Excalibur skill 1 gives far too much for 25 energy

[AreWeHuman]

Slash n Dash is Overpowered? try using it on Pluto mission.

and Javelin has a 360 degree arc hitting 1k dmg "Per Target" and hits EVERYTHING within the skill's range...

I don't know how to express to you that at the cost of 100 energy that isn't impressive other than how I already have in this thread. Have you read it?

The only thing that needs done to slash dash is to narrow the swathe it cuts through. This would make it fit Excalibur's theme as a more mobile finesse based melee frame while differentiating it from Rhino's charge, which acts as more of a crowd control ability. The fact that slash dash is one of the few useful first abilities isn't really a compelling reason to nerf it. The other first abilities just need to be brought up to its level. Shuriken has already been mentioned, but Mag's is even more useless, literally the only use I've found for it is pulling the shields away from shield lancers. It can't even pull enemies off ledges if there's a railing in the way, which is the first thing I thought of using it for.

If some of the other abilities scaled as well as slash dash, they would just end up being even more broken. Except mags skills probs. She's not in great shape imo. And I don't think slash dash needs big nerfs or fundamental changes. It is just so worth the energy it costs because it combines what is imo some of the best utility in the game with very energy-efficient damage to rather large areas. The ability simply does everything, at the cost of 25 energy. I like the low energy cost. I like the utility. I don't like that the ability can pretty much do anything. I think the damage may have to get toned down. 1-hitting most/all of the minor enemies is fine. It almost kills the alot of the bigger stuff which I feel is overboard considering the other strengths of the moves. Or, like what I already suggested, give the ability a max target limit (4 hits I feel would be fine. 2 at level 1 and 1 for every point in the skill) Give people a reason to consider using radial javelin over slash dash at least.

Edited January 19, 2013 by AreWeHuman

[Zakalwe]

If some of the other abilities scaled as well as slash dash, they would just end up being even more broken. Except mags skills probs. She's not in great shape imo. And I don't think slash dash needs big nerfs or fundamental changes. It is just so worth the energy it costs because it combines what is imo some of the best utility in the game with very energy-efficient damage to rather large areas. The ability simply does everything, at the cost of 25 energy. I like the low energy cost. I like the utility. I don't like that the ability can pretty much do anything. I think the damage may have to get toned down. 1-hitting most/all of the minor enemies is fine. It almost kills the alot of the bigger stuff which I feel is overboard considering the other strengths of the moves. Or, like what I already suggested, give the ability a max target limit (4 hits I feel would be fine. 2 at level 1 and 1 for every point in the skill) Give people a reason to consider using radial javelin over slash dash at least.

HEADSHOT

[t3st]

Fair point. Building Ash, Ember, and Rhino now.

Do any of the others suit Melee as well as Excalibur?

For melee, Volt's sprint is amazing, and you can have it up often. Overcharge regularly clears out a quarter of the map.

Ash is much more fun now with a 25 teleport and 35 smoke bomb (can close much more easily and often).

Rhino has invulnerability (enough said), and charge for positioning/escapes.

To me, Excal's only decent ability feels lacklustre - I only use charge to get around on Pluto, or escape desperate situations. It's better and faster just to shoot everything with my Rank 30 guns. I think slash dash should do some bonus damage scaled from your weapon so it's more useful in the end-game.

[Zakalwe]

Super Jump is an awesome ability too. :)

[AreWeHuman]

Super Jump is an awesome ability too. :)

Still sucks that it isn't useful for a lot/most of the game though. Only the less commong large rooms have a ceiling worth superjumping under.

[Zakalwe]

I use super jump in loads of rooms, it's useful in more than just the larger ones. There are quite a few ways to skip out stair cases, or negate having to walk around higher railings that you can super jump over to get to hiding enemies much more quickly than it takes for them to pop back up or move into line of site.

It's an amazing skill, very underused.

[Sealgaire]

I don't know how to express to you that at the cost of 100 energy that isn't impressive other than how I already have in this thread. Have you read it?

If some of the other abilities scaled as well as slash dash, they would just end up being even more broken. Except mags skills probs. She's not in great shape imo. And I don't think slash dash needs big nerfs or fundamental changes. It is just so worth the energy it costs because it combines what is imo some of the best utility in the game with very energy-efficient damage to rather large areas. The ability simply does everything, at the cost of 25 energy. I like the low energy cost. I like the utility. I don't like that the ability can pretty much do anything. I think the damage may have to get toned down. 1-hitting most/all of the minor enemies is fine. It almost kills the alot of the bigger stuff which I feel is overboard considering the other strengths of the moves. Or, like what I already suggested, give the ability a max target limit (4 hits I feel would be fine. 2 at level 1 and 1 for every point in the skill) Give people a reason to consider using radial javelin over slash dash at least.

That's why I suggested decreasing it's AOE to just enemies that Excalibur passes through. Seems like that simple change would alleviate all the problems you have with it. As far as it scaling too well, have fun getting stopped dead in your tracks at the first enemy you hit if you try using it on Pluto without any +power damage mods.

[AreWeHuman]

I use super jump in loads of rooms, it's useful in more than just the larger ones. There are quite a few ways to skip out stair cases, or negate having to walk around higher railings that you can super jump over to get to hiding enemies much more quickly than it takes for them to pop back up or move into line of site.

It's an amazing skill, very underused.

Uh the only rooms where you can skip staircases are the large rooms with high ceilings. Which are the rarer sort of rooms. Which is where I said it is useful. In any of the rooms where regular super jump hits the ceiling from the low floors, super jump is slow. You lose momentum using it. None of those rooms require that you gain nonlinear elevation and the fastest way to gain elevation accross a fixed linear route is typically to slide->jump->ADS right before the stairs start. It is as fast/faster than sprinting and will carry you up most staircases. and costs no stamina. It's pretty much just the best way to move in any sort of straight line. It is semi useful in the smaller rooms shaped like a cents sign (like this: http://tinyurl.com/centssign) But you can traverse over the center railing without it.

That's why I suggested decreasing it's AOE to just enemies that Excalibur passes through. Seems like that simple change would alleviate all the problems you have with it. As far as it scaling too well, have fun getting stopped dead in your tracks at the first enemy you hit if you try using it on Pluto without any +power damage mods.

When I say it scales too well, I mean in comparison to other skills in the game. This does not mean I think it needs to be nerfed, only that the scaling seems out of line. Point for point I think it is more valueable than every other skill. Do you follow?

And I don't think reducing the aoe of the skill widthwise is the right way to go. You don't need to repeat it constantly. I've given you no reason to think I don't understand your suggestion. I don't think it is a very good one as it really wouldn't do much to reduce the potential of the move, but would infact just make it a little more troublesome to use (when I say a little I mean really a little). I think a target cap is a better idea. Lining people up is not that hard. the width only really shines when you go for enemies who are taking cover from your line of fire. It'd be a nerf to the skill, just not much of one. You could with a little groundwork and precision get the exact same effect out of the skill if its width were narrower by as much as ~40% which I feel would already be quite a lot.

So yeah, I see your suggestion and I saw it the first time you said it. I just didn't feel the need to comment on it because I thought it wasn't great.

Edited January 19, 2013 by AreWeHuman

[Zakalwe]

Uh the only rooms where you can skip staircases are the large rooms with high ceilings. Which are the rarer sort of rooms. Which is where I said it is useful. In any of the rooms where regular super jump hits the ceiling from the low floors, super jump is slow. You lose momentum using it. None of those rooms require that you gain nonlinear elevation and the fastest way to gain elevation accross a fixed linear route is typically to slide->jump->ADS right before the stairs start. It is as fast/faster than sprinting and will carry you up most staircases. and costs no stamina. It's pretty much just the best way to move in any sort of straight line.

Again, I'll ask you to come in game: you don't use S.Jump and take your way of moving, I'll use S.Jump. We'll navigate around parts of the map and I'll show you what I mean...

Edited January 19, 2013 by Zakalwe

[V0LK]

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

It's entertaining as hell, don't change it. Don't take away the fun! Buff other Frames instead. There no PvP mode, so balance is not important, just let people enjoy clearing whole rooms with a press of a one button.

Edited January 19, 2013 by V0LK

[Zakalwe]

There no PvP mode, so balance is not important, just let people enjoy clearing whole rooms with a press of a one button.

This is the worst thing ever.

[Sealgaire]

When I say it scales too well, I mean in comparison to other skills in the game. This does not mean I think it needs to be nerfed, only that the scaling seems out of line. Point for point I think it is more valueable than every other skill. Do you follow?

I'd be lying if I said I do. You're now saying you don't think it needs a nerf (it does), but believe that if other skills had the same utility relative to their costs, they would be broken.

And I don't think reducing the aoe of the skill widthwise is the right way to go. You don't need to repeat it constantly. I've given you no reason to think I don't understand your suggestion. I don't think it is a very good one as it really wouldn't do much to reduce the potential of the move, but would infact just make it a little more troublesome to use (when I say a little I mean really a little). I think a target cap is a better idea. Lining people up is not that hard. the width only really shines when you go for enemies who are taking cover from your line of fire. It'd be a nerf to the skill, just not much of one. You could with a little groundwork and precision get the exact same effect out of the skill if its width were narrower by as much as ~40% which I feel would already be quite a lot.

With all due respect, I think you're severely underestimating the impact narrowing it's AOE would have. I would be amazed if anyone in the game had more play time with Excalibur than me, and while I fully realize this doesn't mean I'm the most skilled with him, experience does have value.

One of the biggest problems with slash Dash is how easy it is to clear huge groups of enemies with it. It devalues any AOE ability that has a greater cost than it, which is almost all of them. Even with perfect aim and positioning, you're unlikely to get more than 4 or 5 kills if it's restricted to contact range, except in infested missions, but they're fodder anyway. This would make the skill feel more unique and suited to it's frame and reduce it's value and versatility for it's cost, which I gather is your main concern with it.

Your solution isn't bad, but it would restrict it's use as an escape move. Limiting it's kills to 5 but keeping it's current AOE would lead to you getting bogged down in large groups of enemies, unless you think it should keep traveling through enemies without damaging them after the kill limit is reached. My solution would lead to you killing fewer enemies, but retaining the mobility boost. Once you've dealt with it's excessive value for cost, you can buff the other abilities to the same level of usefulness without the need to make them broken as well.

I'm getting an eerie sense of familiarity talking with you, by the way.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Sealgaire

[Mak_Gohae]

Well, Ex is supposed to be for noobs :D

[Comatose]

as a maximum level excalibur user, with a fully leveled and modded gorgon, i find the slash and dash skill little more than a tool used to traverse long corridors to save time. Maybe it provides a little too much damage at the lower levels but overall i dont think its that bad. stunlocking Hades boss from 100% to 0 with chain blinds is, however, cause for concern.

[Zakalwe]

Well, Ex is supposed to be for noobs :D

And it shouldn't be. Tbh, the other frames are hardly more complex. The idea that Loki is for advanced users and Excalibur is for beginners is a little silly, they're both easy to use.

They should remove that focus and just call it a "well-rounded frame".

Edited January 19, 2013 by Zakalwe

[AreWeHuman]

I'd be lying if I said I do. You're now saying you don't think it needs a nerf (it does), but believe that if other skills had the same utility relative to their costs, they would be broken.

I'm not saying I don't think it needs a nerf. I'm saying i think it scales too well. If it didn't just scale up so (literally infinitely well, I.E. infinite target limit) It would not seem so out of line. The way I believe this should be fixed is to make changes to the scaling. Not by making the move just all-around less useful. You want to take away the moves ability to hit things slightly behind cover, which I feel has a pretty strong purpose in terms of the utility of the move. Again, I feel any reduction to the width greater than around 40% would be overboard, BUT IT STILL WOULD NOT STOP ME FROM LINING UP A TON OF ENEMIES AND KILLING ALL OF THEM WITH A FEW DASHES, which is what I feel is the root of the problem with the move. It has the potential to do too much damage to too many enemies. You nerf the width the potential doesn't go away. It just becomes "harder".

With all due respect, I think you're severely underestimating the impact narrowing it's AOE would have. I would be amazed if anyone in the game had more play time with Excalibur than me, and while I fully realize this doesn't mean I'm the most skilled with him, experience does have value.

Agian nerfing the AoE without going overboard just means people would have to get better at getting their ducks in a line it would require more precision but would do nothing to reduce the incredible potiential of the move for damage purposes. Which is what I feel is overpowered. I don't care if you make the AoE my direct unit collision, As long as slash dash has no target limit, Radial Javelien is somewhat useless by comparison.

Limiting it's kills to 5 but keeping it's current AoE would lead to you getting bogged down in large groups of enemies.

I never said you had to stop moving because you hit the target limit. So that idea came from you, not me..

As an alternative to a target limit, the move could have a (probably quite generous) maximum amount of damage it could deal and then spread that damage out to all targets hit. More or less the same effect. It should also probably have a hard damage cap for each target hit to keep the move useful without just instakilling more elite type enemies.

I'm getting an eerie sense of familiarity talking with you, by the way.

I doubt it. I haven't used forums of any kind for a long time.

[FuzioNda1337]

Slash does 200 damage in a straight line. It's great against mooks, but Javelin does 1000 damage. It does this in a 360 degree circle with quite a bit of range.

More importantly, here's something to remember. The opportunity cost of using powers is that you use energy and you also can't use your weapons. In general, high-level weapons with good mods right now are ridiculously powerful. A lot of the weaker powers (like Ember and Ash) are literally not worth the time it takes to cast them.

Slash Dash and Rhino Charge are actually at somewhere where powers should be. Maybe they need slight decreases in area of effect, maybe not, but they're actually worth using compared to guns.

As he says the problem is not that rhino charge and excaliburs slash its that other powers and other classes are underpowered/should be changed.

[Volume]

You can kill bosses with one teleport/switch by abusing pit mechanics; slash dash has no comparison to this, even if it might be an exploit.

[MJ12]

You can kill bosses with one teleport/switch by abusing pit mechanics; slash dash has no comparison to this, even if it might be an exploit.

Yeah but if you do that they, as I understand, don't drop anything/their drops are unreachable. Which means you can do it, but... there's not much of a point to it outside of Alerts.

[johncage]

Doesn't quite work that way, never did, and it seemed to have gotten nerfed anyway.

espeically when you have a team of gorgon users who just mow them down where they stand

[Mak_Gohae]

And it shouldn't be. Tbh, the other frames are hardly more complex. The idea that Loki is for advanced users and Excalibur is for beginners is a little silly, they're both easy to use.

They should remove that focus and just call it a "well-rounded frame".

Dude, Loki got not offensive abilities, you cant play the game with Loki the same way you do with other frames. You need to have a couple braincells to rub together which the average gamer does not.

[johncage]

don't flatter yourself, the gamers with braincells are out there playing simulators. lets not get ahead of ourselves, this is an arcade hack and slash, play it accordingly.

[Ronyn]

Agian nerfing the AoE without going overboard just means people would have to get better at getting their ducks in a line it would require more precision but would do nothing to reduce the incredible potiential of the move for damage purposes. Which is what I feel is overpowered. I don't care if you make the AoE my direct unit collision, As long as slash dash has no target limit, Radial Javelien is somewhat useless by comparison.

no. im going to have to call this one.

having a single line instead of a wide birth has a major effect on any ability period.

getting enough enemies to line up straight enough to achieve a similar level of mahem that the wide birth version would require additional time and positioning. at times it will be downright unrealistic due to enemy formations.

changing aoe changes average damage output.

a nerf to its width would be a big deal compared to its current state.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Ronyn

[MJ12]

no. im going to have to call this one.

having a single line instead of a wide birth has a major effect on any ability period.

getting enough enemies to line up straight enough to achieve a similar level of mahem that the wide birth version would require additional time and positioning. at times it will be downright unrealistic due to enemy formations.

changing aoe changes average damage output.

a nerf to its width would be a big deal compared to its current state.

I wouldn't mind a nerf to its width if it had some level of tracking ability (at least to the closest first target on reticle) so you wouldn't 'waste' it. Something of this sort should be implemented anyways, if only because having the ability to make powers track closest-to-reticle targets would make Shuriken and Fireball infinity times more useful because you could actually hit with them reliably against moving targets instead of wasting them.

Edited January 20, 2013 by MJ12

[Zakalwe]

As he says the problem is not that rhino charge and excaliburs slash its that other powers and other classes are underpowered/should be changed.

Which is a bad idea. An element of Power Creep. If everything gets too powerful, the game will get too easy. It's already very easy...

Dude, Loki got not offensive abilities, you cant play the game with Loki the same way you do with other frames. You need to have a couple braincells to rub together which the average gamer does not.

I'm pretty sure the average gamer has enough experience to know how to control a loki style off the bat. It's much more about preference than intelligence.

To make a point: all of us here are average gamers.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Zakalwe