May 17Th Hot Topic: Constructive Feedback Vs Hyperbole

[DAwGi]

So the moral of this story is to wait for 4 hours and not read any posts before that.

[holdenagincourt]

I think Iron Skin provided him with a unique niche, as he was the only character that could counter Ancient Disruptors and Toxic Ancients...all the other characters have to run away (except maybe Loki and Ash in the case of Ancient Disruptors, but even they have to run from Toxic Ancients). He was the one frame that could lock down and hammer away at these enemies, which are generally the most dangerous in the game, doing the team a service by preventing them from being disrupted/poisoned and allowing them to safely cast powers and shoot from range.

 

(Sidenote: Can you ask the Design Table to look at Ancient Disruptors this week? Maybe taking a scaled percentage of energy/a flat amount rather than 100% of energy and shields while also messing up your UI? What use is there in using Flow or Redirection against Infested when these things exist?)

 

Anyway, decreasing duration or raising energy cost would have allowed him to retain some of these unique functions while also reflecting the true utility of the ability. It has to be said that players pretty much ran Iron Skin-centric builds because his other abilities are lackluster, to say the least. Rhino Charge is at least serviceable and has some utility for crossing gaps/making up distance, but Radial Blast doesn't do enough damage for the amount of energy it costs (it should match its description) and Rhino Stomp...well, most of the other ultis don't bother with disabling enemies for a short time, they just kill them immediately.

 

I don't think the Iron Skin change was unfair, but I do think that there are numerous other powers that pose issues if the base criterion for any nerf now is "well enemies can't damage you for a period of time so that power is OP." Invisibility, Smoke Screen, Overheat, Radial Blind Snow Globe, Link...they're all similar to or, in the case of Link, better than, pre-nerf Iron Skin. I think the whole package should be considered, and in that sense I think if Iron Skin is being reduced in effectiveness then his other abilities should be rebalanced or his speed should be increased.

Edited May 18, 2013 by holdenagincourt

[Mak_Gohae]

As has been discussed, Trinity's Link has the same effect and one could argue that Snow Globe is a ranged-Team version of Iron Skin with an added slow buff for units inside of it. 

 

 

Trinity with Blessing, Ash with Smoke Bomb, Loki with Invisibility, Saryn with Molt - I'd do some research before opening my mouth if I was you.   (Yes, half of those don't give you damage immunity, but they're just as good, since enemies can't target you while they're active.)

 

 

Thank you.  This is exactly what I was going to say.  Also I'd like to add Nyx and Volt.  Volt with his electric shield and Nyx with Absorb and even Chaos to an extent.  And Loki has Decoy as well. 

 

 

and saryn with molt to an extent also (since (I think) we're counting loki's decoy, and saryn has a similar mechanic)

 

Smoke Bomb doesnt stop Ash from Taking damage or other effects.

Snow Globe is stationary and while inside he can take damage and other effects.

Loki invisibility doesnt stop him from taking damage or other effects.

Saryn doesnt stop her from taking damage or other effects.

Nyx is stationary and cannot do anything else, Chaos doesnt stop her from taking damage or other effects, in fact, if you start attacking an enemy he will attack you.

Volt is stationary and only block attacks that hit the shield area.

 

You guys are really reach... oh wait... stretching the silliness here to complain over this.

The only people that ignore damage and can run around are Trinity, Ember, and Rhino.

[MusicGamer]

Here's my thinking:  I've had no experience with Iron Skin before, having not built the Frame before the update/reset, but I can tell that people are unhappy with the nerf down to only absorbing 20% of damage at the lowest mod level (if I've got the numbers straight in my head).

 

Perhaps bump that up just a tiny bit? 

 

Also, Rhino is supposed to be a tank, yes?  Yet he has no aggro abilities - which, if I've got my RPG mechanics right, is crucial to a tank's purpose. 

 

My suggestion is to add a taunt effect to the initial animation of the power's use so that a set number of enemies will focus on the user and nobody else for as long as the ability lasts.  

 

Oh, and maybe throw in a hotfix or something with the bug concerning the lack of knockback resistance.  And perhaps throw back in the Toxic and Disruptor resistance to the ability?

 

Of course, perhaps this is all probably stuff that's already been suggested by at least one other person in this thread.  But that's my two cents.

[holdenagincourt]

I also have to note that during certain defense runs, charge was the most OP killer of corpus. Full immunity to dmg? Really? Do we need a frame like that with some really good offense packed on?

 

Rhino Charge OP. Now I've seen it all.

 

You know it's just a Slash Dash with nerfed damage, nerfed range and no damage multiplier against Infested right?

[fishworshipper]

Smoke Bomb doesn't stop Ash from Taking damage or other effects.

Snow Globe is stationary and while inside he can take damage and other effects.

Loki invisibility doesn't stop him from taking damage or other effects.

Saryn doesn't stop her from taking damage or other effects.

Nyx is stationary and cannot do anything else, Chaos doesn't stop her from taking damage or other effects, in fact, if you start attacking an enemy he will attack you.

Volt is stationary and only block attacks that hit the shield area.

 

You guys are really reach... oh wait... stretching the silliness here to complain over this.

The only people that ignore damage and can run around are Trinity, Ember, and Rhino.

I bolded everything that is wrong with your post.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Smoke Bomb doesnt stop Ash from Taking damage or other effects.

Snow Globe is stationary and while inside he can take damage and other effects.

Loki invisibility doesnt stop him from taking damage or other effects.

Saryn doesnt stop her from taking damage or other effects.

Nyx is stationary and cannot do anything else, Chaos doesnt stop her from taking damage or other effects, in fact, if you start attacking an enemy he will attack you.

Volt is stationary and only block attacks that hit the shield area.

 

You guys are really reach... oh wait... stretching the silliness here to complain over this.

The only people that ignore damage and can run around are Trinity, Ember, and Rhino.

loki's decoy, and saryn's molt both act as a taunt, they attract most of the attention. Chaos causes enemies to fight each other, which takes them, off of targeting you. While this aren't IS type invinc, they act about the same. (I.e. taking the heat off of you)

[jrkong]

Rhino's Iron Skin was easily the redeeming ability of the Rhino, everything else made him a pure support frame. His abilities do practically no damage in comparison to other warframes so guns are the only things Rhino can resort to to kill besides that Rhino is just a big slow moving damage sponge.

 

I have been playing Rhino for quite a while (easily 20+ hours of gameplay overall 15 of which all abilities have used Rhino with maxed abilities) and while Rhino's abilities damage the occasional enemy they only serve as a retreat tactic without the support of your teammates. Avalanche deals 1000 damage to all enemies in the radius effectively instakilling anything in the room before anyone can do much retaliation meaning they take, effectively, 0 damage. The only way the Rhino can perform a similar feat without taking damage would be to use Iron Skin. The only solid way to take out most crowds for a Rhino would be to use Iron Skin and use a number of charged melees to whittle the crowd down to size. So if we were to do a comparison between Iron Skin vs other warframe's "nuke" it balances out. Assuming 30 enemies are in the room it would take most warframes a simple click to clear out the room where as the Rhino would need to perform Iron Skin and hack the enemies with its melee and depending on the melee weapon this may or may not be as effective as the almighty "nuke" other warframes can pull off as the effectiveness of this tactic is dependent on the melee being used (example using a skana's charge attack takes about 1 second per hit and assuming each hit kills in 1 hit it will still take the Rhino roughly 30 seconds to clear the room or 2 Iron Skins with Continuity).

 

As for the other abilities, they don't help the Rhino clear the room by himself at all and teammates are necessary for them to be useful. Due to their low damage both Rhino Stomp and Radial Blast only stall enemies enough for the Rhino to take out 4 enemies at most before they get up and retaliate as a result it usually ends up being a waste of energy. This is beside the fact that Vauban's Bastalle does exactly what Rhino Stomp does better and cheaper.

 

In essence, Rhino's Iron Skin wasn't anymore powerful then the area abilities given to other warframes and by bumping it down you've made the Rhino lose it's only "offensive" skill. Alternatively an ability rework could be done to make the Rhino more viable but right now he's no more then a slow moving damage sponge.

[Sly_J]

Wow, there are a LOT of fantastic suggestions here for alternative ways to re-balance skills affected by the update. Unfortunately, this topic is getting very large very quickly, and at 21 pages, I'm sure a lot of people don't have time to read every single response. Any chance we could get a truncated list of the most prevalent suggestions added it to the OP? That would be a godsend for late-comers like me.

 

 

Anyhoo, back to the subject of the Iron Skin nerf. Rather than suggest more alternative solutions though, I'd like to take a moment to pontificate over what I think may be the source of all the drama this issue has caused. It seems that much of the community's anger isn't so much over the fact that Iron Skin was nerfed, but rather the manner in which in which it was nerfed. (At least, most of the coherent anger is anyways ^_^;) Personally, I'm inclined to agree. I feel like the current nerf to Iron Skin was ham-handed at best. I also have a sneaking suspicion as to why, but I'll get to that in a second.

 

Simply put, damage immunity at a low energy cost was one of the primary aspects of the Rhino that made it so appealing. The best case scenario would be to find a way to re-balance Iron Skin in a way that keeps those two tenants of the ability intact. When you really think about it though, Damage Immunity and Low Energy Cost weren't just the best aspects of Iron Skin; they were the only aspects of Iron Skin. Therefore, an effective solution that appeals to most Rhino users is going to require a bit more creativity and finesse than a simple stat nerf, which brings me to my next point.

 

The way I see it, any plausible solution to balancing Iron Skin is going to require a reasonable amount of devoted design time and programming voodoo magic. With Update 8 right around the corner, I can only assume that such things are currently excessively precious resources for DE at this time. That said, the best course of action may be to either significantly relax the stat nerf or possibly remove the nerf entirely until DE can spare the time and energy to give this problem the attention it requires. (Then again, maybe the nerf should be left as is. After all, it has triggered significant discourse on the issue.)

 

Bah! I could drone on but, I think I've spouted enough speculation for now. Bottom line is this: We as the community need to limit the rage, continue to discuss these issues, and eventually organize our collective thoughts into something coherent to make the devs' lives easier when they have time to revisit this issue. Of course, from what I've seen, we seem to be doing just that. Carry on!

[holdenagincourt]

Smoke Bomb doesnt stop Ash from Taking damage or other effects.

Snow Globe is stationary and while inside he can take damage and other effects.

Loki invisibility doesnt stop him from taking damage or other effects.

Saryn doesnt stop her from taking damage or other effects.

Nyx is stationary and cannot do anything else, Chaos doesnt stop her from taking damage or other effects, in fact, if you start attacking an enemy he will attack you.

Volt is stationary and only block attacks that hit the shield area.

 

You guys are really reach... oh wait... stretching the silliness here to complain over this.

The only people that ignore damage and can run around are Trinity, Ember, and Rhino.

 

You're being intellectually dishonest about Loki and Ash.

 

Enemies don't target invisible players. So unless you turn invisible and run up to a Toxic Ancient and just stand there, you won't be taking damage from enemies, who will have target switched to one of your allies, or in the case of solos, just mill about or remain stationary.

 

Meanwhile, Loki/Ash will be regenerating his shields, while also one-shotting nearly every enemy type with the highest possible melee damage in the game.

[Scarletwing]

To Rebecca

Letting people consider more before post is a really good point but I hope designers can also think more before making changes. A good communication is based on equal and fair isn't it?

This change did very huge impact to non-Engilsh players, because some of people can not read Engilsh neither following on forum.

For the some players they did not read notes but they noticed in game, this change upset a lot of people. Also some of them just built Rhino or Banshee one or two day before changes. For them is like you learnt their salary drops one day before payday. They angry and fed up with this kind of guinea pig joke.

As like previous event of HEK change people feels like they are a lab rats, not really be able to enjoy the changes of game in good ways.

After I typing this out, I really think maybe its time to build a test server for hardcore players test out new features, changes and give feedback before launch it out in sudden. Because not all of people enjoy it also felt been toy.

As this game become more global, developers should consider decisions deeper before move.

[Mak_Gohae]

loki's decoy, and saryn's molt both act as a taunt, they attract most of the attention. Chaos causes enemies to fight each other, which takes them, off of targeting you. While this aren't IS type invinc, they act about the same. (I.e. taking the heat off of you)

 

Taunt is a taunt, taunt doesnt stop you from taking damage.

 

You're being intellectually dishonest about Loki and Ash.

 

Enemies don't target invisible players. So unless you turn invisible and run up to a Toxic Ancient and just stand there, you won't be taking damage from enemies, who will have target switched to one of your allies, or in the case of solos, just mill about or remain stationary.

 

Meanwhile, Loki/Ash will be regenerating his shields, while also one-shotting nearly every enemy type with the highest possible melee damage in the game.

 

You can still take damage which is not at all the same as Iron Skin.

[K1LLZ0NE]

Smoke Bomb doesnt stop Ash from Taking damage or other effects.

Snow Globe is stationary and while inside he can take damage and other effects.

Loki invisibility doesnt stop him from taking damage or other effects.

Saryn doesnt stop her from taking damage or other effects.

Nyx is stationary and cannot do anything else, Chaos doesnt stop her from taking damage or other effects, in fact, if you start attacking an enemy he will attack you.

Volt is stationary and only block attacks that hit the shield area.

 

You guys are really reach... oh wait... stretching the silliness here to complain over this.

The only people that ignore damage and can run around are Trinity, Ember, and Rhino.

 

Are you being intentionally dense?  I'm sorry, but ALL of those abilities give you some sort of invulnerability.  No matter how you look at it.

[BloodEmperor]

To Rebecca

Letting people consider more before post is a really good point but I hope designers can also think more before making changes. A good communication is based on equal and fair isn't it?

This change did very huge impact to non-Engilsh players, because some of people can not read Engilsh neither following on forum.

For the some players they did not read notes but they noticed in game, this change upset a lot of people. Also some of them just built Rhino or Banshee one or two day before changes. For them is like you learnt their salary drops one day before payday. They angry and fed up with this kind of guinea pig joke.

As like previous event of HEK change people feels like they are a lab rats, not really be able to enjoy the changes of game in good ways.

After I typing this out, I really think maybe its time to build a test server for hardcore players test out new features, changes and give feedback before launch it out in sudden. Because not all of people enjoy it also felt been toy.

As this game become more global, developers should consider decisions deeper before move.

i havent seen any real communication between players and developers

except a livestream held almost a month ago and 2 sentences from DE staff on regional Chat

"30 Secs Invulnerability got reduced to 10 secs"

"Fixing Door Problems"

not exactly but the content........isnt beta ment to be like players and developers balance a game together?

[fishworshipper]

Taunt is a taunt, taunt doesnt stop you from taking damage.

 

 

You can still take damage which is not at all the same as Iron Skin.

You obviously are trolling or have no idea how taunts work.

IF AN ENEMY ISN'T ATTACKING YOU, YOU WONT TAKE DAMAGE.

[Mak_Gohae]

Are you being intentionally dense?  I'm sorry, but ALL of those abilities give you some sort of invulnerability.  No matter how you look at it.

 

If we are going to do to this silliness levels people would only be using two or three frames because they do the same thing as others but better and people, of course, only pic the best and ignore the rest.

 

So 90% of the people would be playing what? Ex, Nyx, and Mag.

[11.11.11]

I'm loving this Hot topic idea.

 

Not loving the 22 pages to read though. 

[11.11.11]

As like previous event of HEK change people feels like they are a lab rats, not really be able to enjoy the changes of game in good ways.

 

 

As much as I sympathise with your position Scarlet - we are lab rats. This is still beta. We're still the test dummies. We honestly can't expect to enjoy the game as much as we will post launch. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Taunt is a taunt, taunt doesnt stop you from taking damage.

 

 

You can still take damage which is not at all the same as Iron Skin.

As long as you're not dumb enough to walk up to a toxic, or stand in front of any enemies attacks, you won't take damage. Almost every frame has something like this (i.e. survivability skill)

 

edit:

As much as I sympathise with your position Scarlet - we are lab rats. This is still beta. We're still the test dummies. We honestly can't expect to enjoy the game as much as we will post launch. 

But they should have patch testers before releasing it.

Edited May 18, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

I'm loving this Hot topic idea.

 

Not loving the 22 pages to read though. 

It's mostly just people suggesting similar fixes to rhino because the update was awful, and then the occasional guy coming in and going "Lol everyone just whiners"

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I just did a ceres alert. So, lancers at level 40.

I popped IS when there were a paltry two lancers and a trooper in my way as a test, with me running up to them to hack them up with my swords.

I started taking health damage before I got there. Now, my redirection is not maxed - in total I've got around 800 shields. On the other hand, I've got rush, and running across one single room should not be a death sentence against four high level mook enemies. One more lancer would've totally killed me - and this is with a Rhino with high rank vitality and steel weave mods in addition to the redirection mod and maxed IS.

So now, Rhino has to play like Excal and be very cautious. Which is doubly unfortunate, because Rhino is simply too slow even with rush to play like that, and lacks the things that Excal can use to actually play like that effectively.

So yeah. Color me extremely disappointed by the nerf.

As to how to fix it: Revert IS to allow invincibility, but boost energy cost/add cooldown as needed. Also nerf down to ~10 secs instead of 15, just to placate the people who screech about how OP it is.

[K1LLZ0NE]

If we are going to do to this silliness levels people would only be using two or three frames because they do the same thing as others but better and people, of course, only pic the best and ignore the rest.

 

So 90% of the people would be playing what? Ex, Nyx, and Mag.

 

lol  You are hilarious.  I can't read your posts without cracking up.

[11.11.11]

It's mostly just people suggesting similar fixes to rhino because the update was awful, and then the occasional guy coming in and going "Lol everyone just whiners"

 

[gamefreak9149]

Smoke Bomb doesnt stop Ash from Taking damage or other effects.

Snow Globe is stationary and while inside he can take damage and other effects.

Loki invisibility doesnt stop him from taking damage or other effects.

Saryn doesnt stop her from taking damage or other effects.

Nyx is stationary and cannot do anything else, Chaos doesnt stop her from taking damage or other effects, in fact, if you start attacking an enemy he will attack you.

Volt is stationary and only block attacks that hit the shield area.

 

You guys are really reach... oh wait... stretching the silliness here to complain over this.

The only people that ignore damage and can run around are Trinity, Ember, and Rhino.

While smoke bomb and invisibility do not grant damage reduction they do provide time the get out of trouble card that is needed.

 

Snow globe does not provide 100% damage reduction but it does provide a much needed protection for others and does slow everything down inside. It also stop nearly all projectiles from passing though it, rail gun moas are the only mob I can think of at this time that passes though it.

 

Saryns moult and loki's decoy does provide a nice target for mobs to shoot at and attack giving time to recover shields and or escape/kill mobs. Not to mention decoy is fantastic to switch with to get around maps with.

 

Nyx's chaos and and ultimate are both very powerful. Her bubble might be stationary but you are unkillable during the time and damage taken is used in a offensive manner. Chaos well it turns the odds to your advantage, enough said.

 

Trinity's ultimate  is a full heal to shields and health to the time with unlimited range and not to mention a few seconds to everyone from taking damage. Her link and energy siphon can be used to face tank any boss mob in the game far easier then IS ever did.

 

Volts shield i can kinda agree on since its small and provides very little cover to shoot from, but it does stop all forms of projectiles I can think of from passing though.

[Dovahjim]

I really hope the Devs see this topic and all the suggestions of giving it a cooldown or higher cost, or at least provide immunity to ancients and knockback (if it isn't a bug).