The 'tenno Are Energy' Theory Is Busted

[Morec0]

< snip >

 

But this would assume the Tenno consciousness can just up-sticks and leave it's body (read: Warframe) whenever it wants, which I disagree with. The fact that Mirage couldn't just leave her Warframe when it was captured could support that.

 

I say there needs to be a viable host unit around, something not easily - or possibly possible - to reproduce in any non-Warframe way given the state of technology. Nor do I think you account for the link between Tenno and Warframe; I've said it a hundred times, but I don't believe the Warframes are JUST suits of armor to the Tenno, there's a deeper connection between the two that might extent to the metal level. If the Warframe became corrupted it's possible the Tenno inside would be lost to that as well.

 

But I could be wrong and I'll be happy knowing whatever we get.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Morec0

[Xardis]

Also, even if he didn't, it would be expected for the Lotus to mention something related to it when we are being taunted in a manner that obviously would not be relevant if "Tenno" were not a physical entity.

 

> Alad V: Oh Tenno, are you worried you'll be left out? Look, I've been working on something, hmm, special. You can too can be- one with us.

 

> Lotus: Do not be alarmed Tenno, If your flesh and Warframe become corrupted, I can dispatch Other Tenno to recover your consciousness.

Or

> Lotus: Alad V does not understand your true nature Tenno, take him out

etc etc.

The nature of Tenno are irrelevent in that kind of situations. There is still treat of pain, losing frame and dying. Its just not death of your mind. If frames didnt have the ability of transmiting all informaions from body to the mind it would weaken the effectivness of Tenno in battle.

The threat of infection is empty, and yet it passes again and again with no comment.

Can you elaborate what do you mean by that? I didnt quite get what you want to say by that.

But this would assume the Tenno consciousness can just up-sticks and leave it's body (read: Warframe) whenever it wants, which I disagree with. The fact that Mirage couldn't just leave her Warframe when it was captured could support that.

 

I say there needs to be a viable host unit around, something not easily - or possibly possible - to reproduce in any non-Warframe way given the state of technology. Nor do I think you account for the link between Tenno and Warframe; I've said it a hundred times, but I don't believe the Warframes are JUST suits of armor to the Tenno, there's a deeper connection between the two that might extent to the metal level. If the Warframe became corrupted it's possible the Tenno inside would be lost to that as well.

 

But I could be wrong and I'll be happy knowing whatever we get.

Yes, it needs host. This host is Liset and frames. Mirage didnt have this ability in the first place IMHO. I think that Tenno developed that far after the old war, possibly even after they woke up from cryosleep.

 

As to corruption of frame we know of only one sourec capable of such thing, technocyte. Prohid says that infested are Tenno flesh too. It can be interpreted in many ways: that Tenno are humans (most obvious and pointless), it can illude to RhinoP codex or even to Mesa you fight in the quest for her. Its possible that Tenno can be killed that way, trapped, but I dont think its the case with other factions than Infested, and they dont even have higher purpose.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Xardis

[-IA-ShadowKill]

I Don't believe the tenno are energy and if people were to bring that argument they should use the fact that when you channel your warframe lights up from the inside but meh. I believe that whatever is under the suit, Human or Humanoid is made of flesh and bone. The theory to back up flesh and bone is the fact that you bleed out when down, when you receive a slash proc you bleed, when you cause de-compression on a corpus ship you lose oxygen and survivals you need air says that you're flesh, bone and blood and not energy. 

[Mak_Gohae]

Examples that aren't gun stats please? And tenno-as-champion-from-lol was long discarded before devstream 0 so that isn't one.

I see no retcons at all. Nor any need for them

 

J-3 Golem created by Orokin to fight Sentients line was erased. Now it's the standard DE vagueness with it being a weapon created to fight in the Old War. Which is funny because this was the first clue players got to the Sentients and what was actually happening in the past.

 

J-3 was changed to J-2k and then changed to Elephantis. But now he is coming back?

 

The Infested used to just be a normal part of the solar system and that got retcon just them just reappearing recently because of a Grinner lab accident.

 

Nef Anyo was just a dude that sold Warframes to anyone that would buy them and he was split into a space televangelist and another character known as the Sergeant.

 

Primes were supposed to be the original warframes made by the Orokin. Nova was a newly created frame created by the Tenno Council and that description got dropped and now it just describes the elements of her power. Just when DE decided to make her a Prime.

 

This is just off the top of my head, im sure there is more.

 

So, again, messing around and having fun with theories is cool but, outside of that, there is absolutely no point in claiming anything is solid evidence when DE leaves huge gaps while at the same time changing the places considered solid info.

 

Whoever is writing this thing must've went to the Lindeloff school of writing.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

J-3 was changed to J-2k and then changed to Elephantis. But now he is coming back?

Uh, no? J3 and J2k/Lephantis co-existed...

[Mak_Gohae]

Uh, no? J3 and J2k/Lephantis co-existed...

 

Nef and "The Sergeant" co-exist.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

Nef and "The Sergeant" co-exist.

Is 'The Sergeant' not just a placeholder until his rework is done?

[Mak_Gohae]

Is 'The Sergeant' not just a placeholder until his rework is done?

 

The point is that the character was turned into something else.

Whatever the characters become doesnt change the fact that there was a character change.

[Xardis]

Its not the same, J3 existed alongside Lephanis till they decided to have him reworked, it was 6 updates ago. J3 was intended as placeholder but never reached that state. Sergeant is a placeholder for Nef Onion and it is confirmed. As to lore the Sergeant is not canon and will never be recognised as existing ever. There is no point in debationg it here. In the instances like that DE can manipulate because its not a real issue. They did not thought it out. As per origins of Tenno it is clear that DE did not change anything exept Tenno Concil made none-existant to clear prime controvercy. In this case they could have done better. For example quest from simaris to reperpuse other frames components that would change whenever there was a shift in droptables. It would make more sence. And it would give the incentive to actualy give us quest replayability that we are waiting for 3 updates.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Xardis

[Morec0]

The point is that the character was turned into something else.

Whatever the characters become doesnt change the fact that there was a character change.

 

To be fair, all of Anyo's previous backstory could still be applied to him, rank of Sergeant or not, and I have no doubt we'll still have the Sergeant after Anyo makes his return.

 

Furthermore, J3's backstory WAS moved to Lephantis, but it has remained the same. J3 himself seems as though he's going to be something more recent, a creation of Alad's Mutalist Infestation.

 

And while the Infested do seem to have been released via a Grineer accident, it's not beyond the realm of possibility other's had a hand in similar technology, so it may have been more widespread and not fully of the Grineer's fault - after all, Alad was able to get his hands on Infested samples post-Gradivus, so unless he had favors within the Grineer somewhere the Corpus might have been experimenting with it as well (which would seemingly be confirmed by Frohd's statements of Alad using the Infestation as a cover).

 

And the idea of Nova being a "newly created" frame by a modern Tenno council has never really held up because we lack any evidence of this Tenno Council. It's not beyond possibility that Nova was a creation of an Orokin Era Tenno Council, one that would have had access to Orokin technologies in one form or another.

 

However, I find that in more recent times DE's finally really been able to peg down the lore. If I had to pinpoint a point where they started to actually take the lore seriously I'd say post-New Player Experience update, when quests were introduced. While things previous to that are tenuous at best (or at least subject to update/change, i.e. the removed J3 and the rework-pending Anyo), everything that comes after that has some room to be connected and theorized about on a more solid basis.

 

Or who knows? Maybe DE itself is just a conspiracy of da ebil Lotus :P

[Mak_Gohae]

Its not the same, J3 existed alongside Lephanis till they decided to have him reworked, it was 6 updates ago. J3 was intended as placeholder but never reached that state.

 

J2K was the replacement of J3 but he got kicked out to Derelict tileset in preparing to kick ALL the infested out of the the solar system. He has the same story the same dialogue minus one sentence. This is what happened. I was one of the many people complaining to keep J3 because we liked his fight.

 

Sergeant is a placeholder for Nef Onion and it is confirmed. As to lore the Sergeant is not canon and will never be recognised as existing ever. There is no point in debationg it here.

 

The Sergeant is what Nef used to be.

That's a fact.

 

I dont know what discussion is happening here because the events happened.

 

DE changed the story of these two characters.

 

In the instances like that DE can manipulate because its not a real issue. They did not thought it out. As per origins of Tenno it is clear that DE did not change anything exept Tenno Concil made none-existant to clear prime controvercy. In this case they could have done better. For example quest from simaris to reperpuse other frames components that would change whenever there was a shift in droptables. It would make more sence. And it would give the incentive to actualy give us quest replayability that we are waiting for 3 updates.

 

They changed something. That's the point of all of this. They have.

Dont care the reasons the point if they have changed stuff constantly.

Which means we dont know anything about the story until they bring actual info on it.

Which may be never cause everything is a mystery.

[Morec0]

Which means we dont know anything about the story until they bring actual info on it.

Which may be never cause everything is a mystery.

 

But when they DO that you and other disregard it for your conspiracy theories - yeah, talking about Natah.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

To be fair, all of Anyo's previous backstory could still be applied to him, rank of Sergeant or not, and I have no doubt we'll still have the Sergeant after Anyo makes his return.

In False Profit, didn't Nef say at one point, something like "I started out as a simple Corpus soldier"?

[Mak_Gohae]

To be fair, all of Anyo's previous backstory could still be applied to him, rank of Sergeant or not, and I have no doubt we'll still have the Sergeant after Anyo makes his return.

 

 

Not really. Old Anyo was a standard Corpus just making money. Specifically using Warframe to make money.

New Anyo is this fake religious dude that asks for money and uses it for something else.

 

Furthermore, J3's backstory WAS moved to Lephantis, but it has remained the same. J3 himself seems as though he's going to be something more recent, a creation of Alad's Mutalist Infestation.

 

They removed the line where it clearly stated J3 was created by the Orokin to fight the Sentient and it just says it's an weapon made to fight during the old war. So the sure info went into DE's Lindeloff vague-mode.

 

And while the Infested do seem to have been released via a Grineer accident, it's not beyond the realm of possibility other's had a hand in similar technology, so it may have been more widespread and not fully of the Grineer's fault - after all, Alad was able to get his hands on Infested samples post-Gradivus, so unless he had favors within the Grineer somewhere the Corpus might have been experimenting with it as well (which would seemingly be confirmed by Frohd's statements of Alad using the Infestation as a cover).

 

"Lotus" says that she has not seen the Infested since the old war.

So we either go with her having horrible information or DE did a bad retcon.

 

And the idea of Nova being a "newly created" frame by a modern Tenno council has never really held up because we lack any evidence of this Tenno Council. It's not beyond possibility that Nova was a creation of an Orokin Era Tenno Council, one that would have had access to Orokin technologies in one form or another.

 

The Tenno Council is a reference to the Founders, man.

And if there was an Orokin era council then why did DE feel the need to erase that part of Nova's profile?

 

The discussion of the newly created frames and what was going to happen with Primes and them happened on the board for a long time until DE decided to erase the reference of the council.

 

However, I find that in more recent times DE's finally really been able to peg down the lore. If I had to pinpoint a point where they started to actually take the lore seriously I'd say post-New Player Experience update, when quests were introduced. While things previous to that are tenuous at best (or at least subject to update/change, i.e. the removed J3 and the rework-pending Anyo), everything that comes after that has some room to be connected and theorized about on a more solid basis.

 

Or who knows? Maybe DE itself is just a conspiracy of da ebil Lotus :P

 

Nothing can be solid when they basically dont tell you anything while at the same time they are changing stuff.

They are giving you more words, sure, but those words have little to no info.

 

But when they DO that you and other disregard it for your conspiracy theories - yeah, talking about Natah.

 

What have i disregarded about the Natah quest?

 

Like i said above, the best thing to do with the lore of this game is to have some fun with it because there is nothing really concrete about most of the stuff we see. Creating a theory based on what we got is not disregarding anything, it's just expanding on the possibilities. Just like all the other theories people create.

[Jakcal]

Has the quote from Lech Kril where he says that we have flesh been posted already?

[KarmicRex]

Is this already the biggest topic from warframe forum history?

[SilentMobius]

J-3 Golem created by Orokin to fight Sentients line was erased. Now it's the standard DE vagueness with it being a weapon created to fight in the Old War. Which is funny because this was the first clue players got to the Sentients and what was actually happening in the past.

 

J-3 was changed to J-2k and then changed to Elephantis. But now he is coming back?

 

The Infested used to just be a normal part of the solar system and that got retcon just them just reappearing recently because of a Grinner lab accident.

 

Nef Anyo was just a dude that sold Warframes to anyone that would buy them and he was split into a space televangelist and another character known as the Sergeant.

 

Primes were supposed to be the original warframes made by the Orokin. Nova was a newly created frame created by the Tenno Council and that description got dropped and now it just describes the elements of her power. Just when DE decided to make her a Prime.

 

This is just off the top of my head, im sure there is more.

 

So, again, messing around and having fun with theories is cool but, outside of that, there is absolutely no point in claiming anything is solid evidence when DE leaves huge gaps while at the same time changing the places considered solid info.

 

Whoever is writing this thing must've went to the Lindeloff school of writing.

 

Yeah, none of that is a retcon. At best it's replacing placeholder entities, and filling in content gaps, at worst it's shuffling names

 

Perhaps you need to look up how MMO continuity works. Especially while in beta. But we've had this discussion before. You don't like DE's writing, you don't like it when vague backstory is filled in with detail, you don't think anything can be concluded.

 

So...

 

Why are you even in these threads again?

Edited August 15, 2015 by SilentMobius

[Morec0]

Is this already the biggest topic from warframe forum history?

 

Maybe if we added all the threads that talk about this same thing together, but we we're talking about this thread specifically Typhus has us beat by 100 or so pages.

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

Yeah, none of that is a retcon. At best it's replacing placeholder entities, and filling in content gaps, at worst it's shuffling names

 

Perhaps you need to look up how MMO continuity works. Especially while in beta. But we've had this discussion before. You don't like DE's writing, you don't like it when vague backstory is filled in with detail, you don't think anything can be concluded.

 

So...

 

Why are you even in these threads again?

I think we should all try to remember the beta tag yes. It's not just the gameplay in flux, it's the lore too. We are basically reading drafts as they are produced.

[Morec0]

I think we should all try to remember the beta tag yes. It's not just the gameplay in flux, it's the lore too. We are basically reading drafts as they are produced.

 

While this is true I'd argue the lore stabalizes as the bosses get their updates and unique personalities/fights while they also get an event or quest with story significance. That is to say once Nef Anyo gets his update that update will stabalize out his character and lore, same thing happened with Regor. And need we forget when Ambulas was Arn Etina?

 

Anyo is something of a wild card as he's the only boss to have had a seeming new character replace him, but once his fight is ready I imagine we'll see him make a return with a stabilized lore and the Sergeant will be removed entirely.

 

And for things like the Synthesis I think we can all agree those are pretty stable - if in need of better proof-readers.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

So which boss is coming first, Nef, or Kela?

[Mak_Gohae]

Yeah, none of that is a retcon. At best it's replacing placeholder entities, and filling in content gaps, at worst it's shuffling names

 

 

None of that is a retcon it just a bunch of things that are part of retcons.

Okay..........

 

Perhaps you need to look up how MMO continuity works. Especially while in beta.

 

If we are going to use the Beta argument then my point still stands.

There is no point is trying to say X and Y theory doesnt work based on a line of dialogue in the game cause..... it's beta and it will be ret- i mean, it's replacing placeholder entities, and filling in content gaps, at worst it's shuffling names

 

But we've had this discussion before.

 

I dont remember having a discussion about this.

 

You don't like DE's writing, you don't like it when vague backstory is filled in with detail, you don't think anything can be concluded.

 

The problem isnt just the vague backstory, the problem is that it's vague info while at the same time they are it's replacing placeholder entities, and filling in content gaps, at worst it's shuffling names. You cant conclude anything when everything is moving.

 

You cant say Tenno arent energy cause an old line of dialogue that still there that is as solid as jello.

The best thing to do is take the most current info when discussing this.

 

This is probably the reason the Lore sticky post ended up being deleted.

 

So...

 

Why are you even in these threads again?

 

Because it's a forum.

[Morec0]

None of that is a retcon it just a bunch of things that are part of retcons.

Okay..........

 

Replacing placeholders AREN'T retcons, mate. This is like saying Earth was retconned to a forest when originally it was just a bunch of trees, or that the Clone Commandos in Republic Commando were retconned into having different armor when the same basic armor used for them in early promotional material were changed into personalized looks.

 

The DIFFERENCE with that "old line of dialogue" you cite later is that it came after a system was in place that would hallmark a greater focus on DE's part around narrative focus. The quest system is set as it is and likely will remain - but moreover it hasn't been TOUCHED since that time, and until such a touchup hypothetically occurs it can be said to be solid enough to consider as a part of the story - after all, you don't look at other MMO narrative's and say "well, this is probably wrong because they may retcon it in the future", you take it for what it is at that time.

 

However, some things are significantly more placeholdery than others - such as Kela, Ambulas, Raptor, and potentially even the Sergeant's models.  Hell, remember when the Hyena "Pack" was jsut a small blue Jackal all by itself? That's not a retcon, that's finally updating a placeholder. Could the Sergeant have been turned into his own character separate from Nef Anyo? It's possible, but I think it unlikely; however I will concede only time will tell.

[Mak_Gohae]

Replacing placeholders AREN'T retcons, mate. This is like saying Earth was retconned to a forest when originally it was just a bunch of trees, or that the Clone Commandos in Republic Commando were retconned into having different armor when the same basic armor used for them in early promotional material were changed into personalized looks.

 

 

If you are going to beta argument, like i said above, then everything is place holder.

And this still proves my point.

You cant really say that Tenno arent definitely energy beings because a line of dialogue in the game that's old.

 

The DIFFERENCE with that "old line of dialogue" you cite later is that it came after a system was in place that would hallmark a greater focus on DE's part around narrative focus. The quest system is set as it is and likely will remain - but moreover it hasn't been TOUCHED since that time, and until such a touchup hypothetically occurs it can be said to be solid enough to consider as a part of the story - after all, you don't look at other MMO narrative's and say "well, this is probably wrong because they may retcon it in the future", you take it for what it is at that time.

 

So placeholder info is solid until the time that is changed.

Which is exactly like i said.

The difference here is that i see the change coming and give less value to the info.

 

However, some things are significantly more placeholdery than others - such as Kela, Ambulas, Raptor, and potentially even the Sergeant's models.  Hell, remember when the Hyena "Pack" was jsut a small blue Jackal all by itself? That's not a retcon, that's finally updating a placeholder. Could the Sergeant have been turned into his own character separate from Nef Anyo? It's possible, but I think it unlikely; however I will concede only time will tell.

 

We have zero info on the level of place holdery of anything in the game.

The most recent change means little until the next change.  Remember when Lephantis was J2k first?

And the Hyena Pack line just said they worked in packs. Working in packs had little to do with the boss fight that included one. Maybe this one was working alone, or the other one was being fixed. People created an issue that didnt exist. Why isnt this one working with a pack? Cause it's not.

[Xardis]

Remember when Lephantis was J2k first?

I wont even adress other things that you said coz they are irrelevnt to this dicussion. It should not take place here.

 

Lephantis was never J2K. It was a name for a new boss that leaked in the devstream one time. It was never changed from J2k to Lephantis coz it was never official J2k.

 

It WAS J2K for a while after his immediate release, when J3 was still a thing in the chart.

Update 10.0.4

Changes:

• The J-2000 Golem is now known as “Lephantis”.

Sorry, I wasnt playing since the very first day of the update so I assumed that it was from the start. But that changes nothing, placeholders cannot be the soure of lore, also most game mechanics not related to lore cannot be the source too (like enemy progression, gear like pizzas but not scaners, affinity/credit/resorce boosters, arcane enchancements and many more things like this haveing not impact at lore).

 

As for now J3-Golem from lore perspective doesnt exist and has no backstory that it had earlier. Its backstory is the backstory on Lephantis now. Placeholders that have no story around them cannot be considered as a source of info for lore.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Xardis