What Is Up With Ember's Ult

[dmantacos]

Ok disclaimer: this is my opinion

 

what is up with ember's ult?! 

 

ive been playing her because ive had her forever and just decided to start lvling her, her ult seems so odd, why should it be duration?This to me seems like the kind of ability that should be a drain instead of a duration. 

 

Why though?

 

Mesa's ult is a constant event that deals damage and drains power as it is used(not limited by duration)

Mirage's ult is a constant event that deals damage and drains power as it is used

Chroma's ult is a constant event that deals damage and drains power as it is used(not limited by duration)

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Excalibur,mag,saryn,rhino,frost (the list goes on) all have ults that are Single event and cost one base amount of energy

 

now i know what you are saying now."what about the zephyr"

well zephyr's ult initially creates uncontrollable tornados, nothing more happens after that initial event, no continuous lasers, dragon vomit, or gunshots get fired at enemies after that, the tornados are the only thing that occurs during the ult

 

then...we get to ember.

 

Ember's ult is a constant event that deals damage and drains power as it is used, unlike most other frames. Ember creates new damage blasts throughout her ult, it is not just one initial event and nothing else, so in my opinion ember's ult should be an energy over time cost, but not a duration cost aswell

 

well if you read that much thanks for reading :) 

Edited June 12, 2015 by -Himari-
Edited title to comply with forum policy.

[NyxCrab]

I'd just like to point out that Mirage's ult is affected by duration. But yeah it's kinda crappy that's Ember's ult is limited by duration whereas most other ults that drain energy over time aren't affected by duration.

[DeMonkey]

Mirage's ult is a constant event that deals damage and drains power as it is used(not limited by duration)

Sorry but wrong. 

 

Ember's ult is a constant event that deals damage and does not drain power as it is used as it is duration based, unlike any other frame. 

Sorry but also wrong.

 

As an example, this would give you the ability to stand in one place with constant flame explosions around you for as long as you have energy (Which, when using a G-Mag, can be forever), that is not balanced. That is even less user friendly than peacemaker, at least peacemaker requires you to press 'fire' at least once.

 

Edit: Please forgive my grumpiness.

Edited June 12, 2015 by DeMonkey

[ApolloXIII]

Pretty common belief actually, just look at it as a limiter. A high damage ember could turn her ult on and just run around nuking everything and grabbing energy drops to keep it forever, without having to fire a bullet save for the stray heavy enemy (depending on where you're playing of course)

[dmantacos]

Wrong. 

 

Also wrong.

 

It's hard to explain why world on fire works the way it does when the person you're explaining it too doesn't actually know how it works to begin with.

 

When you know, take a good long think about this thing called balance. As an example, this gives you the ability to stand in one place with constant flame explosions around you for as long as you have energy (Which, when using a G-Mag, can be forever), that is not balanced. That is even less user friendly than peacemaker, at least peacemaker requires you to press 'fire' at least once.

Actually goofd on that so thanks for heads up but u are wrong in that a gmag pulling to a central location would work on infested but unless the gmag follows u everywhere u go perfectly it wouldnt be usefull against most other enemies :/ also I said IMO which means i tried to keep this as least condescending as possible, but thanks for making the feedback forums a place where people don't want to give feedback for fear of ridicule :)  

[NoggDog117]

 

Mirage's ult is a constant event that deals damage and drains power as it is used

 

Wrong. 

Not wrong at all. When you use Mirage's ult, it is a disco ball that does, indeed, deal damage (via lasers) and drain Mirage's energy supply, rather quickly I might add. The only thing that isn't too constant about it is that it moves separately from Mirage, but even then it goes where you point on cast, bouncing off walls in the process if any are involved. You can even cancel it early!

[ApolloXIII]

Wrong. 

 

Also wrong.

 

It's hard to explain why world on fire works the way it does when the person you're explaining it too doesn't actually know how it works to begin with.

 

When you know, take a good long think about this thing called balance.

Care to be polite, no need to shoot someone down for not knowing, especially if they are new, or just not up to date.

[DeMonkey]

Not wrong at all. When you use Mirage's ult, it is a disco ball that does, indeed, deal damage (via lasers) and drain Mirage's energy supply, rather quickly I might add. The only thing that isn't too constant about it is that it moves separately from Mirage, but even then it goes where you point on cast, bouncing off walls in the process if any are involved. You can even cancel it early!

You missed the bit where it said (not limited by duration), which is the bit that was wrong.

[Aislingual]

Sorry but wrong. 

 

Sorry but also wrong.

 

As an example, this would give you the ability to stand in one place with constant flame explosions around you for as long as you have energy (Which, when using a G-Mag, can be forever), that is not balanced. That is even less user friendly than peacemaker, at least peacemaker requires you to press 'fire' at least once.

 

Edit: Please forgive my grumpiness.

 

Banshee's earthquake lets you stand in one place with damage going on constantly around you while stunlocking everything for as long as you have energy. Without even having to press 'fire' at least once. *shrug*

[dmantacos]

Not wrong at all. When you use Mirage's ult, it is a disco ball that does, indeed, deal damage (via lasers) and drain Mirage's energy supply, rather quickly I might add. The only thing that isn't too constant about it is that it moves separately from Mirage, but even then it goes where you point on cast, bouncing off walls in the process if any are involved. You can even cancel it early!

Debby downer is right i did edit that out after i learned that mirages ult was effected by duration(learning from forums in a civilized manor, crazy right!!) xD but i still think ember shouldnt have duration :) 

 

Sorry but wrong. 

 

Sorry but also wrong.

 

As an example, this would give you the ability to stand in one place with constant flame explosions around you for as long as you have energy (Which, when using a G-Mag, can be forever), that is not balanced. That is even less user friendly than peacemaker, at least peacemaker requires you to press 'fire' at least once.

 

Edit: Please forgive my grumpiness.

And demonkey no worries weve all been grumpy :) thanks for the info though

[DeMonkey]

Banshee's earthquake lets you stand in one place with damage going on constantly around you while stunlocking everything for as long as you have energy. Without even having to press 'fire' at least once. *shrug*

You have a point. However Peacemaker and WoF are more or less designed to kill whereas Sound Quake is more for stuns. WoF also gives you the option to run around.

 

I dunno, ive used it in T4D and it reliably kills, but i feel it needs the limitation of duration to make up for how powerful it can be when used in conjunction with accelerant. 

 

And demonkey no worries weve all been grumpy :) 

Thanks

[Archwizard]

Mesa's ult is a constant event that deals damage and drains power as it is used(not limited by duration)

Mirage's ult is a constant event that deals damage and drains power as it is used

Chroma's ult is a constant event that deals damage and drains power as it is used(not limited by duration)

 

Let's talk about Toggled skills.

 

Presently, there are 9 Toggled abilities in the game:

 

World on Fire

Renewal

Prism

Peacemaker

Soundquake

Absorb

Undertow

Spectral Scream

Effigy

 

Of those, only the top 3 are affected by Duration as well. But do you know why?

 

Peacemaker, Soundquake, Absorb and Undertow penalize you while they're active; you're immobile, and aside from (near-)passive damage and CC in a radius, can do absolutely nothing. Spectral Scream penalizes your movement speed while active, but holds the lowest penalty because it's just a Basic attack, balanced to be on par with Fireball. Effigy penalizes your survivability while active in return for its effects.

All of these penalties are constant effects, unaffected by mods. No amount of speed mods will increase you from "zero", and the armor debuff will scale up with Steel Fiber.

 

The remaining 3 abilities are completely passive in their effects. Once you activate them, you can be completely unconcerned with their continued effects.

DE balances all of their toggled skills such that - energy costs notwithstanding (which high Power Efficiency, Trinity and Limbo can bypass anyway) - you eventually want to turn them off. Sure, you can leave Soundquake up literally forever with the right setup, but you can't dodge or pick up loot, and will eventually force the AFK timer to strip you of rewards.

Logically, why would you ever want to turn off a persistent radial CC, or partywide heal, that allows you to run and shoot while active? The answer is, you wouldn't - so DE forced the choice for you.

 

So unless you can think of any other reason for an Ember player to eventually turn off World on Fire, that can't simply be bypassed?

Edited June 12, 2015 by Archwizard

[dmantacos]

Let's talk about Toggled skills.

 

Presently, there are 9 Toggled abilities in the game:

 

World on Fire

Renewal

Prism

Peacemaker

Soundquake

Absorb

Undertow

Spectral Scream

Effigy

 

Of those, only the top 3 are affected by Duration as well. But do you know why?

 

Peacemaker, Soundquake, Absorb and Undertow penalize you while they're active; you're immobile, and aside from (near-)passive damage and CC in a radius, can do absolutely nothing. Spectral Scream penalizes your movement speed while active, but holds the lowest penalty because it's just a Basic attack, balanced to be on par with Fireball. Effigy penalizes your survivability while active in return for its effects.

All of these penalties are constant effects, unaffected by mods. No amount of speed mods will increase you from "zero", and the armor debuff will scale up with Steel Fiber.

 

The remaining 3 abilities are completely passive in their effects. Once you activate them, you can be completely unconcerned with their continued effects.

DE balances all of their toggled skills such that - energy costs notwithstanding (which high Power Efficiency, Trinity and Limbo can bypass anyway) - you eventually want to turn them off. Sure, you can leave Soundquake up literally forever with the right setup, but you can't dodge or pick up loot, and will eventually force the AFK timer to strip you of rewards.

Logically, why would you ever want to turn off a persistent radial CC, or partywide heal, that allows you to run and shoot while active? The answer is, you wouldn't - so DE forced the choice for you.

 

So unless you can think of any other reason for an Ember player to eventually turn off World on Fire, that can't simply be bypassed?

I do see what your saying but i have to disagree in that, absorb is toggled but i would hardly call it penalizing you with immobility, you are invincible, maybe an ability rework could work for her, i would rather see a steeper wof that doesn't prioritize enemies then a duration based one that does, that's probably just me though, also considering heat is not exactly the best elemental damage type in the game and only one explosion can occur at a single moment i don't really see it as overpowered. Not to mention that energy siphon is disabled during the ability really the only way to keep it on forever would be to have a trinity which is quite circumstantial, i can see this being incredibly overpowered against infested that will run to you anyways, but i don't see it as being as overpowered as others may think, especially in high tier void missions where enemies have armor anyways, thank you very much for your input kind sir :) these discussions thrive when everyone contributes!

Edited June 12, 2015 by dmantacos

[Archwizard]

I do see what your saying but i have to disagree in that, absorb is toggled but i would hardly call it penalizing you with immobility, you are invincible

 

Try telling that to the people who had to live with it when it was Durational and non-toggled.

 

Even if you can't die, you can still be penalized. A Nyx in Absorb still has a reason to turn it off.

 

considering heat is not exactly the best elemental damage type in the game and only one explosion can occur at a single moment i don't really see it as overpowered. 

 

Nobody's calling it overpowered - I'm saying it's passive damage.

World on Fire without the Duration cap: You turn it on at the start of a mission and just keep grabbing energy orbs. With the right setup, you only turn it off at extraction. You do nothing but run from Point A to Point B, free XP.

Even in a higher-level mission when it can't kill targets on its own, you turn it on and it's just a constant effect that supplements your attacks with bursts of fire. At that point, you could literally just scrap the skill, replace it with a passive "Attacks deal X% additional Heat damage that doesn't combine with mods", and you've lost literally nothing.

The point of an ability, especially in an arsenal limited to 4, is to keep having you push the button; otherwise it's a waste of a slot and kit potential.

 

Not to mention that energy siphon is disabled during the ability

 

Note that I never mentioned Energy Siphon, or restores for that matter, for exactly that reason.

However, Rift effects caused by Limbo are not disabled, nor are Rage or pickups. There's even a very popular stat devoted to drawing out a little amount over a very long time. 

It's not just "circumstantial" Trinity; the reason why energy alone isn't a steep enough penalty is because players have all sorts of ways around a lack of it. Just look around these forums at all the complaints about it being too easy.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Archwizard

[DeMonkey]

Nobody's calling it overpowered 

Eh, i would. Max power WoF does ~1136 heat damage with a 99.4% chance to proc heat (Virtually guaranteed). Accelerant can multiply that by 710% which if my maths is right (probably isn't), is over 9000 damage per explosion. Admittedly It's very likely that if WoF were a toggleable channeling ability we'd all run it with max effciency instead, but yeah. That amount of damage happening 2 - 4 times a second for as long as you have energy. It seems a little insane.

[Judgebanks]

Eh, i would. Max power WoF does ~1136 heat damage with a 99.4% chance to proc heat (Virtually guaranteed). Accelerant can multiply that by 710% which if my maths is right (probably isn't), is over 9000 damage per explosion. Admittedly It's very likely that if WoF were a toggleable channeling ability we'd all run it with max effciency instead, but yeah. That amount of damage happening 2 - 4 times a second for as long as you have energy. It seems a little insane.

On level 95 HG's you're dealing 450 dps with an ult.

 

Everyone step aside, top tier over powered Ember coming through that fat four-hundred-fifty deeps.

[elele]

Let's talk about Toggled skills.

 

Presently, there are 9 Toggled abilities in the game:

 

World on Fire

Renewal

Prism

Peacemaker

Soundquake

Absorb

Undertow

Spectral Scream

Effigy

 

Of those, only the top 3 are affected by Duration as well. But do you know why?

 

Peacemaker, Soundquake, Absorb and Undertow penalize you while they're active; you're immobile, and aside from (near-)passive damage and CC in a radius, can do absolutely nothing. Spectral Scream penalizes your movement speed while active, but holds the lowest penalty because it's just a Basic attack, balanced to be on par with Fireball. Effigy penalizes your survivability while active in return for its effects.

All of these penalties are constant effects, unaffected by mods. No amount of speed mods will increase you from "zero", and the armor debuff will scale up with Steel Fiber.

 

The remaining 3 abilities are completely passive in their effects. Once you activate them, you can be completely unconcerned with their continued effects.

DE balances all of their toggled skills such that - energy costs notwithstanding (which high Power Efficiency, Trinity and Limbo can bypass anyway) - you eventually want to turn them off. Sure, you can leave Soundquake up literally forever with the right setup, but you can't dodge or pick up loot, and will eventually force the AFK timer to strip you of rewards.

Logically, why would you ever want to turn off a persistent radial CC, or partywide heal, that allows you to run and shoot while active? The answer is, you wouldn't - so DE forced the choice for you.

 

So unless you can think of any other reason for an Ember player to eventually turn off World on Fire, that can't simply be bypassed?

 

Excellent reasoning. 

[The-Storm]

Just an interesting little thing.

EDIT: WELL.... duration will be gone, just saw devstream 54. (Talking about Frost)

Edited June 12, 2015 by The-Storm

[Ronyn]

Let's talk about Toggled skills.

 

Presently, there are 9 Toggled abilities in the game:

 

World on Fire

Renewal

Prism

Peacemaker

Soundquake

Absorb

Undertow

Spectral Scream

Effigy

 

Of those, only the top 3 are affected by Duration as well. But do you know why?

 

Peacemaker, Soundquake, Absorb and Undertow penalize you while they're active; you're immobile, and aside from (near-)passive damage and CC in a radius, can do absolutely nothing. Spectral Scream penalizes your movement speed while active, but holds the lowest penalty because it's just a Basic attack, balanced to be on par with Fireball. Effigy penalizes your survivability while active in return for its effects.

All of these penalties are constant effects, unaffected by mods. No amount of speed mods will increase you from "zero", and the armor debuff will scale up with Steel Fiber.

 

The remaining 3 abilities are completely passive in their effects. Once you activate them, you can be completely unconcerned with their continued effects.

DE balances all of their toggled skills such that - energy costs notwithstanding (which high Power Efficiency, Trinity and Limbo can bypass anyway) - you eventually want to turn them off. Sure, you can leave Soundquake up literally forever with the right setup, but you can't dodge or pick up loot, and will eventually force the AFK timer to strip you of rewards.

Logically, why would you ever want to turn off a persistent radial CC, or partywide heal, that allows you to run and shoot while active? The answer is, you wouldn't - so DE forced the choice for you.

 

So unless you can think of any other reason for an Ember player to eventually turn off World on Fire, that can't simply be bypassed?

A rare moment on the boards where I see someone showcase some sound understanding of design logic and the finer points of what balance means...

thank you.

[EvilChaosKnight]

Let's talk about Toggled skills.

 

Presently, there are 9 Toggled abilities in the game:

 

World on Fire

Renewal

Prism

Peacemaker

Soundquake

Absorb

Undertow

Spectral Scream

Effigy

 

Of those, only the top 3 are affected by Duration as well. But do you know why?

 

1. Prism produces a HUGE flashbang when you deactivate it or timer runs out. It also travels on its own not tied to you.

2. Renewal actually grants initial healing pulse when you cast it.

3. WoF.... yeah, nothing's happening here. You have to hug your enemies and, if you leave the comfortable embrace of the normal star chart, you will quickly find that it might end badly pretty damn quick. Even on Ceres you are more likely to flop.

 

To put it simple, every other timed toggle-based ability:

a. Doesn't have to happen close to the enemy to be effective. Renewal in fact has infinite range as we speak, Mirage can just toss the prism in enemy's general direction.

b. Has a bonus either at the start or at the end.

 

So your argument is not withstanding, sorry.

Edited June 12, 2015 by EvilChaosKnight

[DeMonkey]

On level 95 HG's you're dealing 450 dps with an ult.

 

Everyone step aside, top tier over powered Ember coming through that fat four-hundred-fifty deeps.

Hey look a strawman, how original.

 

Its unlikely that you'll be fighting level 95 HG's without 4CP's. Consider also the standard range of enemies that we actually fight. The ones that aren't grossly overleveled. 

[dmantacos]

Eh, i would. Max power WoF does ~1136 heat damage with a 99.4% chance to proc heat (Virtually guaranteed). Accelerant can multiply that by 710% which if my maths is right (probably isn't), is over 9000 damage per explosion. Admittedly It's very likely that if WoF were a toggleable channeling ability we'd all run it with max effciency instead, but yeah. That amount of damage happening 2 - 4 times a second for as long as you have energy. It seems a little insane.

 

On level 95 HG's you're dealing 450 dps with an ult.

 

Everyone step aside, top tier over powered Ember coming through that fat four-hundred-fifty deeps.

Ok i just tested this, i put 270% power strength on ember and went out to the similacrum

 

Against a lvl 75 heavy gunner (high tier void) it did 86 damage per second on the fire and the blast was also in the double digits

you couldn't even see the health bar go down

 

I think even if ember's ult was without duration it would still be incredibly situational, you wouldn't take ember into a high tier void because the damage simply isn't there, I dont think this would be overpowered because it is exactly the same as mag, hear me out,

when is the last time you took a greedy mag into an exterminate?capture?sabotage? it isnt needed there, this would be the exact same, you could take ember into a mid tier mission and wreck,true, but the heat damage is pretty pitiful in a t4 where people have armor, honestly it seems more useful at a t4 just to do an efficient duration build just for the knock prock and take a good melee xD. Welp thats my 2 cents

[Ronyn]

 

To put it simple, every other timed toggle-based ability:

a. Doesn't have to happen close to the enemy to be effective. Renewal in fact has infinite range as we speak, Mirage can just toss the prism in enemy's general direction.

b. Has a bonus either at the start or at the end.

Going to respond to those in reverse order for simplicity sake.

b: World on Fire hits up to 5 targets immediately upon activation, then starts to look for other targets. That would be the "bonus" at the start.

a: This point has merit. 

Though it's more a symptom of Embers strangely "close range" power design. Accelerant, Fireblast and WOF are all radial attacks based on her position. That in mind we need to ask ourselves-

1: should her powers be so centralized on her position or should be able to aim her powers at range like hydroid and zephyr can. 

2: Is ember sturdy enough to be a close range made or should she gain some additional survivability aspects to make her better suited to that role.

 

So your argument is not withstanding, sorry.

His argument remains valid. He brought up several factors that need to be considered. In the most basic sense, he is just plain right that there would be no reason to turn it off as long as there was orbs to find. Can't get around that.

What you have done is brought up an additional factor, range, that also needs to be considered when talking about how to balance her powers.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

We should not look at these discussions as adversarial. Not as a binary right/wrong kind of thing....

we need to view these discussion more as collaborating to find all relevant issues so we can seek better understanding and solutions.

 

EDIT: 

 

Ok i just tested this, i put 270% power strength on ember and went out to the similacrum

 

Against a lvl 75 heavy gunner (high tier void) it did 86 damage per second on the fire and the blast was also in the double digits

you couldn't even see the health bar go down

 

I think even if ember's ult was without duration it would still be incredibly situational, you wouldn't take ember into a high tier void because the damage simply isn't there, I dont think this would be overpowered because it is exactly the same as mag, hear me out,

when is the last time you took a greedy mag into an exterminate?capture?sabotage? it isnt needed there, this would be the exact same, you could take ember into a mid tier mission and wreck,true, but the heat damage is pretty pitiful in a t4 where people have armor, honestly it seems more useful at a t4 just to do an efficient duration build just for the knock prock and take a good melee xD. Welp thats my 2 cents

If her ult is doing that low of damage I'd argue that the problem is its damage output not it's use/duration mechanics.

Honestly damage that low is just plain bunk regardless of how the use/mechanics work. So let's look at solving the damage issue directly.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Ronyn

[dmantacos]

 

 

 

We should not look at these discussions as adversarial. Not as a binary right/wrong kind of thing....

we need to view these discussion more as collaborating to find all relevant issues so we can seek better understanding and solutions.

 

 

That^^ right there. i just wanna say thankyou , tired of salt in the forums because people saying others are wrong xD That is very true, and also, i guess if the damage was steeper i wouldn't mind duration as much

[Ryjeon]

Ok i just tested this, i put 270% power strength on ember and went out to the similacrum

 

Against a lvl 75 heavy gunner (high tier void) it did 86 damage per second on the fire and the blast was also in the double digits

you couldn't even see the health bar go down

 

I think even if ember's ult was without duration it would still be incredibly situational, you wouldn't take ember into a high tier void because the damage simply isn't there, I dont think this would be overpowered because it is exactly the same as mag, hear me out,

when is the last time you took a greedy mag into an exterminate?capture?sabotage? it isnt needed there, this would be the exact same, you could take ember into a mid tier mission and wreck,true, but the heat damage is pretty pitiful in a t4 where people have armor, honestly it seems more useful at a t4 just to do an efficient duration build just for the knock prock and take a good melee xD. Welp thats my 2 cents

 

Against high level enemies you don't rely on World on Fire as your primary source of damage. Its an aura you keep on to add to your overall combat pressure. World on Fire watches your back and distributes burn procs across a group of enemies often destroying low health targets like shield ospreys and corrupted crewman. It is passive area damage that doesn't prevent you from continuing to focus-fire your Accelerant buffed or status utility weapons on priority targets or even simultaneous fireballing if your team is giving you the excess energy. Also did you even cast Accelerant? Or Run Corrosive Projection?

 

High level play is all about preparation. There are numerous tools and synergies to circumvent enemy conditions. Learning to overcome these obstacles is part of the game itself. If one simple tactic is always one hundred percent successful in every scenario then it's shallow gameplay. I have no problem keeping up a steady contribution of damage and crowd control in a high level environment. In 30+ minute T4S I'm often the one running off to safely grab life support. And I can solo wave 4 of Draco without issue. Non-endless T4 towers are a cakewallk.

 

Allow me to illustrate how you can use Ember in high levels. http://i.imgur.com/qvp5HMx.png This is an hour long ODS where I was pretty much the sole-damage dealer and the vast majority of my damage came from abilities. I casted 1700 times in this mission compared to the Mag's 1600. But the Mag-Nekros combo and generosity with Energy Restores was a big help towards playing at max output. It was a lot of fun I had to be constantly shooting, moving, and casting. I run a Radiation Amprex vs Infested which does practically no damage but has the amazing quality of disabling the damage resistance auras of  ancient healers and disruptors, and the damaging auras of toxic ancients. I also frequently used Fire Blast especially to clear Moa Tar. And at times I machine-gunned Fireball while keeping my Amprex Radiation procs up. Ember is the closest this game gets to having a spell rotation.

 

The team wanted me to go Mesa, but with Mesa I would not have been able to provide the utility of Radiation procs and Moa Tar clearing while keeping up persistent damage pressure up to level 120 enemies. In high level Void run Atomos, either Corrosive/Heat or Viral/Heat. It's absolutely best in slot for Ember and no conversation about high level Ember should overlook Atomos. That weapon is pretty much a huge Ember buff in itself.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Ryjeon