Can We Talk About Ember? Because I've Got A Bone To Pick With De Over Her Kit.

[arche]

*Used ember to solo manic tactical alert. All of it*

Why does she need a rework?

[Gr3vi3R]

I agree with you. I main Ember, and I think she fine the way she is.

 

Worst Frame in the game.

"Fine the way she is"

 

And that's why DE will never listen to their own players.

[Hypernaut1]

Worst Frame in the game.

"Fine the way she is"

 

And that's why DE will never listen to their own players.

Not EVERY frame needs to be easy mode you know? Some of us are glad that there are frames that reward skill and dont simply trivialize all challenges with the press of a button.

This idea of her being the "worst" because she can't solo t4 wave 60 by disarming all threats or slow enemies while making them take double damage and then turning into anti-matter bombs is ridiculous.

[MDRLOz]

This is your FEEDBACK about a particular  warframe's stats and abilities. 

 

This should be in the FEEDBACK section. 

 

We have lots of them found here:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/forum/193-feedback-categories/

 

Please make sure you use the correct areas of the forum. 

 

However I do agree with you. However looking forward after the quality of the Excalibur update maybe we can see a sweet ember update in the future. 

[piedol]

This is your FEEDBACK about a particular  warframe's stats and abilities. 

 

This should be in the FEEDBACK section. 

 

Sorry. My main goal here wasn't to give feedback to DE, but to spark a discussion through that feedback. I just felt this forum would have been more appropriate for doing that. I'll use the proper threads in future.

 

That aside, it's pretty clear so far that the people saying that "Ember is fine" are in a minority. So far most defenses have pointed out that her Accelerant ability can help stave off her damage fall-off. But consider the fact that her skills are given average base damages to compensate. It's essentially a skill-gate, where people that don't use it right in combination with her other abilities do sub-par damage, and those that do can do... as much damage as the average Warframe (against certain targets that are weak to fire). Yeah, the argument could be made that she's not as faceroll as some of the more popular frames, and I agree. But considering her long casting times and the mechanical involvement required to keep that damage simply "on par", it just doesn't justify the effort involved in comparison to everyone else.

 

She's not useless, but there's also no reason to pick her other than to role play as a fire caster.

Edited June 20, 2015 by piedol

[Judgebanks]

Remember when Overheat was deemed too op for being 95% damage reduction and  DE removed it, then added it back under different names to a bunch of other frames?

 

Overheat > Fireblast.

[izzatuw]

Not EVERY frame needs to be easy mode you know? Some of us are glad that there are frames that reward skill and dont simply trivialize all challenges with the press of a button.

This idea of her being the "worst" because she can't solo t4 wave 60 by disarming all threats or slow enemies while making them take double damage and then turning into anti-matter bombs is ridiculous.

You're trying to justify Ember's "usefullness" with "skill"?

[Andaius]

I pretty much Main Ember too, She works pretty well for me. A bit of a glass cannon but if your good at moving and smart with accellerant you can clear big groups of enemies with good use of Fireblast quickly. The ring may have a small radius but the wave can go pretty far. I'm using a power over duration build right now and an 8 second WoF seems to work pretty good for a quick burst of area damage.

 

I also use Ignis with her, and can get pretty amazing damage ticks with it, on yellow criticals. I've had damage up to 6K tick off of acelerant stunned enemies. Without having maxed out power on her too (I think I only have like 470% damage buff on accelerent and heard you can get like a max of 520% or so.)

[piedol]

You're trying to justify Ember's "usefullness" with "skill"?

That's exactly it. There's a difference between rewarding skilled use of abilities (ie, Limbo's kit in the right hands, or use of radiation proc from Ether Blade to disable an Infested Ancient), and requiring "skill" to be decent in the first place.

[DameDameNingen]

I think ember is mostly pretty well designed and her problems are more to do with borked enemy scaling than her kit being subpar in itself.

 

That said, fireblast is an odd, self-defeating skill and accelerant should have replaced that rather than molten body. WoF is limited by three different effects (drain/sec, max duration, blocks energy regain) when any two of them would have been sufficient. So she could do with some tweaks and tuning.

[Hypernaut1]

That's exactly it. There's a difference between rewarding skilled use of abilities (ie, Limbo's kit in the right hands, or use of radiation proc from Ether Blade to disable an Infested Ancient), and requiring "skill" to be decent in the first place.

Decent? i can be a top performer in many missions with Ember. That includes teamplay too.

 

Seriously, who here mains Ember and think she's terrible? I think most people are just regurgitating what they hear on the forums. Show me an example where Ember is only "decent"? She does A LOT of damage far into most missions. She has CC. What exactly makers her terrible? Yes, shes a bit squishy, but i still think she has better survivability than a lot of frames. I revive Volts way more often than Ember players.

 

And your comparison doesnt make any sense. How does Ember not reward skilled use of abilities? What does that even mean?

Edited June 20, 2015 by Hypernaut1

[Ryjeon]

Survivability on Ember is tied to 3 things: Crowd Control, Movement-mastery, and Quickly Neutralizing Priority Targets.

CROWD CONTROL

Build for high efficiency so that when the time comes you can use Accelerant freely.  Run Stretch so it covers a wide range. Accelerant's strength is in its responsiveness and coverage. It casts quickly and is freely recastable allowing you to continually lock enemies in the vicinity.

At around 60% bonus power strength World on Fire will set enemies around you ablaze most of the time. It prioritizes enemies who are not CCed creating a protective area around you.  All 4 of Ember's abilities have a strong cc component to them without augments. Accelerant is Ember's supreme perma-cc (I used max range Accelerant to get my Rift Sigil), but the other abilities also have their cc uses. A high status weapon will add a lot to Ember's crowd control as well.

MOVEMENT MASTERY

Copter. Aerial Melee. Wall-Vault. Slide-Flip. Dodge-roll. Aerial-Slide Casting on stunned enemies heads. Warframe has very powerful movement effects.  Use of these tools will allow you to get from cover to cover or leap into a group of enemies while casting Accelerant before they have a moment to register you.  Mobility also extends the effect of World on Fire.  If you prefer to play always stationary marksman other frames are better suited. But Ember shines in conjunction with a highly active and mobile playstyle.

PRIORITY NEUTRALIZATION - SITUATIONAL AWARENESS

Nullifiers. Heavies. Ancients. Parasitic. Heat Eximus. Most of these will be pinned down and unable to attack if they are within range of Ember's abilities. So you should be able to freely focus them down with a weapon. But many of them have effects that dampen the effectiveness of Ember's damage output.  

Nullifiers - Take em out at distance with a non-heat gun utilizing cover if you can. Slash/Rad Braton Prime is my gun of choice.  Atomos can often take them out quickly too via its chaining.  Be warned that Heat and Corrosive damage will be unable to damage the proto shields of Eximus Nullifiers (shield of the eximus, they'll still reduce the bubble normally).

Ancient Healers & Disruptors - Both of them will reduce the damage Ember does to enemies around them. If you don't have an ally disabling the auras with Radiation procs you need to do it yourself.  Radiation damage will do next to no damage on them but your abilities and allies weapons should be plenty to bring them down.  You could also individually target them with a high damage weapon but I find status procs to be more instantly effective when enemy density rises.

Heat Eximus - These enemies are often immune to heat damage and seem to share heat resistance with their allies. I haven't figured them out entirely. But I've taken to carrying one non-heat and often high status weapon so I can take them out quickly without worrying about their resistance. Though they may resist the heat damage they'll still be subject to the heat cc so World on Fire will still lock them up.

SINCE THE REWORK

I've been maining Ember since before the rework and I can say for certain that she has massively improved since. Before the rework Accelerant was the only ability I made frequent use of as a CC and weapon damage boost. World on Fire and Fire Blast casted too slowly to weave into my combat, and World on Fire's targeting was too slow to really value as a damage supplement. The rework increased her cast speeds, added an extra 5 target tic to the WoF cast, added a high burn status chance that increases with power strength which multiplied the damage of every hit, and gave it smart targeting to prioritize targets that weren't crowd-controlled.

The introduction of new relevant primed mods also increased her build possibilities. I've played with a lot of builds since that time and have plenty of fun and success going to high levels in all of the content, nearly always having the least damage taken and something like 50% damage done. There are some usability issues and she does require extra effort compared to a lot of other frames. She's not perfect but Ember is not a weak frame by any means.  The potential is there in her crowd control, mutltiplicative power strength scaling, and weapon-ability synergy.  I find it every day.

http://i.imgur.com/qvp5HMx.png

Edited June 20, 2015 by Ryjeon

[Eminem2420]

She is not the worst frame in the game. If you can't use her right, then that is your problem.

[Dogefighter]

-gigasnip-

Dear sir, as an ember main, i am forced to disagree with you.  I can take ember prime to T4 and absolutely destroy with her.  With a good build, her abilities can kill for quite a while.  And when they stop killing, she doesn't just stop being useful, she turns into an entirely different kind of CC.  She goes from straight up murder to mass stunning with...all of her abilities, really.  If it can set people on fire, it can stun, and 4 with the augment is fantastic for stunlocking groups of enemies.  

 

As to your complaint about her survivability, well, i think you're rather missing the point.  I play her either:  Defending an area while roasting incoming enemies, or running around, avoiding damage by constantly moving.  You don't even really have to move far, just enough to mess with their aim.  You'll notice that along with the armor buff came a speed buff as well so you can be even more mobile.

 

But i digress.  I'll admit that she isn't useful everywhere, but let's be honest here.  Each warframe is unique and plays best in certain situations, so it would be a bit self-defeating towards the entire concepts of varied and unique warframes to have a universally useful frame.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Dogefighter

[Epicagemo]

I don't see the premise to this argument, or the reason why she's weak. I haven't seen a single mention in your post about the damage buff from Accelerant, which is major to pulling her frame together. However, it's the only one pulling all her abilities together.

 

"Because of her ult's excessive number of power gates, her entire kit suffers when she tries to build around it,"

sound like a build issue, and not a warframe issue itself.

 

Have you not seen the thing where everything around her turns to fire and can't shoot when you use world on fire? Turn around a corner? Boom. Everything's on fire. As for Firequake, I feel like the player is supposed to use finishers on the enemies for immortal frames, hence changing the playstyle... :P

 

I don't mind any buffs towards ember, but you haven't shown me a issue that I've encountered with her to be a real issue.

[Dragon_AV]

World on Fire:

                  -Half the casting time

                  -Remove the timer

 

Her 3rd skill:

                  -Change ring into field of fire

 

Done!

Edited June 21, 2015 by Dragon_AV

[----Fenrir----]

Ember is good at running low level (level 20 max) Extermination missions and at dealing with up to mid tier infested. On low level Extermination missions you can basically just keep world on fire running and simply run through the level killing everyhting without even having to waste a single bullet. In non-void missions you likely need to spam an energy recover or two but in the Void there are usually enough of those balls around for Ember Prime to get enough energy to just spam WOF.

 

It's against high level ranged enemies that things start to look rather bleak for Ember. She has no damage negating abilities and the range of her abilities -- which she can't even max out since their effectiveness depends on so many different things -- is not great. Once you go past 30 minutes in T3/4 Survival all Ember is still good at is dying.

 

It's true that accelerant can buff damage of other weapons, yet again it's range is not soo great and so do for example Volts shields which not just add a damage bonus that seems to be endlessly stackable (just spam more shields) but also create an indestructable barrier protecting Volt against those nasty high level ranged enemies. Those shields also provide a 2x critical damage bonus multiplier which sadly does not stack when casting more shields.

 

To be viable against higher level enemies Ember would either need some kind of shielding/damage negating ability or at least more range on her existing abilities.

Edited June 21, 2015 by ----Fenrir----

[Hueminator]

World on Fire:

                  -Half the casting time

                  -Remove the timer

 

Her 3rd skill:

                  -Change ring into field of fire

 

Done!

The field of fire better scale with stretch too, but then again it is a oberon gimmick.

[EinheriarJudith]

World on Fire:

                  -Half the casting time

                  -Remove the timer

 

Her 3rd skill:

                  -Change ring into field of fire

 

Done!

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. i love frames that make full use of all 4 abilities ive not run into any issues with ember even in high lvl her CC is op. In a team a person should not  be out to do all the work like a solo player work with your team thats what they are there for. Also what i people dont realize is the worst enemies in high Tier are grineer units in Void/Grineer Planets and they all hate heat damage.

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

Although Ember got a rework,I still don't think she is that good enough.Im not ready to add 4 corrupted mods and forma for my ember that much.Plz De,Give ember a rework.I want To use the frames I have but some of them just have worthless abilities...

[EinheriarJudith]

Although Ember got a rework,I still don't think she is that good enough.Im not ready to add 4 corrupted mods and forma for my ember that much.Plz De,Give ember a rework.I want To use the frames I have but some of them just have worthless abilities...

 

First get ember prime she comes with 3 polarity at the gate. 4 corrupted mods LMAO wait what? Do you even play ember? I do and shes fricken amazing.

 

[Racter]

You're right, Ember is totally amazing! That's why you see people asking for her all the time for all content. Or even, any content. At all.

 

Oh wait. That's right. No one wants her for anything. Her only niche is infested and even then literally almost every other frame is a better choice atm. That balanced build you posted really can't even handle T4E effectively let alone endless missions/raids. While I agree that something like the build you posted is currently your best option for building her really (at least atm), it's still not good.

 

I have tried to see her as an effective frame. Made a build specifically for power strength (Accelerant), brought the buff augment and even had my teammates bring heavy fire damage guns. It was still less effective in practice than literally any other buff frame, not to mention because you need s/d/r/e on Accelerant you couldn't really have it work properly. Even in a camp setup (everyone guaranteed to be in range, no survivability concerns, etc), with a team optimized specifically around her damage boost, literally best case scenario, it was mediocre at best.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Racter0325

[EinheriarJudith]

You're right, Ember is totally amazing! That's why you see people asking for her all the time for all content. Or even, any content. At all.

 

Oh wait. That's right. No one wants her for anything. Her only niche is infested and even then literally almost every other frame is a better choice atm. That balanced build you posted really can't even handle T4E effectively let alone endless missions/raids. While I agree that something like the build you posted is currently your best option for building her really (at least atm), it's still not good.

 

I have tried to see her as an effective frame. Made a build specifically for power strength (Accelerant), brought the buff augment and even had my teammates bring heavy fire damage guns. It was still less effective in practice than literally any other buff frame, not to mention because you need s/d/r/e on Accelerant you couldn't really have it work properly. Even in a camp setup (everyone guaranteed to be in range, no survivability concerns, etc), with a team optimized specifically around her damage boost, it was mediocre at best.

 

LMAO i solo T4E with it Also laziness will always find the path of least resistance if people cant 1 hit ability kill it they deem it unfit GG but there isnt anything wrong with ember outside maybe a minor change to her 3

 

P.S. unless you are like many bad mesa no one just walk around only using warframe abilities you have a primary secondary and melee.

Edited June 21, 2015 by EinheriarJudith

[Hypernaut1]

You're right, Ember is totally amazing! That's why you see people asking for her all the time for all content. Or even, any content. At all.

 

Oh wait. That's right. No one wants her for anything. Her only niche is infested and even then literally almost every other frame is a better choice atm. That balanced build you posted really can't even handle T4E effectively let alone endless missions/raids. While I agree that something like the build you posted is currently your best option for building her really (at least atm), it's still not good.

 

I have tried to see her as an effective frame. Made a build specifically for power strength (Accelerant), brought the buff augment and even had my teammates bring heavy fire damage guns. It was still less effective in practice than literally any other buff frame, not to mention because you need s/d/r/e on Accelerant you couldn't really have it work properly. Even in a camp setup (everyone guaranteed to be in range, no survivability concerns, etc), with a team optimized specifically around her damage boost, literally best case scenario, it was mediocre at best.

Ember not being a camp frame = useless is a terrible argument.

[Racter]

Ember not being a camp frame = useless is a terrible argument.

 

You misread my point. I was saying that in a comp specifically set up for her to buff everyone (both directly with the augment and indirectly with Accelerant), in a place that allowed us to hit all enemies with Accelerant, playing against mobs with no armor (CP), with a team all using heat damage on their weapons, she was still mediocre at best. In terms of direct damage, even with max power strength + Accelerant, her abilities fell off no later than ~45m (which may be considered fine by DE, I'm not sure, but most if not all other kill frames can go longer).