May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[MrNukes]

ok here are my suggestions for balanceing the rhino's iron skin but first my thoughts on the potential update.

 

i believe your update will make rhino usless for higher level missions where making enemies agressive to him will turnout to make using the move more of a con then a pro for the fact that the invincibility will be gone in mere seconds and his health soon after. This update to the rihno will in many ways be a step back from what it is now.

 

 

here are my following suggestions.

 

1.Make iron skin grant full invincibility for at max five seconds this will allow users to deal some damage without become overpowered. An increase in the energy needed to cast iron skin is also a acceptale trade off.

              

               -the short time will allow the rhino to deliver a good amount of damage to a mob in a short time without taking damage as well as not    become a crutch players can constantly spam because of its short duration.

               -the short invincibility also allows the rhino to revive team members in the heat of battle safely like when pull is used to bring an ally to cover to revive him. it also allows the slower moving rhino to get to a safe place when he is in many instances left behind by the faster warframes and must fend for himself.

 

2.make iron skin have 90% damage resistance or 95% or something along those lines but reduce the amount of time active. and do not make the move generate aggro.

 

              -this works because it does not give him invincibility something rhino users love and everyone else thinks is OP but it allows rhino to become very durable and makes him competitive to Frost who in all instances now seems to be a better warframe then rhino. so while their may be some people who hate it mabey both sides hate it just enough that it balances out and people stop complaining.

 

3. keep iron skin the way it is and just buff the shield recharge of the warframe.

           

              -ok so this may not make many rhino players happy at first but im sure other people will likely not complain(as much). in time though with a significant buff to the recharge time of shields rhino players will learn to love it and it could actually make rhino once again a desirable warframe to many players looking for a heavier build compared to ash the melee king atm or frost an all around better warframe then rhino atm. its not ideal for both sides but it seems like an ok inbetween.

Edited May 22, 2013 by MrNukes

[Ithloniel]

Personally, I have found Rhino close to useless since the initial nerf, and I don't feel this fixes things.  He was meant to be a CC tank, but his CC role is underwhelming and his tank abilities have just been cut down substantially.  As far as I can tell, his whole ability tree needs to be reconsidered except for Rhino Charge...

 

1) Rhino Stomp. While it is nice to make stuff float in the air around you, this seems to be an ongoing theme with WF abilities.  Rhino's ability, while lasting a good amount of time, just doesn't execute as effectively as other AoEs that do much the same thing. My thoughts?  Make the enemies not only get thrown into the air, but towards the Rhino as well. This allows for the Rhino to break out into melee and hack away as bodies fly through the air within the radius towards the Rhino, or use it in combination with Rhino Charge and keep charging through the big pile of enemies.  It also collects the enemies close together to provide easy targets for teammates, effectively serving as quality CC.

2) Radial Blast: Up the damage, or make it function opposite to Rhino Stomp by knocking enemies backwards on top of the knockdown it already causes.  This grants the Rhino space from enemy fire and spreads the enemies around for other Tenno to pick off one by one.  Another form of good CC.

3) Iron Skin: Screw shield recharge. That was a lame exploit to begin with. Give invulnerability for a certain amount of time, along with a taunt mechanic, and it becomes a proper CC skill. On top of that, make it so shield recharge CANNOT occur during Iron Skin. Also, knockdowns shouldn't work during Iron Skin, but that was a given. Increase cost of Iron Skin to 75.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts/opinions.  Dunno if they will be helpful or not, but I'd thought I'd give it a shot.  I really love the idea behind the Rhino frame and I hope it can live up to the role of being a strong tank and CC WF.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Ithloniel

[Scrcrw]

I'm afraid of any new "changes", because right now Banshee has a suicide button and if I need a Rhino I pull out Trinity.

 

I don't want to sound aggressive but if DE actually read players' feedback, then how come they managed to come up with a solution that's even worse than the previous.. Still love the communication with the community though. Also just leveled a Trinity frame too since I found Rhino gameplay fun. Haven't had a single complaint in groups I played with when I mowed down mobs with my Fragor. And yet there are still some who say that Rhino's IS is OP when Trinity can easily maintain a better version of IS with endless energy pool and Link with just high rank Streamline mod.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Scrcrw

[Ganpot]

Allow me to toss around a few ideas I've not seen represented elsewhere regarding Rhino (which I use as my main character).  If you are sick and tired of hearing about Rhino, then by all means skip my post. 

 

Overview: Rhino's theoretical role seems to be tanking.  He is slow but incredibly durable, and had the only sustained invincibility in the game.  However, most of his abilities don't acknowledge this role, which seems odd to me. 

 

Abilities:

Rhino Charge - the animation is the same as before, but reduce the damage by 50% and add a 5 meter circular area of effect at the end of the charge.  Every enemy Rhino hits then does 50% less damage for 6 seconds. 

Resoning - The damage of this ability is already sub-par, and doesn't fit with Rhino's tanky playstyle.  With the alterations, the ability can be effectively used as either an escape ability or as a way to close in on enemies and ensure less damage is dealt to him and allies. 

 

Iron Skin - keep the complete invincibility (and the 15 second max duration), but up the energy cost to 75.  Furthermore, all damage by the player while using this ability is decreased by 40%. 

Reasoning - People spam this ability because there is no downside to it (and Rhino's other abilities are not worth using).  Giving the ability a downside will emphasize its intended purpose: protecting teammates (or a defense objective) during a hectic fight. 

 

Radial Blast - rename this to Taunt or something, make the energy cost 50, and have it force all enemies to attack Rhino for 12 seconds (duration is debatable). 

Reasoning - Rhino had the best anti-damage ability in the game, but absolutely no way of ensuring that enemies prioritized him over teammates.  This fixes that problem, and allows nice combos with Rhino Charge and Iron Skin. 

 

Rhino Stomp - Instead of the current ability, Rhino stops time across the entire map (just keep the same animation) for a max of 8 seconds.  During this time, only players may act. 

Reasoning - the vanilla ability was almost equivalent to a jump attack with a heavy melee weapon, which was disappointing.  An ultra-ability needs to be impressive, and it needed to fit a defensive role (because Rhino should be the pure tank).  This made the most sense to me: it is the ultimate panic button for when teammates are in danger.  Eight seconds is enough time to get to safety or regain control of a situation, but not enough time to clear a map of enemies.  If the ability is overpowered, reducing the duration to 7 seconds or increasing the energy cost to 125 or even 150 might be an option. 

[BigSchmexy]

Allow me to toss around a few ideas I've not seen represented elsewhere regarding Rhino (which I use as my main character).  If you are sick and tired of hearing about Rhino, then by all means skip my post. 

 

Overview: Rhino's theoretical role seems to be tanking.  He is slow but incredibly durable, and had the only sustained invincibility in the game.  However, most of his abilities don't acknowledge this role, which seems odd to me. 

 

Abilities:

Rhino Charge - the animation is the same as before, but reduce the damage by 50% and add a 5 meter circular area of effect at the end of the charge.  Every enemy Rhino hits then does 50% less damage for 6 seconds. 

Resoning - The damage of this ability is already sub-par, and doesn't fit with Rhino's tanky playstyle.  With the alterations, the ability can be effectively used as either an escape ability or as a way to close in on enemies and ensure less damage is dealt to him and allies. 

 

Iron Skin - keep the complete invincibility (and the 15 second max duration), but up the energy cost to 75.  Furthermore, all damage by the player while using this ability is decreased by 40%. 

Reasoning - People spam this ability because there is no downside to it (and Rhino's other abilities are not worth using).  Giving the ability a downside will emphasize its intended purpose: protecting teammates (or a defense objective) during a hectic fight. 

 

Radial Blast - rename this to Taunt or something, make the energy cost 50, and have it force all enemies to attack Rhino for 12 seconds (duration is debatable). 

Reasoning - Rhino had the best anti-damage ability in the game, but absolutely no way of ensuring that enemies prioritized him over teammates.  This fixes that problem, and allows nice combos with Rhino Charge and Iron Skin. 

 

Rhino Stomp - Instead of the current ability, Rhino stops time across the entire map (just keep the same animation) for a max of 8 seconds.  During this time, only players may act. 

Reasoning - the vanilla ability was almost equivalent to a jump attack with a heavy melee weapon, which was disappointing.  An ultra-ability needs to be impressive, and it needed to fit a defensive role (because Rhino should be the pure tank).  This made the most sense to me: it is the ultimate panic button for when teammates are in danger.  Eight seconds is enough time to get to safety or regain control of a situation, but not enough time to clear a map of enemies.  If the ability is overpowered, reducing the duration to 7 seconds or increasing the energy cost to 125 or even 150 might be an option. 

I main as Rhino as well and while IS at 75 and back to normal was already thrown the 40% damage reduction would be terrible I know this is a co-op game but sometimes people want to or have to play solo and at high levels and the reduction would make it very ineffective and rhinos ult costing all his energy at rank 30 (so you couldn't use at lower levels) unless you have flow or streamline seems very skewed. I don't have a problem with the other two suggestions.

[Ganpot]

I main as Rhino as well and while IS at 75 and back to normal was already thrown the 40% damage reduction would be terrible I know this is a co-op game but sometimes people want to or have to play solo and at high levels and the reduction would make it very ineffective and rhinos ult costing all his energy at rank 30 (so you couldn't use at lower levels) unless you have flow or streamline seems very skewed. I don't have a problem with the other two suggestions.

I understand why you wouldn't be thrilled by the 40% player damage reduction, but consider this: a tank should never be the main damage dealer.  A tank's job is to soak up damage and keep the enemies' attention.  Granted, 40% might be a bit harsh.  But the overall concept would force players to strike a balance between offense and defense.  Iron Skin would go from an ability spammed ceaselessly to an ability activated after careful consideration (usually after taking heavy damage).  That adds depth, in my opinion. 

 

I would prefer Rhino Stomp to stay at a 100 energy cost.  However, I can see people arguing about whether the ability would be overpowered, so I gave advice on potential ways to avoid being too powerful. 

 

I won't deny that my changes would make Rhino more team-oriented.  Honestly, I consider that a plus.  The game needs more inherent team-work.

[Vorpalstryke]

I feel I want to reiterate that the problem most people have with Iron Skin is the spammability of it so returning it to its original complete invulnerability but making it cost 100 energy would easily solve the problem and put it in line with everyone else's ultimate abilities. Radial Blast can then be lowered to slot 2 and cost 50 energy and if they added some range and put the aggro mechanic on this instead, it would be great. Rhino Stomp can then be moved to slot 3 and cost 75 energy, the same as Vaughban's #3. Rhino players will be satisfied with this. Non-Rhino players may still be unhappy but they really aren't affected as they don't play Rhinos anyway.

I fear the precedence this sets if the Rhino-haters win this nerf war. This means that anyone and everyone's favorite abilities are open for nerfing if enough people whine and complain that the ability is too powerful. Excalibur's Slash Dash? Nerf it! Trinity's Link? Nerf it! Loki and Ash's invisibility? Too powerful, nerf them suckers! Nyx's already nerfed #3? Nerf it some more! Ember's World on Fire? Nerf it until it only lights up the room! Frost's Snow Globe? Nerf it like Iron Skin! Bashee's Sound Quake? Too powerful, nerf it to only affect 80% of the enemies and can get knocked down (oh wait they did that already but they called it a bug and Banshees everywhere cried like us sad Rhinos). And so on and so forth until we are left with generic frames that don't really stand out and the abilities are just for show. This is not a good thing for anyone. Please let's not fall under the pressure of listening to the trolls and haters. We need to improve abilities until they fall in line with each other and people are satisfied with their own frames so pettiness and jealousy becomes less of a problem.

[Scrcrw]

I feel I want to reiterate...

 

That's what I'm wondering too. Why do such severe nerfs even exist in a PVE COOP game. There's no balancing for PVP to do. It sounds more sane to improve other frames' abilities if they're lackluster.

[Ganpot]

That's what I'm wondering too. Why do such severe nerfs even exist in a PVE COOP game. There's no balancing for PVP to do. It sounds more sane to improve other frames' abilities if they're lackluster.

Many people seem to have the assumption that PvE games do not require balance.  That is an incorrect assumption for various reasons.  A class or ability which is deemed underpowered by the majority of players will see less use than ones which are deemed overpowered, thus creating more monotony.  It does not matter whether a game is PvE or PvP.  Players will always seek to be the best, because that is human nature. 

 

Consider Frost.  He is used in almost all high-level defense farming missions, because he is optimal.  This creates monotony, becuase the strategy never changes.  A good dev team should try to make every class (and multiple play-styles) equally optimal, but in different ways (I never said it was easy). 

 

The second thing one must understand is that buffs and nerfs are both relative.  Buffing all but one class will result in a net nerf to the unbuffed class.  The method is different, but the outcome is the same.  No game system exists in a vacuum. 

[K1LLZ0NE]

Many people seem to have the assumption that PvE games do not require balance.  That is an incorrect assumption for various reasons.  A class or ability which is deemed underpowered by the majority of players will see less use than ones which are deemed overpowered, thus creating more monotony.  It does not matter whether a game is PvE or PvP.  Players will always seek to be the best, because that is human nature. 

 

Consider Frost.  He is used in almost all high-level defense farming missions, because he is optimal.  This creates monotony, becuase the strategy never changes.  A good dev team should try to make every class (and multiple play-styles) equally optimal, but in different ways (I never said it was easy). 

 

The second thing one must understand is that buffs and nerfs are both relative.  Buffing all but one class will result in a net nerf to the unbuffed class.  The method is different, but the outcome is the same.  No game system exists in a vacuum. 

 

While it is true that a PvE game needs balance, only things that break the game need to be nerfed.  At least while there are more important bugs/features to work on.  Iron Skin was not so OP that it broke the game.  Not even close.  Rhino was the first 'frame I got.  I hardly knew anything about it.  I just loved the way he looked.  And after using him a lot, I really enjoyed it.  However, I decided I wanted to try new things, and even thought that other 'frames could do some of the things Rhino did, but better.  So I branched out with Frost.  He was also super fun to play and again I eventually felt I wanted to branch out.  So I got Ash, Volt etc etc.  Rhino was never so OP that all anyone wanted to do was play him.

[Ganpot]

While it is true that a PvE game needs balance, only things that break the game need to be nerfed.  At least while there are more important bugs/features to work on.  Iron Skin was not so OP that it broke the game.  Not even close.  Rhino was the first 'frame I got.  I hardly knew anything about it.  I just loved the way he looked.  And after using him a lot, I really enjoyed it.  However, I decided I wanted to try new things, and even thought that other 'frames could do some of the things Rhino did, but better.  So I branched out with Frost.  He was also super fun to play and again I eventually felt I wanted to branch out.  So I got Ash, Volt etc etc.  Rhino was never so OP that all anyone wanted to do was play him.

I understand and actually agree.  Iron Skin wouldn't have been first on my list of abilities to nerf.  However, it is a really powerful ability, and people were calling for nerfs to it.  Part of the problem is that the devs didn't fully anticipate what their changes would do to Rhino (in my opinion).  The optimal scenario was (and still is) to nerf Iron Skin slightly in order to make it something which is tactical in nature (instead of just something to spam in every fight), and simultaneously buff Rhino's other abilities to compensate for that nerf.  Which is what my previous feedback suggested. 

[Zarozian]

So what have the devs decided on doing with Rhino's Iron Skin? Restore it to how it was before or change it again in some way that won't change how Rhino is supposed to be played?

[TheSteroid]

Any ETA on Update 8? Any window of time would be greatly appreciated!

 

will update 8 be out before the founders program ends?

Edited May 22, 2013 by TheSteroid

[Phoenix86]

Finally found the Rebecca's post... so basically it's the old Iron Skin with a damage timer.

I hope it can be increased with mods (continuity or focus maybe?) else 800 is really low when monsters are lvl 40+...

It's basically 6-8 hits and it's gone (like 2-3 secs invulnerability?) LOL

 

PS: does the 80% dmg reduction stays or gone?

[Phoenix86]

This 800 dmg reduction thing is a joke imho...

 

Monsters lvl 40+ (when basically Iron Skin starts to be needed to use) deal 100+ dmg/hit... absorbing 800 means it will last 1-3 seconds at best in meele range rofl, it is even worse than 80% flat reduction, at least it was 20 sec lol!!

 

Devs... seriously: leave the 80% reduction, remove this dmg cap and restore the immunity to CC/poison/drain effects. that's it.

 

PS: the aggro mechanic is GOOD.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Phoenix86

[Asla]

Anyway, we shouldn't expect U8 this week i guess?

[Zogg]

to DE: How about reverting IS to it's original state just for the moment until there is time to really put focus on it (and Rhino's abilitys altogether).  For now you seem really occupied with preperations for the upcoming Update and while I really appreciate the communication and new ideas for IS I would much rather see a rework in combination with his whole ability set so they can fit together and not that IS is reworked now (in a hurry) and has later to be changed again to fit buff or at least change in his other powers.

Like many people said: a return of IS with its old invul but increased Energycost would be appreciated. Make it just for now as a temporary solution until there is time to really work on it.

Regarding his other abilitys:
Even if Rhino Charge is the same as Excal's Slash Dash I personally like it but it really needs to charge through the ennemies and not stop randomly at a normal grineer/infested and not even knock them down. A knockdown on a boss would also be great (or a ministun at least)

Radial Blast: I don't know but I would just drop it. Radial Blast and Rhino Stomp seem to do the same job for me with RS looking better and being more efficiant. A new Power that could work with an eloboratet abilityset could be better, but that's just my opinion.

Rhino Stomp: it is nice it elevates the ennemies so everybody has good sight and cn shoot them, but for 100 energy (like mentioned) it is a bit of a lackluster. How about adding a damage increase to it ? Like *affected ennemies take 1.4/1.6/1.8/2.0 times the damage from all sources (except rhino perhaps?)* (numbers just for showing the idea). That would give him some more utility in a teamfight and would scale accordingly to the player level/weapon level.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Zogg

[vonDirk]

About OP Iron Skin:

Non-Rhino players thinks, that full invulnerability are too strong? But! Consider that thing, that Rhino is SLOW! He can't protect teammates, like Frost. He can't heal like Trinity. He can't rush with incredible speed like Volt, Ash or Loki to get cover/get close to enemy (yeah, you CAN use Rhino Charge, but it's +25 energy - and it's with low energy pool or Rhino). Rhino's Iron Skin is LOOKS like overpowered on Infested Missions, when all enemies are charge towards you with bloodlust - and you can stay alive even if you can't take cover or slow them down (Frost is slow too, but he can put Snow Globe/Ice Wave and slow enemies down, so he can get some time to get to high spot. And he have more armor and more speed with Aurora then Rhino with Thrak). Iron Skin was his ultimate ability. Someone says "Give it 5 secs duration, it will be ok", but think about one thing - how long it takes to revive ally? Iron Skin is way to get some time to get to your buddy, revive him and give him some time till you distract enemies. Not "Hey, I'm going to revive you and die, so you have choice: try to revive me too and die with me or run away". Rhino are not a consumable revive. He must be powerful ally, not some fat useless guy. Because now - he is. Yes, HE IS USELESS in team fights. Because usually I'm going to play with my friends and we discuss, with what frames we are going to play. And I NEVER heard "Hey, took your Rhino, we might need him" after that patch. Usually it sound "It's going to be hard, get your Frost/Banshee" or "We need stun, so Excalibur will be better". 

Rhino is my favorite warframe. He looks cool, I like his design the most. He supposed to be the tankiest tank and the Big Bro. He doesn't suppose to be mass-killer - and he wasn't. I've played 49% of my playtime with Rhino - and i have 1500 kills. I've played with my Banshee 12-14% - and i have more then 5000 kills! Rhino WASN'T OP. He was great frame when you play with new players and they need some rare materials, and you can give them a hand without thinking "Nah, he is noob, i don't want bother if he will die", you think "He is new player. If he will be killed, I could revive him no matter what - and I'll be alive to/it's not a suicide".

 

Rhino is not a tank either. He is complete support frame (before, now he is some kind of inferior Excalibur, fat, slow and can't do nothing special). Iron Skin was his "Let's me help ya, my fallen comrade"-button, Rhino Stomp was (and is, actually) "Have some rest/Kill that boss bastard, guys!"-button. You may argue that Rhino Stomp have huge radius (but deals no damage, even on lvl 1 enemies, because I've test that on Terminus(Mercury) - and anyone, who have Rhino can do the same. My Ult do NOTHING to enemies, whom my Wyrm shred in pieces with few bullets. And the range of Rhino Stomp is just substitute to "Hey, I;m to far from battlefield, because i'm too slow, and my teammates are in danger, so i need to Stomp and pray, that it will affects enemies far away".

 

Someone said, Radial Blast have good damage and radius - but again, you need to be in heart of battle! You need to be surrounded with your enemies - or you will never use this power. Ice Wave is too situational, but MUCH MORE useful! And it's not like "Nerf Ice Wave", it's "How things should be working".

 

This is COOP PvE game. You need balance, yes, but you need reasonable balance. When single corpus crewman at 20+ wave on Kiliken need 6 shots from HEK - it's not like i'm feeling myself confident with. And i'll better took Frost, who have ranged protection, good damage skills - and could use them for whole team's efficiency without putting himself into danger. Rhino is a suicide-guy now. Or you need to run away anytime you heard about danger, find darkest corner and hide there, waiting till your teammates deal with the danger, because it's safer, quicker and gives them more affinity.

 

I was played Rhino a lot. I wan't using Iron Skin a lot. It's not "push-to-win" button, because if you think so - you are not Rhinos. You are DEAD Rhinos. Iron Skin is a tricky skill. Like Trinities Link, it allows you to get into mess and draw some aggro from your teammates or revive you fallen buddy. But it didn't allow you to kill them in one blow or to be invulnerable forever. You need ENERGY to have your protection. Trinity need 125 energy to have her Link and Energy Vampire to be effective, and Energy Vampire restore 100 energy. Yeah, you can increase that amount, you can use some tricks with mods - but that's a way YOU playing. It's not something like "This ability too cool", it's like "This ability allow you to feel yourself cool". And Trinity dies too. She need energy too, she need a lot of energy. So do Rhino. Yeah, you CAN have build all around Iron Skin. But it wouldn't help you on higher levels. You will die in agony if you didn't find energy. You need 4 energy siphons to be efficient - and that's mean you need full party, who will play with you. And IF you use only Iron Skin - how useful you will be for that party and how often they will play with you? Well, I think, few times - then you will be doomed to play all alone - because no one want to see guy, who do nothing, but running with shiny armor. And if you are USEFUL - why you need to get that thing away?

----

So, about balancing things: Nyx now is even better than Rhino for CC. She can create Chaos. She can Mind Control Ancient Healer - and restore like 200-300 health for whole team. She can Mind Control Toxic - and save her team from poison. And she can use Absorb to restore her shields - and allow other teammates hide into force field while enemies trying to shoot them - and power up her Ult damage output. Maybe her Bolts are not so useful (didn't test them yet), but my teammate, who played with Nyx are in love with that skill - and it does triple damage against infested, normal against Ancients and have auto-aim, if Wiki is right. Any 'frame is better then Rhino in dealing damage. And Frost is better as Tank then Rhino.

 

So you need not to nerf Rhino, but revise his abilities:

Rhino Charge are quite good, but i'm almost all the time use it as initial move or fast-run move, when i need to get close to my faster teammates. It's not so good - but for 25 energy it's enough.

 

Iron Skin - was usually a lifesaver skill, allowing you to hide, to revive a fallen ally, to restore Shields - like Jack-of-All-Trades. It's worth to be his Ultimate ability, really - if you get back it's previous properties and features (and yes, it wan't completely invulnerable, this crawlers can blurp on you, and even when you iron-skinned you make "Oh, that's disgusting!!!" and stunned for 1.5-2 seconds). Not sure about aggro, because if you need it to revive your teammate - you don't need to attract all Ancient Toxics and Disruptors near. The best thing - put it into 75 energy or 100 energy with, maybe, 10-12 seconds duration and without aggro.

 

Radial Blast - leave the damage as is, gives knockback too, maybe some aggro (with increased range without damage), reduce cost to 50 energy. This will be great thing to save your teammates while attracting fire to your - and this will force you to use both Iron Skin and Radial Blast to save your teammates and yourself, especially on Corpus/Greenir missons, where only one Heavy Gunner can rip you in pieces for few seconds.

EX:What about completely change this ability to something like those Shield Osprey have? Increase Shields of your allies within some range and/or redirect aggro from them to you?

 

Rhino Stomp - it's already a very handy ability in teamfights - and almost useless when solo because of energy cost. Add some minor damage (at least, enough, to kill that Rollers!), increase range (it's Ultimate ability, why not?) and duration (at least, for mentioned 9 seconds, like it should be, if Wiki have right data). And yeah, some pulling power will be very handy! With that - it will be quite powerful ability.

----

This changes don't need any serious work, can be done quickly and use existing game mechanics. This will be enough to deal with those, who want to spam Iron Skin (higher cost, lower duration, more useful skills, which require energy too) if they don't have a Trinity in their team.... Well, if they HAVE a Trinity - you need to nerf ANY warframe, because all of them can spam their skills, if they want =) But that's a point - it's not a real life or sports tournament. It's a ninja game! And ninjas need to be cool! ;)

Edited May 22, 2013 by vonDirk

[Loswaith]

Plase hear me out, there is a fair bit of food for thought here.

Ok personally I like the new concept; the taunt and damage shield. I dont play Rhino, however I never thought Ironskin was OP either.

 

Taking a few factors from peoples comments:

Damage and timer aspect:

  This isnt new both Loki's decoy and Saryns moult have this same aspect.

 

800 damage is 'nothing'/too low:

  This isn't an inherant issue with Rhino's proposed Ironskin.  If 800 points of surviveability is trivial, that inherantly would mean 800 shields is trivial for every Warframe in the game, given warframes max out at around 500-1200 thats a good hunk of them.  So the inherant issue isn't Ironskin getting only 800 points of absorption, but an issue of the damage being dealt at high levels.

Reguardless of what actually absorbs the damage, be it Ironskin, shields or health, it will be an issue of taking 800+ damage in a small time frame.

 

This also gives DE mixed messages when people mention the game being 'too easy'.  800 damage absorbtion being a trivial amount and the game being 'too easy' sound mutually exclusive to me given shield ratings on warframes.

 

The upside being that while Rhino is taking the 800 damage his shields are regenerating enabling him to take further damage.

 

Taunt:

  The taunt aspect proposed to be added to Ironskin is a huge tactical bonus to Rhino as a group player.  I personally can see many uses where drawing all the fire from a certain point would be a good thing for the group as a whole (maybe not so much for a stat hunter Rhino).  Particullarly if Rhino then ducks behind cover (or moving from cover to cover) so he isnt taking damage (or even much damage) at all.  This leaves the rest of his team to clean up enemies with impunity.

Consider this when coupled with Nyx's Absorb.

 

The coupled taunt and damage absorption aspect then also leaves the need to put some thought into how and when to use Ironskin, personaly a good thing for Rhino, who realy isnt that subtle or complex a frame anyway.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Loswaith

[Phoenix86]

Plase hear me out, there is a fair bit of food for thought here.

Ok personally I like the new concept; the taunt and damage shield. I dont play Rhino, however I never thought Ironskin was OP either.

 

Taking a few factors from peoples comments:

Damage and timer aspect:

  This isnt new both Loki's decoy and Saryns moult have this same aspect.

 

800 damage is 'nothing'/too low:

  This isn't an inherant issue with Rhino's proposed Ironskin.  If 800 points of surviveability is trivial, that inherantly would mean 800 shields is trivial for every Warframe in the game, given warframes max out at around 500-1200 thats a good hunk of them.  So the inherant issue isn't Ironskin getting only 800 points of absorption, but an issue of the damage being dealt at high levels.

Reguardless of what actually absorbs the damage, be it Ironskin, shields or health, it will be an issue of taking 800+ damage in a small time frame.

 

This also gives DE mixed messages when people mention the game being 'too easy'.  800 damage absorbtion being a trivial amount and the game being 'too easy' sound mutually exclusive to me given shield ratings on warframes.

 

The upside being that while Rhino is taking the 800 damage his shields are regenerating enabling him to take further damage.

 

Taunt:

  The taunt aspect proposed to be added to Ironskin is a huge tactical bonus to Rhino as a group player.  I personally can see many uses where drawing all the fire from a certain point would be a good thing for the group as a whole (maybe not so much for a stat hunter Rhino).  Particullarly if Rhino then ducks behind cover (or moving from cover to cover) so he isnt taking damage (or even much damage) at all.  This leaves the rest of his team to clean up enemies with impunity.

Consider this when coupled with Nyx's Absorb.

 

The coupled taunt and damage absorption aspect then also leaves the need to put some thought into how and when to use Ironskin, personaly a good thing for Rhino, who realy isnt that subtle or complex a frame anyway.

 

Since you havent played Rhino i'm not surprised about this, i'll explaine you why on Rhino are Trivial but at the same time 800 is a "high value" for any other frame.

 

The problem is play style: We say 800 are low because Rhino w/Iron Skin play like this:

 

"Oh there are 9 lvl 50+ ancients rushing at my team, let's go meele and block them!"

 

Imagine those ancients's dmg output in meele range... they'll drain ur 800 absorb in 1-2 seconds.

 

On the other side a frame that kites those ancients while shooting with his rifle at distance could say "Man with this 800 extra shields points none can hurt me!"

 

The problem is the playstyle, Rhino goes meele! that's why 800 is not enough! You could understand this only if you played it many hours trust me.

If i have to go as a ranged Rhino, kiting like all the other than i'd pick another frame, not him.

Rhino, the coward kiting tank, lol.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Phoenix86

[Lyker]

Devs please be sure to include ALL changes that are made.

 

In this case that the Sound Quake range has also been affected.

[Otakuwolf]

I think they intentionally held off the reset until they made this market change, So we couldn't just start over and take advantage of the mistakes we made in the past. We now have to suffer the fate of farming alloy. -.-

 

 

Also, There is nothing to review with Rhino. He needs his invincibility back, raise the cost to 75 so it can't be spammed anymore. And his other skills need more attention. That was it all along, his other skills were weak and lackluster. Ironskin was always fine and served it's purpose.

 

Exactly

[Phoenix86]

Just to throw in this other idea:

 

#1 Rhino Charge - No changes

#2 Radial Blast - Damage equal to Frost's Ice Wave, cost 50

#3 Rhino Stomp - Reduce by 2 sec on all levels the "lifted duration", cost 75

#4 Iron Skin (Ultimate) - Working as the original one, add the new high priority mechanic, cost 100

 

Easy as that.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Phoenix86

[Tigercloud]

Just wanted to say thanks so much for reasoned and responsive feedback. Another voice to that chorus ;)

[Lombax47]

7) ... but what about Rhino?

He will be reviewed and changed!

 

May 21st @ 2:00 PM EST UPDATE:

The following changes are being made:

1) He will now again have full invulnerability, but up to a damage (d) cap of: 200 d, 400 d, 600 d, and 800 d based on mod rank.  Thoughts?

2) He now aggro's enemies to draw fire by using Iron Skin, as enemies now see him as a big threat!

 

Expect these in an upcoming Update.

 

As a Rhino user, I find this would be a good solution as many other Rhino players I was crushed and wouldn't play Warframe till he was 'Fixed', this seems a great option yes but don't put the damage cap to low please, 800 is way to low. At higher levels 800 damage absorbtion won't help you at all. 

 

Also his Radial blast's damage needs a buff, it says in the description of the mod "high damage in that area" though the damage is kind of low, my full Ranked Radial blast required 3 hits for a Crewman of level 15. He's other ability's are fine.

 

Other than that the suggestions to the update look good.

 

 Ps: because there are so many people saying the game is "to easy" how about adding a difficulty, when changed it does not effect the mobs, rather it effects the frame by making some abilities cost more, do less damage and maybe removing invincibility (from main abilities) at the hardest difficulty?

Edited May 22, 2013 by Amulame