Psa:ophelia And Hydriod Pilfer Swarm Nerf Hotfix 17.0.4. Warframe's Issue:farming And The Unhealthy Progression Of This Game.

[A.T.R.A.]

i literally skipped every post in this thread but just wanted to post that i agree with this title 

 

i never see people go more then 40min in survivals now or more than 30 waves in defense 

 

darksectors are just waves 10-15 runs now and survs pretty much dont exist in dark sectors 

 

plus everyone now kinda just runs the first thing they see on youtube and then begins to swear by that only and calls you a noob for 9 hours straight for thinking differently

 

i love this game and have played for 2 years

but dam :/ get your S#&$ together DE stop running a charity with this growing pools of mastery fodder and easy farms :(

[Chiwwy1]

I apologize for interpretating your joke wrong, what I took out of it was that instead of wasting time to post this thread I could find some other hobby or do something else rather than try to petition and recommend a change in fixing a game that is as you say fundamentally flawed. In order to progress in our modding system, and warframes to be more stronger efficient it is in a way a force on the player base to actually try to find the most efficient and most easy to by pass the rewards system and make RNG be their slave by producing mass amounts of killing to a degree where it rewards you more than what you actually can do when you actually want to play for fun, when you play the way DE intends to want you to play their game.

This presents a divided community where casual players get on to play and want to have fun, and then their friends or clan mates are busy doing Draco, and farming for other things, you don't need to look too far from recruiting chat, over half the requests and recruiting or either LF T4 missions or LF draco, H> draco missions. It is a problem in this game, and I feel DE from watching the last Dev Stream they released, they feel the problem is rather with the star chart, not with how the reward system and game mechanic is, which I feel in a way is totally wrong, and I'm very surprised that they either dodged a question about the grinding with this game, or just simply didn't care to talk about it at all.

I try to avoid Devstreams usually. I feel like usually nothing really wrong gets addressed. Then hearing they dodged or avoided questions about grinding says to me they know it exists and don't want to fix it because "Hey look at these new things we are doing". Even though that most things they come out with do nothing but feed into that big problem they are trying to avoid fixing and sometimes make it much much worse. I'm trying not to be hard on them, but geez they have to see this is happening.

[Potato_Ninja]

I can't believe I'm saying this but perhaps a loot system similar to what darkspore had would help:

 

1. Have hidden loot caches on every mission (which also encourages exploration which, after watching the latest Dev stream, the Devs appear to want to support exploration game-play. I could be wrong however.)

 

2. Completing more missions in a row (5 to be exact) would provide better/rarer loot and would rank with the number of successful missions (eg. The UI after a mission prompts the question: "do you want to start another mission", you select "yes" and it gives you another random mission mode, you do 3 missions in a row and you get a rarer reward than if you did just one. every time you close the post mission interface, it resets the ranking system back to zero.)

 

As I was typing this, I realized there where problems with this system too when applied to warframe. Alas, "There will always be a loot cave, DE"

[tzaeru]

I think the real issue just boils down to the game simply being too easy after you've learned the initial ropes.

 

That's it. Too easy. The challenge curve is not good. It starts out pretty extreme, but then it quickly levels to nothing. That's the single, stand-out main issue, of which other issues are merely symptoms.

 

After ~20 hours, there are really two ways you play the game: Run N amount of defense rotations/certain time in Survival/some Void runs for rarities OR play a self-made challenge like hanging past an hour in Void survival.

 

The thing is that you don't have to be very good or do any team work for the first to be a piece of cake. There are so many easy builds and easy tactics to do the hardest defense/survival missions for all reward rotations that there's basically no risk of anything going wrong. The second just prompts you to run the exact same invulnerability setups and when invulnerability fails, you die instantly. That, too, is just... Boring, really.

 

The farming would be okay if the game rewarded good team work and encouraged players to exceed themselves and to improve in the game. This isn't the case, however. Farming every part is easy in the terms of skills; The only constraint to farming is how much time you want to spend to it. This is not good game design, it's just tedious.

 

So, as long as the game is as easy as it is now and does not reward teamwork, I don't find myself very tempted to return to play much. However, an additional question really is if it even made sense to aim Warframe to be a game that is played hundreds of hours instead of dozens of hours.. Do we really need yet another game that is supposed to be enjoyable infinitely? Warframe's great for the first half-a-hundred hours! And that is not a bad amount of content.

 

EDIT: And if the question is about how team-play could be improved, well, powerful self-used Warframe abilities need to go. More abilities need to be made to synchronize with each other. Enemy AIs need major rework. More steady damage sources need introduced, instead of "take-no-damage-or-die-to-one-hit"-scenarios. The gap between damages of low-tier weapons and tuned-out high tier weapons need smoothing, since right now, designing a balanced mission challenge is impossible due to how extreme the damage output differencies are between maximized builds and less-maximized builds.

Edited June 13, 2015 by tzaeru

[AlphaHorseman]

Yes OP! I agree with you 100%! I am against nerfing our frames myself, and would rather see our content grow and expand, rather than be backpedaled with nerfs. Hard counter enemies aren't the solution that I like myself, and have proposed ideas as the following to alleviate the need for them:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/425117-we-need-better-enemies-not-just-bullet-sponges/#entry4716839

 

In respect to your ideas of nerfing the loot caves, not the rewards, we could attain special or small buffs for completing certain actions such as:

 

Increased affinity gain/credit gains from killing enemies while the player is in motion, wall running, or killing enemies while in parkour.

Increased affinity gain/credit gains from stealth kills, as Spy missions have given.

Increased chance for rare loot to drop by stringing together usage of guns, melee, and powers in a set amount of time frame. 

 

Or things of the sort. What do you think?

[SickoSike]

Yes OP! I agree with you 100%! I am against nerfing our frames myself, and would rather see our content grow and expand, rather than be backpedaled with nerfs. Hard counter enemies aren't the solution that I like myself, and have proposed ideas as the following to alleviate the need for them:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/425117-we-need-better-enemies-not-just-bullet-sponges/#entry4716839

 

In respect to your ideas of nerfing the loot caves, not the rewards, we could attain special or small buffs for completing certain actions such as:

 

Increased affinity gain/credit gains from killing enemies while the player is in motion, wall running, or killing enemies while in parkour.

Increased affinity gain/credit gains from stealth kills, as Spy missions have given.

Increased chance for rare loot to drop by stringing together usage of guns, melee, and powers in a set amount of time frame. 

 

Or things of the sort. What do you think?

I agree with this notion and your post as well on your other thread you made, these threads definitely need to be looked at by Digital Extreme staff members, I really hope they can respond to us and actually make some healthy changes for this game.

[R34LM]

I completely agree with the op.

 

I remember when I started the game back in U8. The game was much less like Killing Floor and more of its own game. High level exterminates very rarely broke 70 units, and endless missions had a reasonable amount of enemies to contend with.

 

Fast forward to now and the game is just about how fast you can kill a mass of enemies. Go to Vedic on Ceres and the first room will have 20 enemies 4/5 times, and there will be around 100 more after that. The one reason I don't go to Draco is because the spawning is so mindless and absurd that it actually lags my game, and I simply do not have a playstyle to combat them...other than to spam 4, which is where this habit was partially born. How best to avoid being demolished by 40 enemies in a clump than to wipe them all out within a second? It's sickening, and DE's best response is to add units that resist our abilities and armor that scales way too high.

 

I keep saying that this game is purely Killing Floor in space, save for a few moments. The game has become way to assault based, when back in U8 you could play in any way you want, including stealth and snipe hunts. Now, stealth is nearly impossible because the amount of enemies is just too much, and if you don't have a full auto weapon or something that has a large aoe for a gun, you are going to be killing the mob very slowly. Forget about buffing snipers and shotguns; make them viable by adjusting the SITUATION, not the GUN.

 

This is the reason I pop in and out of this game constantly, because the amount of spawn spam, assault based, gung ho crap just gets on my nerves every time, so much that I just resort to Ash and bladestorm my way through every mission.

[SickoSike]

I completely agree with the op.

 

I remember when I started the game back in U8. The game was much less like Killing Floor and more of its own game. High level exterminates very rarely broke 70 units, and endless missions had a reasonable amount of enemies to contend with.

 

Fast forward to now and the game is just about how fast you can kill a mass of enemies. Go to Vedic on Ceres and the first room will have 20 enemies 4/5 times, and there will be around 100 more after that. The one reason I don't go to Draco is because the spawning is so mindless and absurd that it actually lags my game, and I simply do not have a playstyle to combat them...other than to spam 4, which is where this habit was partially born. How best to avoid being demolished by 40 enemies in a clump than to wipe them all out within a second? It's sickening, and DE's best response is to add units that resist our abilities and armor that scales way too high.

 

I keep saying that this game is purely Killing Floor in space, save for a few moments. The game has become way to assault based, when back in U8 you could play in any way you want, including stealth and snipe hunts. Now, stealth is nearly impossible because the amount of enemies is just too much, and if you don't have a full auto weapon or something that has a large aoe for a gun, you are going to be killing the mob very slowly. Forget about buffing snipers and shotguns; make them viable by adjusting the SITUATION, not the GUN.

 

This is the reason I pop in and out of this game constantly, because the amount of spawn spam, assault based, gung ho crap just gets on my nerves every time, so much that I just resort to Ash and bladestorm my way through every mission.

Thank you for your support on this thread, Let's hope DE reads this and brings back the game we all once and still love time to time.. warframe.

[cary2010haha1]

it joke that why need to loot if a syn/rare mod just need 15 plat, and a syn weapon just need 50 :P


I duno which one if more unhealthy, loot part or the trade part.



No one will just go Draco if no trade system, Draco give you nothing but- keys and exp and cell and parts of all mods you need.
most mods you need is drop from other maps, Draco guys just get all their mods from other players hand/trans. an-then sit in Draco, thats why Draco so popl/.

[FelisImpurrator]

I can't believe I'm saying this but perhaps a loot system similar to what darkspore had would help:

 

1. Have hidden loot caches on every mission (which also encourages exploration which, after watching the latest Dev stream, the Devs appear to want to support exploration game-play. I could be wrong however.)

 

2. Completing more missions in a row (5 to be exact) would provide better/rarer loot and would rank with the number of successful missions (eg. The UI after a mission prompts the question: "do you want to start another mission", you select "yes" and it gives you another random mission mode, you do 3 missions in a row and you get a rarer reward than if you did just one. every time you close the post mission interface, it resets the ranking system back to zero.)

 

As I was typing this, I realized there where problems with this system too when applied to warframe. Alas, "There will always be a loot cave, DE"

The first of these is one of the ideas I came up with when trying to think of how to address this very problem. It's a step I still think should be part of any solution implemented.

 

I agree with the main idea of this thread: The root cause of loot cave abuse is the grind. It's always been the grind. It exists because standing on a box mashing 4 is empirically the most efficient way of forcing the game's RNG to cough up a decent reward instead of drowning you in a sea of utterly worthless junk.

 

But given the completely true and accurate statement there, that there will always be a loot cave - well, I don't quite agree with some of the finer details. Like nerfing enemy drops. The short version of my view on the matter is this: I believe farming enemies is an issue mainly because getting drops from enemies is so difficult to begin with. That it arose because it's the only way to ever realistically make those grunts drop an Orokin Cell or a Neural Sensor more than once every couple of hours. So the plan I'm thinking of doesn't involve nerfing enemy drops.

 

The long version... well, I'll be posting my own thread within the month, so that's one of the things I'll elaborate on then.

[Hypernaut1]

"buff the reward system"

 

what does this even mean? what rewards are you looking for?

 

If rewards are buffed, then that common reward becomes the standard. If Loki systems could be earned in 2-3 runs, thats not a buff, it just lowers the tier of the reward. Eventually you'll be swimming in Loki systems and want the next rarest thing. If nothing is rare, then you wont find ANYTHING rewarding. If you dont find anything rewarding you'll ask for some rare rewards. if those rare rewards are hard to get then you ask to make things more rewarding and it goes on in an endless loop.

 

I think the games progression is fine. i can level an item to 30 in 2-3 days without using grind spots or boosters. I can always create new weapons to try, and there are many frames that are not hard to get. There is a TON of non(heavy)  RNG content i can go through at a steady pace. Then there are mods. I can get essential mods rather easily. i can get nightmare mods. i can get augment mods that dont involve RNG. i can get syndicate weapon mods that dont involve RNG. i can get cores rather reliably to level my mods to at least tier 8 rather easily. There is much to do in this game without excessive grinding.

 

-then there are primes, arcanes and rare mods. They provide an extra layer of rewards. They are rare to keep you playing, to keep you motivated and to keep you engaged. Of course you want them, but they are only special because its not easy to get them. No one values redirection- why? not because it doesnt provide value, its because its common and easy to get. 

 

What this game needs is to provide intrinsic value to playing content. For me, this would mean making the game more challenging. I want to be rewarded for modding my equipment and my skills by being able to test my limits in a fair way (not just armor scaling). I want the star chart to provide a sense of progression at all times- i want to feel like im doing something within the games universe and not just staring at a level select screen.

 

People camp and grind because thats ALL there is to do. People camp and grind because some people just love to camp and grind. Increasing the reward system just takes their purpose sooner and they are left with nothing and leave game. They leave the game or complain that they want MORE to grind for. 

 

The only way to combat camp and grind is by providing engaging gameplay that is rewarding in and of itself. PvP games usually dont have this issue because the competition is the intrinsic reward. A PvE game either needs an endless stream of content (not realistic) or a dynamic system where the player is enaged against the system.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Hypernaut1

[SickoSike]

-snip-

Nerfing enemy drops is one of the best solutions possible in my opinion on how we can discourage the loot cave to begin with, if we're able to somehow transfer that loot into a specific mission type, it should happen. You have to understand that there needs to be a balance doing mass amount of killings like Draco, E gate or Vivergate that actually rewards you so much by just abusing the map tiles that it is insane, and needs to be nerfed to a point where we have more viable methods of farming other than just stand in one position and camp and that is by buffing the reward system, just actually playing a normal game rewards you more than playing a lazy man's game. A Draco run with camp method provides you 6-10 Orokin cells easily in 20 minutes, a dark sector defense run on Jupiter will easily get you Neurol sensors, so why don't we actually promote the reward system by putting the resources in the rotation systems rather than common mods that are placed in at the moment, easily attained by killing enemies which is ridiculous. And remove resources like orokin cells from T4 Survival which in that can be exchanged for R5 Cores and make a top tier endgame reward seem more pleasing.

Edit: If you don't nerf drop rates and improve some other ways of what you're trying to suggest, what missions you would try to suggest, change, improve and implement reward and benefit players largely rather than camping from an E gate run where it provides you over 200k credits over 10k+ resources, over 500 mods, 125+ regular fusion cores 10+ gold r5's at least 25 odd cores within 30 mins and having over 300k credits worth of mods and oberon parts ready at your disposal to sell, so basically you make 500k credits+ fusion fodder in 30 mins lets calculate 125 R3 Common cores into R5 Cores. Those numbers Im giving you right now were the average of a 30 minute run when E gate was abused.

5.5 R3 Cores= 1 rare R5 Core.

125/5.5=22.7 let's makethat 23 Rare Cores

1.5 Odd Rare 5=1 R5 Rare core=16.6 rare cores round it up to be 17 per run

within 30 mins of abusing 1 map tile similar to E gate you will get 23+17+10= 50 rare R5 Cores in 1 Run.

how does this not need a nerf? when you're able to implement the most effective and efficient method to farm and kill mass units, doesn't have to be draco there a ton of other maps you can abuse this easily and it'll benefit you more than what a regular one would provide you let alone the awesome rewards T4 missions are giving right now.

if you're able to abuse a map tile correctly, given there is a map like Vivergate and E gate RIGHT NOW. you gotta understand these systems are very complex and the whole idea of the game rewards system being right now is completely flawed.

 

T4 Survival before actually gave you a large amount of R5 Cores that it was very good to run and progress in the game by making your mods stronger DE backpedaled that and Nerfed it, I'd appreciate it if they actually brought that back into this game, so now instead of struggling of trying to farm R5 Cores on Triton you can have T4 Survival give you multiple amount of cores as it used to before.

 

-snip-

By Buffing the reward system I wasn't specifically talking about lowering a tier of a reward, but I do feel that loki prime system if anything should be made more common as it was with the Loki prime helmet, if you appreciate how the game is being run at the moment, that's okay but you're missing the point, if you actually read the thread I was not talking about making top tier rewards easier to earn, I was talking about how the map tiles are being abused to a point where progression is actually INDEED unhealthy and way too rewarding when you can set up a camp site and just let the system spawn multiple of enemies running after you as you get rewarded more by just camping rather than actually playing this game, and to discourage this type of behavior with this unhealthy form of grind is to combat the rewards system in the regular missions, take out the useless rewards from rotations and actually provide some meaningful reward that people can have so they have other means of playing this game, and not just define everything by camping and grinding, I talked about specific points where hard counter enemies are not the solutions of having us actually be able to enjoy some sense of engaging game play and provide more AI rework and actually reward players by setting up specific challenges if they can achieve to be rewarded for actually playing.

you can level up an item 2-3 days, that seems healthy and fine, but players are doing it in 20 minutes at Draco as we're speaking right now.

I've also talked about nerfing the method of just camping, and that's by nerfing the drop rates of the enemies of how they are even further to discourage loot caves and promote more rewards for players to actually play the game DE has intended us to do in the first place, in your last sentence points out the main topic I was trying to bring up, because right now players are engaged against the system rather than trying to play this game. I've talked about and asked for more engaging game play for us to all enjoy, Star Chart 3.0 I hope DE Steve is either brilliant or he's insane. right now DE doesn't know what to exactly do but within the next two weeks they'll surprise us with the things we wouldn't be expecting, the first ''bright'' idea they had was to actually condense the nodes from the hundreds of nodes we have down to 20 nodes and change them on a weekly basis. Which was rather insane and many thought and realized in the end that it would actually damage the game further and not reward players by taking out content that they just released now, besides the star chart being flawed at the moment and in no way actually shows REAL Progression, they need to focus on their game mechanics, in the end I feel that's way more important, making the game more friendly using for beginning players, and reward players more based on their experience with the game and adjusting the rewards on how it's being released at the very moment, to not be based on kills.

Edited June 15, 2015 by mikecliffs

[FelisImpurrator]

The point is - nerfing enemy drops will just make people move onto the next cheese tactic.

 

My approach involves making drop rates fair to begin with, so no one actually needs to sit on a box all day and mash buttons. As it is now, the reason endless is so abused is because something like an Exterminate will almost certainly give you jack squat. With the way the drop table is structured, you basically have to shove hundreds of enemies through a sped-up grinder just to get more than one rare resource out of them. Change that, and you relieve some of the pressure.

 

And yes. I know just buffing drops makes people farm harder. Which is why other mission types and reward systems actually need to be reworked to be viable - if I can make six cells in 20 minutes camping a survival or an interception, I should be able to make six cells in 20 minutes running an exterminate or a capture or scouring the map for boxes in a sabotage.

 

You can't beat farming by nerfing it into the ground. It's just going to come back unless you address the root cause of it, artificial scarcity.

[SickoSike]

The point is - nerfing enemy drops will just make people move onto the next cheese tactic.

 

My approach involves making drop rates fair to begin with, so no one actually needs to sit on a box all day and mash buttons. As it is now, the reason endless is so abused is because something like an Exterminate will almost certainly give you jack squat. With the way the drop table is structured, you basically have to shove hundreds of enemies through a sped-up grinder just to get more than one rare resource out of them. Change that, and you relieve some of the pressure.

 

And yes. I know just buffing drops makes people farm harder. Which is why other mission types and reward systems actually need to be reworked to be viable - if I can make six cells in 20 minutes camping a survival or an interception, I should be able to make six cells in 20 minutes running an exterminate or a capture or scouring the map for boxes in a sabotage.

 

You can't beat farming by nerfing it into the ground. It's just going to come back unless you address the root cause of it, artificial scarcity.

''If I can make six cells in 20 minutes camping a survival or an interception, I should be able to make six cells in 20 minutes running an extermination or a capture or scouring the map for boxes in a sabotage.''

This idea seems to be good on paper, but you have to think how is the drop rate going to affect in an extermination here and if the drop rate is increased in extermination for a rare drop what would it mean for an overall balance of how an endless mission is going to be releasing the same similar enemies with the same drop rates from the drop table. I'm not sure what you're suggesting...either just buffing the rates of rare drops on enemies within specific mission types, or buff drop rates universally so that everyone can have a fair chance of getting an increased drop rate over something that's rare. If what you're suggesting is releasing a universal drop rate increase on all mission types then yes of course it's gonna benefit Draco even more, and other camping missions will get a dramatic large buff from this and that's not what we're all looking for. Now for specific mission types, if it's not a preset number of kills like extermination. Players will then start to try to stimulate the spawn rates and control it to make RNG be under their advantage again, when E gate was nerfed, not many people knew how to exactly replicate of what was a huge abuse and in turn looked into what behaviors allowed the system to spawn multiple enemies to be able to make it a loot cave again.

These missions will then have to be re-worked which is a lot of work for DE to fix possible situations such as capture, sabotage, mobile defense, deception, excavations and assassination missions to not be able to trigger any hordes of spawns coming at you without completing an objective, Excavation missions are a huge potential for a big problem and still easily and very much abused once you find your way around AI system to just spawn thousands upon thousands of spawns within minutes to your very own advantage and as soon as you can find the most efficient farming team in this game, it's home run for those players to be abusing another map tile set.

Edit: The problem with this game is camping, why allow camping to continue without any sort of hindrance? even if you manage to buff other missions with increased drop rates without influencing any nerfs on endless missions, what would entice players on choosing a different play mode or style when players will and I really mean will always seek out the most efficient way and easiest way to progress and get the things they need in this game, my idea I feel is more concrete on actually promoting rewards for those who play and nerf the camp teams just because of this, to entice other players to play other game modes, rather than have any sort of increased drop rates, just do a whole remake on the rewards system that actually benefits players on how they play...on what they need, depending on what missions they must do and be able to be rewarded for completing an objective.

and DE is already working somewhat close to that step seeing how alerts, and invasions are working at the moment for the materials players need and now syndicate missions along with cool free cosmetics and mods as well.

Edited June 15, 2015 by mikecliffs

[CarrotSalad]

Nothing wrong with camping imho. Spawn and AI behavior needs attention as attempting to run missions undetected is normally disrupted by enemies spawning and setting alarms right behind a tenno thats scouting. Enemies should camp and cover if tenno are camping. If tenno are rushing then enemies should rush/ambush too.

 

I can feel void burnout already. I Done a survival yesterday and only saw t1-t2 keys in the rewards. That was it, no prime parts or anything else. I want to hunt the glaive blade for my syndicate. No luck after 3 weeks of heavy playing. (by my standards) I can feel void burnout already having an effect on me and my enjoyment of the game.

 

This game is designed to burn people out. They need to take some steps out of the RNG process. Either by normallising all void keys or making specific keys garunteed from specific missions  They've been talking about changing up the void since tenno live yet we still have nothing? the solution is way overdue.

[SickoSike]

Nothing wrong with camping imho. Spawn and AI behavior needs attention as attempting to run missions undetected is normally disrupted by enemies spawning and setting alarms right behind a tenno thats scouting. Enemies should camp and cover if tenno are camping. If tenno are rushing then enemies should rush/ambush too.

 

I can feel void burnout already. I Done a survival yesterday and only saw t1-t2 keys in the rewards. That was it, no prime parts or anything else. I want to hunt the glaive blade for my syndicate. No luck after 3 weeks of heavy playing. (by my standards) I can feel void burnout already having an effect on me and my enjoyment of the game.

 

This game is designed to burn people out. They need to take some steps out of the RNG process. Either by normallising all void keys or making specific keys garunteed from specific missions  They've been talking about changing up the void since tenno live yet we still have nothing? the solution is way overdue.

Right, nothing is wrong with camping especially with a defense mission where you just stay near cryopod and make sure it doesn't die, but when you have missions like Draco and everyone is just taking advantage of the AI system, I'm kinda wondering how you feel about this because shouldn't there be some sort of fixing with that aspect of the game?

[CarrotSalad]

Right, nothing is wrong with camping especially with a defense mission where you just stay near cryopod and make sure it doesn't die, but when you have missions like Draco and everyone is just taking advantage of the AI system, I'm kinda wondering how you feel about this because shouldn't there be some sort of fixing with that aspect of the game?

Thats why i said spawn behaviour.

What i've noticed is mobs spawn in giant clusters close together. They stick to the same route to the player/s. If they were spread out, came from different locations or had other variations to the way they entered levels would places like viver still be an issue?

[SickoSike]

Depends, if all mobs can change behavior and spawn underneath to hide from mesa in Draco, Mesa relies heavily on LOS to be able to take out the mobs, a small wide open space map would allow effective farming with her, spawn behavior is an interesting way to look at things, and I did recommend a more engaging game play after all to counter the over use of camping methods.

Edited June 15, 2015 by mikecliffs

[CarrotSalad]

Depends, if all mobs can change behavior and spawn underneath to hide from mesa in Draco, Mesa relies heavily on LOS to be able to take out the mobs, a small wide open space map would allow effective farming with her, spawn behavior is an interesting way to look at things, and I did recommend a more engaging game play after all to counter the over use of camping methods.

Well all enemies should have varying behavior. In allot of shooters its common for Ai to spawn through skylights, paratroopers use ziplines to speed in etc. We dont see any of this type of AI or spawn behaviors in warframe. Indeed most AI are just bullet sponges with invulnerability phases that are taking route 1 to the players.

[CrimsonNightSky]

Part of me wants targeted rewards by mission.
For example - you want a specific toxin mod? Select your desired mod - Primary/Pistol/Melee - and that will be your targeted mod. Earth has plenty of toxin stockpiles - so toxin mods will be found there. For your performance on completing objectives you have an increased chance of getting the specific mod you want up to maybe 60-75% for perfect completion.

Want a large sum of credits? Your mission will be to raid a ship's supplies or maybe a Spy vault hack.
Weapon parts/plans? Raid a weapon factory.

These are just very rough ideas. The difficulty of the mission could even be tied to the tier of the reward desired (and players looking for a similar tier of reward could be grouped together).

[FelisImpurrator]

You can't kill camping without reworking the map design and the loot frames, but if you do that without boosting other things people will just find another spot... the problem isn't camping, the problem is the grind that makes camping appealing.

 

If I COULD get double the resources from a Draco run, BUT I could also just run whatever I want and get exactly what I need anyway, I wouldn't bother running Draco even if it had double the number of resources because farming like that is boring. Make it unnecessary, and... well, it will still happen, because some players actually think finding the 'most efficient' method of play is fun, but the people who don't find it fun and only do it out of necessity will probably stop and just play what they like playing.

 

There's also overbalancing. I don't want endless missions to become crap compared to others, either, but if drops from enemies are extremely rare and completing a mission is the only realistic way to get them, a five round defense suddenly becomes worthless next to running five captures - and then, instead of camping, now you'll have to deal with the polar opposite extreme, rushing. Rushes are already bad enough as it is.

 

It's a fine balance that needs to be kept. Attack camping, and rushing possibly benefits. Attack rushing, and camping possibly benefits. Both extremes need to be addressed at the same time. Not obliterated, but made unnecessary in the context of normal gameplay. When you can say "I can camp an intercept for four rounds or rush five caps at the speed of sound, but I don't need to because I can also go at whatever pace I feel like and still get the resources I want", that's when the grind problem is fixed.

[Davoodoo]

The point is - nerfing enemy drops will just make people move onto the next cheese tactic.

 

My approach involves making drop rates fair to begin with, so no one actually needs to sit on a box all day and mash buttons.

Its a bit too late for that. Ppl were pushed into cheesing so making everything fair wont stop them from cheesing, unless we reduce grind too much but then theres really no reason for me to play warframe more than 4 hours/week.

[FelisImpurrator]

Its a bit too late for that. Ppl were pushed into cheesing so making everything fair wont stop them from cheesing, unless we reduce grind too much but then theres really no reason for me to play warframe more than 4 hours/week.

The point was to make everything fair THEN nerf the cheese tactics. You can't have one without the other. The pressure has to be relieved somehow.

[tzaeru]

What this game needs is to provide intrinsic value to playing content. For me, this would mean making the game more challenging. I want to be rewarded for modding my equipment and my skills by being able to test my limits in a fair way (not just armor scaling). I want the star chart to provide a sense of progression at all times- i want to feel like im doing something within the games universe and not just staring at a level select screen.

 

Pretty much this.

Warframe is not a very lenghty game if you cut out repeated farming for Prime parts/Syndicate points. Maybe 20-30 hours in-missions and 50 hours total on the ship and wiki and forums and missions. Farming parts doesn't need to necessarily be much faster per-say, but what it does need to be, is to be exciting on its own. It needs to have a challenge. Right now there's no challenge. I don't remember when I last failed 20 waves of any defense or minimum of 20 minutes of any survival and I'm only mastery rank 6... Can't imagine how boring it must be for people with five times my playtime.

 

Again, TL;DR: Game's too easy. Challenge curve isn't good. Can't realistically "fix" (if such is even needed) rewards before the aforementioned are fixed.

Edited June 15, 2015 by tzaeru

[A.T.R.A.]

Pretty much this.

Warframe is not a very lenghty game if you cut out repeated farming for Prime parts/Syndicate points. Maybe 20-30 hours in-missions and 50 hours total on the ship and wiki and forums and missions. Farming parts doesn't need to necessarily be much faster per-say, but what it does need to be, is to be exciting on its own. It needs to have a challenge. Right now there's no challenge. I don't remember when I last failed 20 waves of any defense or minimum of 20 minutes of any survival and I'm only mastery rank 6... Can't imagine how boring it must be for people with five times my playtime.

 

Again, TL;DR: Game's too easy. Challenge curve isn't good. Can't realistically "fix" (if such is even needed) rewards before the aforementioned are fixed.

trust me warframe has become pretty boring 

 

ive played for 2 years now and just to see that recruiting nobody want to go past 20 waves on anything or they just want to cheese something to fast farm is seriously sad and pisses me off

 

i love how this game was wayyyy back in U9 

 

all i do in warframe now i screenshot my stupid high paris prime crits :( forever trying to get larger ones while i wait for somebody to want to go for a "TIL I DIE"  run in survival or defense

 

 

 

isnt the bigger issue that we farm to get mroe OP weapons to cheese faster?