Bring Back Old Coptering

[SirSkellington]

That discussion is not what I have an issue with, it's the logical side that I have an issue with. That is all.

What logical side. Show me PLEASE the logic behind the new parkour. I have given you the potential physics and logic behind ground coptering. Explain to me how the 4 different maneuvers you do completely separate of eachother make any logical sense with the new parkour system.

I love it when goalposts shift.

[Educated_Beast]

Actually, Coptering was a bug that was then adopted as a feature. It wasn't 'fixed' it was removed. Why does learning to play with movement 2.0 necessitate that coptering remain removed? Oh right, it doesn't. The two can exist in harmony (it would have been glorious).

Yes!

I also don't understand why wall running was removed. Wall running looks way smoother than this goofy hoping. Vertical hop, ok whatever, the horizontal hop versus wall run was a downgrade in animation and gun play.

So far, I am not to impressed, it's just to slow. Gonna main Volt from now on till get bored.

I thought warframes signature was fast paced play. This new game needs about a 30-50% speed base speed increase on all frames across the board.

[The.Night.Wolf]

1) Coptering is plain stupid. There is no logic behind it and it was a a bug.

2)Indeed the new parkour does not match your Warframes momentum, it's something that I listed in my feedback.

However I don't think we should create a blood feud over something that has only been out for one day.

[Eftycchia]

Keep both. Make the warframes die and explode into absurd amounts of gore if it copters too hard and ended up smacking itself against a wall.

Edited July 31, 2015 by ViroVeteruscy

[TheErebus.]

-snip-

No, what you're doing is just avoiding trying to improve Parkour 2.0. Your way of improving it, is to just bring the old one back as an option for movement. That isn't improving the new system.

It's like if instead of users putting forward Quality of Life fixes for the new Starchart (back in U14), they just kept saying "Bring the old one back as an option".

 

 

What logical side. Show me PLEASE the logic behind the new parkour. I have given you the potential physics and logic behind ground coptering. Explain to me how the 4 different maneuvers you do completely separate of eachother make any logical sense with the new parkour system.

I love it when goalposts shift.

Your logic for coptering is as sound as the logic behind the Void. 

Wouldn't the friction from ground coptering cause severe damage to the frame's lower body? 

Wouldn't the constant spinning throw them off-balance?

 

But you know what, I'm done with the logic. It's a point that will keep going back and forth, because I cannot see the validity behind your reasoning.

Edited July 31, 2015 by TheErebus.

[SirSkellington]

No, what you're doing is just avoiding trying to improve Parkour 2.0. Your way of improving it, is to just bring the old one back as an option for movement. That isn't improving the new system.

It's like if instead of users putting forward Quality of Life fixes for the new Starchart (back in U14), they just kept saying "Bring the old one back as an option".

 

 

Your logic for coptering is as sound as the logic behind the Void. 

But you know what, I'm done with the logic. It's a point that will keep going back and forth, because I cannot see the validity behind your reasoning.

You have YET to present any form of actual thought outside of "no ur wrong bcuz i said so" or "then u fix it" Shove off already if you have literally nothing to contribute.

[NovusNiveus]

The hopping animation looks really jank, I will say. I like the new wallrunning mechanically, but not aesthetically. Ideally I'd like to see something similar to the old animation that retains the infinite distance and the nice new ability to change direction whenever you want.

Edited July 31, 2015 by NovusNiveus

[The.Night.Wolf]

You have YET to present any form of actual thought outside of "no ur wrong bcuz i said so" or "then u fix it" Shove off already if you have literally nothing to contribute.

Ye, no flame war. You two should both argue somewhere else if you're going to throw words into each others mouthes.

For one thing, there is no way Coptering makes sense. There has never been a case of people getting launched across a jungle at the speed of sound because they spun around with a 25cm dagger. Parkour needs to improve and DE will fix it, however you both should be aware that it's the 1st day after release. I for one find most problems with the tricks making Warframe abilities less useful ( in terms of mobility ).

[Eftycchia]

This thread has been nothing but pointless arguments from two entitled people for the past few replies.

Let's make actual feedback instead of blabbering about eachother even more.

Or, you know, let's all be Canadian and say sorry to eachother.

 

So, tested a few movement techniques from P2.0. It all looks fluid and the only thing I always get bothered about is the walljump. Sure, it's a great alternative to vertical movement, but I also would like to see DE keep wallrun as it is an aesthetically and functionally pleasing movement option to use since the beginning of the game where coptering didn't exist. 

[SirSkellington]

Ye, no flame war. You two should both argue somewhere else if you're going to throw words into each others mouthes.

For one thing, there is no way Coptering makes sense. There has never been a case of people getting launched across a jungle at the speed of sound because they spun around with a 25cm dagger. Parkour needs to improve and DE will fix it, however you both should be aware that it's the 1st day after release. I for one find most problems with the tricks making Warframe abilities less useful ( in terms of mobility ).

There has also never been a case of an engineered killing machine possessing metallic skin and supernatural powers. My point regarding normal ground coptering was that the warframe has abnormally strong muscles and is capable of putting them to use in an effort to seperate an enemys halfs. it being useful for mobility is nothing more than a happy side effect. Pretty much exactly like Rhinos Charge and Excals Sword Dash work.

[SquirmyBurrito]

It was a bug, plain and simple. Not a feature.

Pitching yourself across the largest map in the game in 2 swings was never intended. Bullet Jump isn't at it's best right now, but it's a hell of a lot better than coptering. You do not depend on mods to use Bullet Jump, the same way you don't depend on reload mods to reload. You depended on certain weapons for coptering, because most of the others literally could not activate the bug that threw you. The max attack speed of the Scindo Prime would never take you as far as the regular Tipedo. It's a good thing that Bullet Jump doesn't give us coptering's level of broken, not bad.

 

You can keep denying it all you want, the fact of the matter is coptering is/was a feature. It did start out as a bug, this I do not dispute, but it was later adopted as a feature.

Originally intended? No, certainly not. But with later tweaking it was certainly developer endorsed. Whether or not it is better is a matter of opinion, continually stating your opinion isn't going to sway my own on the subject.

You mean the same way you didn't depend on mods to copter? You just needed a melee weapon capable of attacking (read: all of them), just as the only thing you need to be able to bullet jump is a warframe. Pre-sword alone, you couldn't even unequip your melee weapon so coptering was always a thing you could do. 80% of the melee weapons could be used for standard coptering easily achieving and/or surpassing the speeds and distances bullet jumping does, 10% were exceptionally good, 10% were terribly slow. This last 10% tended to be the higher damage weapons (thus the slower attack speed) and were good at directional melee flinging. The Scindo Prime is a top-tier spike-dps melee weapon, it being bad at coptering was a balancing feature in my eyes. Now what reason is there to use any non-dagger melee weapon over the scindo prime/orthos prime?

 

So this makes perfect sense then?

 

http://gfycat.com/MealyBiodegradableCusimanse

 

This makes total sense and the action is completely logical. In fact, let's ignore how the frame itself hasn't smashed it's body into a broken heap, and just say that the the speed makes perfect sense. More so than how Parkour 2.0 acts.

 

To be fair, it looks like that volt is using speed (thus the outrageous fling results). As for the frame not killing itself against the walls: Why the hell would it? I mean, We can fall from max skybox height and not die (look at the drop distance on the uranus tileset), we can max duration rhino charge/tailwind into a wall and not die, why would copter flings be the exception?

 

Yes!

I also don't understand why wall running was removed. Wall running looks way smoother than this goofy hoping. Vertical hop, ok whatever, the horizontal hop versus wall run was a downgrade in animation and gun play.

So far, I am not to impressed, it's just to slow. Gonna main Volt from now on till get bored.

I thought warframes signature was fast paced play. This new game needs about a 30-50% speed base speed increase on all frames across the board.

 

I think the new wall hopping could definitely use some animation changes in addition to some potential control changes (so that wallrunning and gunning is more viable). This in addition to a general speed increase so that I might be able to forget coptering.

[NovusNiveus]

There has also never been a case of an engineered killing machine possessing metallic skin and supernatural powers. My point regarding normal ground coptering was that the warframe has abnormally strong muscles and is capable of putting them to use in an effort to seperate an enemys halfs. it being useful for mobility is nothing more than a happy side effect. Pretty much exactly like Rhinos Charge and Excals Sword Dash work.

 

It's academic now, anyway - it's not coming back. We can be fairly sure of that, so in my opinion all that there is to discuss is what you don't like about the current system and how it could be changed to your liking.

[The.Night.Wolf]

There has also never been a case of an engineered killing machine possessing metallic skin and supernatural powers. My point regarding normal ground coptering was that the warframe has abnormally strong muscles and is capable of putting them to use in an effort to seperate an enemys halfs. it being useful for mobility is nothing more than a happy side effect. Pretty much exactly like Rhinos Charge and Excals Sword Dash work.

Aye, then I understand you. However air coptering is something that should be gone.

[SquirmyBurrito]

It's academic now, anyway - it's not coming back. We can be fairly sure of that, so in my opinion all that there is to discuss is what you don't like about the current system and how it could be changed to your liking.

 

Here is how to make the new system better (IMO) in five easy steps:

1. Get rid of its momentum cancelling BS.

2. Increase its speed and distance by at least 10% at base.

3. Get rid of its run stopping bug.

4. Bring back coptering to go alongside it.

5. Un-neuter directional air melee.

 

Aye, then I understand you. However air coptering is something that should be gone.

 

Why?

[Yezzik]

We need coptering as a means of getting momentum WITHOUT hurling ourselves through the air with no fine control over our motion, and without a press of Space pinning us to the ceiling.

[izzatuw]

You have YET to present any form of actual thought outside of "no ur wrong bcuz i said so" or "then u fix it" Shove off already if you have literally nothing to contribute.

Well to be fair all I really boiled down was "I want copter back because parkouring is for newbs"

[SirSkellington]

Well to be fair all I really boiled down was "I want copter back because parkouring is for newbs"

So you completely ignored how I explained that current mechanics slow gameplay to a crawl due to their limitations. Cool.

[izzatuw]

So you completely ignored how I explained that current mechanics slow gameplay to a crawl due to their limitations. Cool.

And coptering only suited a few melee weapons making weapons like Galatine unwanted due to it's meh aerial melee but horrible spin attack distance but the new system kinda opens up the options for melee so they won't feel too forced to use weapons like Tipedo to catch up. I could definitely see an overall sprint/movement buff for all the frames.

[SirSkellington]

It's academic now, anyway - it's not coming back. We can be fairly sure of that, so in my opinion all that there is to discuss is what you don't like about the current system and how it could be changed to your liking.

As Squirmy mentioned, remove the movement limiting capabilities that are now part of the core mechanics.

 

Additionally I don't want to see more mods to be required for more speed. Airglide and bullet jump have (from a few screenshots I have seen) several mods (all the same minus the element they provide) that increase these abilities speeds. This would mean in order to reach a relatively high speed, and maintain it you would have to have 3 total mods applied to your loadout (Armored Agility, Rush, and the new R10 P2.0 mods) all the while keeping melee to a bare minimum if not completely unequipping the weapon as it halts your momentum. This seems rather excessive in that I, and I'm sure many others, thoroughly enjoyed coptering into the fray and decimating several enemies and continuing my carnage with more swings.

Sadly, as previously stated, melee halts momentum abruptly and gives no such advantage. I also found that coptering was an effective way to get out of a tough spot because it would clear a path of enemies for you while getting you to a safe distance.

[Culaio]

To make parkour 2.0 better DE needs to:

-increase a lot normal and spriting speed. since game right now is painfuly slow

-make spritng really togateble since currently this option doesnt really work since we are stoped from spiritng a LOT which is a HUGE problem.

-"buff" ground slide attack(reverse the nerf to it that happen in U17), it needs to have much greater range and speed since currently using it in combat is suicide, if you are close enough to use it against enemies then the probably can kill you and if you use this ability from further away then there is high chance that you wont be able to kill all enemies in the group and will end up in the middle of enemy group and will get killed. slide attack was perviously good to attack enemy groups or escaping location where we are surrounded by enemies, something we cant do now, this nerf also made many of fast melee weapons useless since there is no real reasons to use them, you cant use them for speed and strong weapons like scinod prime have MUCH greater damage.

-buff bulletjump, its range is too short and it needs MUCH greater speed. to be goo  alternative to previous copter.

[SirSkellington]

And coptering only suited a few melee weapons making weapons like Galatine unwanted due to it's meh aerial melee but horrible spin attack distance but the new system kinda opens up the options for melee so they won't feel too forced to use weapons like Tipedo to catch up. I could definitely see an overall sprint/movement buff for all the frames.

Galantine served my valkyr and volt very well in that the attack speed buff coupled with an attack speed mod that improved the dash significantly all the while providing strong range within melee standards for wide swinging spin attacks on groups.

 

Now no matter your melee you are limited to maybe a 2m distance and abruptly stop

 

As for the P2.0 system there are several small redundancies.

Ctrl+lookup+jump is a high jump. Negated by infinite vertical wall climbing.

Double jump. Negated by both of the above as the normal high jump can be executed while sliding.

Infinite vertical wall climbing. Negated by the high jump in most cases, even more-so if the old system of wall running was put in place. (Like with excals super jump. removed because melee jump made this ability pointless)

Sprinting is pointless now since you slide even at a walking pace when you press ctrl. You can do all the movement based skills without once pressing shift unless you wish to go at a slightly faster pace.

 

The biggest problem I see with this system is that each mechanic relies too much on another mechanic. Removing one hampers the others. I saw no need to "fix" or change the old system as it worked very well for me, others and for warframe. Sure a few tweaks here and there May have helped some. Why would simply walking and jumping into a wall put you into a full on sprint of a wall run?

 

Personally I felt a small sense of accomplishment when I completed the void challenge rooms or got to the high up secret void rooms as most times you had to skillfully maneuver up and around to get into them.

[-N7-Leonhart]

http://strawpoll.me/5082028

Bring back Coptering imma cri vote 4 it.

 

No.

[TheBrsrkr]

You can keep denying it all you want, the fact of the matter is coptering is/was a feature. It did start out as a bug, this I do not dispute, but it was later adopted as a feature.

Originally intended? No, certainly not. But with later tweaking it was certainly developer endorsed. Whether or not it is better is a matter of opinion, continually stating your opinion isn't going to sway my own on the subject.

You mean the same way you didn't depend on mods to copter? You just needed a melee weapon capable of attacking (read: all of them), just as the only thing you need to be able to bullet jump is a warframe. Pre-sword alone, you couldn't even unequip your melee weapon so coptering was always a thing you could do. 80% of the melee weapons could be used for standard coptering easily achieving and/or surpassing the speeds and distances bullet jumping does, 10% were exceptionally good, 10% were terribly slow. This last 10% tended to be the higher damage weapons (thus the slower attack speed) and were good at directional melee flinging. The Scindo Prime is a top-tier spike-dps melee weapon, it being bad at coptering was a balancing feature in my eyes. Now what reason is there to use any non-dagger melee weapon over the scindo prime/orthos prime?

To be fair, it looks like that volt is using speed (thus the outrageous fling results). As for the frame not killing itself against the walls: Why the hell would it? I mean, We can fall from max skybox height and not die (look at the drop distance on the uranus tileset), we can max duration rhino charge/tailwind into a wall and not die, why would copter flings be the exception?

I think the new wall hopping could definitely use some animation changes in addition to some potential control changes (so that wallrunning and gunning is more viable). This in addition to a general speed increase so that I might be able to forget coptering.

Coptering was a bug. Not a feature. It was not normalized. It was not intended. It was admitted to be, by the devs themselves, to be a physics bug that happens with the momentum of the spin reactong with weapon attack speed and breaking something.

Spin attacks are not coptering. That refers yo the physics bug specifically. Not all weapons could copter, heavy or not. For instance, the Ninkana, half the scythes, fists, claws Nami Solo, the list goes on. Meaning that you had to choose between your melee weapon of choice or movement. Bullet jump has no such requirements. You just Bullet Jump. No requirements. The Scindo Prime is a slow weapon, with a slow SPIN ATTACK. The reason to use something other than Scindo/Orthos prime is the same reason you use something other than the Boltor/Soma Prime: because it's my choice.

[inBlue]

Let's be real here, the reason DE removed coptering was so people couldn't rush through missions and grind efficiently.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Coptering was a bug. Not a feature. It was not normalized. It was not intended. It was admitted to be, by the devs themselves, to be a physics bug that happens with the momentum of the spin reactong with weapon attack speed and breaking something.

Spin attacks are not coptering. That refers yo the physics bug specifically. Not all weapons could copter, heavy or not. For instance, the Ninkana, half the scythes, fists, claws Nami Solo, the list goes on. Meaning that you had to choose between your melee weapon of choice or movement. Bullet jump has no such requirements. You just Bullet Jump. No requirements. The Scindo Prime is a slow weapon, with a slow SPIN ATTACK. The reason to use something other than Scindo/Orthos prime is the same reason you use something other than the Boltor/Soma Prime: because it's my choice.

 

Keyword being "was". At its conception, it was indeed a bug. But was later adopted as a full blow feature. All weapons could copter to some degree, some were just ridiculously bad at at. You do realize that "because it's my choice." reasoning also applies to why someone would choose to copter with the furax instead of the ceramic dagger or the tipedo, right?

 

Facts:

-Coptering started as a bug.

-Coptering was later adopted as a feature.

-S#&$ty coptering is still coptering (coptering being the act of using a melee weapon's spin attack for movement).

 

If you continue to deny any of these I will ignore you as that will be a clear indication of your refusal to have a productive conversation on this matter.

Edited August 1, 2015 by SquirmyBurrito