Avoiding "Pay-to-Win", and ensuring longevity

[direcyphre]

I must say, I am enjoying the game quite well without spending a single cent. However, I would partially attribute that to the cash shop prices. Most DLC missions, hours of content and other items added, don't really run that expensive. That's not to say I never will spend the money, and I'm yet undecided on becoming a Founder, but it is always sad to see absurd pricing. I suppose it's a pricing scale compared against one of the more traditional 'cash rental shops' used in other free online shooters?

[Aggh]

Apparently you dont see the big picture here. They want you to buy the founder's pack. Why do you think there is such a huge spike between the $20 and $50? That's their goal. You can try to justify whatever ideology you want, but it's not going to change anything. Take a look around the forums. I'm seeing more and more at least Hunter level founder. The fact is, you either want to buy it or don't. They aren't forcing you do anything.

All you're doing is complaining about something that you can't afford.

You're miscontruing forum activity as a representation of player activity. Founders are more likely to post here since they've got an investment in the game. That doesn't mean there aren't piles of people that dropped the game or are holding off on spending money til the prices are made more reasonable. In most games, the great majority of people rarely ever touch the official forums.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Aggh

[Ryme]

My warframe is lvl 30. It is not unlocked so I havn't been able to actually use all the points. Nonetheless it is capped as I'm working on making another. At this point, I find my interest in the game starting to wane. Having my upgrades locked is annoying, but I have hope I will get lucky on a login reward or ? mission one of these days.

What is really chipping interest away is the inventory space limitations. Every time I look at the market, I consider trying out new weapons. But then I look at my inventory space and pass on it. With no ingame means of expanding your storage space, it is a glaring line in the sand that divides Free players from Paying players. That thought just irks me more than anything else.

[Wiawyr]

My warframe is lvl 30. It is not unlocked so I havn't been able to actually use all the points. Nonetheless it is capped as I'm working on making another. At this point, I find my interest in the game starting to wane. Having my upgrades locked is annoying, but I have hope I will get lucky on a login reward or ? mission one of these days.

What is really chipping interest away is the inventory space limitations. Every time I look at the market, I consider trying out new weapons. But then I look at my inventory space and pass on it. With no ingame means of expanding your storage space, it is a glaring line in the sand that divides Free players from Paying players. That thought just irks me more than anything else.

I share your feels on the slots. I want to try several weapons...but I'll have to throw them or something else away.

[athx]

You're miscontruing forum activity as a representation of player activity. Founders are more likely to post here since they've got an investment in the game. That doesn't mean there aren't piles of people that dropped the game or are holding off on spending money til the prices are made more reasonable. In most games, the great majority of people rarely ever touch the official forums.

I never mentioned once that the founders represent the forum activity. I merely stated it as a point that more and more people are paying for founders. I know that a great amount of people dont post in the forums. To be honest, we will never know.

If I wanted to be nitpicking about these arguments, I could have done so a lot earlier. The whole $20 argument is gravely misleading since some frames goes as low as 75 plate ($5). Regardless, unless you're familiar with pricing in the gaming industry backed by with actual data, who are we to argue what pricing is right or wrong? They have made things easier to obtain now that all weapon/frames can be bought and farmed for yet people cry for more?

[Venarge]

People keep using the term "pay2win" with this game. P2w applies in a PvP setting; this is a PvE co-op. You pay to power.

Thank you! I just cant understand how people can say a PVE would be p2w....

[Wiawyr]

Thank you! I just cant understand how people can say a PVE would be p2w....

You're welcome!

[Aggh]

I never mentioned once that the founders represent the forum activity. I merely stated it as a point that more and more people are paying for founders. I know that a great amount of people dont post in the forums. To be honest, we will never know.

If I wanted to be nitpicking about these arguments, I could have done so a lot earlier. The whole $20 argument is gravely misleading since some frames goes as low as 75 plate ($5). Regardless, unless you're familiar with pricing in the gaming industry backed by with actual data, who are we to argue what pricing is right or wrong? They have made things easier to obtain now that all weapon/frames can be bought and farmed for yet people cry for more?

You might not think you did, but you did, but saying "Take a look around the forums. I'm seeing more and more at least Hunter level founder." Can only be seen as commenting on what you see on the forums; you're only going to see more hunter founders if you're looking for those emblems. And hunters are much more likely to post on the forums than people spending less. There could in fact be more hunters, but considering that most people are unlikely to drop $50+ on a beta for a game, that's really unlikely. You can argue all the what ifs in the world, but there are piles of very good, highly marketed games that people are more likely to spend money on.

Only 3 frames go for 75 plat and they're the basic frames, which new players will likely not be as interested in since they don't know that they're the best ones. I think that you missed everyone else comparing the price to other parts of the game industry. You see, if the average player can get a full game for the price of part of a game, which do you think they're more likely to choose? Especially during a beta when no one knows where game balance or for that matter, the game itself will go?

The only possibly way I could see them keeping the current pricing on war frames is if they do a rotation of pricing where 3 different frames are put on sale to 75 plat every month and the rest are put at the ~275-375 plat.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Aggh

[Zakalwe]

I agree, the platinum prices for things are too high.

Founders packages make it seem better, but once they're gone and people are looking at the store as a potential way to "buy the full game", it'll look like a ridiculous idea.

I think the stores in these places should allow access to the full content for around the price of a top-end retail, so, say, $50-60 or so (just a little more expensive than a standard full game, imo, as you have the options to farm it for free anyway and the devs need to make money). That way people can look at it as (loose analogy) F2P is the demo and the store is buyigna retail copy.

Of course, this is a very quick assessment.

The way that devs should look at making the real money is via cosmetic items. Cool reskins, subtle effects, etc... I would spend a good deal of platinum on this stuff if I was invested in the game as I adore customisation.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Hypernexus]

I also feel the prices are too high for platinum and items/frames etc.

I haven't bought any because of the prices, whereas if they were lower, I would probably buy a few, maybe more.

But, the game plays great, and I think the upgrading is fair in general, I would just like to be able to try out some items before commiting such big money to them.

Hawken(and im sure other games) have a 'Test drive' feature where you get to try stuff for brief ammount of time. It helps decide if you want the item and are far more willing then to part with the cash.

[herflik]

Pay2win definition is short and goes like that:

"Any game that offers unfair adventage to paying customers is stated as P2W."

That means that if game allow you to buy in-game gold it is P2W, its basicaly as hacking single players game, same sh...

If game allowe you to buy weapons/armor that require long farm (long means around 2weeks or longer) in instant for cashshop, is P2W.

Its again like hacking in single player games, its not buying content of game since the content is already avalible, you just want to go easy mode, and easy mode like that is called pay2win.

Game that sell powerfull items that can be resolld for players for in-game cash is P2W game, since its basicaly like buying in-game cash directly case.

Basicaly any game that speed up your progress by more than around 50% of f2p player progression is pay2win.

The under 50% is acceptable since developers need to make cash from somewhere, and the f2p players and game economy dont have so big impact by it.

Allowed cash shop items/content in f2p game that dont make it p2w:

- cosmetic items and overhouls (even new cosmetic UI can be nice)

- better character look customization (its basicaly cosmetic stuff, but i mean stuff like colour pallet now)

- login priority if server is full

- small XP/DROP boosts up to 50% max for few hours or premium duration

- items that can be used as normal items, but are nowhere the highest avalible tier of items and are just bit better than avarange item of its tier, also can be gotten nowhere else but cash shop (meaning that if best weapon do 1000DPS, you can buy in cash shop 700 DPS weapon max, but the tier of the cash shop item weapon is equal to regular 650DPS weapon for f2p player, so make your game bit easier but temporialy without influencing end-game and economy)

- more character slots, bank slots, mail item send slots, auction house slots, invetory slots

- faster craft, faster respawn, more respawns etc. (only if they dont affect gameplay or economy to much, meaning dont give you to big gain by that, same restriction as xp/drop boosts)

Edited January 17, 2013 by herflik

[athx]

Pay to win definition is subjective. Despite it, every weapon that can be obtained through platinum can be obtained through credits.

It's simple. The game offers non paying customers the opportunity to purchase platinum items. It does not take long to acquire and farm for each item. If you can't afford or just dont want to spend money. Farm it. That's the way it is. If everything was easily (and quickly) obtainable without paying for it, then this game wouldnt last very long.

[Aggh]

Pay to win definition is subjective. Despite it, every weapon that can be obtained through platinum can be obtained through credits.

It's simple. The game offers non paying customers the opportunity to purchase platinum items. It does not take long to acquire and farm for each item. If you can't afford or just dont want to spend money. Farm it. That's the way it is. If everything was easily (and quickly) obtainable without paying for it, then this game wouldnt last very long.

That is problematic too though. They need to find a price point where enough people are willing to pay instead of go through the grind for a new frame. The problem is that the grind is kind of reasonable. You're going to be grinding for mods anyways and the better ones tend to drop at boss levels. By the time you've fully upgraded some weapons and a frame, you've probably already started crafting your second frame. With how reasonable the grind is for a frame within the current game, many people won't waste the cash on a frame, they'd be better of spending it on the one thing you absolutely can only get with cash atm, slots.

For the cost of a non starter warframe you can pretty much buy all the slots you'll ever need for the forseeable future :|

Edited January 17, 2013 by Aggh

[Wiawyr]

The grind for a new frame only seems reasonable when put up against the $25 price point. It's still a significant investment of time, both farming and waiting on the foundry.

[Aggh]

The grind for a new frame only seems reasonable when put up against the $25 price point. It's still a significant investment of time, both farming and waiting on the foundry.

Exactly what I was talking about. Why pay $25 for something you'll get it eventually either way? If you want to get good mods you're going to be grinding a lot either way. You're not really investing any time waiting on the foundry. You can spend that time leveling up new weapons and farming for other war frames :|

[GzHertz]

I feel the gaming community is becoming confused what "pay-to-win" means.

"Pay to Win" means there is character skill improving gear only attainable by spending real life cash. You could play a lifetime and never get a certain weapon because it is ONLY available in the real-money, developer maintained, marketplace.

As long as every item/gear/etc can be attained through playtime, by "farming" the area/character that drops the item, or materials for building the item, then the game is NOT "pay-to-win(ptw)".

Its OK if someone can install the game for the first time, jump onto the marketplace, buy every item in the game, and pay to rank the newly bought items to lvl 30. That should be their choice in the free-to-play model and that should not ruin anyones fun. However, its known many take offense to "newbs" buying their way ahead of the "hard-working" veterans.

Heres where this rant fits in the feedback forum... to ensure this game doesnt upset off the core playerbase, maintains steady income as a free-to-play game, and has longevity and replayability... this game needs a MASSIVE influx of weapons, warframes, and misc other items. I undertand this is beta and I expect many more items are on the way..

However, two things:

1- I'd just like to point out that the devs need to introduce enough weapons/warframes/items that the "farmers" and "cash shoppers" alike are always debating buying a new item in the cash shop. That occurs when the farmer has many stuff to farm, and the cost of buying the item of interest is relativlely low in relation to the farm time. To buy all the items they want = expensive. To buy a couple of the items they want = inexpensive and worthwhile in grand scheme.

2- An items power matches the time or cash required to aquire it. Make teirs of items with each teir increasing in power. The better the item(or teir), the longer to farm or the more cash it costs. Items of similar "teir", but simply different capabilities or appearence are cool too, but wont intrigue players to stay playing warframe for long.

I totally agree with 1, as for 2 i'm lazy to read for now even though it's short; I belive that when this game is officially launched I would like to see maybe a 1-3 months introduce of a new weapon or maybe warframe, if not possible maybe special item for the month or so.

Ok I just read 2, well taking a longer time to farm doesn't seem like a problem to me but yea, this help keep the player play longer than just gain a warframe or weapon and fell all down because they got what they wanted and feel bored already.

Edited January 18, 2013 by GzHertz

[GzHertz]

I tried pointing this out with the same example about pricing and entire games. A dev responded to me and said "just because you're cheap doesn't mean there isn't someone willing to spend a thousand dollars in a single game". I was not impressed.

Well buying items in cash comes with rank 30 upgrade

Edited January 18, 2013 by GzHertz

[Wiawyr]

Well buying items in cash comes with rank 30 upgrade

Uh? I don't get the point here, can you please elaborate?

[LionShard]

Uh? I don't get the point here, can you please elaborate?

He stated, that the game is p2w :P

[Charlatan]

I think he means they come with pro too.

If he means they are level 30 when you buy them, I'm going to laugh myself to sleep tonight.

[Wiawyr]

He stated, that the game is p2w :P

Pay 2 power, there's no winning here, it's all co-op. But I think I get it now.

I think he means they come with pro too.

If he means they are level 30 when you buy them, I'm going to laugh myself to sleep tonight.

So you pay for the game to play itself for you? Why would anyone even do that, what's the point then? You dally around for a few minutes, go "ho hum, no challenge" and leave? Barf.

[Rhynocerous]

Oh hey, more people that think P2W literally means you insert your credit card and you win the game.

P2W means you can buy power. It's not a huge deal in this game because it's co-op.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Rhynocerous

[Charlatan]

Pay 2 power, there's no winning here, it's all co-op...

Competition versus AI is still competition. You're still trying to beat the AI. Say they removed the AI altogether. Would they still have a game?

No. Who would you compete against to complete objectives?

If you buy power to use against the AI, you're still using it to win more over it. So yeah. It's P2W. PvE only is a bad argument. It's not as bad as buying power to use against other players, but it's still valid.

...pay for the game to play itself for you...

As for that.. The game's currently leaning more pay to not grind or have fun, which isn't quite as bad as p2w, but coincides with that statement.

To progress past level 15 in game you either pay for it, or wait for Alerts, or hope you get lucky and get what is basically the 1 million dollar spot on the Wheel of fortune during your daily spin.

On the Alerts subject.. Forum post info gathering has led me to believe that its somewhere around 5-10% for a ? to show up, and 30% for you to actually get anything out of it.. And that there are roughly 25 different items/blueprints you can get. This basically boils down to 0.0012% chance for any alert to have the one specific item you want since the items and blueprints aren't one shot. And this is using 10% for the ? to show up.

If you're going for progression you only need 1 of those for your weapon, and 1 other one for your frame. Also, these blueprints are special in that once used, the foundry sets them on fire afterwards so you need to find another, even though they let you keep your other blueprints, setting you on the treadmill again.

Hell, i'm logged into the game right now. Not even playing. I just wait for the alert beep, check it, then go on my merry way if it isn't a ?. I'm most likely not the only one. The game's holding progression hostage for money. If I don't have a chance to progress I won't play. It's that simple.

All there is to do now is wait, hope for a catalyst or reactor, build it, wait some more, use it, all the while waiting for another ? alert.

At the very least if they put in some sort of Alert shop and gave you SAVED THE WORLD POINTS for doing them to buy what you actually want, then people would play them more often.

As it stands, they should just remove all non ? alerts because they reward you just like every other mission does and do nothing special.

I am grateful though. It gives me a chance to play and actually get somewhere in other games.

[Wiawyr]

Competition versus AI is still competition. You're still trying to beat the AI. Say they removed the AI altogether. Would they still have a game?

No. Who would you compete against to complete objectives?

If you buy power to use against the AI, you're still using it to win more over it. So yeah. It's P2W. PvE only is a bad argument. It's not as bad as buying power to use against other players, but it's still valid.

No, I'm sorry. This has been discussed at length in other threads, the term pay2win really refers to a PvP setting where spending cash money nets you an advantage over anyone who doesn't. In a PvE co-op game where you just get things faster, it's consider pay2power, as we are all winning all the time by beating the AI. The way I worded it in that post was incorrect, everyone wins, but no one is winning by causing someone else to lose.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Wiawyr

[Charlatan]

... it's consider pay2power...

There's been entire threads dedicated to semantics? Its the same thing, only people think its acceptable because we aren't in direct competition with eachother. Given, it's not as bad. However, It's still what it is. Purchasing power is purchasing winning.

You're saying the same thing, only there's not such a negative connotation to it because it's literally just been invented for a not-as-bad situation.

Its the politically correct way to say it without offending anyone.