R3DBelmont456 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Alright, so I just recently played against a player in team annihilation who literally did nothing but scrubgakke spam the entire match, I can normally deal with spammers like this, but lo and behold something I never encountered before... By combining the already cheap martial magnetism and explosive demise with the kogake and using Volt's Speed ability to boot, this guy was capable of single handedly wiping out 3/4s of my team in less than 5 seconds by spamming the usual Wombo Combo of cheese Knockdown to E spam, spin to win and repeat... only at ludicrous speed~!!! It's bad enough that this cheesy melee meta running rampant in Conclave makes weapons like the tonfas and kogake out DPS pretty much every weapon without resorting to hit n run tactics... but with almost triple DPS it becomes beyond broken and cheese to win, every single time I heard him cast it I literally coptered away as quickly as I could because one KD even with martial magnetism and I was down for the count with how much quicker it could kill... Seriously DE, the volt+kogake combo really needs a look see, the kogake is broken enough as it is, we don't need it to be any worse having nothing but volts spamming speed and just steamrolling everyone with hyperdrive punches... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalahssalyst Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Offtopic Question.What is melee spamm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishmashmarsh Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I'm fed-up of spam whatever to win topics, you gotta press something don't you? resides can you do anything in any game with out spamming something? I mean we spam the fire key all the time don't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elele Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 So he found a combo that caught people off guard. Not sure he can do much if you block with your melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cary2010haha1 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) So he found a combo that caught people off guard. Not sure he can do much if you block with your melee. https://warframe.com/news/numbers-conclave so sad i need to put this post here :P(not to you) Dam if thats so OP and effective, why it doesn't get more kill than so many different range weapon with higher rank req or need to grind to get? haha............Kogake+Volt both have 0 rank req/ Edited July 16, 2015 by cary2010haha1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorsContraction Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) My advice is, equip kokage on a volt and try it yourself. Generally I cannot gauge how effective a strategy is without trying it myself. You get to see what's involved in the execution of the combo, is it easy, is it hard. Maybe your teammates were new or your opponent was really good. Edited July 16, 2015 by TaylorsContraction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3DBelmont456 Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) Sorry I replied late... Got up recently, I've also tried, it is indeed easy... it is the most accessible, noob friendly and unbalanced tactic anyone could do. It is the equivalent of C4 Camping in CoD, it takes 0 skill to execute, it is a severe crutch for people who are incapable of playing on the level of good Conclave players, and getting kills that way makes no one happy because you feel like you were killed in the cheapest way possible, even if you've taken the proper measures to counteract this strategy with the bo or bo prime, handspring and sure footed... It's beyond broken and cheesy (and not even the good kind of Cheese either, we're talking rancid Limburger Cheese....), I've met 2 people so far that love trolling all modes with these cheap tactics and honestly even though they can pull this combo off, they rarely managed to get a kill on me using their guns, they would literally just stand there and fire as if that was gonna work...Also I saw that chart and as everyone said in your post mate, it's statistics showing the most used weapons, which will NOT take into consideration the few bad apples using exploitable and cheesy tactics to boost their OWN numbers in conclave...Anywho, my suggestion to properly balance the Scrubgakke Kogake is to:1)make it like the Vectis (unless it's a bug, lol) and not allow any mods such as martial magnetism and such to be equipped on it.2)Significantly reduce it's damage due to it's obscene DPS potential, it makes no sense for a light and fast weapon to out DPS a heavy weapon by 3 1/2 miles, and...3) Give some kind of Cooldown to the amount of times the knockdown is guaranteed to work, like the first time it's 100%, the second time it's 50% the 3rd 25% and so forth within a 4-6 second period, so the more you spam Knockdown within that time, the less likely it is to happen...I think this would perfectly balance it so it would no longer be a cheese weapon or a crutch weapon for easy carry or wins...And honestly, volt speed can make any of the current meta melee weps in conclave lethal as all hell... So my suggestion to balance that is:make it only increase your movement speed and not your melee speed, that's what Valkyr is for... but at least that leaves her vulnerable and DOESN'T increase her movement speed too, so give it some kind of punishment in conclave for abusing it... Edited July 16, 2015 by R3DBelmont456 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalahssalyst Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 About what you have say, dont talk about "skill" the only thing considered on "skill" are only gun play.Gram cant 2 shots, but vectis can because "skill" (i remember someone saying "its unfair that you cover a great amont of distance with the cephalon and a gram user two shots you").. LOLKogake+volt is not skill, but Valkyr with braton is right? Or aim in general? (Yeah, nice suggestion that increased only speed and not atack speed, it makes powerfull heavy melee)Melee are for unskilled people, but gun play is skilled... So skill, is what people think is it, or because is it?If think a little about the "skilled" argument, everyone say "melee is for noob friendly unbalanced people", but, gunplay? Why it is skilled and melee cant enter in the "skilled" argument? Because press E to win, but is not the same with press LMB to win? I cant enter, stay still Press E, and kill someone, like it can be done with guns, yes you can while moving too, but with melee you can, or no? Melee have alot of disadvantajes, you run out of stamina while blocking+run, you cant kill a target who is away from you with melee, is not the same with gun... You have to learn on how to move, when atack, when block, i have to reach the target, is not like gun, where i can kill someone from the other side of the map, so is not a press E to win, or spin to win... is it? Why? because he does spin where you are, close to you? but, is not like that how melee works? Its really that easy to play with melee, so all people can say it is for noobs? Or a "unbalanced thing" where DE removed Headshots multipler, and Spin damage bonus? If we say melee is for noobs, because its easy, its impossible to be a "skilled player" who use that melee? Is really a noob? Why is considered easy?When a Rhino (or whatever warframe) with Gram, need to reach a fast target, who is shooting he, with limited stamina because DE increased the Stamina blocking required, and rhino or other one, and with gram even more (change incoming with parkour 2.0) why is noob? cant be considered in the "skilled" argument?Or same thing with Kogake? Im not talking about RA or MM.So, if Volt use speed, and Kogake, with its a cheap tactic used for "noobs", cant be a strategy on combination with warframe skill and a melee weapon?Is not the same with valkyr? Who use skill to slow down the target and melee combination, or gun? If not, why? Knockdown, why it needs to be down, reduced, or cooldowned (nice word right?)... So, if a Gram, what is a Heavy weapon, people use his knockdown to prevent the player to scape, is for noobs? because he does everywhere everytime? but, is not that supposed on how that weapon have to work? because heavy melee, low atack speed, less dps? (no? im wrong?told my lotus, TOLD ME...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockscl Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) "skill" that word goes through every kind of intelligence, using it just for motor intelligence is one more of the superfluousness present in most discussions about balance, not only in warframe, DE has inherently implied this in their balance system: skill is not just aiming Edited July 16, 2015 by rockscl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalahssalyst Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 skill is not just aiming With all post about "E mashing spamm spin to win melee fans" complain... and all the "skill arguments", looks like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3DBelmont456 Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 If you guys tried using a sniper or hell even a bow, you'd realize just how hard it is to hit someone moving incredibly fast... it's as if you guys think using a gun automatically means you're gonna hit something, if you hold the fire button while shooting the floor you are obviously not gonna hit anything, you also fail to take into consideration that even the cheapest guns which are spray and pray still require skill because you need to continually land your shots which with some weapons require you to lead them... I'd love to see you attempt to get a kill with a rifle in a game like tribes for example if it's soo easy... Here's the biggest reason people hate melee... if you use a fast weapon all you need to do is equip martial magnetism, channel it and BOOM... you get a free aimbot that aims for you. It takes no skill because you don't even need to aim the melee weapon even without martial magnetism... all you have to do is get close and mash E as quick as you can, statistically he will probably die before he can react or he will run away... You can defend this play style all you want, but there's no denying that it is far too accessible with no penalty whatsoever to be left in it's current state... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-dicht.ThanksFrost- Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 that word goes through every kind of intelligence, using it just for motor intelligence is one more of the superfluousness present in most discussions about balance, not only in warframe, DE has inherently implied this in their balance system: skill is not just aiming Saying that the requirements for a shooters is other things other than "motor intelligence". How does that make any sense? The point of the shooter genre is to test the player's ability to shoot at another target and various circumstances. Thats literally the reason why we call games like warframe SHOOTERS. "Skill is not just aiming" @Rockscl I would absolutely LOVE to know your gaming background. Because I am absolutely perplexed, no let me rephrase that, utterly dumbfounded as to how you came up with that response. There is no way that anyone, both gamers young and old would not agree that the main skill factor is a shooter game is the ability to shoot. You are writing this as if, warframe, a shooter game does not exactly require "aim" you can survive doing other things. I just want to repeat that this is a shooter. Sure there are other skills that are needed, thats a given. But in the end its the "aim skill" that wins games and gets kills and gets objectives. You can have the best plan and map control in the world, if your teammates cant aim then they're going nowhere. This is honestly the logical tier of "The #Fallout4 crafting system is cool. Imagine how much cooler it could be if it wasn’t SO focused on building stuff to kill other stuff." Yea because you know fallout is a shooter/openworld game, it would be so dumb that we incorporated killing things am i rite guies? We should build warframe a shooter/rpg to jsut focus on the other things other than shooting. #我不明白 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cary2010haha1 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) With all post about "E mashing spamm spin to win melee fans" complain... and all the "skill arguments", looks like... But "E mashing spamm spin" won't let you win in 2.0, at least to me, it can't, never will success. don't forget heavy melee channeling 1 hit jump attack kill is always own the melee area , and it's not "E mashing spamm spin" Edited July 17, 2015 by cary2010haha1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3DBelmont456 Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 Melee in general needs revision in Conclave as I said before... it is far too easy to do good simply running or coptering to people and mashing 3 til they drop dead... and no real disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalahssalyst Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) The point of the shooter genre is to test the player's ability to shoot at another target and various circumstances. Thats literally the reason why we call games like warframe SHOOTERS. Warframe let you choose on a balanced way to do, a melee gameplay, and gunplay, but its still a shooter, or is not because it have a melee? If i choose to play a melee, is not a shooter game anymore? here is no way that anyone, both gamers young and old would not agree that the main skill factor is a shooter game is the ability to shoot. You are writing this as if, warframe, a shooter game does not exactly require "aim" you can survive doing other things. I just want to repeat that this is a shooter. So, the only thing "skilled" in warframe is shoot? because...? Yes, it requires aim, or not? why that question? Yes, you are right, warframe its a third person shooter, but that is not an excuse on not melee gameplay, right? So, because shoot its skill on warframe or all shooters, melee gameplay cant? Sure there are other skills that are needed, thats a given. But in the end its the "aim skill" that wins games and gets kills and gets objectives. You can have the best plan and map control in the world, if your teammates cant aim then they're going nowhere. How, and why its only "skill" at least in warframe aim, and no melee combat gameplay in a balanced way, how is it now. Talking on warframe, a third person shooter, where you can equip a melee, why it is not a "skilled" gameplay, based on your argument "objetives"... If my teammates dont want to aim, they can ever choose a melee gameplay, because warframe system let me, in a balanced way. So, why if the system let me choose something different that dont need to aim, why it cant be a "skilled" thing? So my questions are, what are melee spamm, and why only "skill thing" is only aim, at least in warframe, i dont care other games. Edited July 17, 2015 by Grimlock- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elele Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 The point of the shooter genre is to test the player's ability to shoot at another target and various circumstances. Thats literally the reason why we call games like warframe SHOOTERS. Except if you look at Warframe's steam page, the first trailer listed (the Tubemen of Regor trailer) shows PVP. The trailer shows two kills, one by melee and the other by Volt's 1. Yes there is shooting involved but melee and abilities are the selling point. This is DE's official stance: DE is advertising this PVP as a mix of shooting, melee and abilities. No matter what YOU WISH this game to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3DBelmont456 Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) The point of the shooter genre is to test the player's ability to shoot at another target and various circumstances. Thats literally the reason why we call games like warframe SHOOTERS. Warframe let you choose on a balanced way to do, a melee gameplay, and gunplay, but its still a shooter, or is not because it have a melee? If i choose to play a melee, is not a shooter game anymore? here is no way that anyone, both gamers young and old would not agree that the main skill factor is a shooter game is the ability to shoot. You are writing this as if, warframe, a shooter game does not exactly require "aim" you can survive doing other things. I just want to repeat that this is a shooter. So, the only thing "skilled" in warframe is shoot? because...? Yes, it requires aim, or not? why that question? Yes, you are right, warframe its a third person shooter, but that is not an excuse on not melee gameplay, right? So, because shoot its skill on warframe or all shooters, melee gameplay cant? Sure there are other skills that are needed, thats a given. But in the end its the "aim skill" that wins games and gets kills and gets objectives. You can have the best plan and map control in the world, if your teammates cant aim then they're going nowhere. How, and why its only "skill" at least in warframe aim, and no melee combat gameplay in a balanced way, how is it now. Talking on warframe, a third person shooter, where you can equip a melee, why it is not a "skilled" gameplay, based on your argument "objetives"... If my teammates dont want to aim, they can ever choose a melee gameplay, because warframe system let me, in a balanced way. So my questions are, what are melee spamm, and why only "skill thing" is only aim, at least in warframe, i dont care other games. Here, let me answer this question with something simple... Skill vs no skill: Something that takes skill in general is a strategy, playstyle, technique, etc. that everyone can do (or at least attempt), but is incredibly difficult to master. Sniping for example can be argued takes no skill to do, however in games like Warframe, Halo or even Quake, Sniping is among the most challenging things you will ever do in your life, period... not only do you have to be pinpoint while being fired at (going for headshots), you have to sometimes do this while not zoomed in because you will put yourself at a disadvantage up close... Strafejumping and Rocket jumping in Quake is another example of skill that is easy to learn but hard to master in terms of movement... it takes a form of successive keyboard strokes and mouse movements to pull off and only the most dedicated player could take this movement to the next level WHILE being able to retaliate with skillful accuracy, likewise using a projectile weapon to snipe quick targets takes an extraordinarily amount of skill requiring to predict the trajectory of your target in order to lead a shot that will successfully land, this is especially true from a distance, and why only the best physicists stuck to a game that had a lot of this called Tribes Ascend... Something that takes NO SKILL on the other hand is a strategy, playstyle, technique, tactic, etc. that is not only easy to learn, but easy to master with little to no effort involved by the player... A good example of this would be nade spamming in Halo, especially in servers with unlimited grenades, the Noob tube in CoD, corner camping with a power weapon such as a shotgun or a one hit kill weapon, walling (not wallhacking) with a one hit kill weapon, Camping, etc... In Warframe the strategies that fall under the NO SKILL category are: Ability spamming, Ult spamming, Energy camping to do both, melee spamming, Knockdown spamming, using a cheap combination of mods, etc... this is why most Conclave players with this to be balanced because it is not fun to deal with, neither is it fun to lose to because it's not really a skilled playstyle, anyone can do it, therefore anyone can win using said tactics... Edited July 17, 2015 by R3DBelmont456 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-dicht.ThanksFrost- Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 @grimlock In the first instance I never said that melee had no part in warframe, I said that it is a huge part of it because of its "DNA". once again you are putting words in my mouth. You are talking about the game as a whole I am talkih about PvP, which needs a lot more drastic changes to the games core than the pve. @elele This made me lol. Of course it showed melee and skills. PvE is still the main aspect of warframe! XD I would be dumb of them not to show melee and skills in their traile , aka the things that make their game different. But once again, this is PvE where the devs can do whatever. In PvP, there is restriction on order to create balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockscl Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) "Skill is not just aiming" @Rockscl I would absolutely LOVE to know your gaming background. Because I am absolutely perplexed, no let me rephrase that, utterly dumbfounded as to how you came up with that response. There is no way that anyone, both gamers young and old would not agree that the main skill factor is a shooter game is the ability to shoot. You are writing this as if, warframe, a shooter game does not exactly require "aim" you can survive doing other things. I just want to repeat that this is a shooter. You want it to be just a shooter, but its not I have said it before, my gaming background is shooters and mobas About what other skills are involved, skill is how well you perform a task, there im just going to give one example, you hardly can chain slingshots unless you: 1) know the area 2) can estimate the direction and distance covered, that is either spatial intelligence, kinesthetic, or a conjugation of both, while aiming is probably kinesthetic and interpersonal As a melee player, if you cant chain slingshots you cant catch any decent player without draining your stamina like i said, saying that this is just aiming, or that aiming is priority is superfluous, doesnt matter how much you get shocked by it, DE has expressed their view about skill, and when they say that when to use an ability is skill, they are very widely implying that they understand that warframe is not just a shooter text`s color got screwed wtf Edited July 17, 2015 by rockscl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalahssalyst Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 @grimlock In the first instance I never said that melee had no part in warframe, I said that it is a huge part of it because of its "DNA". once again you are putting words in my mouth. You are talking about the game as a whole I am talkih about PvP, which needs a lot more drastic changes to the games core than the pve. Im talking about pvp. But i want to know, what is melee spamm, you mentioned it on all your topics, but i dont understand what is that. Can you xplain please? And why, only aim, and no melee gameplay its on "skill" argument... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elele Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 @elele This made me lol. Of course it showed melee and skills. PvE is still the main aspect of warframe! XD I would be dumb of them not to show melee and skills in their traile , aka the things that make their game different. But once again, this is PvE where the devs can do whatever. In PvP, there is restriction on order to create balance. No I'm specifically talking about the PVP part of the trailer. Not the PVE. They're showing the Team Annihilation mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3DBelmont456 Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 Im talking about pvp. But i want to know, what is melee spamm, you mentioned it on all your topics, but i dont understand what is that. Can you xplain please? And why, only aim, and no melee gameplay its on "skill" argument... Here, let me answer this question with something simple... Skill vs no skill: Something that takes skill in general is a strategy, playstyle, technique, etc. that everyone can do (or at least attempt), but is incredibly difficult to master. Sniping for example can be argued takes no skill to do, however in games like Warframe, Halo or even Quake, Sniping is among the most challenging things you will ever do in your life, period... not only do you have to be pinpoint while being fired at (going for headshots), you have to sometimes do this while not zoomed in because you will put yourself at a disadvantage up close... Strafejumping and Rocket jumping in Quake is another example of skill that is easy to learn but hard to master in terms of movement... it takes a form of successive keyboard strokes and mouse movements to pull off and only the most dedicated player could take this movement to the next level WHILE being able to retaliate with skillful accuracy, likewise using a projectile weapon to snipe quick targets takes an extraordinarily amount of skill requiring to predict the trajectory of your target in order to lead a shot that will successfully land, this is especially true from a distance, and why only the best physicists stuck to a game that had a lot of this called Tribes Ascend... Something that takes NO SKILL on the other hand is a strategy, playstyle, technique, tactic, etc. that is not only easy to learn, but easy to master with little to no effort involved by the player... A good example of this would be nade spamming in Halo, especially in servers with unlimited grenades, the Noob tube in CoD, corner camping with a power weapon such as a shotgun or a one hit kill weapon, walling (not wallhacking) with a one hit kill weapon, Camping, etc... In Warframe the strategies that fall under the NO SKILL category are: Ability spamming, Ult spamming, Energy camping to do both, melee spamming, Knockdown spamming, using a cheap combination of mods, etc... this is why most Conclave players with this to be balanced because it is not fun to deal with, neither is it fun to lose to because it's not really a skilled playstyle, anyone can do it, therefore anyone can win using said tactics... ^^^^ I posted this yesterday to answer you question and you are still wondering?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalahssalyst Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) ^^^^ I posted this yesterday to answer you question and you are still wondering?... In Warframe the strategies that fall under the NO SKILL category are: Ability spamming, Ult spamming, Energy camping to do both, melee spamming, Knockdown spamming, using a cheap combination of mods, etc... this is why most Conclave players with this to be balanced because it is not fun to deal with, neither is it fun to lose to because it's not really a skilled playstyle, anyone can do it, therefore anyone can win using said tactics... What is melee spamming, and why melee cant be a skilled thing? Because MM? You still dont answer the "skill" thing about melee and gun play... But if someone its playing without MM can you know if he is with it or without? So, if someone plays without MM until it is removed/reworked/lajksdlkasd if DE think it needs that, people still is going to say melee its easy E to win etc. It happends before, and still is with or without... Trust me, without MM melee its really really really hard to use, is not that simple like aim, and shot with a semi automatic hit scan weapon... Edited July 17, 2015 by Grimlock- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3DBelmont456 Posted July 18, 2015 Author Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) In Warframe the strategies that fall under the NO SKILL category are: Ability spamming, Ult spamming, Energy camping to do both, melee spamming, Knockdown spamming, using a cheap combination of mods, etc... this is why most Conclave players with this to be balanced because it is not fun to deal with, neither is it fun to lose to because it's not really a skilled playstyle, anyone can do it, therefore anyone can win using said tactics... What is melee spamming, and why melee cant be a skilled thing? Because MM? You still dont answer the "skill" thing about melee and gun play... But if someone its playing without MM can you know if he is with it or without? So, if someone plays without MM until it is removed/reworked/lajksdlkasd if DE think it needs that, people still is going to say melee its easy E to win etc. It happends before, and still is with or without... Trust me, without MM melee its really really really hard to use, is not that simple like aim, and shot with a semi automatic hit scan weapon... I disagree... even without MM, melee is pretty overpowered, and to answer your question, melee spam is the act of repeatedly hitting the melee key which is E by default, usually this is accompanied by copter chasing or just using a stance with high forward momentum, or martial magnetism... With melee, getting kills by spamming E can never be skilled because even if you don't have martial magnetism, all you have to do is stand close to them, mash E and you don't really need to aim, just press E as quickly as possible and BOOM you'll kill them pretty quickly... anyone can do this strategy and anyone can honestly do really good in any game just using this strategy, sometimes good enough to carry an entire team... With guns, due to the PC version not having aim assist unless you're using a controller (and even if you do, the likelyhood of you hitting someone that's coptering or using directional melee is extremely low unless you can lead with high sensitivity...), it is difficult and sometimes very tricky to land a shot, especially with precision or projectile weapons. Sure, you say Guns have the advantage from range... but NOT when someone can close the gap so quickly with the movement advantage melee offers... so the ONLY way for you to retaliate with a gun is to fire while moving and not ADS ing which in itself requires quite a bit of skill, not everyone is capable of accurate shots while moving quickly and hipfiring while not standing still, shooting a target moving just as quickly. Knowing this, using guns, especially those with low TTK actually takes significantly more skill to use than it does to chase people down and spam E on them, assuming both players are of equal skill... The biggest issue the Kogake has atm is the potential to stunlock, which the furax has as well, so used in conjunction with MM, Relentless assault and explosive demise, it becomes cheap as heck... Edited July 20, 2015 by R3DBelmont456 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Double991 Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 When you're shooting at someone while backing up and all they can do is swing at the air, then you know they are spamming the hardest they can. Multiply by 4 to represent a whole team and you have a mess. You ever tried jumping on a box and then you see them swinging at the box? It's all they know. Some of them can get away with it but the vast majority get wrecked by guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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