The 'tenno Are Energy' Theory Is Busted

[arch111]

Should allready be a megathread.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

Should allready be a megathread.

I thought only mods were allowed to title things as 'megathread'?

[888888Zombies]

So the warframe suits are made out of those kids (like the one in the rhino codex) and we, cephalons or something, gets plugged into it?

[Xardis]

In Mirage's quest, at one point, Lotus says "She is smiling because she knows I am lying..." Energy, can't smile! Only flesh can! She also says something about the Mirage comforting her [Lotus] which means Tenno can talk.

What if energy is a beeing that can ocupy bodies? That undermines you whole point right?

 

So the warframe suits are made out of those kids (like the one in the rhino codex) and we, cephalons or something, gets plugged into it?

There is a diffrence, cephalons are AI. They were created, probaly by Sentients or they are Sentients themselves. Tenno evolved into that level of consciousness.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Xardis

[SilentMobius]

So the warframe suits are made out of those kids (like the one in the rhino codex) and we, cephalons or something, gets plugged into it?

Unlikely, we have word-of-god that the Tenno were human (and may still be). We have numerous statements of Tenno being physical beings and story hooks that rely of Tenno-with-full-physical-body. We have numerous statements that describe a Warframe as exo-armour, suits, second skin, hollow, etc. Inventing a third entity, a dummy-body that sits in every Warframe makes a mockery of the threat of the Zanuka plot, Mutalist plot, Infestation plot and etc, etc.

Most likely currently is Tenno are physical, their connection to the void gives then unpredictable super powers and Warframes can focus that power to a specific effect. Tenno can fit in any Warframe because the Warframe makes them fit either via biological modification or Void-spaxe deforming.

[helix.hex]

Unlikely, we have word-of-god that the Tenno were human (and may still be). We have numerous statements of Tenno being physical beings and story hooks that rely of Tenno-with-full-physical-body. We have numerous statements that describe a Warframe as exo-armour, suits, second skin, hollow, etc. Inventing a third entity, a dummy-body that sits in every Warframe makes a mockery of the threat of the Zanuka plot, Mutalist plot, Infestation plot and etc, etc.

Most likely currently is Tenno are physical, their connection to the void gives then unpredictable super powers and Warframes can focus that power to a specific effect. Tenno can fit in any Warframe because the Warframe makes them fit either via biological modification or Void-spaxe deforming.

ghost in the shell is what i am still running with.

 

EDIT: grammer

Edited August 14, 2015 by helix.hex

[Mak_Gohae]

Unlikely, we have word-of-god that the Tenno were human (and may still be). We have numerous statements of Tenno being physical beings and story hooks that rely of Tenno-with-full-physical-body. We have numerous statements that describe a Warframe as exo-armour, suits, second skin, hollow, etc. Inventing a third entity, a dummy-body that sits in every Warframe makes a mockery of the threat of the Zanuka plot, Mutalist plot, Infestation plot and etc, etc.

Most likely currently is Tenno are physical, their connection to the void gives then unpredictable super powers and Warframes can focus that power to a specific effect. Tenno can fit in any Warframe because the Warframe makes them fit either via biological modification or Void-spaxe deforming.

 

DE has retcon parts of the story several times which is why i do not like all this mystery horsing around they do with the story.

Some of the stuff that has been said could have been thrown out but since stuff is a mystery we wont know until they finally get to it by 2035.

 

So it's fun to speculate and create fun theories but there is absolutely no point is trying to follow anything as solid.

The story of Warframe is pretty much as empty as it was when there was only one stage and all enemy factions used the same guns.

[SilentMobius]

ghost in the shell is what i am still running with.

EDIT: grammer

Again, unlikely. Makes a mockery of the physical-organic-threat stories. Why are Alad Vs mutalist threats scary if our bodies are interchangeable? Why is Zanuka an abomination if we made, and can make new bodies?

DE have writern their plots for phyical-people-tenno.

DE has retcon parts of the story several times

Examples that aren't gun stats please? And tenno-as-champion-from-lol was long discarded before devstream 0 so that isn't one.

I see no retcons at all. Nor any need for them

Edited August 14, 2015 by SilentMobius

[helix.hex]

Again, unlikely. Makes a mockery of the physical-organic-threat stories. Why are Alad Vs mutalist threats scary if our bodies are interchangeable? Why is Zanuka an abomination if we made, and can make new bodies?

 

about the same as is in ghost in the shell

 

i couldnt find the whole scene but in this major was ^&*$: royally! and she is technically digital by now. 

 

 

also, you need to learn up about cyper punk.

[SilentMobius]

about the same as is in ghost in the shell

 

i couldnt find the whole scene but in this major was ^&*$: royally! and she is technically digital by now. 

 

also, you need to learn up about cyper punk.

 

No, GitS was about exploring new-found states of being, as all Cyberpunk is about the societal shock when technology overtakes a societies' speed of adaption.

 

In GitS you can't do a Frankenstein-analogue story, you can only (and they did) do a Frankenstein-subversion story. DE did not subvert the trope in the Zanuka storyline. 

 

I'm a big fan of Masamune Shirows work, but I prefer Appleseed to GitS as it addressed much more interesting societal philosophy, where as GitS didn't really approach anything in a new way, just rehashed earlier 80's cyberpunk (GitS manga started in 1989) though it did it beautifully. Hell I was running games of RTG's Cyberpunk 2013 RPG before the GitS Manga came out in Japan.

 

Warframe is much more "retrograde empire" or even "post-post-apocolyptic", more like Dune than GitS. We have millions of Tenno, each with tens of Warframes, based on templates thousands of years old. The societal impact of these things isn't "future shock" any more it's distant history.

 

So no, the base principles of Cyberpunk aren't a match for Warframe, and GitS follows those to a tee, subverting other story tropes (Like Frankenstein and body-horror) making an interesting story by taking the abnormal-to-the-viewer and showing the process of making them normative. Warframe has already established it's normal state and is re-using body-horror and Frankenstein-stories verbatim, with no subversion. Hence the threat and dramatic tension is negated if you suddenly decide the protagonist is effectively a ghost.

 

But man... I loved that theme, Origa and Yoko Kanno, man I used to play "Inner Universe" nigh on non-stop ("Mana du vortes, 

Aeria gloris...").

 

tl;dr: DE didn't make the Zanuka and Infested stories in the way that Shirow made the GitS stories, illustrating that our protagonist (The Tenno) is not like his (Kusanagi Motoko, ultimately a disembodied ghost).

Edited August 14, 2015 by SilentMobius

[helix.hex]

No, GitS was about exploring new-found states of being, as all Cyberpunk is about the societal shock when technology overtakes a societies speed of adaption.

 

In GitS you can't do a Frankenstein-analogue story, you can only (and they did) do a Frankenstein-subversion story. DE did not subvert the trope in the Zanuka storyline. 

 

I'm a big fan of Masamune Shirows work, but I prefer Appleseed to GitS as it addressed much more interesting societal philosophy, where as GitS didn't really approach anything in a new way, just rehashed earlier 80's cyberpunk (GitS manga started in 1989) though it did it beautifully. Hell I was running games of RTG's Cyberpunk 2013 RPG before the GitS Manga came out in Japan.

 

Warframe is much more "retrograde empire" or even "post-post-apocolyptic", more like Dune than GitS. We have millions of Tenno, each with tens of Warframes, based on templates thousands of years old. The societal impact of these things isn't "future shock" any more it's distant history.

 

So no, the base principles of Cyberpunk aren't a match for Warframe, and GitS follows those to a tee, subverting other story tropes (Like Frankenstein and body-horror) making an interesting story by taking the abnormal-to-the-viewer and showing the process of making them normative. Warframe has already established it's normal state and is re-using body-horror and Frankenstein-stories verbatim, with no subversion. Hence the threat and dramatic tension is negated if you suddenly decide the protagonist is effectively a ghost.

http://libraryschool.libguidescms.com/hiles_cyberpunk/idcp

 

i guess it is time for me to do this again;

 

one, zanuka project was something that needed to be fixed. think about it even if you are energy being and in a body then you can still feel pain; you are hook up to a body.

 

second i am not talking the story i am talking about the GENRE. cyberpunk has a grown and evolve just like AD&D did. the thing about is this when dealing with cybernetics nerves are needed for alot of function.

 

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Organian

 

the first time they ran into humans was on the enterprise in an episode where they introducted a silicon-based virus. they took over the two who were sick and in pain; they felt the pain themselves. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_Effect_(Star_Trek:_Enterprise).

 

now then. unlike the organian; tenno need machines to change bodies. if we cant leave our bodies then we are stuck for the ride-till something puts us out of misery.(sorry valkyr!).

 

if this doesnt end this argument then i am sorry to say you are the equivalent of a brick wall: dense.

Edited August 14, 2015 by helix.hex

[SilentMobius]

http://libraryschool.libguidescms.com/hiles_cyberpunk/idcp

 

i guess it is time for me to do this again;

 

one, zanuka project was something that needed to be fixed. think about it even if you are energy being and in a body then you can still feel pain; you are hook up to a body.

 

second i am not talking the story i am talking about the GENRE. cyberpunk has a grown and evolve just like AD&D did. the thing about is this when dealing with cybernetics nerves are needed for alot of function.

 

http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Organian

 

the first time they ran into humans was on the enterprise in an episode where they introducted a silicon-based virus. they took over the two who were sick and in pain; they felt the pain themselves. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_Effect_(Star_Trek:_Enterprise).

 

now then. unlike the organian; tenno need machines to change bodies. if we cant leave our bodies then we are stuck for the ride-till something puts us out of misery.(sorry valkyr!).

 

if this doesnt end this argument then i am sorry to say you are the equivalent of a brick wall: dense.

 

If you think what you are saying here in any way proves a point I'm afraid you are mistaken.

 

Firstly if you actually read the link you posted, the opinions presented there supports my statement that cyberpunk as a genre is about the societal reaction to tech (Cyber) outstripping societies ability to adapt (punk)

 

"dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change"

 

"cyberpunk setting will involve some kind of social anarchy or disorder, as well as the implementation of technology into the deep recesses of every-day life"

 

Secondly: I am talking about story, if you're not then it's a little difficult to refute my story-base statements as to why a GitS-style ghost-Tenno is unlikely given the story we have in Warframe.

 

> "tenno need machines to change bodies"

 

Citation needed because that looks like a whole lot of begging the question to me.

 

We are taunted many time about Zanuka, how many times is it suggested that the problem is that "ghosts" are trapped inside it? Don't bother looking the answer is 0. The repeated statement is blood, bones, bodies. Do you not think that _maybe_ the Lotus might mention if there were Tenno consciousnesses in there, something to recover? but no we get "monstrosity forged from the bodies of our fallen Tenno", "Too many Tenno have perished to make Alad's abomination", It's just bodies and tech, and golem-from-bodies is a common trope, plenty to incite a response from a protagonist, But this is only because of the emotional connection between a life and the one-permanent-body-we-have. As GitS explores many many times, once you can move from body to body, any emotional connection to a discarded corpse becomes vestigial and disconnected. this is because the body is no longer perceived as a fundamental part of your self identity.

 

In all of your examples (Trek, GitS, etc) the fact that the character are not-normally-bound-to-one-body is an axial point of the story, it's is mentioned all the way through to remind the viewer of the differences compared to the human condition.

 

In Warframe there is nothing like that, none of that essential deformation of the story to allow for that concept is present. No exposition, no commentary, no allowances at all. It's is a straight, Frankenstein or body-horror story.

 

So, in the example of Zanuka:

 

Alad-V kills Tenno and uses Tenno and Warframe parts to build Zanuka. Lotus call this an "abomination", however if Tenno are "ghosts" then the physical remains of a Tenno aren't anything other than tech and clone bits, they are not the Tenno. The killing would be the crime, not the construction of this Frankenstein's monster. But that is not how the crime is presented to us hence he threat and emotional timbre of the story is muted and confused.

 

So as I said, regardless of whatever "Tenno are trapped in the dummy plug body that is never mentioned anywhere" you are constructing from whole cloth, the drama and style of the story is one that required Tenno-in-their-one-physical-body.

 

If you don't see this yet (regardless of weather you agree or not) then perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree, if you resorting to insults it suggests you have very little more that is useful to say.

Edited August 14, 2015 by SilentMobius

[Morec0]

Examples that aren't gun stats please? And tenno-as-champion-from-lol was long discarded before devstream 0 so that isn't one.

I see no retcons at all. Nor any need for them

 

He'll site that the Infested were re-released by the Grineer rather than just always having been around, though I'd argue that it's still in-line with what we had before. Less retcon and more a detailed explanation of how things came about - something of a narrative frame shift. If the Grineer were experimenting with Infested then it's possible some Corpus might too - specifically Alad V, who was directly cited as having used the Infestation as a shield for his Jupiter research labs during The Hunt For Alad V.

 

So you have both sides working on the projects Lotus (in her own memory-lapsed mind) had thought long-dead, reawakening the threat and allowing it to escape out.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Morec0

[SilentMobius]

He'll site that the Infested were re-released by the Grineer rather than just always having been around, though I'd argue that it's still in-line with what we had before. Less retcon and more a detailed explanation of how things came about - something of a narrative frame shift. If the Grineer were experimenting with Infested then it's possible some Corpus might too - specifically Alad V, who was directly cited as having used the Infestation as a shield for his Jupiter research labs during The Hunt For Alad V.

 

So you have both sides working on the projects Lotus (in her own memory-lapsed mind) had thought long-dead, reawakening the threat and allowing it to escape out.

 

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about all that sillyness. People who don't understand the MMO convention of level=time and that release-order doesn't imply canon-in-world-time-order. Also that going from no-data to data isn't a retcon.

 

Well, good, I was kind of hoping for an actual example of a retcon, but on the flipside I'm also quite happy that my current opinion (there have been none) is accurate.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

So the warframe suits are made out of those kids (like the one in the rhino codex) and we, cephalons or something, gets plugged into it?

No... i highly doubt that.

[Xardis]

We meet again SilentMoius. You see that idea I presented in my own post isnt only my own. You state that there is not mentining as you call it "body-plugs" but there is not need to. Why mention something obvius?

 

Ghost in a Shell is nice at its core but for now it is too advanced. We in Warframe are not at that stage  that we can discard phisicality so easly. We as Tenno cant experince VR. Simulation we can because is phisical simulation. To experience VR we need to evolve. It will make us more like cephelons and Sentients. As for now we can have our minds stored on energy but we can only interact an phisical plane.

 

You also make no comment when someone mentions already existing energy beings like Cephelons and Janus (and almost certainly Sentients and Lotus). If they exist concept of Tenno being also energy based is not far off. When you face this you ignore it coz this does not fit your story.

 

I dont agree with helix.hex using ad homonim's coz its counterproductive and proves that he has nothing more to say. Discussion isnt a battlefield where you can use all force if necesery. You have to have style if you want to persuade someone. Even if you make a point it doesnt count if you insult oposing party. It makes you less credible.

[Gryphticon]

Tenno are not energy, they are humans who produce void energy due to exposure to the void.

They aren't infested either since there is no hint in the game of that being true. When infested bosses say that Tenno are their flesh, why would they still attempt to infect them? So it means that they're the same in the sense that they were created by the Orokin.

[SilentMobius]

You also make no comment when someone mentions already existing energy beings like Cephelons and Janus (and almost certainly Sentients and Lotus). If they exist concept of Tenno being also energy based is not far off. When you face this you ignore it coz this does not fit your story.

 

I didn't address these things because they're not relevant (and I find reading your posts difficult, I assume English isn't your first language?)

Whether Cephalons and Sentients end up being hard AI (We currently don't know) the existence of ancillary characters displaying a feature doesn't alter the nature of a story directed at the protagonist. Neither does it change the expectation of exposition on story-critical elements when they are tested in conflict.

 

In the Zanuka, Infestation, Mutalist, Mirage and Chroma stories _if_ a Tenno were anything other than physical person-in-an-advanced suit it would have been mentioned or would have been apparent from the dialogue, because it was immediately relevant to the threat type imposed.

 

Not to mention that Simaris compares us to a Cephalon favorably, the immediate inference being that we are not such an entity.

[Xardis]

Not to mention that Simaris compares us to a Cephalon favorably, the immediate inference being that we are not such an entity.

Exacly my point, if we were, things would be mych easier. Why have Ordis when we are more advanced than him?

 

Cephelons are not able to use frames coz they were created diffrently. Tenno were designed so Sentients couldnt control them. Since then Tenno evolved into higher state of consciousness allowning to switch bodies. Mirage, Limbo and Chroma didnt had that ability because it was before this advancement. It happened far later, when Lotus woke Tenno up from cryosleep.

 

Yes, English is not my first language. You could have deduced it from the source of my idea that I posted.

 

My argument is very relevent. If there were trains and you walked along tracks you would not think that the noise behind you is a car. Same here. If Energy beings exist you can assume that if you met something similar it can be one. You out right ban my idea blaming it on unclear dialogue formations when I only state that yours is in my opinion less likely.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Xardis

[EmptyDevil]

I still think the Tenno are humans that radiate Void energy. They are possibly in the same state of existence that Vor is in, not a ghost of energy but a corporeal form.

 

The Warframes are likely some kind of refined Technocyte-based suit that merges with the host but does not infest. I'd say they are very similar to Ironman's Endo-Sym armor for an example. A combination of tech and biology with sentience but no intelligence.

 

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Man_Armor_Model_51

[SilentMobius]

You out right ban my idea blaming it on unclear dialogue formations when I only state that yours is in my opinion less likely.

 

Firstly I'm not "banning" anything, I sometimes find your posts difficult to parse, that is my problem. As a result I may ignore a point until I have the time and willpower to understand everything said so I can form a sensible reply

 

Cephelons are not able to use frames coz they were created diffrently. Tenno were designed so Sentients couldnt control them. Since then Tenno evolved into higher state of consciousness allowning to switch bodies. Mirage, Limbo and Chroma didnt had that ability because it was before this advancement. It happened far later, when Lotus woke Tenno up from cryosleep.

 

This is all rampant speculation, with very little to support it. We have as-close-to-explicit-as-we-get statements that the Tenno themselves (whatever they are) are the source of the Void energy that powers the frames, nothing other than a Tenno (And whatever the Stalker is, And perhaps special infested material) can use a Warframe.

 

My argument is very relevent. If there were trains and you walked along tracks you would not think that the noise behind you is a car. Same here. If Energy beings exist you can assume that if you met something similar it can be one. You out right ban my idea blaming it on unclear dialogue formations when I only state that yours is in my opinion less likely.

 

You are looking at this form the perspective of in world data. I am talking about the story:

 

E.G: If you are reading a story about an undefined supernatural being and during the story there is no mention at all of hunger or the desire for blood, or even stoic self-control _even_ during scenes involving accidents, combat and general bloodshed. Even if there are Vampires known to exist in the setting the reader should not be making the assumption that the protagonist is a Vampire. Because the story has not been written to allow for that possibility.

 

EG: You can identify a protagonist who is a soldier by the manner they react or are reacted to in the story. You can tell if the author is trying to convey that the character is a soldier but the situations the author puts the character in.

 

EG: If characters do not react in a notable manner to the face of the protagonist (even those who the protagonist is meeting for the first time) then the assumption is that the protagonist is not horribly deformed. If the protagonist was horribly deformed you-the-reader would want an explanation as to why the fact hadn't turned up earlier.

 

Protagonists with deviations from the physical-human norm make changes in the shape of a story when drama presses up against the bounds of human experience.

 

Same in Warframe, The story of Zanuka, Infestation, Mirage, Limbo, Mutalist empire are all conspicuous with their absence of anything related to Tenno non-physicality or the third-entity-dummy-body principle. If were a true representation of the Tenno condition.

 

Within the story, the evidence may be scant but like an inverse Chekhovs' gun ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsGun ) you can tell what a character is not by noting what was not included in the story when it would be expected to be present.

Edited August 14, 2015 by SilentMobius

[SilentMobius]

I still think the Tenno are humans that radiate Void energy. They are possibly in the same state of existence that Vor is in, not a ghost of energy but a corporeal form.

 

The Warframes are likely some kind of refined Technocyte-based suit that merges with the host but does not infest. I'd say they are very similar to Ironman's Endo-Sym armor for an example. A combination of tech and biology with sentience but no intelligence.

 

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Man_Armor_Model_51

 

I would agree that everything we know so far points to this kind of model for the Tenno-Warframe relationship.

 

I wonder how long we'll have to wait for lead-ins to the U18 reveal.

[EmptyDevil]

I would agree that everything we know so far points to this kind of model for the Tenno-Warframe relationship.

 

I wonder how long we'll have to wait for lead-ins to the U18 reveal.

 

I'm assuming it'll be before the end of the year definitely. We'll probably get an idea once we know all of what DE plans to include in U18.

[Xardis]

This is all rampant speculation, with very little to support it.

Yes, its speculation at that point. It exists to fill the holes. We have very little info about anything, realy. It does not need direct support at that stage. Not yet anyway. It has indirect support for the rest of the theory.

Same in Warframe, The story of Zanuka, Infestation, Mirage, Limbo, Mutalist empire are all conspicuous with their absence of anything related to Tenno non-physicality or the third-entity-dummy-body principle. If were a true representation of the Tenno condition.

Other factions cant know about Tenno being immaterial by nature. If they kill a frame there is a body inside and they cant distinguish frames systems from systems that allow Tenno acces to the body. They dont know if they even should look for it so how would they know for what they should look at. Only Lotus, Ordis and Sindicates know that.

 

As for U18, I think we will get some more info in 17.5-17.6. It would be consistant with how DE usualy does reveals.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Xardis

[SilentMobius]

Yes, its speculation at that point. It exists to fill the holes. We have very little info about anything, realy. It does not need direct support at that stage. Not yet anyway. It has indirect support for the rest of the theory.

Other factions cant know about Tenno being immaterial by nature. If they kill a frame there is a body inside and they cant distinguish frames systems from systems that allow Tenno acces to the body. They dont know if they even should look for it so how would they know for what they should look at. Only Lotus, Ordis and Sindicates know that.

 

As for U18, I think we will get some more info in 17.5-17.6. It would be consistant with how DE usualy does reveals.

 

Alad V is the most knowledgeable non-Tenno non-Orokin on the Topic of Warframes. He has killed/dissected/tortured enough Tenno, become one with the infested hive-mind and developed a Tenno control collar it is highly unlikely that he wouldn't know such a thing if it were true. Vor believed he knew enough about Tenno by using a purchased Corpus ascaris, the idea that Alad V wouldn't know what Vor found out is ... not credible.

 

Also, even if he didn't, it would be expected for the Lotus to mention something related to it when we are being taunted in a manner that obviously would not be relevant if "Tenno" were not a physical entity.

 

E.G.

 

> Alad V: Oh Tenno, are you worried you'll be left out? Look, I've been working on something, hmm, special. You can too can be- one with us.

 

> Lotus: Do not be alarmed Tenno, If your flesh and Warframe become corrupted, I can dispatch Other Tenno to recover your consciousness.

Or

> Lotus: Alad V does not understand your true nature Tenno, take him out

etc etc.

 

The threat of infection is empty, and yet it passes again and again with no comment.

 

I'll say again, DE would not write dialogue in the way if it had ghost Tenno in mind.

Edited August 14, 2015 by SilentMobius