Does Anyone Else Wish Nullifiers Functioned Differently?

[Racter]

I'm not against having enemies that are immune to abilities, and I want to make that clear from the beginning of this so this post isn't misunderstood completely.

 

Having said that, I think Nullifiers are a very poor implementation of this. The manic is much more enjoyable to fight, at least in my opinion. The way their bubble works makes low rof weapons crappy against them (bows, snipers, single shot anything, launchers, etc), restricting "safe" choices, as well as making large hordes of enemies immune to powers, many of which are the entire survivability mechanic of certain frames. They also spawn in massive amounts. This didn't bother me as much until recently, when I was testing the Excalibur rework and was often finding myself going down because of the draw/holster animation when his ult ends. Now, his waves go through the bubble and can damage it normally at least, which is a vast improvement but I suspect it's a bug.

 

The combination of these things left a sour taste in my mouth, and I started wondering what they could do to make them still effective at what they are supposed to do, and not be as frustrating to play against. If I remember correctly, Zanuka was mentioned to be a project, and not just the one unit. What if, instead of what are basically Corpus eximus units with a more annoying bubble, we had Zanuka-type hunter-killer droids? Still completely immune to powers, but actively hunting you occasionally throughout the mission, capable of parkour so you can't just climb a box and shoot it, capable of teleporting to you/you to it like the current one. Instead of being ~10% of the enemies spawned, you would only get 1 (or a pack of 3-4?) every 5ish minutes, coming directly to kill you.

 

I may be alone in this, but I feel like this would be a more enjoyable version of a Corpus "anti-Tenno" unit, on top of actually being more of a threat than an annoyance like the current Nullifiers are and being more in line with what they seem to want in terms of powerful, ability immune enemies (Stalker, current Zanuka, Manic, Juggernaut). Thoughts?

Edited June 21, 2015 by Racter0325

[AgentSkye]

Does anyone else wish Nullifiers functioned differently?

 

Only everyone.

[(PSN)gino1313]

Most people agree that their bubbles should only block powers, not bullets and that they should charge at players with large hordes of enemies.

[AlphaHorseman]

The Nullifiers, in their current iteration, don't offer much in terms of player choice in weapons, let alone flat out block all powers. I'm not as offended that they block powers, but more so weapon choice, as you've stated.

 

Something like this could help out greatly:

 

Corpus Nullifiers:

The idea behind the Nullifiers was a very interesting one, and one that could seriously alter the dynamic of the game, but as it stands, the Nullifiers act more so to limit player weapon choice, rather than hard-stop our powers solely. As such, my feedback for the Nullifiers is that they need a bit of a rework, to help them actually do their job equally of stopping our powers, but not limiting player play style, both with powers and with weapons.

 

Firstly, let's rename the Corpus Nullifiers Corpus Guardians. The mechanics of the Guardian unit is that it deploys a stationary 180 degree shield arc that protects all units behind it from CC/Utility effects and damage that is incoming from the direction it is facing. Think of it as a larger version of Alad V's thrown down shield during his Mutalist Boss Fight. Removing the limit on the amount of damage able to be done to the shield, but also upping its base HP, gives it a strong resistance to our powers, but does not limit our weapon variety. Additionally, any Corpus weaponry fired out of the shield receives a small damage bonus. (Tenno may also utilize this boost, should they be carrying Corpus weaponry).

 

Thus, the Guardian acts as protection for the Corpus against our powers, but does not hinder our weapon choice.

 

Players can now either tough it out in front of the shield against the enemy squads and fire upon it/use their powers until it falls. Or they can use their abilities and/or parkour skills to vault over/around the shield to kill the units taking cover behind it. The Guardian is now a unit that is useful and interesting to fight, but does not outright remove self-cast powers like Iron Skin or Hysteria, as the shield protects the occupants from outside interference/damage, but it does not remove them.

 

Scaling for the reworked Nullifier are as follows:

 

Levels 1-10 gives units behind it immunity to CC/Utility and damage incoming from the direction the shield is facing.

 

Levels 11-20 gives a higher increase to damage for Corpus weaponry fired outwards from the shield.

 

Levels 21-30 gives the Guardian the ability to remove procs from units entering into, or already within, its defensive radius.

 

Levels 31-40 allows the Guardian's shield to deflect incoming fire/powers in a random direction dictated by RNG.

 

Levels 41-50+ allows the Guardian to absorb a portion of incoming damage and converts it into health (max 10% of incoming damage).

 

The reworked Nullifier now becomes a potent tool to stopping our powers, but not so limiting as to how to deal with the threat. In addition, it functions as a useful tool for any who can surmise how to use it once it is deployed.

 

It becomes an improved unit that completes its function on the battlefield, but it does not take away from player choice. Not to mention they're far more interesting to fight now, and are a great tool to use on the battlefield if players work out how to deal with them (more so their compatriots) in certain ways.

Edited June 21, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[SullyTheStalker]

An idea I have is that "nullifiers" should be a type of robotic unit, similar to the Zanuka in appearance but behaving differently.  Instead of having a big blue bubble that practically screams "HERE I AM!", they would have an invisible aura much like some of the current eximus units.  This aura could extend out to ~15 m or so, and any units inside the aura will receive a power immunity buff that works like the current bubble, but without the bullet blocking mechanic.

 

The only way to stop these nullifiers units is to kill them; however, they can use Zanuka's parkour abilities to cling to walls and hide where it's difficult to find them.  In comparison, the chime maiden from Bloodborne comes to mind; it hides in a corner of the map and buffs nearby units, rather than being this in-your-face force that sends a tidal wave of SNAFU at your whole team.  Also, there would be no more bubble-sharing to make them even more annoying.

 

Think of it as a Corpus version of the Grineer Regulator.

Edited June 21, 2015 by SullyTheStalker

[TheBrsrkr]

My idea for them is to keep the shrinking and damage cap idea, but instead of negating damage, have it only negate Punch Through. That way it's not a huge threat by itself, still protects large groups of enemies, and doesn't gimp everything that's not automatic.

[_-Darky-_]

I want them out of the game they are so annoying -_-

[(PSN)gino1313]

An idea I have is that "nullifiers" should be a type of robotic unit, similar to the Zanuka in appearance but behaving differently.  Instead of having a big blue bubble that practically screams "HERE I AM!"...

 

They could also make it just accept bullets through then make it half of a superellipse that goes in a circle. What is a superellipse you ask? I'm glad you did.

That is a superellipse, and they are really cool. Warframe needs to use them more, because just circles and squares get tedious.

[(PSN)D-onlinekilla-4D]

I know, lets remove the only enemy in T4, that requires you to think about your loadout, your rate of fire on your weapon, your team synergy.

 

I'm not flaming, just saying, before all the bow/sniper & low ROF weapon users, start piling in with "Plz Nerf so I can one shot everything in the game"

[(PSN)gino1313]

I know, lets remove the only enemy in T4, that requires you to think about your loadout, your rate of fire on your weapon, your team synergy.

 

I'm not flaming, just saying, before all the bow/sniper & low ROF weapon users, start piling in with "Plz Nerf so I can one shot everything in the game"

The only problem with that is rate of fire. It remove the validity of anything with an under 2.5/s RoF. The idea of the nullifier was to make more build diversity, but it caused more problems than intended.

[(PSN)D-onlinekilla-4D]

The only problem with that is rate of fire. It remove the validity of anything with an under 2.5/s RoF. The idea of the nullifier was to make more build diversity, but it caused more problems than intended.

I agree with removing the validity of low ROF weapons, but it is designed to do this! to negate damage, with an energy field that regenerates if not struck multiple times, within a given time margin.

 

The last time I commented on a topic very similar to this, half of the posters in favor of "DE plz nerf so I can one shot" or camp in a tunnel, 

was not even aware of the mechanics :O

 

The Mechanics for any posters who are not sure.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Nullifier_Crewman

 

Nullify = make of no use or value; cancel out.

Edited June 21, 2015 by (PS4)D-onlinekilla-4D

[Racter]

An idea I have is that "nullifiers" should be a type of robotic unit, similar to the Zanuka in appearance but behaving differently.  Instead of having a big blue bubble that practically screams "HERE I AM!", they would have an invisible aura much like some of the current eximus units.  This aura could extend out to ~15 m or so, and any units inside the aura will receive a power immunity buff that works like the current bubble, but without the bullet blocking mechanic.

 

The only way to stop these nullifiers units is to kill them; however, they can use Zanuka's parkour abilities to cling to walls and hide where it's difficult to find them.  In comparison, the chime maiden from Bloodborne comes to mind; it hides in a corner of the map and buffs nearby units, rather than being this in-your-face force that sends a tidal wave of SNAFU at your whole team.  Also, there would be no more bubble-sharing to make them even more annoying.

 

Think of it as a Corpus version of the Grineer Regulator.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but that seems far worse than what we currently have. Now, instead of seeing the blue bubble and knowing full well you'll die if you go into it, there's an invisible aura that just gets you killed? On top of that, it hides from you? That sounds terrible. (I never played Bloodborne so I'm unfamiliar with the reference)

 

 

 

 

The Nullifiers, in their current iteration, don't offer much in terms of player choice in weapons, let alone flat out block all powers. I'm not as offended that they block powers, but more so weapon choice, as you've stated.

 

Something like this could help out greatly:

 

Corpus Nullifiers:

The idea behind the Nullifiers was a very interesting one, and one that could seriously alter the dynamic of the game, but as it stands, the Nullifiers act more so to limit player weapon choice, rather than hard-stop our powers solely. As such, my feedback for the Nullifiers is that they need a bit of a rework, to help them actually do their job equally of stopping our powers, but not limiting player play style, both with powers and with weapons.

 

Firstly, let's rename the Corpus Nullifiers Corpus Guardians. The mechanics of the Guardian unit is that it deploys a stationary 180 degree shield arc that protects all units behind it from CC/Utility effects and damage that is incoming from the direction it is facing. Think of it as a larger version of Alad V's thrown down shield during his Mutalist Boss Fight. Removing the limit on the amount of damage able to be done to the shield, but also upping its base HP, gives it a strong resistance to our powers, but does not limit our weapon variety. Additionally, any Corpus weaponry fired out of the shield receives a small damage bonus. (Tenno may also utilize this boost, should they be carrying Corpus weaponry).

 

Thus, the Guardian acts as protection for the Corpus against our powers, but does not hinder our weapon choice.

 

Players can now either tough it out in front of the shield against the enemy squads and fire upon it/use their powers until it falls. Or they can use their abilities and/or parkour skills to vault over/around the shield to kill the units taking cover behind it. The Guardian is now a unit that is useful and interesting to fight, but does not outright remove self-cast powers like Iron Skin or Hysteria, as the shield protects the occupants from outside interference/damage, but it does not remove them.

 

Scaling for the reworked Nullifier are as follows:

 

Levels 1-10 gives units behind it immunity to CC/Utility and damage incoming from the direction the shield is facing.

 

Levels 11-20 gives a higher increase to damage for Corpus weaponry fired outwards from the shield.

 

Levels 21-30 gives the Guardian the ability to remove procs from units entering into, or already within, its defensive radius.

 

Levels 31-40 allows the Guardian's shield to deflect incoming fire/powers in a random direction dictated by RNG.

 

Levels 41-50+ allows the Guardian to absorb a portion of incoming damage and converts it into health (max 10% of incoming damage).

 

The reworked Nullifier now becomes a potent tool to stopping our powers, but not so limiting as to how to deal with the threat. In addition, it functions as a useful tool for any who can surmise how to use it once it is deployed.

 

It becomes an improved unit that completes its function on the battlefield, but it does not take away from player choice. Not to mention they're far more interesting to fight now, and are a great tool to use on the battlefield if players work out how to deal with them (more so their compatriots) in certain ways.

 

 

This sounds interesting, and is a change I could get behind.

 

Previously when going for long runs, I would either bring an automatic rifle with a slow, strong secondary to switch to later when the rifle's efficiency became a problem, or I would bring my Dread with the same secondary. Seeing as both the Dread (all bows in general) and slow, strong secondaries are now rendered essentially useless against 2/4 factions, I don't use either of them very often any more. I doubt I'm the only one in this situation.

 

Again, I'm totally fine with them being hard to kill (the current iteration isn't even this, it's just annoying), and totally fine with them being immune to abilities. I just don't think they should simultaneously remove low rate of fire weapons from load outs, be immune to abilities, and remove active abilities, many of which are frames sole choice for survival.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Racter0325

[----Fenrir----]

I agree with removing the validity of low ROF weapons, but it is designed to do this! to negate damage, with an energy field that regenerates if not struck multiple times, within a given time margin.

 

It's not just low RoF weapons, those globes also count as "objects" so critical damage does not count making weapons that depend on criticals for their damage output highly ineffective. Worst of all are weapons that have a low rate of fire and depend on criticals for their damage (all bows for example).

 

And really what's the point in that? Or is limiting viable weapon choices a good thing? Do we really need more Boltor Primes (high RoF + not dependent on criticals)?

[(PSN)gino1313]

I agree with removing the validity of low ROF weapons, but it is designed to do this! to negate damage, with an energy field that regenerates if not struck multiple times, within a given time margin.

The last time I commented on a topic very similar to this, half of the posters in favor of "DE plz nerf so I can one shot" or camp in a tunnel,

was not even aware of the mechanics :O

The Mechanics for any posters who are not sure.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Nullifier_Crewman

Nullify = make of no use or value; cancel out.

Maybe as a compromise enemies inside the bubble will take damage from bullets, but the nullified will be immune. So you can stop the pesky bombard with your Paris prime vaykor marelok combo without reducing your ammo supply to 10 accumulative shots.

I really get what you are saying, but the point of bullies was to increase build diversity in frames but it eclipsed a whole section of weaponry. The proposition above should make everyone happy.

For lore it can be a mystery, it's good to have a technological disadvantage, it builds tension and suspense.

[(PSN)D-onlinekilla-4D]

It's not just low RoF weapons, those globes also count as "objects" so critical damage does not count making weapons that depend on criticals for their damage output highly ineffective. Worst of all are weapons that have a low rate of fire and depend on criticals for their damage (all bows for example).

 

And really what's the point in that? Or is limiting viable weapon choices a good thing? Do we really need more Boltor Primes (high RoF + not dependent on criticals)?

1.

The point is to have an enemy that cannot be merely one shotted or swept aside with a press 4, which I personally enjoy the challenge they present.

2.

Limiting viable weapon choice isn't a good thing, so I don't see why we should even go there.

3.

I thought the topic was about the Nullifiers mechanics and not Boltor prime?

 

Thats as much as I got on this Topic, as a very similar one was floating about not long ago.

Edited June 22, 2015 by (PS4)D-onlinekilla-4D

[Crewell]

Just run up and melee them. Nullifiers die quick to melee.

[jjpdn]

I've seen at least 10 threads about this.

 

But, either it seems it's to hard to make the shield react differently to different weapons, or they're just ignoring.

 

I think it's the former.

[Racter]

Just run up and melee them. Nullifiers die quick to melee.

 

Yes, but when you're in EB, you have a ~2s delay while you put your energy sword away. Or you'll lose your invisibility, or Link, or Iron Skin, or Rift Walk, or whatever the case may be. 100% of the time they're swarmed with other enemies and the instant you're available to be attacked you pretty much get rekt. It just seems unnecessary.

 

Their bubbles currently have a DTPS cap on top of being crit and punch thru immune. It would not be difficult to remove either one of those, nor does the current nullifier design match what they gave the other two factions in terms of strong, power immune enemies. It may be hard to hit a Manic with a bow, but you can, and you can kill it, same with Juggernauts. Neither of those two require you to give up your current buffs to do so. I don't understand why this one in particular must have these special conditions.

[CapedBaldy]

1.

The point is to have an enemy that cannot be merely one shotted or swept aside with a press 4, which I personally enjoy the challenge they present.

2.

Limiting viable weapon choice isn't a good thing, so I don't see why we should even go there.

3.

I thought the topic was about the Nullifiers mechanics and not Boltor prime?

 

Thats as much as I got on this Topic, as a very similar one was floating about not long ago.

The topic may be about Nullifier mechanics, but it affects weaponry. You cannot simply talk about the Nullifier mechanics and not talk about the weapons in the game. To talk about one and not talk about the other is foolish because it doesn't give the whole picture of what's going on. The thing is Nullifier mechanics are very limiting towards low RoF weapons, so we don't even need to go there, we are already there. If you can suggest a way that makes it so that it doesn't get one-shotted and does not limit low RoF weapons, which sounds like an uphill task to me, go ahead. I personally will be satisfied with being able to one-shot the shield with the current shrink rate and requiring another shot for the Nullifier and perhaps maybe some punch-through mechanics too.

[LightstealKnight]

Nullifiers would not be so annoying if they didn't cancel out buffs.  Volt gets slowed, Loki becomes visible, Excalibur's blade disappears, Rhino Skin gone, Valkyr.. just stay away valkyr..... etc...

 

If they didn't cancel buffs I would have no more nullifier issues.

[Acos]

Just run up and melee them. Nullifiers die quick to melee.

 

Guns work the same way. Dive in, plug the guy in the face, copter back out. 

The thing that mostly annoys me about Nullifiers is that they absolutely favor high rate of fire weapons in a game that already distinctly favored high rate of fire weapons. It would have been more interesting if the opposite was true, but at very least the time it takes to down a shield should be fairly equal across weapons. 

 

They also bother me on a sort of... Lore-Level. If the Corpus apparently have the technology to completely mute the super-human abilities of Tenno, why don't they, logically, use it everywhere? Why was something as mysterious and as alien as a Tenno able to have such a powerful counter-measure developed in like, a year? Doesn't exactly bode well for us. 

 

Other than that, Nullifiers are really only a problem at higher-than-normal levels of gameplay where they break up our otherwise completely overpowered crowd-control spam fest, which is exactly what they were intended to do. If you're playing the game at the levels its' designed to be beaten at, there are several different tactics you can utilize to take them down effectively, one of them being the very basic "just run in there and hit them with a stick" tactic. Sometimes the classics are the best. 

 

[(PSN)D-onlinekilla-4D]

The topic may be about Nullifier mechanics, but it affects weaponry. You cannot simply talk about the Nullifier mechanics and not talk about the weapons in the game. To talk about one and not talk about the other is foolish because it doesn't give the whole picture of what's going on. The thing is Nullifier mechanics are very limiting towards low RoF weapons, so we don't even need to go there, we are already there. If you can suggest a way that makes it so that it doesn't get one-shotted and does not limit low RoF weapons, which sounds like an uphill task to me, go ahead. I personally will be satisfied with being able to one-shot the shield with the current shrink rate and requiring another shot for the Nullifier and perhaps maybe some punch-through mechanics too.

Like I stated earlier this topic been covered numerous times, and is an uphill task, I agree, even more so when trying to please everyone.

 

I mean some people enjoy the mechanic as it presents some thought into load outs and such, when venturing into missions where they are likely to spawn.

You're Ideas also sound good for maybe punch thru mechanic of some form.

 

but I feel equipping an adequate rate of fire weapon, out of the possible primary or secondary selection, (there is a lot to choose from)

plus a decent melee weapon, is a lot better solution than to eliminate/nerf to death, one of the only real enemy that poses a threat in the game.

 

Plus I always thought Nullify meant, to negate, render useless? 

That's why they have a damage cap to the shield, because they are negating, high incoming damage/abilities. (one shotting/pressing4)

This may also be the reason why their buddies, the Bombards, are usually accompanying them inside the energy field.

 

Like you do when you play Frost AKA Nullifier, you throw up a globe to defend your buddy, Mesa AKA Bombard, your globe has enough health to take a few hits, unless you are at insane high levels.

 

You get where I'm coming from?

 

Smart AI if you ask me! but that's just my personal opinion.

Edited June 22, 2015 by (PS4)D-onlinekilla-4D

[AlphaHorseman]

Like I stated earlier this topic been covered numerous times, and is an uphill task, I agree, even more so when trying to please everyone.

 

I mean some people enjoy the mechanic as it presents some thought into load outs and such, when venturing into missions where they are likely to spawn.

You're Ideas also sound good for maybe punch thru mechanic of some form.

 

but I feel equipping an adequate rate of fire weapon, out of the possible primary or secondary selection, (there is a lot to choose from)

plus a decent melee weapon, is a lot better solution than to eliminate/nerf to death, one of the only real enemy that poses a threat in the game.

 

Plus I always thought Nullify meant, to negate, render useless? 

That's why they have a damage cap to the shield, because they are negating, high incoming damage/abilities. (one shotting/pressing4)

This may also be the reason why their buddies, the Bombards, are usually accompanying them inside the energy field.

 

Like you do when you play Frost AKA Nullifier, you throw up a globe to defend your buddy, Mesa AKA Bombard, your globe has enough health to take a few hits, unless you are at insane high levels.

 

You get where I'm coming from?

 

Smart AI if you ask me! but that's just my personal opinion.

The only problem is that they discriminate against weapon choice and variety, and not in the good way. A high Crit build Paris Prime only just keeps pace with a Boltor Prime in terms of DPS, and the Nullifiers outright negate one weapon style, while the other can still "one shot" enemies or TTK at a higher rate even in higher level content. At the very least, at least a Paris Prime requires a player to sacrifice fire rate for one good shot, and also requires the player to aim well to make that shot count. High RoF weaponry doesn't usually have that detriment, if built for high damage, all you have to do is point and shoot and voila, no more enemies.

 

If the shield was reworked to actually allow for Crit hits, or reworked entirely like so:

 

Corpus Nullifiers:

The idea behind the Nullifiers was a very interesting one, and one that could seriously alter the dynamic of the game, but as it stands, the Nullifiers act more so to limit player weapon choice, rather than hard-stop our powers solely. As such, my feedback for the Nullifiers is that they need a bit of a rework, to help them actually do their job equally of stopping our powers, but not limiting player play style, both with powers and with weapons.

 

Firstly, let's rename the Corpus Nullifiers Corpus Guardians. The mechanics of the Guardian unit is that it deploys a stationary 180 degree shield arc that protects all units behind it from CC/Utility effects and damage that is incoming from the direction it is facing. Think of it as a larger version of Alad V's thrown down shield during his Mutalist Boss Fight. Removing the limit on the amount of damage able to be done to the shield, but also upping its base HP, gives it a strong resistance to our powers, but does not limit our weapon variety. Additionally, any Corpus weaponry fired out of the shield receives a small damage bonus. (Tenno may also utilize this boost, should they be carrying Corpus weaponry).

 

Thus, the Guardian acts as protection for the Corpus against our powers, but does not hinder our weapon choice.

 

Players can now either tough it out in front of the shield against the enemy squads and fire upon it/use their powers until it falls. Or they can use their abilities and/or parkour skills to vault over/around the shield to kill the units taking cover behind it. The Guardian is now a unit that is useful and interesting to fight, but does not outright remove self-cast powers like Iron Skin or Hysteria, as the shield protects the occupants from outside interference/damage, but it does not remove them.

 

Scaling for the reworked Nullifier are as follows:

 

Levels 1-10 gives units behind it immunity to CC/Utility and damage incoming from the direction the shield is facing.

 

Levels 11-20 gives a higher increase to damage for Corpus weaponry fired outwards from the shield.

 

Levels 21-30 gives the Guardian the ability to remove procs from units entering into, or already within, its defensive radius.

 

Levels 31-40 allows the Guardian's shield to deflect incoming fire/powers in a random direction dictated by RNG.

 

Levels 41-50+ allows the Guardian to absorb a portion of incoming damage and converts it into health (max 10% of incoming damage).

 

The reworked Nullifier now becomes a potent tool to stopping our powers, but not so limiting as to how to deal with the threat. In addition, it functions as a useful tool for any who can surmise how to use it once it is deployed.

 

We could then see how all weapon types are viable against them, they still present a threat on the battlefield, and are now also an interesting tool to use/encounter. Not to mention that DPS for all weapons isn't the sole issue here, it's the TTK as well that's important, and the Nullifiers in their current iteration discriminate against that.

[GrimwarAlpha1]

Nullifiers stopped being an issue to me recently when I started carrying the Angstrum into the void as my secondary. One volley detonating onto their bubble does enough AoE to insta-kill the nullifier inside it. Kinda Ironic that a slow fire rate, high damage weapon turned out to be the best way to one shot them.

[DoomFruit]

Nullifiers would not be so annoying if they didn't cancel out buffs.  Volt gets slowed, Loki becomes visible, Excalibur's blade disappears, Rhino Skin gone, Valkyr.. just stay away valkyr..... etc...

If they didn't cancel buffs I would have no more nullifier issues.

I'm fine with nullifying buffs - they are, after all, explicitly designed to cancel out Tenno space magic. What I'm not fine with is the fact that it also nullifies hot lead, coherent light, plasma bolts and throwing stars.