blind/javelin.

 

 Now about slash dash I like the idea of it having better combat effectiveness but not if it comes at the cost of the powers mobility. I love using this power to get right in the middle of a group of enemies so I can proceed to hack them to pieces, even better when I can use it to get into the middle of a nullifier shield to quickly disperse the pesky enemy. Why couldn't you just add the ability for it to hit enemies it comes in contact with 5 times at max rank?

 

 But while we're on the subject of Excalibur changes, Scott really? You really think radial javelin and blind do the same thing? No! Radial javelin is for when you want to spread damage to a large amount of enemies leaving them weakened and open to attack, in conjunction with the augment those enemies are now easy pickings. On a healthy sized group of enemies I can get around 40% bonus melee damage for ~22sec. Radial blind is for those times where everything needs to stop attacking you right now so you can go about your business, it's more reliable as cc due to not having awareness restrictions..

 

 Excalibur is the king of melee and in the hands of a skilled player is extremely powerful with his unique blend of damage, mobility, cc, and mitigation. Please don't water him down just to please the people who can't be bothered with anything that they don't think is viable! 

 

*update* Edited for better clarity.

You do realize that they said you would be able to cancel slash dash simply by using melee right so you could still get into the middle of enemies that way. If you saw the archwing trailer were excalibur when into the balmorian and slaughtered those grineer well the nwe slash dash is basically going to be exactly that. Except that you can cancel the ability at anytime by using melee.

 

And Radial blind will be able to be used on the move so it makes it much better then how it is now.

 

As for super jump well I've been playing since day one of closed beta pretty much and the ability super jump predates wall running and all that, with the increasing ability added into the game with parkour and the fact that they are making a charged jump passive which works exactly like super jump which kind of makes the ability useless I mean don't get me wrong I like using the power, but this is fact it is becoming kind of useless.

 

And Radial Javlien which by the way the name should be changed since the power really has nothing to do with javliens

 

And his final ability will function very similarly to valkry's ult.

[VKhaun]

Yeah, DE shouldn't be pandering to this new generation of players who want abilities that play the game for you rather than being tools that help you change the way you play the game.

[Pacheon]

That talking about not adjusted and changed constants.

Why would you guys always cause such a mess?

It is a game, first of all. Get over it. This team is developing a multilingual and international game. Do you even realize how many people say A and others B and else C to Z? Did you ever experienced such a great mess of information and wishes about a single respective ingame feature, including frames, weapons, even tileset connections, and so on?

The changes have been made over and over again. Games do start as simple as possible. As someone mentioned already, Excalibur was the first frame being the best in mobility, where there wasn't any cool stylish ninja parkour action. Times changed the mechanics. New codes have been written. Parkour entered our realms - Excalibur was still good to go with it's skills. But consider checking the newest frames and their mobility skills (starting with vauban, ending with zephyr), we do know that Excalibur isn't the only one now being able to jump immense Heights. Also notice, since we got the new weapon attack and swing possibilities, were is the use of such skills? I was a zephyr freak, if it was the one for the fastest run and being damaged almost none. Now? Taking my polearms or staves (orthos prime, tipedo) and using that mobility instead for zero energy along the frames like mesa with her 95% dmg reduction or chroma with his freaking armor value.

I am not sad nor upset about changes, since I am not someone who still tries to see an apple with a worm inside it as a healthy apple without a worm.

You might have an issue, not getting used to new things. That is fine, but opening this thread wasn't a great move.

I would do the same on my game, if I am going to add a new animation/mobility mechanic, I would consider fitting any character to it and getting rid of "overrated" abilities and replacing them with new ones which will give a new perspective to play.

(please take note that this has been written on a tablet with 3 different languages activated. So, some wrong typos may occur. If you see one, catch it with a pokeball or whatever.)