Real Talk: The Infested Just Aren't Fun To Fight Anymore.(In Missions Above Level 15-25)

[Brynslustafir]

I was(like many others) extremely excited when the infested started getting some more love from DE. The simplest, most exploitable faction in the game was finally getting some more interesting enemies. And for a good while, my outlook on them remained positive. But now I've come to realize that these enemies basically suck all the fun out of high level infested missions. I just got done with a few Sechura runs that went past wave 5, and boy oh boy are these special infested an enormous pain to deal with.

First off, I think their spawn rates need to be revised for high level missions. At wave 8, the sheer number of tar and Swarm Mutalist Moas on the map made it impossible to go more than 5 seconds without getting stuck in another tar puddle, and them bombarded with infested beehives.

 

Secondly (and on the topic of tar puddles), at multiple points I found myself getting stuck in puddle after puddle without even having a chance to roll out and hit clean ground. I got stuck in 4 puddles in a row in a solid line. I couldn't even do anything about the Moas because EVERYTHING gets slowed down by the puddle. Even Fire rate. I couldn't even kill them fast enough to stop the Tar-pocalypse. And this was all happening despite the 5 Vortexes with maxed out range I had placed around the pod to catch the infested early. 

 

In addition to being able to hit us with long lasting DoT and stall us in our tracks, many of the infested units are capable of making you stumble, or even completely knocking you down. This would be fine, except that DE seemingly didn't program in any anti-stunlocking measures. 
Let me tell you, I just love getting stuck in a tar puddle, getting pulled by an ancient, and then stunlocked to death by repeated Moa stomps. That totally isn't cheap or annoying at all. 

 

What does this all mean? This means that DE created extremely capable enemies with powerful crowd control, but didn't give us the right tools to deal with them. When you get stuck in a chain of puddles, bombarded with bees, and then stunlocked to death there's nothing you can do, and that's just not right. 

 

For Grineer, I use Nova. For Corpus, I use Mag, and for infested... well, not even Vauban Works anymore so I guess I have no more options but to jump on the Mesa bandwagon. 

I'm finally starting to see why so many players have started using Mesa and just Ulting to victory instead of trying to have fun. It's not their fault, it's because the infested just aren't any fun to fight anymore.

 

What we need is a revision of every single one of the mutalist units, and new ways to deal with and escape from stunlock.

I want to see the infested become a fun and challenging faction to fight, but challenging and cheap are 2 completely different things. 

 

And for anyone who takes this as nothing but a butthurt rant. Stop for a moment and think. For what reason do we play games? For every single genre, the answer is the same. We play games to be entertained. And if the game just makes the player mad because of bad design, then it is failing to achieve its ultimate purpose. We can't just keep ignoring problems like this and interpreting negative feedback as rage. That disposition is toxic and bad for the game and its entire community. 

That's all there is to it. So grow up. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by Plasmaface

[7grims]

Infested are at a very good place, and are reasonably balanced atm.

 

As for the tools to deal with them, nova and vauban are still pretty good at pwning the infested.

 

The slow motion puddles are very effective indeed, and compared to so many horrible horrible similar features DE as made over the years, those puddles are quite alright and manageable.

Edited May 27, 2015 by 7grims

[Liminal]

I agree they are not fun. Difficulty aside, they have way too many annoying effects. I'm looking at you, MOAs. Stacking auras are a bit ridiculous too.

[Brynslustafir]

Infested are at a very good place, and are reasonably balanced atm.

 

As for the tools to deal with them, nova and vauban are still pretty good at pwning the infested.

 

The slow motion puddles are very effective indeed, and compared to so many horrible horrible similar features DE as made over the years, those puddles are quite alright and manageable.

Look, I felt the exact same way about 2 months ago, but I've sobered up since then, and I really can't ignore these issues anymore. 

 

But to get back on topic, did you even read all the way through?

I explained exactly why they aren't properly manageable and why they aren't in a good place.

Except I actually provided evidence to support my claims. 

 

You aren't helping anyone by ignoring problems. In order for something to be fixed, we need to find and understand what's wrong with it. A complacent disposition leads to stagnation, and I don't like stagnation. I like advancement. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by Plasmaface

[KarmicRex]

i don't see any problem. sorry

[MrPie5]

Infested used to be boring to fight, now they're just annoying.

Getting shot by tar? Just kill the moa.
See, he's right over there. Just kidding, you can't see anything because you have bees!

You could roll or melee very slowly through the tar you're currently standing in to get the bees off.

Now if you can just find the 5 ancient healers hanging around, you can kill that moa.

Okay the first one is right over - *knocked down by leaper, still in tar*

*get up, grappled by the ancient you were just looking at, dragged through more tar*

See that moa raising up its leg while you're knocked down and tarred and helpless? He's about to knock you down again and throw you somewhere else for good measure.

Guess what, you landed in more tar! Now while you're getting up with all the speed of a 100-year old man with arthritis in joints that don't even exist, here's some chargers (covered with bees, of course) to keep you company.

Not enough? Don't worry, there's an ancient disruptor running over to knock you down and then drain all your energy.

Oh look, more tar and bees!

 

*repeat ad nauseum*

Edit: Don't forget stagger from kamikaze runners and one-hit kills from Toxic Ancients if you happen to be running anything squishier than Rhino.

Edited May 27, 2015 by MrPie5

[Brynslustafir]

Infested used to be boring to fight, now they're just annoying.

Getting shot by tar? Just kill the moa.

See, he's right over there. Just kidding, you can't see anything because you have bees!

You could roll or melee very slowly through the tar you're currently standing in to get the bees off.

Now if you can just find the 5 ancient healers hanging around, you can kill that moa.

Okay the first one is right over - *knocked down by leaper, still in tar*

*get up, grappled by the ancient you were just looking at, dragged through more tar*

See that moa raising up its leg while you're knocked down and tarred and helpless? He's about to knock you down again and throw you somewhere else for good measure.

Guess what, you landed in more tar! Now while you're getting up with all the speed of a 100-year old man with arthritis in joints that don't even exist, here's some chargers (covered with bees, of course) to keep you company.

Not enough? Don't worry, there's an ancient disruptor running over to knock you down and then drain all your energy.

Oh look, more tar and bees!

 

*repeat ad nauseum*

Pretty much how my last 3 runs went. 

i don't see any problem. sorry

You're not looking hard enough. 

[Liminal]

Also, about the stunlocks:

WF has a strange definition of appropriate punishment. Most people would agree that making one mistake should entail proportionate punishment. WF begs to differ, because you make one mistake and instead of getting knocked down once you can get permastunned and die.

 

This is not only a thing with the infested though, Grineer love chained CC.

[FelisImpurrator]

Toxic Ancient once oneshot me so hard it logged me out.

 

True story.

 

Also, there are so many of those damned bees it's like that Nicolas Cage movie.

[Flibbertigibbety]

I think the problem is that many players are like "let's just run in and kill everything! yeah! Guns blazing! FUN FUN FUN" and the combined effects of everything totally ruins their fun. I enjoy the infested because I have to actually think about what I need to kill, and what I can hold off on. I see one of those flying ospreys, I freakin shoot it down (usually carries a damn crawler, which will die with it before it's dropped). The others can wait. There are a wide variety of abilities in the game to handle enemies in your own special way. Some are best suited for infested (valkyr, I find, is one of the most fun against them), and some are weaker and rely more on your weapons. Be sure to take out sploders before they get to you, remember to aim low and use ranged aoe for crawlers. MOAs, though really annoying, are pretty large and easy to see. Focus on them, or you get glued. in general, if you can take to any high ground (even jumping on a crate), focusing on individual enemies is much easier. I enjoy open areas with valkyr so I can escape quickly when I need to and get to a better vantage point. I"m sure zephyr has similar useful advantages. could also create a defensive perimeter around the group with Vaubon's trip wire grenades, which do slash damage.

 

don't run into the middle of a bunch of enemies, have them all attack you at once with multiple abilities, and then say they're impossible to deal with.

 

My only complaint about the infested is that they're not available on more nodes throughout the game. Hopefully, that will change with the new node system.

[Flibbertigibbety]

I especially love using rip line on the ancients... and finishers on them. Always think to myself "HA! GOTCHA FIRST!"

[Blackout751]

I agree. I can't play this game for fun any more, really. I won't list all the enemies I find annoying because that takes about 15 minutes, but missions are more like chores with all the grappling hooks, knockdown, stacking Ancient auras, slowdown, knockdown, bees, Scorch flames, Seeker rounds, knockdown, Detron one-shotting, Heat procs, Drahk and knockdown. When I play, it's because I have to level a weapon or help a friend with something or get something cool. I've only had real fun recently when I completed a mission via walking around like a boss with only a Lex Prime, and when I first used Castanas.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Blackout751

[taiiat]

i only see a few moderately minor issues that sum up to annoyances that don't add difficulty or challenge.

- Ancients start using their Grapple Hook literally the frame you come into LoS of them.

this is pretty... *insert offensive word here*.

there's no telegraphing to this. just immediately happens.

- Tar MOA's have very little Telegraphing. you hear the sound of them charging to shoot Tar. great!

i turn around and face them so i can avoid the Tar. the Tar is already 1/2-3/4 of the way to me by the time i've turned around even though i did it immediately.

- Swarms can block vision a bit much. the center of the screen should probably stay relatively clear.

- grapple in Tar is annoying.

if you get grappled while standing in Tar - idunno, have the grapple break or something. being pulled in super slow motion while Enemies wail on your body is a good way to become a corpse. and is not fun or challenging.

- Energy Drain Eximus. it's like. 90% of the Eximus Units that Infested can spawn...

and Venemous Eximus's 20m Toxin Aura probably should require LoS.

i'm sure there's some other things i can't remember off the top of my head.

however, my issues are several small things that can result in bad experiences.

in general, provided you have an organized Squad that knows what they're doing, then it goes well. i'm okay with this in general - Squads using some strategy and working together in Co-Op? by all means.

Edited May 27, 2015 by taiiat

[Mesyra]

only things I need for infested to be fun again:

 

less visual effects, stop darkening my screen, flashing lights, and just doing stupid S#&$ with colour correction.

 

no 90% damage redux on mobs near ancients, its a S#&$ty idea and is just plain annoying, you cant do S#&$ in late game because of it.

 

LESS @(*()$ KNOCKDOWNS/STAGGERS, I hate staggers and knockdowns in any game, but in Warframe its over the top. Everything staggers you, everything knocks you down, everything is annoying in some way.

 

less auras/status effects, they are too common, just make the entire infested's status chance go down by like 20%, maybe more.

[Epicagemo]

...

 

don't run into the middle of a bunch of enemies, have them all attack you at once with multiple abilities, and then say they're impossible to deal with.

 

...

Here's the thing, even if you don't run to them, they run to you.

[Paradoxbomb]

-Ancients are significantly more annoying than they used to be. In the past they didn't do too much and while the Toxic and Disruptors were dangerous, they were for all intents just slightly beefier versions of the light units. Giving them grappling hooks for CC and Auras to improve their allies' survivability weren't inherently bad choices, but they never adjusted their spawn rates to accommodate for these changes. Now we have these incredibly common and incredibly potent enemies that can ripline you the instant you enter their sight, remove your ability to reliably damage and CC the light infested, and turn the the mobs into an indiscernible mess of auras that makes it impossible to prioritize any key targets (namely the Ancients themselves). Either they need to have their spawn rates toned down or they need to have their abilities made less annoying and/or obtrusive.

 

-I'm mostly okay with Tar MOAs, although I wouldn't mind if they only shot one or two patches of tar per shot instead of three, and if they weren't quite so good at leading their shots (I swear they know where I'm going to stand even before I do).

 

-Swarm MOAs need to do a fancy backflip out of the game entirely. Give their ability to buff allies to Maggots, at least those things are killable and don't destroy the game's frame-rate.

 

-Venomous and Parasitic Eximus units can also get lost.

 

 

Can't really complain about the rest though.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Paradoxbomb

[Brynslustafir]

 

don't run into the middle of a bunch of enemies, have them all attack you at once with multiple abilities, and then say they're impossible to deal with.

 

I WAS IN A DEFENSE MISSION! MY JOB WAS TO DEFEND A SINGULAR OBJECT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MAP THAT ALL ENEMIES INSTINCTIVELY ADVANCE TOWARDS!

 

 

Did you even read? I explained exactly why they are impossible to deal with without using cheap tactics, you just didn't pay attention. 

 

My job was to stay near enough to the pod and put down vortexes. The Infested came to me. 

 

Trying to say that the problem is with the players and not the game is just plain wrong. 

 

Even when playing carefully, the infested can and will still screw you over. The newer enemies were designed to be cool and interesting, with little thought given to balance or humane design.

 

I really shouldn't have to explain this stuff. This is like having to teach basic geometry to a college student.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Plasmaface

[FelisImpurrator]

Ancients in general are presently completely awful.

 

First you have the Disrupters. Overpowered magnet proc that has a ridiculously high chance of hitting on the grapple alone. Aura that gives everything near it energy drain attacks. Power resistance.

 

Then you have the Healers. CC-proof tanks that heal in a way that makes things like AOE absurdly hard to use against them. Aura of massive tanking... that may or may not still stack, which is why Loka's death squads are basically a tank made of smaller tanks, that simultaneously drains+burns+poisons+leeches you if you don't get out of their spawn radius and stay out.

 

Finally, the Toxics. which breathe oneshot in gaseous form, are also lethal to the touch, and basically make your shields completely useless. Aura that wrecks your armor... and, for some reason, nullifies the element that is supposed to be the counter to lower level infested, which is probably half of why no one actually runs Gas.

 

And then there's just the fact that they can spawn as toxic Eximi, which is bundles of fun when just being in close proximity for too long means you get a face full of undodgeable death poison. (At least the Mutalist Ospreys can be evaded because they telegraph.)

 

Also, no one has brought up the matter of Chargers, whose "weak" claw attacks can oneshot nearly as hard as Toxic breath... for some reason.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

The thing with infested is they need nothing drastic, IMO. They just have tons of enemies that are slightly too annoying, and it combines for an overall frustrating experience. Several of them need to go, and several more need changes. But they don't need five months of work to make fun.

1. Venomous eximi need to die. There's nothing fun about "oh, this spawned so you died. GG". They serve no gameplay purpose other than guaranteeing you'll lose at least a third of your health, if you roll.

2. Parasitic eximi need to go. Clearly, they aren't stopping spammers; they just screw over everyone else. Again, they aren't fun in any way either.

3. Toxic crawlers need to go. There are too many enemies and effects for these to be at all noticable, making them just a health tax on melee players.

4. Ancients shouldn't buff each other as much as they can. Each ancient shouldn't be buffable by more than one other of a different type; and when that other dies they shouldn't be able to get buffed again. It's no fun when you realize there are 10 ancients around you and they now have 10^10 times their effective health.

5. Ancient hooks shouldn't exist. At some point DE should allow chargers and crawlers to run up walls, but until then there's no need to mess with everyone else. If they must stay, they should actually latch on for a second before pulling, giving players a second to roll or flip them off.

6. Tar moas should fire slow, lobbing globs that force players to dodge. They shouldn't be as fast or as straight-line.

7. Swarm moas shouldn't exist. I've never heard of an enemy that exists solely to mess with your framerate and hurt your eyes, but thanks to this moa it exists.

8. All special enemies in this faction need a decreased spawn rate, at least until very high levels. As it is right now, there's just too much going on all the time.

That sounds like a ton of changes, but all of these would probably take a day of coding to make happen.

[FelisImpurrator]

The thing with infested is they need nothing drastic, IMO. They just have tons of enemies that are slightly too annoying, and it combines for an overall frustrating experience. Several of them need to go, and several more need changes. But they don't need five months of work to make fun.

 

*snip for length*

 

That sounds like a ton of changes, but all of these would probably take a day of coding to make happen.

9. Nerf the Charger attacks to actually make sense with their description. One Charger on Eris spawning behind you and lightly batting its claw at you is a straight up oneshot on half the frames.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

9. Nerf the Charger attacks to actually make sense with their description. One Charger on Eris spawning behind you and lightly batting its claw at you is a straight up oneshot on half the frames.

They could use a mild damage nerf, but I think the damage is mostly fine as is. The problem IMO is that you're likely to miss them because a swarm is frying your eyes while you try to beat on an overly tanky Parasitic eximus that drains your health while five ancients buff it; in this scenario it becomes annoying that everything has to be public threat number one. If chargers were the only real attack, urgent priority units and everything else was just for support, this wouldn't be so bad (as their damage wasn't that bothersome before the changes to the rest of the faction).

Then change their descriptions, or let us, or the design council, or someone fix all the descriptions in the game.

Edited May 28, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[(PSN)Pharen]

The big issues I see here is, grapples need a mechanic where you can fire your weapon and use your sword while being dragged. And the Tar moas shot should only affect movement speed and movement abilities, not fire rate and casting speed.

[RafaelFuchs]

broberon knows nothing of your silly problems. fairy carpets solve the world's problems.

 

seriously though, i do agree. the spawning needs to be adjusted at the very least. i've had some serious slippery slope moments vs the infested and they're just not fun. always starts with the hook or tar for me though...bees don't bother me at all. then you got those healers, which are 100% ok when there aren't 4+ in an area just giggling as you try to kill other infested such as the 6 or so energy leeches just destroying your measly sense of control of the situation causing another massive slippery slope. 

 

point is, the units are fine in small amounts, but past that point they're horribly broken when all together in the same place.

[Grom-84]

Infested are at a very good place, and are reasonably balanced atm.

 

As for the tools to deal with them, nova and vauban are still pretty good at pwning the infested.

 

The slow motion puddles are very effective indeed, and compared to so many horrible horrible similar features DE as made over the years, those puddles are quite alright and manageable.

Yea very "balanced"... especially while you are being constantly stunlocked and footballed by moas, or dragged through endless pools of goo by ancient's aimbot hooks.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Grom-84

[ra9una]

I agree they are not fun. Difficulty aside, they have way too many annoying effects. I'm looking at you, MOAs. Stacking auras are a bit ridiculous too.

Boom, yes, all this.