If You Remove Coptering You Might As Well Remove The Entirety Of Melee.

[TheBrsrkr]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Since we were talking about coptering, which is a melee bug, I assumed we would stay on the topic of melee. No other load out facet, save the Warframe itself, helps or hinders movements in any way.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Since we were talking about coptering, which is a melee bug, I assumed we would stay on the topic of melee. No other load out facet, save the Warframe itself, helps or hinders movements in any way.

Not when you make a wide reaching argument like "loadouts should not effect movement speed". After a claim like that, Warframes and Mods come into play as well.

 

I think melee weapons should be balance on a scale of fast to powerful, with good coptering weapons being less damaging and vice versa.  If your claim is that nothing in your load out should effect speed by principle then frames and mods should also be covered by that. Rhino should not be able to equip a mod to sprint more quickly, and Loki should be just as slow and Rhino.

[TheBrsrkr]

Not when you make a wide reaching argument like "loadouts should not effect movement speed". After a claim like that, Warframes and Mods come into play as well.

I think melee weapons should be balance on a scale of fast to powerful, with good coptering weapons being less damaging and vice versa. If your claim is that nothing in your load out should effect speed by principle then frames and mods should also be covered by that. Rhino should not be able to equip a mod to sprint more quickly, and Loki should be just as slow and Rhino.

You know, the entire discussion so far was about melee. A rational person would assume that I was talking about melee load outs.

[AlphaHorseman]

How's about we actually make Melee stronger, then? Since people use a primarily offensive attack function for movement (or so you say), make that offensive primary function comparable to guns.

 

We also have directional air melee, and a newly reworked Parkour system incoming. Movement is getting worked on very nicely, thankfully. Let's hope that a Melee 3.0 comes along sometime soon.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

How's about we actually make Melee stronger, then? Since people use a primarily offensive attack function for movement (or so you say), make that offensive primary function comparable to guns.

 

We also have directional air melee, and a newly reworked Parkour system incoming. Movement is getting worked on very nicely, thankfully. Let's hope that a Melee 3.0 comes along sometime soon.

The problem is, melee doesn't really stand a chance, and it isn't fun.  Excal's new ultimate looks fun, but they did that by basically turning it into a gun.

[AlphaHorseman]

The problem is, melee doesn't really stand a chance, and it isn't fun.  Excal's new ultimate looks fun, but they did that by basically turning it into a gun.

Hmm, maybe the incoming Stamina changes could give rise to more changes?

 

Increasing melee damage, giving melee weapons instances like faster movement, more impact on the battlefield, and improved mechanics with the new parkour 2.0, along with more changes, it could help to grow melee to be comparable to weaponry. Any other suggestions to help melee along?

 

Oh I forgot to add: Increasing the melee counter timer, and the multiplier, can help as well.

Edited June 20, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Hmm, maybe the incoming Stamina changes could give rise to more changes?

 

Increasing melee damage, giving melee weapons instances like faster movement, more impact on the battlefield, and improved mechanics with the new parkour 2.0, along with more changes, it could help to grow melee to be comparable to weaponry. Any other suggestions to help melee along?

 

Oh I forgot to add: Increasing the melee counter timer, and the multiplier, can help as well.

It would be nice if the counter lasted longer, but the only way to make Melee compete with guns is to make each slash do several thousand damage per hit on a regular hit and make channelling automatic and not use energy.  However, by doing that, you render the stance combos pointless.

Edited June 20, 2015 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[AlphaHorseman]

It would be nice if the counter lasted longer, but the only way to make Melee compete with guns is to make each slash do several thousand damage per hit on a regular hit and make channelling automatic and not use energy.  However, by doing that, you render the stance combos pointless.

How so? The stances could be expanded to provide other benefits, to help melee scale into late-game. Such as how some stances have their initial hit or a certain strike guarantee a crit attack of high damage, I believe Crimson Dervish applies this mechanic. Also, the automatic AoE Knockdown provided by the Dex Dakra Prime can show how other mechanics added into melee can individualize it from guns, but also ensure that melee can scale into later content.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

How so? The stances could be expanded to provide other benefits, to help melee scale into late-game. Such as how some stances have their initial hit or a certain strike guarantee a crit attack of high damage, I believe Crimson Dervish applies this mechanic. Also, the automatic AoE Knockdown provided by the Dex Dakra Prime can show how other mechanics added into melee can individualize it from guns, but also ensure that melee can scale into later content.

Because if you aren't putting out thousands of damage per hit then the melee isn't going to compare to guns. If you are putting out that much damage then you are going to be one shotting everything. Once you are to the point where you no longer one shot everything, you won't want to be within melee range, especially since they all seem to group up.

[motorfirebox]

Why would I do something uncomforable and hard like Parkour 2.0 when I could keep doing the same old working system of Coptering. I don't care the DE spent time and money on this new system. I don't want to learn something new when what I know works fine.

Man, are you playing the wrong game.

[Sakatchi]

In Warframe, melees are only useful for movement enhancement only. Period.

 

You can be a invisilbe loki using dual ichors and your melee dps still doesn't keep up with your guns. All melees are weak compared to guns, but they are still useful because they can aid your movement (hence why people don't like using weapons that are too slow like scythes and axes). But with parkour 2.0 they are planning to remove the coptering and air meleeing capabilites from melee weapons, which will utterly ruin melees.

I think you should try to mod a mele weapon for damage, Instead of coptering before you make asinine conclusions like that.

[AlphaHorseman]

Because if you aren't putting out thousands of damage per hit then the melee isn't going to compare to guns. If you are putting out that much damage then you are going to be one shotting everything. Once you are to the point where you no longer one shot everything, you won't want to be within melee range, especially since they all seem to group up.

Ah I see what you mean. Although, maybe we could increase weapon mechanics in a sense that isn't just solely damage, as the Dex Dakra and Crimson Dervish stances do. Not to mention that this could help with weapon scale ability throughout the whole game, not just for end tier content.

[RealPandemonium]

As for DE not knowing their own game? I bet they know better than many of us might think. We just don't see the whole picture and assume we do. It is amazing how clear a movie scene is when all you focus on is one tiny corner of it, no? Or in this case, the visible game and the code that we can access. Which is literally the surface tip of an iceberg.

 

Not disagreeing. They do seem kind of schizophrenic on occasion. (not NEARLY as bad as EA or Ubisoft tho...) Just saying we don't know it all.

 

Some channel of communication with DE besides spamming Rebecca's inbox is needed, IMO.  DE needs to start valuing feedback from actual informed people that know the game well instead of reacting generally to public opinion that is often so misinformed that it's scary.  Let veteran players who are both knowledgeable and articulate have some direct or nearly direct communication with DE in the form of Q&A or some other format.  This would help the community understand what's going on with the game under the hood and explain DE's sometimes baffling design decisions.  In turn, those with the requisite knowledge could develop a proper understanding of the game's situation and return valuable feedback to DE.  

Edited June 21, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[LeeAmatsu]

If the aim of this isn't to stop people using Rhino all the time, then...RIP slow frames...

[Repligon]

I already pointed out a ton of things started out as glitches and because fun game play elements. 

Stop comparing coptering with rocket jumping or whatever. They are not alike. Yes they both started as bugs but there is an essential difference.

 

Rocket jumping does not devalue existing movement system. It serves as a skill demanding addition to it.

It is good when you use it as an addition to intended mechanic.

 

Meanwhile coptering cripples parkour, warframes speed differences, mobility abilities etc. It even destroys the purpose of melee. You have to copter if you want to keep up with your teammates (yes yes, I know, "play solo"). Neither it is skill demanding.

In other words coptering is good when it used instead of intended mechanic.

 

If exploit came out of bug it doesn't mean it always have to be embraced. Look a bunny hopping which is way more similar to coptering. How many modern games embraced it?

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

In Warframe, melees are only useful for movement enhancement only. Period.

 

You can be a invisilbe loki using dual ichors and your melee dps still doesn't keep up with your guns. All melees are weak compared to guns, but they are still useful because they can aid your movement (hence why people don't like using weapons that are too slow like scythes and axes). But with parkour 2.0 they are planning to remove the coptering and air meleeing capabilites from melee weapons, which will utterly ruin melees.

Well that kinda sucks for Slow Warframes. Ill miss it. On another hand, We will be able to Block Bullets indefinitely without worry about stamina? Thats awesome but im pretty Sure DE will try to work around that since they take away all the fun. I miss hacking consoles while in Rift Walk with Limbo. :( My go to guy for Rescue missions. 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Stop comparing coptering with rocket jumping or whatever. They are not alike. Yes they both started as bugs but there is an essential difference.

 

Rocket jumping does not devalue existing movement system. It serves as a skill demanding addition to it.

It is good when you use it as an addition to intended mechanic.

 

Meanwhile coptering cripples parkour, warframes speed differences, mobility abilities etc. It even destroys the purpose of melee. You have to copter if you want to keep up with your teammates (yes yes, I know, "play solo"). Neither it is skill demanding.

In other words coptering is good when it used instead of intended mechanic.

 

If exploit came out of bug it doesn't mean it always have to be embraced. Look a bunny hopping which is way more similar to coptering. How many modern games embraced it?

Wall running is terrible.  Taking away coptering isn't going to make it better.

[Riasiru]

Roflcopter going away? Welp, guess we're all gonna be running Loki/Volt now. Infinite stamina is great and all, but it won't matter if we can't catch the fast frames that kill everything before we even get in the room. I hope Update 17 doesn't happen too soon. I just got Rhino Prime and... Wait, nevermind. I have his arcane helmets... Little miffed that Rush is gonna end up being a mandatory mod now... But... Ehh, oh well.

 

On a related note, I can probably stop bringing melee weapons with me on missions. When we gonna get a gun alone achievement? 

Edited June 21, 2015 by Riasiru

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Roflcopter going away? Welp, guess we're all gonna be running Loki/Volt now. Infinite stamina is great and all, but it won't matter if we can't catch the fast frames that kill everything before we even get in the room.

 

Or maybe you could just use the far more fun and fluid non-melee based mobility options that parkour 2.0 will give you.

[KuroShiranui]

Wall running is terrible.  Taking away coptering isn't going to make it better.

 

Well they do rework wall running right now. So let's save that for another topic.

 

I guess Repligon has a point there. Coptering does hinder the majority of the movement system. DE's trying to alleviate that with Parkour 2.0, albeit with more skills (and button presses I guess). Is more skill good or not? That's subjective, but imo that's better especially in pvp.

Also, I don't see DE saying that they're removing coptering. Slide attack is still functional, only that using it for mobility is ill advised. Maybe they're trying to make it an addition to mobility, something that is welcomed but isn't entirely needed.

But eh, i'm talking blanks now. Just wait until Parkour 2.0 comes out and we'll see.

[Kalenath]

I think you should try to mod a mele weapon for damage, Instead of coptering before you make asinine conclusions like that.

 

But coptering is the only thing to DO with melee. EVERYONE knows that. Well, except for 90% of the people I play with, but hey! EVERYONE!

 

And... I don't remember them saying that coptering was going to go. Change a bit so it was not a bug anymore? Yes. Go? No.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Kalenath

[Riasiru]

I run dual ichor with a berserk crit build... Yeah, it'll put out amazing damage if I line up the stars, but let's all be honest... We're not running Ichor or the original Dual Zoren for the damage. I will say, roflcoptering actually is one of the few legitimate ways of quickly and safely closing distance on enemies if you wanted to use melee on them. Low stamina costs, quick to perform, and it gets you in the enemy's face in an instant. 

 

Though, to be fair, Parkour 2.0 must be flipping amazing if it's gonna replace the copter. If it falls short DE is probably gonna get so much flak over it that the Kohm is gonna seem underwhelming in its flak potential... And it's a bloody full auto-flak cannon!

 

And... I don't remember them saying that coptering was going to go. Change a bit so it was not a bug anymore? Yes. Go? No.

 

Here's hoping. 

Edited June 21, 2015 by Riasiru

[VentiGlondi]

I run dual ichor with a berserk crit build... Yeah, it'll put out amazing damage if I line up the stars, but let's all be honest... We're not running Ichor or the original Dual Zoren for the damage. I will say, roflcoptering actually is one of the few legitimate ways of quickly and safely closing distance on enemies if you wanted to use melee on them. Low stamina costs, quick to perform, and it gets you in the enemy's face in an instant. 

 

Though, to be fair, Parkour 2.0 must be flipping amazing if it's gonna replace the copter. If it falls short DE is probably gonna get so much flak over it that the Kohm is gonna seem underwhelming in its flak potential... And it's a bloody full auto-flak cannon!

 

 

 

Here's hoping. 

Coptering doesn't close gaps between you and the enemy.

It gets you behind the enemy and into the wall.

[[DE]Momaw]

Or maybe you could just use the far more fun and fluid non-melee based mobility options that parkour 2.0 will give you.

 

Players are going to use what is efficient and practical.  If parkour 2.0 cannot get you to your destination at least as fast as a Rush Loki running on foot, then it's not practical, and if it can't do it without requiring ten different key presses and millisecond-accurate timing, then it's not efficient.  Coptering works because it's both.

 

 

If exploit came out of bug it doesn't mean it always have to be embraced. Look a bunny hopping which is way more similar to coptering. How many modern games embraced it?

 

 

I really wish everybody would get off their high horse about coptering being an exploit. It took DE all of two weeks to fix Viver and the syndicate reputation system. If they actually thought coptering was game breaking, they would have taken it out some time in the 2.5 years that they've known about it.  A better question for you to ask is: How many games have bunny hopping and then took it out after the player community embraced it?

 

 

Coptering doesn't close gaps between you and the enemy.

It gets you behind the enemy and into the wall.

 

So don't copter quite so hard. You know you have control over distance based on your approach speed and how long you hold the keys, right? Or do a ground slam to drop down. Or throw in an air melee to change direction. Or take off the Zerker mod, since that's generally the culprit when you get launched across the universe. Or... don't copter if the enemy is close to you. Do a slide attack instead; faster than walking, but without the airborne sustain that gives long range mobility.

 

Ironic that people would complain about coptering being too easy, but then also complain about it being uncontrollable....

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

Momaw, how long was the Halo Sword lunge in the game before they "removed/limited" it?

Its(coptering), is aproximately the same as the sword lunge. 

 

Also, dont a lot of games require you to hit buttons at precise intervals to get you past certain areas?

 

Limits ARE needed for coptering, regardless of feelings being hurt over, "I cant fly, or get gud".

 

If I want to fly, I use Zephyr(dont have lol) or play Archwing. When I want to slice and dice, I use a sword......