De Please Answer Us! Will You Buff Any Contents Inside The Founder Pack?

[LordOfScrugging]

But energy = mass x speed of light squared. Power = work / time. They're completely different but related concepts!

 

(Bad pun. Carry on.)

I'm on vacation. I don't want to see physics ever again.

nooooooo no school. no learning. relaxation. meditation. medication.......weeeee

 

we're getting off topic though.

 

Can excal prime be buffed? it actually can, regardless of non founders cries. will he? not too sure. is it fair? depends on your view of fairness. can we think up a way to reasonable make everyone happy? maybe, doubt it but who knows

[tripletriple]

I am extremely disappointing we don't have an answer from DE yet. I hope they are NOT just ignoring this issue and sweeping it under the rug. DE please do not neglect your players. Even a "we are looking into it" would suffice.

[K0bra]

Why is this thread in Warframe & Abilities?I think in a Founder pack is more then only Excalibur and this thread is about Skana P and Lato P too. The "Forgotten Primes".

 

@tripletriple

Lets see tomorrow is the Devstream maybe they say some words to it.

Edited June 12, 2015 by K0bra

[LordOfScrugging]

Why is this thread in Warframe & Abilities?I think in a Founder pack is more then only Excalibur and this thread is about Skana P and Lato P too. The "Forgotten Primes".

 

@tripletriple

Lets see tomorrow is the Devstream maybe they say some words to it.

i think its cause the main point everyone has been talking about is excal prime

[Rayden_Tenno]

So, not only do you want the same rewards as the Founders, without taking the same risk as the Founders, you want to not pay for it? This is entitlement in the extreme. Buffing Excalibur Prime does not make the game Pay2win, it makes it support-the-game-when-it-was-barely-afloat-in-the-free-market-with-no-real-guarantee-of-your-investment....... to win. The FOunders package was not just another Prime Access with added benefits, it was both figuratively and literally an investment. A risk to be taken. THey got the rewards for taking that risk.

What did you do? What did I do? Nothing. Therefore, we should get what we paid for. The earlier proposal you just ignored would be to have half the buff applied to the Proto Excalibur Skin, so that you would also have to make a sacrifice to get the reward. You don't deserve to have it, but you'll get it anyway, because your whining is causing nothing but problems for anyone. You did nothing, and you're still getting something, because the Founders are good people. Be grateful for that.

 

Trust me, if it were up to me, we wouldn't get squat.

can you actually understand what i said? I said that a quest/platinum wall, i dont care about the method, but the final objective. Buffing something than only a small portion has is giving advantage over a frame to that small portion. Call it favoritisim, i call it pay2win. Now that same buff is also available to vanilla excal trough some other way? then there is no problem.

[Crewell]

Wow this thread has degenerated. I can only hope DE maybe says something on today's Dev stream about this. After alk there have only been a gazillion topics about it lately.

[Renan.Ruivo]

Third time i'm dropping by to alert people to keep the discussion civil. At this point, i'm going to ask others that are actively interested on keeping this discussion going to help with avoiding the lock-down of this thread by avoiding people that bring flamed attitudes to their argumentation entirely and to ask them instead to keep it civil, or you won't give them any sort of debate.

 

If i have to drop by again, i'll drop the hammer instead.

[-Onyx-Phalian]

De are not ignoring the matter. You just have supported the game (like a donation) and got a present from De. All exclusive stuff must be cosmetic, this is the rule of the game or if you want a buff for them you will share exca prime with all the community, just choose.

This is 110% true. Now I am sure people would bring up things like Frost Prime and Latron Prime but a) you can still get them via trading and b) DE has stated that they plan on bringing back locked off Prime material in the future. On the other hand, Excalibur Prime is locked from everyone who didn't get a founder's package. DE is tough but fair when it comes to payed content and buffing Excalibur Prime would make it "Pay to Win" as there is no other way to get the frame. Remember that DE said that this is Founder exclusive, basically making a contract with the player that they are getting this exclusive warframe. Sadly this is a nasty double edged sword that, because "Pay to Win" frowned upon in the entire gaming community combined with the agreement in the Founders Package, buffing Excalibur Prime is near impossible. 

Edited June 12, 2015 by Phalian

[seniledark]

Hm, my thoughts on this is I do believe that the founder's Excal prime, lato prime, and skana prime should be buffed. Not too much though, but enough to see a good difference. The Lato prime and skana prime need a very small buff for they show difference already compared to the non prime versions. Yet, excal prime is another story for there is only a small difference compared to his non prime. 

 

Now going off topic(Please Renan. Ruivo don't bring the hammer down for this response, If you must delete this whole response). For those of you who complain about not being able to have Excal prime. I say find your favorite warframe, choose someone else to truly be your frame. I choose Vauban, frost/frost prime, and Nova/ nova prime. They are my favorites, I choose them to be the frame that expresses me and how I play. Now I say find your frame and hopefully there will be a prime for that frame. If excal is your favorite frame, then customize him to be Different from the rest, for you are truly different.

 

   Edit: Well, I tried to stay neutral, guess things just don't work out at times, but I do see what you say Phalian. Though, I have doubts. Well,  Good luck to All.           

 

                 Seniledark.

Edited June 12, 2015 by seniledark

[-Onyx-Phalian]

Hm, my thoughts on this is I do believe that the founder's Excal prime, lato prime, and skana prime should be buffed. Not too much though, but enough to see a good difference. The Lato prime and skana prime need a very small buff for they show difference already compared to the non prime versions. Yet, excal prime is another story for there is only a small difference compared to his non prime. 

 

Now going off topic(Please Renan. Ruivo don't bring the hammer down for this response, If you must delete this whole response). For those of you who complain about not being able to have Excal prime. I say find your favorite warframe, choose someone else to truly be your frame. I choose Vauban, frost/frost prime, and Nova/ nova prime. They are my favorites, I choose them to be the frame that expresses me and how I play. Now I say find your frame and hopefully there will be a prime for that frame. If excal is your favorite frame, then customize him to be Different from the rest, for you are truly different.

 

              Seniledark.

Yes, self-expression is all well and good but that still means that you're saying "Be yourself even though you won't be as good as someone who obtained a Founder's Package if you love Excalibur." Remember that Excalibur Prime was made in a time where Prime was little more than an aesthetic change. Look at Ember Prime and Frost Prime, a little added/changed Mod polarities and a new look, that's it. Look, I respect DE and all of their decisions but what you're asking is for an ultimatum which no matter what would cause a flame war in the Warframe community. Leaving Excalibur Prime the way it is would annoy Founder members. On the other hand, buffing Excalibur Prime would enrage non-founders as the only way to get the frame is through paying a LOT of money.

 

Now if you want to put it in perspective, let's round up and say 10% of payers have Founders Packages. That means that buffing Excalibur Prime would enrage 90% of the community. I don't think I need to explain that that is a scary amount of people. Also, I have never heard of Founders Packages giving anything more than aesthetics or XP + Resource boosters EVER working out in the long run. DE, if you're reading this, Silence is Golden as we all know that confirmation on either side would cause outrage.  

[TheBrsrkr]

So, did they say anything in the Devstream about it?

Or the Supra?

[Rayden_Tenno]

So, did they say anything in the Devstream about it?

Or the Supra?

nothing, as it was expected. Very pleased with the last devstream though, especially the last part where they actually trolled with the ash prime. 

[LordOfScrugging]

Yes, self-expression is all well and good but that still means that you're saying "Be yourself even though you won't be as good as someone who obtained a Founder's Package if you love Excalibur." Remember that Excalibur Prime was made in a time where Prime was little more than an aesthetic change. Look at Ember Prime and Frost Prime, a little added/changed Mod polarities and a new look, that's it. Look, I respect DE and all of their decisions but what you're asking is for an ultimatum which no matter what would cause a flame war in the Warframe community. Leaving Excalibur Prime the way it is would annoy Founder members. On the other hand, buffing Excalibur Prime would enrage non-founders as the only way to get the frame is through paying a LOT of money.

 

Now if you want to put it in perspective, let's round up and say 10% of payers have Founders Packages. That means that buffing Excalibur Prime would enrage 90% of the community. I don't think I need to explain that that is a scary amount of people. Also, I have never heard of Founders Packages giving anything more than aesthetics or XP + Resource boosters EVER working out in the long run. DE, if you're reading this, Silence is Golden as we all know that confirmation on either side would cause outrage.  

my little quip about this specific portion: you are implying that founders make up 10% of the payers. then go on to say that it would enrage 90% of the community. i hope you meant to say players instead of payers. because i'm sure that the majority of players in that 90% don't pay for a darn thing. meaning that founders make up a much larger base of the payers. this is just a personal gripe i have about throwing stats into things

 

 

So, did they say anything in the Devstream about it?

Or the Supra?

they only mentioned shotguns and snipers. nothing on frames in general. so until that devstream comes where they mention whether old frames will get updated or not, this topic will continue 

Edited June 12, 2015 by LordOfScrugging

[Rayden_Tenno]

 

my little quip about this specific portion: you are implying that founders make up 10% of the payers. then go on to say that it would enrage 90% of the community. i hope you meant to say players instead of payers. because i'm sure that the majority of players in that 90% don't pay for a darn thing. meaning that founders make up a much larger base of the payers. this is just a personal gripe i have about throwing stats into things

 

 

 

so you are stating that players who have not bought founder pack are not paying anything at all? Really? im in that 90% of the community that would enrage, since i dont have founder pack and im in those 9 out of 10 people, it means i havent payed nothing for the game? many players from those 9 out of 10 players have long since surpassed the price of founder pack. even the 1000€ barrier. I'm talking from own experience not from something i've heard around here or there. Stop saying that people who have not bought founder pack don't support the game cuz the truth is right the opposite, people that keeps paying support the game, your money was spent years ago. How do you think they still maintain the game? with founder pack money? srsly? 

Edited June 12, 2015 by Rayden_Tenno

[Valar.Morghulis]

 

my little quip about this specific portion: you are implying that founders make up 10% of the payers. then go on to say that it would enrage 90% of the community. i hope you meant to say players instead of payers. because i'm sure that the majority of players in that 90% don't pay for a darn thing. meaning that founders make up a much larger base of the payers. this is just a personal gripe i have about throwing stats into things

 

 

they only mentioned shotguns and snipers. nothing on frames in general. so until that devstream comes where they mention whether old frames will get updated or not, this topic will continue 

 

Founders make up a portion of the payer, but by far not the majority of the payer.

 

If you look spend time time researching successful Micro-Transaction Monetization models you will learn that developers make a lot more money off of smaller transactions that happen much more frequently (Frame/Weapon Slots/Potatos/Cosmetics/Connivance). They will make up the vast vast majority of the incoming money.

 

With your claim your trying to make it sound like "Founders" are doing the lion share are support of DE, that is just misleading propaganda that "Founders" tell them selfs to justify having exclusive items and now demanding a buff to an exclusive frame.

 

In my friends list I have 22 (active) friends with only 2 founders and all 22 spend money on the game. Almost all of the 20 "Non-Founders" spend a more then they 2 "Founders". Granted this is a small sample size and i cannot confirm any actual perches other then the fact that they have nearly every frame with potato and many Prime Access Accessories. So i have no reason to believe that they don't spend money on the game, many claimed about ~30$ a month. Some only buy the PA every 3 months while other buy 10$-20$ Plat-packs when they get the 50%/75% off coupon.

 

Interestingly nearly all of my non-Founder friends said that if they buffed the "Founder" pack they would keep playing the game but stop spending money on the game. Both of my friends that are "Founders" would like a Founder Pack buff, only 1 of them said that it probably would change their spending habits if they didn't buff the Founder Pack.

 

Given the sample size is vary small but when reading the comments from non-Founders in this thread it is clear that the community at large is against the idea of Exclusive Content getting buffed without a re-release.

 

As a member of a gaming community you should stop and think about that before you continue to make demands, buffing the Excal Prime makes a very small number of players happy while it will anger/upset the larger player base.

 

Exclusive Content should end at cosmetics and convenience, once it has power then your clearly in the "Pay-2-Win"

 

[tripletriple]

 

Snip

 

That is a largely biased and inaccurate portrayal. You asked 10 people? Your entire argument is null and based on your group of friends. You do not speak for anyone except for yourself. Many non founders agree it is the right thing to buff excalibur prime in line with the others. This thread is proof of that. It is laughable to think a 25 armor buff on excalibur prime would enrage players as if it effects them in anyway or hinders their ability to play in anyway.

 

P2W is not exclusive content. It is when you NEED to pay to win or the gap between non payers and paying players is huge. 25 extra armor does not cut it.

Edited June 12, 2015 by tripletriple

[Flyghter]

I think DE should release one more Prime version for Excalibur so all the other players can make it (this prime version to have a differite model )

and both Prime version to have some special status like :Faster Shield Recharge ,Armor, Sprint etc....

This way the founders will have a Special Excalibur whit prime  status and all the onther players will have the chanse to make Excalibur Prime .

[MagPrime]

I think DE should release one more Prime version for Excalibur so all the other players can make it (this prime version to have a differite model )

and both Prime version to have some special status like :Faster Shield Recharge ,Armor, Sprint etc....

This way the founders will have a Special Excalibur whit prime  status and all the onther players will have the chanse to make Excalibur Prime .

It wont fix the problem though.  Many people want the Founders pack because of the exclusivity, other want it because they're collectors and still others just can't stand the idea of someone having something they don't.  By releasing a 3rd Excal we haven't solved anything, Excal Prime will be out of reach and people will continue to complain and whine.

[OverlordMcGeek]

I think DE should release one more Prime version for Excalibur so all the other players can make it (this prime version to have a differite model )

and both Prime version to have some special status like :Faster Shield Recharge ,Armor, Sprint etc....

This way the founders will have a Special Excalibur whit prime  status and all the onther players will have the chanse to make Excalibur Prime .

I love this idea!!! I can have 2 Excalibro's primuses!!!

 

See where I'm going with this?

[tripletriple]

I am extremely disappointed that DE did not talk about this in the DEV stream. This issue will not go away. They know it is a problem.

[Clone3216k]

I am extremely disappointed that DE did not talk about this in the DEV stream. This issue will not go away. They know it is a problem.

DE will answer when they want to. You founders are no more important than anyone else here.

[FelisImpurrator]

It wont fix the problem though.  Many people want the Founders pack because of the exclusivity, other want it because they're collectors and still others just can't stand the idea of someone having something they don't.  By releasing a 3rd Excal we haven't solved anything, Excal Prime will be out of reach and people will continue to complain and whine.

All right, hold on a second - I think I've gone over this, but just to reiterate it as its own separate thing.

 

What I don't get is why you, and others in this thread, identify this as a problem. Not trying to pick a fight with anyone - I just legitimately don't understand why this is what's being focused on.

 

No matter what you do when designing any game, someone will complain about something. No exceptions. You can't "fix" that. You can't stop it. Unfortunate, but it's effectively the cosmic background noise of this game's (and any other game's) universe. That's not the problem that needs to be addressed, because no matter how hard you try, there will always be complaints.

 

The real problem is that right now, there is a reason to complain - and by purely logical standards, it's a valid one, even if it's blown wildly out of proportion ("OMG P2W!1!!11"). That argument is - "If we buff x prime and release no equivalent to the general public, i.e., at LEAST 90% of the playerbase, some players will have a tangible, unobtainable gameplay advantage over others." This, as far as I can gather, is precisely the reasoning DE uses for not buffing said primes, so it can't be dismissed out of hand.

 

So I'll outline some scenarios the way I did last time.

A) Status quo. Founder primes get no buff. Salt from founders ensues. Counter-salt from non-founders. Each side thinks the others are all just greedy entitled pricks who want everything for themselves. No resolution.

B) Founder primes get a buff, but no alternative to Excal Prime is released, ever. Salt from founders dies down. Counter-salt from non-founders skyrockets through the roof because now there's a thing that impacts gameplay significantly that they legitimately can't have, ever. No resolution.

C) Founder primes get a buff, and an alternative to Excal Prime is released (worked into the lore and everything) for everyone else to use without having Excal Prime. Salt from founders dies down. Counter-salt from non-founders who only wanted the stats dies down. Some salt left over from non-founders who want it not for gameplay reasons, but because it's Excal Prime and it's a Status Symbol. No resolution... or is there?

 

Option C is what I've been pushing for from the start. One, because it creates the smallest number of dissatisfied people. Two, because it is actually as close to 'solved' as this gets. Why? Because at that point - why would the tiny minority complaining about "It's not enough because it doesn't have a void key on it" even matter in any way, shape, or form? That's not a practical concern. It doesn't affect gameplay. You take away the legitimate (i.e., defensible) complaints and leave behind the ones that really are just pointless whining.

 

And at that point, the leftover ceases to be a concern. They can safely be ignored because there's practically no chance of their being the majority. Most people don't even know an Excalibur Prime exists. Most people would only bother if it benefits them gameplay-wise. Give them an upgrade to their Excalibur and they probably couldn't care less whether he's (slightly) gold-plated or not. You want bling and blades, you can go for Ash Prime.

 

In short: The problem isn't that there are complaints. It's that some of them have a point - and even if not everyone thinks so, that point is not too far off from the official stance on the matter, and so if you want anything to change you have to address that point.

[TheBrsrkr]

All right, hold on a second - I think I've gone over this, but just to reiterate it as its own separate thing.

What I don't get is why you, and others in this thread, identify this as a problem. Not trying to pick a fight with anyone - I just legitimately don't understand why this is what's being focused on.

No matter what you do when designing any game, someone will complain about something. No exceptions. You can't "fix" that. You can't stop it. Unfortunate, but it's effectively the cosmic background noise of this game's (and any other game's) universe. That's not the problem that needs to be addressed, because no matter how hard you try, there will always be complaints.

The real problem is that right now, there is a reason to complain - and by purely logical standards, it's a valid one, even if it's blown wildly out of proportion ("OMG P2W!1!!11"). That argument is - "If we buff x prime and release no equivalent to the general public, i.e., at LEAST 90% of the playerbase, some players will have a tangible, unobtainable gameplay advantage over others." This, as far as I can gather, is precisely the reasoning DE uses for not buffing said primes, so it can't be dismissed out of hand.

So I'll outline some scenarios the way I did last time.

A) Status quo. Founder primes get no buff. Salt from founders ensues. Counter-salt from non-founders. Each side thinks the others are all just greedy entitled pricks who want everything for themselves. No resolution.

B) Founder primes get a buff, but no alternative to Excal Prime is released, ever. Salt from founders dies down. Counter-salt from non-founders skyrockets through the roof because now there's a thing that impacts gameplay significantly that they legitimately can't have, ever. No resolution.

C) Founder primes get a buff, and an alternative to Excal Prime is released (worked into the lore and everything) for everyone else to use without having Excal Prime. Salt from founders dies down. Counter-salt from non-founders who only wanted the stats dies down. Some salt left over from non-founders who want it not for gameplay reasons, but because it's Excal Prime and it's a Status Symbol. No resolution... or is there?

Option C is what I've been pushing for from the start. One, because it creates the smallest number of dissatisfied people. Two, because it is actually as close to 'solved' as this gets. Why? Because at that point - why would the tiny minority complaining about "It's not enough because it doesn't have a void key on it" even matter in any way, shape, or form? That's not a practical concern. It doesn't affect gameplay. You take away the legitimate (i.e., defensible) complaints and leave behind the ones that really are just pointless whining.

And at that point, the leftover ceases to be a concern. They can safely be ignored because there's practically no chance of their being the majority. Most people don't even know an Excalibur Prime exists. Most people would only bother if it benefits them gameplay-wise. Give them an upgrade to their Excalibur and they probably couldn't care less whether he's (slightly) gold-plated or not. You want bling and blades, you can go for Ash Prime.

In short: The problem isn't that there are complaints. It's that some of them have a point - and even if not everyone thinks so, that point is not too far off from the official stance on the matter, and so if you want anything to change you have to address that point.

This is what, the fourth time I'm seeing this? At least go back a few pages guys, when a thread gets this long most likely someone already said what you're about to say. Edited June 13, 2015 by TheBrsrkr

[FelisImpurrator]

This is what, the fourth time I'm seeing this? At least go back a few pages guys, when a thread gets this long most likely someone already said what you're about to say.

Apparently the thread is moving so fast my posts get eaten. So I suppose the best I can do is reword and reiterate until everyone is finally on the same page. That said, it gives me a chance to lay everything out all nice and organized like this, so that's something.

[KainDarkfire]

I think most posters are missing the point here, even the moderator.  Yes, obviously he'll be getting the new Excalibur kit.  That has nothing to do with the question presented.  Even during the 'rework' of Ember did DE finally go back and give her Prime version some sort of stat buff over normal version, there is no reason for both Excalibur, and later Frost to get the same treatment, as they are statistically (and honestly, aesthetically) identical to their normal counterparts.

 

I don't think this is just some 'founder' issue, even though ultimately it will only affect founders, no, its a consistency issue.

 

I'd also like to note that Primed Chamber is hella exclusive, and yet vastly more powerful than what the rest of us plebs got in Charged Chamber, where's your complaints for that?

Edited June 13, 2015 by KainDarkfire