May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[Lombax47]

Just to throw in this other idea:

 

#1 Rhino Charge - No changes

#2 Radial Blast - Damage equal to Frost's Ice Wave, cost 50

#3 Rhino Stomp - Reduce by 2 sec on all levels the "lifted duration", cost 75

#4 Iron Skin (Ultimate) - Working as the original one, add the new high priority mechanic, cost 100

 

Easy as that.

This could work but then the damage cap to Iron skin would have to be removed, I still agree to the 'Aggro' part.

When Iron skin is active all enemy's mainly focus on the user.

[Phoenix86]

This could work but then the damage cap to Iron skin would have to be removed, I still agree to the 'Aggro' part.

When Iron skin is active all enemy's mainly focus on the user.

 

Yes ofc dmg cap must be removed, if necessary also reduce IS duration or make it not affected by continuity if it's still to OP, i dont mind

[Zeddypanda]

Your math is off.  Streamline is a power efficiency mod, not a cost reduction mod.  Iron skin costs 39 energy to cast with maxed streamline.  At best you could get 7 uses with a max flow energy pool.

Okay, so he calculated the cost for 40 instead of 39. I wrote a short python script to simulate for us:

 

Cast 1

300 - 39 = 261

261 + 30 = 291

Cast 2

291 - 39 = 252

252 + 30 = 282

Cast 3

282 - 39 = 243

243 + 30 = 273

Cast 4

273 - 39 = 234

234 + 30 = 264

Cast 5

264 - 39 = 225

225 + 30 = 255

Cast 6

255 - 39 = 216

216 + 30 = 246

Cast 7

246 - 39 = 207

207 + 30 = 237

Cast 8

237 - 39 = 198

198 + 30 = 228

Cast 9

228 - 39 = 189

189 + 30 = 219

Cast 10

219 - 39 = 180

180 + 30 = 210

Cast 11

210 - 39 = 171

171 + 30 = 201

Cast 12

201 - 39 = 162

162 + 30 = 192

Cast 13

192 - 39 = 153

153 + 30 = 183

Cast 14

183 - 39 = 144

144 + 30 = 174

Cast 15

174 - 39 = 135

135 + 30 = 165

Cast 16

165 - 39 = 126

126 + 30 = 156

Cast 17

156 - 39 = 117

117 + 30 = 147

Cast 18

147 - 39 = 108

108 + 30 = 138

Cast 19

138 - 39 = 99

99 + 30 = 129

Cast 20

129 - 39 = 90

90 + 30 = 120

Cast 21

120 - 39 = 81

81 + 30 = 111

Cast 22

111 - 39 = 72

72 + 30 = 102

Cast 23

102 - 39 = 63

63 + 30 = 93

Cast 24

93 - 39 = 54

54 + 30 = 84

Cast 25

84 - 39 = 45

45 + 30 = 75

Cast 26

75 - 39 = 36

36 + 30 = 66

Cast 27

66 - 39 = 27

27 + 30 = 57

Cast 28

57 - 39 = 18

18 + 30 = 48

Cast 29

48 - 39 = 9

9 + 30 = 39

Cast 30

39 - 39 = 0

0 + 30 = 30

Remaining power is 30. Cannot cast again.

Total time of invincibility: 450 seconds

Edited May 22, 2013 by Zeddypanda

[Lyker]

I have searched by I cannot find a good discussion about Banshee's slots.

Can anyone point me in a good direction?

 

Basiclly I think 2 x V slot is a waste becosue there are only 2 V mods and one of them dosnt even affect all her kills.

[Phoenix86]

ANYTHING CAN BE INSANE... with 4*Energy Siphons, that's a total different problem so dont come with it to demonstrate IS is unbalanced...

 

Imagine 4 excaliburs with 4 energy siphons, maxed flow/streamline/focus/continuity... imagine them slash dashing (you are invincible while doing it, did you know?)

 

So leave Energy Siphone out of the problem.

[bakaxy]

Such a low proposed dmg cap for iron skin...is everyone only playing low level missions?

Especially with added aggro it would be drained in an instant...

 

Just give back the old version, it was perfectly fine...

Edited May 22, 2013 by bakaxy

[blood_of_blood]

hi all plesss can any one told me what to do with the info every time i opne the game hi tell me check your info . plessss any help me :(

[Loswaith]

Since you havent played Rhino i'm not surprised about this, i'll explaine you why on Rhino are Trivial but at the same time 800 is a "high value" for any other frame.

 

The problem is play style: We say 800 are low because Rhino w/Iron Skin play like this:

 

"Oh there are 9 lvl 50+ ancients rushing at my team, let's go meele and block them!"

 

Imagine those ancients's dmg output in meele range... they'll drain ur 800 absorb in 1-2 seconds.

 

On the other side a frame that kites those ancients while shooting with his rifle at distance could say "Man with this 800 extra shields points none can hurt me!"

 

The problem is the playstyle, Rhino goes meele! that's why 800 is not enough! You could understand this only if you played it many hours trust me.

If i have to go as a ranged Rhino, kiting like all the other than i'd pick another frame, not him.

Rhino, the coward kiting tank, lol.

No offence, but thats purely naive to think that Rhino is the only melee warframe, or that he can only be built for melee, however he is the only warframe with Ironskin.  Any frame going melee with the anchients will have the same issue not just Rhino.  Though because of Rhino's shields, armour and ironskin (even with it only taking 800+ damage) he is likely to come out better than every other frame (which as a tank he should).

 

There is a reason that you get 2 ranged weapons and a melee weapon.  Trying to take on 9, level 50+ Anchients at their strongest element (ie Melee range) isn't in the slightest a clever maneuver (Rhino isnt an idiot why play him as one?).  Ever think that's maybe why people think he is OP, because he could simply do silly things and walk away because of Ironskin and maybe why DE decided to change him.

 

An alternative instead of running into them you can use the Ironskin to taunt them and move them away from the group while all the team shoots them instead of you blocking half the other peoples shots, that 1-2 seconds you may actually kill all of them as a group.   Your part of a team, it's not just about personal glory all the time.

 

There are not only Melee enemies in the game either, infact 2 of the 3 current factions are ranged.

 

I dont play Rhino because he is of little tactical use compared to other frames, this one thing could change that.  Trivialising peoples comment because you dont think they have "played him", is near sighted and only going to hurt your cause more than fixing the issues.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Loswaith

[Seanjuju]

As a Rhino user, I find this would be a good solution as many other Rhino players I was crushed and wouldn't play Warframe till he was 'Fixed', this seems a great option yes but don't put the damage cap to low please, 200 is way to low, 800 maybe 1000 sounds fine. 

 

Also his Radial blast's damage needs a buff, it says in the description of the mod "high damage in that area" though the damage is kind of low, my full Ranked Radial blast required 3 hits for a Crewman of level 15. He's other ability's are fine.

 

Other than that the suggestions to the update look good.

I think your overlooking the effect that aggro will have. (edit) As it will inevitably become a huge liability, I've begun to conclude that aggro can't be used in a lesser energy skill.

 

Just to throw in this other idea:

 

#1 Rhino Charge - No changes

#2 Radial Blast - Damage equal to Frost's Ice Wave, cost 50

#3 Rhino Stomp - Reduce by 2 sec on all levels the "lifted duration", cost 75

#4 Iron Skin (Ultimate) - Working as the original one, add the new high priority mechanic, cost 100

 

Easy as that.

1. Rhino charge

2. Radial blast

3. Iron Skin- As a 3rd ability- Aggro, Scaled Damage Cap, reduced fire rate of mobs for 8 seconds after being aggroed, 70% damage reduction 

                   -(the shimmer of the skin attracts anything that can see the light)

                   -(mobs may be aggroed at any time and are then 'intimidated')

                   -Skin begins to take damage as a % of max after 8 seconds

                   -The damage cap should be calculated as 45-60% of the sum of hp and shield + 300.

4. Rhino stomp- Larger radius, enemies stagger every 2 seconds for 12 seconds at max, original lift mechanic 

                                                                               or   

                        -Larger radius, enemies slowed for 10 seconds after lift end , original lift mechanic

[Phoenix86]

-snip-

 

It doesnt matter, it was Rhino's playstyle, ppl choose him because none else could to the same thing in the same manner. it was "his way to fight" everyone used it like that in defense missions.

 

Btw sry if i've offended you, didnt want to.

[Shwamp]

I would say for the amount reduced, maybe more like 250, 500, 750, 1000.  Also, make it affected by his armor and steel fiber.  1000 for iron skin reduced by 75% at max steel fiber sounds pretty good to me.  60% reduction is also pretty good.

 

I do agree that 800 would go too fast.  Eris level infested can take 100-150 off of your shields per hit.  If you could reduce that down to 25 - 40(rough math)  per hit, that would be perfectly fine.

[FedorHooch]

May 21st @ 2:00 PM EST UPDATE:

The following changes are being made:

1) He will now again have full invulnerability, but up to a damage (d) cap of: 200 d, 400 d, 600 d, and 800 d based on mod rank. Thoughts?

2) He now aggro's enemies to draw fire by using Iron Skin, as enemies now see him as a big threat!

Damage cap is really not a good idea, as it wouldn't scale for higher levels and quickly become useless. Personally, I think having a damage decrease instead of a full invulnerability is a much better option. Make it scale up to high values with the right mods or introduce a Rhino-specific mod which gives bonus damage reduction for Iron Skin and grants full invulnerability on the max level. That way you can give invulnerability to people who really need it (like clans heading for high-level defence waves) while balancing the frame.

[Thypari2013]

NEW: Full ranked mod invulnerable for 800 damage.

OLD: Full ranked mod 15s duration and 80% reduction.

Let's say you get 100damage per second for 15s.

 

NEW: 700damage

OLD: 300damage

And the higher the damage is you receive the better is the old one!

The new one is only good if you get below 1000 damage.

On exactly 1000 damage you receive 200damage with both abilities.

Also:

The more damage enemies will do in future content the better is a percentage reduction than a flat reduction.

Conclusion:

Leave it at 80%!

 

Aggro part:

If you have the NEW ability and you gain aggro until it is destroyed, it is well balanced.

But if you keep the OLD ability and add aggro to it, it becomes too powerful. 15s long taunt on somebody who receives only 20% damage is too good. (I know the community loves op abilities....)

EDIT

My Suggestion

Rhino hardens his skin the longer the ability is active. No flat reductions but steadily increasing percent reductions up to 100% (So the shields will regenerate). Every 20% seconds of full duration the percentage reduction increases by 20% starting with 40%.

Example time:

unranked mod: 5s.

1s > 40%

1s > 60%

1s > 80%

2s > 100%

max ranked mod: 15s

3s > 40%

3s > 60%

3s > 80%

6s > 100%

With 100damage per second for 15s you gain 540 damage. BUT in the last 6s your shield regenerates! Also you can add the taunt in here because the reduction itself isn't overpowered now!

Problem solved. Everybody should be happy

 

 

Thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/48509-upcoming-rhino-changes-feedback-my-suggestion/

Edited May 22, 2013 by Thypari2013

[vonDirk]

No offence, but thats purely naive to think that Rhino is the only melee warframe, or that he can only be built for melee, however he is the only warframe with Ironskin.  Any frame going melee with the anchients will have the same issue not just Rhino.  Though because of Rhino's shields, armour and ironskin (even with it only taking 800+ damage) he is likely to come out better than every other frame (which as a tank he should).

 

There is a reason that you get 2 ranged weapons and a melee weapon.  Trying to take on 9, level 50+ Anchients at their strongest element (ie Melee range) isn't in the slightest a clever maneuver (Rhino isnt an idiot why play him as one?).  Ever think that's maybe why people think he is OP, because he could simply do silly things and walk away because of Ironskin and maybe why DE decided to change him.

 

An alternative instead of running into them you can use the Ironskin to taunt them and move them away from the group while all the team shoots them instead of you blocking half the other peoples shots, that 1-2 seconds you may actually kill all of them as a group.   Your part of a team, it's not just about personal glory all the time.

 

There are not only Melee enemies in the game either, infact 2 of the 3 current factions are ranged.

 

I dont play Rhino because he is of little tactical use compared to other frames, this one thing could change that.  Trivialising peoples comment because you dont think they have "played him", is near sighted and only going to hurt your cause more than fixing the issues.

 

Yeah, you are right, if you are talking about Infested. What about Greenir/Corpus? Rhino is too slow to take cover fast, and if he need to revive his teammate (as common use of Iron Skin, btw), you need to have ability to withstand that time. Yeah, ANYONE can do it with Shade or Invisibility, Mag can pull fallen teammate, etc, but Rhino can only run to his mate. So, all we need to use Shade? For Rhino, who supposed to be THE TANK and take aggro from other teammates? Isn't it ridiculous?

If you need to distract enemies from you teammates - you use Rhino Stomp. That's it. I'm using Rhino Stomp more often than Iron Skin, when i'm playing in team - because it can give my mates time and because I can't get to them fast - except of rushing with Rhino Charge - but it's really unreliable skill in real combat - I can't use it or more honestly i don't want to use it, because i can't be sure, that it would work as I expected.

 

Geez, guys, why are you so envy, because someone have only one GREAT ability, if you have many of them? Yes, I CAN play in different style, but I'll prefer to use OTHER warframe for that. More suitable ones. Who supposed to deal with such role. Yeah, if i want to go melee style - I can use Loki/Ash and pwn everything and everyone with invisibility, crits and agility. But Rhino goes melee not because he want to kill enemies - but because he need to buy some time for his teammates. Can Rhino deal with Ancients fast? High-level ones? No. Excalibur - can. Even Frost can. Banshee can - Sonar to increase damage (and to examine battlefield and be aware, if someone going from behind), Sonic Boom, if Ancients (or Chargers) are too close, and any precise weapon to hit vulnerable point. And it's without considering her speed.

Don't think about "Hey, you will be god on low-levels!". It's ok, every warframe are gods on low-levels. My Wyrm can exterminate ANYONE on Mercury without my help. So i can just run around and do nothing. Do you think, Wyrm is good? No. He is inferior to Shade - really. He can't hide you from enemies. He will alert enemies. He will steal your kills (yeah, even thins!) when you trying to done your secondary objective (like 10 kills with melee - how am I suppose to kill anyone, if my wyrm land the final blow, when enemy have low health from my side-arm or melee - and kill him before I can get kill?). Wyrm couldn't protect your from Stalker. But i'm using Wyrm, because I like him. It's my little pet, and I don't cry "You need to nerf Shade!" Shade is great, but I have both of them - and I prefer Wyrm. But it's off-topic.

About "god-mode" - it's ok, if you are powerful and indestructible on low-levels. Any warframe is looks like that. He can just run through any level on Mercury, Saturn, Venus - without any trouble (without counting bosses here - they are different). Main thing - how you supposed to deal with high-levels. Any Warframe have their own way to deal with that:

* Excalibur can stun anyone and have armor-ignoring ultimate;

* Frost have Snow Globe - and doesn't matter, what level of enemies, you need to be afraid of melee enemies - and this railgun MOAs;

* Saryn does poison damage and have Molt;

* Loki have Invisibility(+200% of Charged attack with Melee and ability to do super-crit) and Decoy;

* Ash have Smoke Bomb(same as Loki's) and Blade Storm;

* Nyx have Mind Control and Absorb (and Absorb becomes more strong with level - the higher damage of enemies will be reflected);

* Banshee have Sonar(+400% damage to the highlighted area) and Sonic Boom;

* Volt have his Electric Shield, increased damage from electronics with Overcharge and Speed;

* Trinity - you know.. Blessing and Link. And it's the only warframe, who can restore health and energy with her abilities.;

* Mag - Shield Polirize (yeah, it's great on hight levels), Bullet Attractor, Pull (40m range - you can pull strong target near you and finish it with sustained fire);

* Ember - DoT, shield, ranged skills, damage aura, highest shield recharge (if Wiki is right), double damage against Ancients(!) with her skills and chance to ignite enemies make them scream in agony;

 

From this list only two of warframes seems to lack some power: Ember and Mag. Shield Polirize and Bullet Attractor are great - against bosses, and with team-play, but hard to use. But Pull is awesome... Except noone use it to save fallen teammate, but troll you, when you want to go somewhere.

Ember is like more extravagant warframe, but her DoT with fire have great CC abilities (great against Infested, have chance to create panic with Greenirs and Corpus Crewmen), she have cheap ranged skill and damage reduction with nice speed (not great, but she able to run away from danger). But to be honest - i saw only Ember, and only 2-3 times - Mag. It's like rare species - noone want to play with them on higher levels. And I understand, why. Well, I can meet Ember on Palus (Pluto) - and she wrecks everything like a wizard: infested are died in agony, while she is walking through the Fire like a Angel of Death. That's AWESOME, really. Mag is different - she is devastating, but her abilities are great for support and dealing with enemies with low level - range of Crush is impressive - and it stops enemies for few seconds AND deal damage. But! They have ability to deal damage to enemies even from distance. Or bring ONE enemy to them, not whole crowd. They can be useful inside Snow Globe of Frost. Well, twice as useful, as Rhino. They have long ranged abilities and large energy pool. Rhino have small energy pull - and his only ranged ability is Rhino Stomp - spends 2/3 of his energy, deal 0 damage and stops enemies for 5-6 seconds... So he can only use his guns - like any other warframe, who can use their guns AND abilities.

Edited May 22, 2013 by vonDirk

[Ardhanarishvara]

While we are still on the topic of discussing Rhino's abilities, one last time I would like to say that I think adding Aggro to Iron Skin is a bad idea when it could just as easily be added to Radial Blast, giving it much more utility and making up for Radial Blast's relatively weak damage when compared to some other AoE damage skills. The forced aggro could also apply a sort of 'Distracted' debuff: By forcing them to attack you aggressively, they also multiply all incoming damage by 1.3x.

I also feel like Rhino Charge needs something to distinguish itself from Slash Dash. Like I've mentioned before, an actual high-speed sprint that allows it to go up or down stairs would be amazing, and the ability to 'plow' opponents in front of itself would be great too - a bonus of 'plowing' opponents (of which you'd probably only catch like two or three) would be that as you're pushing them, you also get the multiple hit damage bonus that you would get now only from catching yourself between two enemies or one enemy and a wall. It could be useful for pushing away high-priority or high-danger targets such as Ancients or Heavy Grineer. Of course it would also be great if Rhino 'dashed' like he used to if it was used in mid-air, still retaining the utility of crossing chasms.

 

Just... a couple more ideas for the drawing board.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Ardhanarishvara

[BloodEmperor]

One Question when IS is nerfed it asks for even more SPAMMING then before dont u agree?

and as far as ive seen the only thing ppl didnt want was spamming one skill.....isnt that contradictional?

[Zeddypanda]

imagine them slash dashing (you are invincible while doing it, did you know?)

No, you're not.

[The_Traitor_Executioner]

So.. you nerfed him again.  That.. isn't really gonna fix the problem.  People are still going to be annoyed when they're trying to revive a teammate and every enemy nearby aggros on them.  What was wrong with increasing the freaking energy cost or something like that?  THE ABILITY IS SUPPOSED TO LET HIM TANK, not make everything go killcrazy on him and pour all their fire into him SO THE ABILITY GOES DOWN FASTER.  That's not balanced, it's just annoying and stupid.

[Churpy]

Why are people complaining about the lack of invulnerability on Banshee during cast times? Hello? That's with ALL frames that I've noticed. NOT just Banshee. My Trinity has lost her Link/Blessing cast time invulnerability, making her considerably harder (but not worse, I like challenge) to play in a tight spot. My friend plays an Ember and struggles a lot to get his skills off in a lot of enemies because his cast times don't protect him anymore, he's just instantly facerolled (he's still levelling, also quite a new player)

Am I the only person noticing this??

[Phoenix86]

No, you're not.

yes you are, at least before 7.11 i still not played my cali once, i was busy leveling others

[Kalenath]

Why are people complaining about the lack of invulnerability on Banshee during cast times? Hello? That's with ALL frames that I've noticed. NOT just Banshee. My Trinity has lost her Link/Blessing cast time invulnerability, making her considerably harder (but not worse, I like challenge) to play in a tight spot. My friend plays an Ember and struggles a lot to get his skills off in a lot of enemies because his cast times don't protect him anymore, he's just instantly facerolled (he's still levelling, also quite a new player)

Am I the only person noticing this??

It is mainly the long uninteruptable animation for Sound Quake.

 

If the damage stuns the baddies all well and good. If it DOESN'T and you don't have a shade to stealth you, (or it used it and hasn't recharged yet) you are a greasy splatter.

 

People used to run into HUGE groups of mobs and let out sound quake and laugh. I know, I did it a few times before getting bored with the 'I win' button.

 

Now, if you don't have cover from a team, or something VERY solid to hide behind a LONG ways form baddies, you are toast before you can move again even after the animation stops doing damage. You can either spec for power damage or damage resistance. Not both. My banshee is actually specced for damage resistance now. Otherwise as soon as  I light off Sound Quake against Corpus in particular, I draw fire from everyone on the map who are not in my AOE and I die before I can move. Every. Single. Time.

 

So...

 

I don't use Sound quake against Corpus or Grinneer most of the time anymore. Risks outweigh the rewards. Against Infested? I find a high spot out of reach to use it. Against Corpus or Grineer, that is suicide.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Kalenath

[Churpy]

It is mainly the long uninteruptable animation for Sound Quake.

 

If the damage stuns the baddies all well and good. If it DOESN'T and you don't have a shade to stealth you, (or it used it and hasn't recharged yet) you are a greasy splatter.

 

People used to run into HUGE groups of mobs and let out sound quake and laugh. I know, I did it a few times before getting bored with the 'I win' button.

 

Now, if you don't have cover from a team, or something VERY solid to hide behind a LONG ways form baddies, you are toast before you can move again even after the animation stops doing damage. You can either spec for power damage or damage resistance. Not both. My banshee is actually specced for damage resistance now. Otherwise as soon as  I light off Sound Quake against Corpus in particular, I draw fire from everyone on the map who are not in my AOE and I die before I can move. Every. Single. Time.

 

So...

 

I don't use Sound quake against Corpus or Grinneer most of the time anymore. Risks outweigh the rewards. Against Infested? I find a high spot out of reach to use it. Against Corpus or Grineer, that is suicide.

I could also wait for my health to drop to 20 as a Trinity, then just hit Blessing, suddenly, invulnerability cast time, and then 540 HP and 540 shields! Now I actually have to cast it well before my health is even at 300. Trinity is squishy too. I'm honestly just surprised nobody has complained about it.

[vonDirk]

I could also wait for my health to drop to 20 as a Trinity, then just hit Blessing, suddenly, invulnerability cast time, and then 540 HP and 540 shields! Now I actually have to cast it well before my health is even at 300. Trinity is squishy too. I'm honestly just surprised nobody has complained about it.

Maybe, because Trinity always was squishy? That's why she have Well of Life, Energy Vampire, Blessing and Link. Cast Link, then Blessing - good skill combo, if you and your mates in trouble. If she haven't enough energy - Energy Vampire and one swing with Gram or Scindo, or HEK, or Snipetron (if you use Energy Vampire for distant target (because range of her abilities are incredible!)

[Wooffgang]

1) He will now again have full invulnerability, but up to a damage (d) cap of: 200 d, 400 d, 600 d, and 800 d based on mod rank.  Thoughts?

2) He now aggro's enemies to draw fire by using Iron Skin, as enemies now see him as a big threat!

 

To be completely objective: That seems like a new nerf to me.... I prefer getting back the CC immunity and keeping it at 80% reduced damage,, The aggro effect would be a awsome addition to it.Just a theory but ive expirienced getting the 990 shield getting instant droped by certain high level mobs.A theory... instead of taking a 1000 damage thus 200 to shield I would rather take only 200 damage straight to the shield then keep the 80% damage reduction for any further damage I take.

 

 

A suggestion: Iron skin should still be 80% reduction, and get affected by armor. That way steel Fiber becomes a Viable option on Rhino.Also Regenerating 100-200 Shield every use would also be nice.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Kyryu

[Zeddypanda]

yes you are, at least before 7.11 i still not played my cali once, i was busy leveling others

Yeah, well, I played him yesterday...

 

Why are people complaining about the lack of invulnerability on Banshee during cast times? Hello? That's with ALL frames that I've noticed. NOT just Banshee. My Trinity has lost her Link/Blessing cast time invulnerability, making her considerably harder (but not worse, I like challenge) to play in a tight spot. My friend plays an Ember and struggles a lot to get his skills off in a lot of enemies because his cast times don't protect him anymore, he's just instantly facerolled (he's still levelling, also quite a new player)

Am I the only person noticing this??

...and I, too, have noticed this.