Equinox Is Weak

[Hypernaut1]

Except there is no need in multi role. Multi role would be useful if your mission objectives would have been unknown so you might have need different roles on the same mission.

 

I can give example from Dota 2. There are heroes that are good in early game, heroes that are good late game and heroes that are average through out the game. Such heroes are useful as you can use them in a back up plan if the game goes late.

 

In Warframe you can completely fulfill all roles in 4 warframes. Since the mission objectives are always predetermined there is never a situation when you need suddenly to change a role. All multi-role is kind of a waste and not worth weaker abilities.

maybe its about play-style? not everyone plays a game for absolute min/max efficiency you know. Some people just enjoy playing a frame for its combination of skills. All you need to worry about is if a frame is enjoyable to play and viable, NOT if its the best at everything. Its impossible to make every frame be the best at one thing. There will be some frames that you play for the enjoyment, not because it can turn a t4 void mission into a cakewalk.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Hypernaut1

[Sieg]

Oh look. Someone is comparing Warframes that takes on multiple roles to Warframes with a specific role. Never seen that one happen before.

 

This is the second forum post that I have seen saying its bad. Dont play Equinox if you dont like it. or play it for the sake of the warframe, and now cause of the abilities. Seriously, learn to warframe without abilities. It gives the best results, less complainment and more fun.

 

( All Seriousness put back. There is a difference between a Multi Role frame and a Specific frame. Multi role will always be weaker in what the specifics can do. Its in all games, deal with it.)

 

Your name looked familiar. I did some searching and lo and behold, you've found my post again from a previous thread.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/499896-day-equinox-vs-night-equinox-the-eyes-of-day-totally-drank-the-night/page-2

 

Deja vu. Let's do a breakdown of your post, shall we?

 

"Someone is comparing Warframes that takes on multiple roles to Warframes with a specific role. Never seen that one happen before."

Equinox has many skills that derive from existing skills from other frames. Comparisons will happen naturally. If you're implying that Equinox is somehow a better candidate for solo play than another frame, prove it. In what situation would Equinox with her skills as of now be better than any other frame? I know arguments made on facts are much harder to back than arguments made on emotions, but that's what separates adults from children.

 

"Dont play Equinox if you dont like it."

No. Equinox is a new frame and I'd like to see to it that she gets the fixes she deserves to make her enjoyable for everyone. As of now there are many issues surrounding her (mainly the imbalance between day and night and abilities that are weak and have no range). Saying "if you don't like it, don't play it" is both idiotic and counterproductive, because newly released frames often get tweaked if they are too strong or too weak. This is one case where all her skills are too weak save for one which is insanely strong.

 

"Seriously, learn to warframe without abilities. It gives the best results, less complainment and more fun."

Are you implying that Warframe is more fun with abilities? Are you implying it takes skill to not press any buttons and use gun/melee only? What do you mean by "complainment"? Are you suggesting that everyone finds what you do fun? 

The amount of implication and selfishness from you is astounding. "So what I like it", "Don't touch her, I like being weak". What about the rest of the people who wanted an actual fun frame to use rather than a personal handicap? Yin and Yang sounded like an awesome frame concept. Switch between day and night to achieve massively different buffs and abilities. Do you think making Equinox a press 4 to win frame is a good idea?

 

All Seriousness put back.

Oh, you weren't being serious with your previous arguments? That's a relief.

 

There is a difference between a Multi Role frame and a Specific frame. Multi role will always be weaker in what the specifics can do. Its in all games, deal with it.

And nevermind. Back to playing on emotions and conjecture. But I'll humor you and repeat what I've said many times throughout this thread.

Having "versatility" does not absolve Equinox's poor skills. Equinox is not a jack-of-all-trades. It an apprentice. A pawn. The skills she emulates are far worse than the original. From the horrid range on Rest and Rage, the questionable viability of Pacify and Provoke, to the absolute uselessness of Mend to the very likely overpowered Maim, Equinox is an absolute mess right now. Many of her skill mechanics must be looked over if anyone wants to seriously use anything but Maim. I and many others do not want Equinox to turn into a one-trick pony like Saryn or Nekros, or get buried under better choices for frames.

 

But what am I thinking? It's not like you read replies or anything. If you did, you'd have already understood my argument instead of starting over from a new thread and saying the same thing. You still have not given any examples of why Equinox is good besides "Sod off, she's fun", or made any arguments that weren't derived from your own imposed definition of "fun" and your emotions. But on the off chance you do read this reply, I'll copy+paste my earlier quote to you.

 

To Zuraki: It's people like you who are halting communication between developer and player. You and many like you clamor around DE like they don't ever make mistakes, and praise every decision they do regardless if it is good for the game or not.

Equinox is weak. There is no denying it. But in order to appeal to your weak frame fetish, you militantly defend her weakest aspects, discouraging others from discussing what is wrong with her in detail. Instead of poor arguments like "well she's fun", why not try to refute any of my points as stated above and discuss why she's fun besides "i like her"?

Overly negative criticism does nothing but turn developers from fixing issues, but so does overly positive praise. When something is clearly wrong, discussion needs to happen to see to it that the developers knows what needs to be fixed. For the good of everyone and the game, let's make Equinox a frame than anyone can enjoy and not just people who like to handicap themselves for a challenge.

[Sieg]

This. All this complaining about "Generalists can't do anything" is because people are so used to running nothing but the absolute minmaxed comps every single run and looking at balance as a question of "can it oneshot level 100+ enemies in T4?"

 

On the other hand. Equinox needs a lot of QoL - the numbers on their abilities are seriously imbalanced in a lot of ways, most notably extremely low range (and Pacify/Provoke's energy drain interacting with said range) and Mend absolutely cannot go without a buff - and I'm saying this as someone whose new favorite frame, visually and thematically, is Equinox. Rushed for 150p and all. I will still use the hell out of them while waiting for hotfixes to provide desperately needed week one fixes/buffs, though.

 

 

maybe its about play-style? not everyone plays a game for absolute min/max efficiency you know. Some people just enjoy playing a frame for its combination of skills. All you need to worry about is if a frame is enjoyable to play and viable, NOT if its the best at everything. Its impossible to make every frame be the best at one thing. There will be some frames that you play for the enjoyment, not because it can turn a t4 void mission into a cakewalk.

 

You both replied with the same argument so I'll answer you two in the same post.

 

It is not difficult to build for efficiency, and Equinox offers very little even to an inefficient group.

 

You both act as if it's some big challenge to make a party comp that builds on other's weaknesses, but it actually isn't. Warframe is a very coop-oriented game that praises a good team composition. Ever since the beginning of the game, you had a frame that dealt damage and CC'd but had no utility skills (Excalibur), a frame that was all utility and no direct damage (Loki). Put them together, and you have a great combo. One that can disarm enemies that makes it easier for the Exalibur to slash dash all of them, and if he goes down he can get picked right back up by an invisible Loki. Frames are designed to be paired with other frames to increase the effectiveness of missions.

Rhino CCs, tanks and raises damage, but can't heal or have any utility skills.

Nova CCs, raises damage and gives utility, but has no tanking skills.

Trinity gives utility, can tank, but has no CC and can't raise damage.

It is not difficult to enter a party and delegate roles. There are many frames that can CC, and more than enough that can boost damage. To call switching frames "minmaxing" is inaccurate to say the least, because having a bad party composition isn't the norm. If your idea of minmaxing is saying "hey does anyone have this frame?", you have the wrong definition.

 

But to further prove a point, how about we create a bunch of non-efficient scenarios?

 

Scenario 1: 3 Rhinos and one Equinox. 

First off, Equinox won't be buffing much. Provoke may help, but Roar will definitely overshadow the measly 50% power strength that Provoke offers. Second, she won't be using Rest and Rage at all with Rhino's Stomp and aggressive playstyle. Third, she will not need Pacify and Mend because Rhino's Ironskin is renewable. What will most likely happen is Equinox is she will turn on Maim and provide CC since none of her skills are useful here.

 

Scenario 2: 3 Lokis and one Equinox.

Equinox will not be using Pacify and Provoke at all. Neither affect Loki's ability to go invisible and radial disarm. She may use Rest, but definitely not rage. Even if she does use rest, 3 invisible lokis is more than enough to take on high-hp targets. With all lokis going invisible and disarming, Equinox is going to be one of the only targets enemies can attack, so she will need to CC, aka Maim. While Maim is active, she gains stored damage from the Lokis and in return provides great and consistent radial damage.

 

Scenario 3: 3 Novas and one Equinox.

Equinox finally has a use right? 3 Novas, surely one of them needs more damage or more health right? First, Equinox will not be using Mend, Rest and Rage, or Pacify and Provoke. She will only be using Maim. Why?

Mend requires night mode and heals on demand depending on the damage dealt. For a squishy frame like Nova, Mend will not be saving any lives on reaction. If one heavy gunner looks at Nova funny, she will most likely go down unless Equinox is concentrating on nothing but her teammate's health and does not have lag. Yes, lag will be a key variable in determining whether or not someone can be saved on reaction. And after she casts Mend, she cannot cast it immediately again so if the first reaction Mend didn't save Nova, that's too bad. One downed Nova. What Equinox will most likely do instead of attempting to Mend allies on reaction is to simply prevent such situations from occurring, aka Maim. This requires Equinox to be in Day form, which stops the use of Pacify. Provoke seems like a nice choice with 50% power strength, but Nova slows enemies harder with more damage. What if a Speed Nova is in a party? Provoke would be counter-productive to the party composition.

And what of Rest and Rage? Surely a single-target sleep and single-target M-Prime would be useful in a group with 3 Novas all spamming a massive, non-line-of-sight, radial, better damage boosted M-prime? Surely?

 

Scenario 4: Nova, Loki, Rhino, Equinox

Now let's pretend these 3 multi-frame players spend quality time, thinking of a master plan, one that minmaxes to the highest degree and requires intense preparation and careful planning to execute.

Player 1: "you nova and you rhino?"

Player 2: "k"

Player 3: "sure"

So now, you have an invisible Loki that decoys and disarms all enemies, while the Nova speeds up the disarmed enemies with M-Prime, while Rhino buffs the damage of the entire party and also Stomps regularly to offer CC.

 

I now ask again: Where does Equinox's "versatility" fit in?

 

Eqinox: "F*** it"

*turns on Maim*

[(PSN)Silverback73]

summary: So an end-game frame that doesn't scale for end-game content, nor fill a specific Niche. Is this the biggest criticism? If so, have faith DE will scale her up a bit.

Edited August 2, 2015 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Yinkuji]

Except there is no need in multi role. Multi role would be useful if your mission objectives would have been unknown so you might have need different roles on the same mission.

 

I can give example from Dota 2. There are heroes that are good in early game, heroes that are good late game and heroes that are average through out the game. Such heroes are useful as you can use them in a back up plan if the game goes late.

 

In Warframe you can completely fulfill all roles in 4 warframes. Since the mission objectives are always predetermined there is never a situation when you need suddenly to change a role. All multi-role is kind of a waste and not worth weaker abilities.

Great logic. Might as well only keep the top 4 frames in the game and delete the rest. /sarcasm

 

The warframe community never ceases to amaze me.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Yinkuji

[Clowee]

I didnt like Equinox at all until I gave her a whip.  After that it felt like a whole different frame.  Dunno why.

 

I actually like Rest a lot.  I've been able to spam it to shut down large groups of enemies by targeting different parts of the group with each cast, and maxing out the range.  Generally I will now rest like 5-10 enemies and slide kill them all if they are weak or finisher kill them 1 by 1 if they are not.  I've gotten some nice 40k+ finisher hits doing this and I feel effective enough that I'm participating and contributing to the group.

 

I havent had a lot of use for pacify because I just put everything to sleep.

 

Mend is kinda meh, but yay for healing the objective, sentinels and kubrows.

 

I have decided i'm going to focus on night, learn it really well and then move to day and try to create some synergy between the two where i can switch on the fly.

[Hypernaut1]

snip-

what-are-you-talking-about?

 

that post didnt make ANY sense. you just made up a bunch of ridiculous team composition scenarios and imagined how they could go wrong.

You play Equinox if you enjoy her ability set, not because shes a perfect compliment to 3 boltor toting Rhinos in a defense mission. (hahaha, i'd probably quit a mission with 3 rhinos immediately)

 

This was so ridiculous you literally made me laugh.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Hypernaut1

[Sieg]

summary: So an end-game frame that doesn't scale for end-game content, nor fill a specific Niche. Is this the biggest criticism? If so, have faith DE will scale her up a bit.

The issue is, her only good skill, Maim, scales incredibly well with endgame content, and fulfills the "nuker" class. All her other skills are lackluster which completely ruins the concept of day/night transformation, since day-form 4 spamming is the best thing Equinox can offer.

 

Great logic. Might as well only keep the top 4 frames in the game and delete the rest. /sarcasm

 

The warframe community never ceases to amaze me.

 

What kind of logic is this? We want Equinox to be viable in all of her skills, not just one. I don't know how you got to the conclusion of "we should only play 4 frames", but you missed the point of this discussion completely.

 

 

what-are-you-talking-about?

 

that post didnt make ANY sense. you just made up a bunch of ridiculous team composition scenarios and imagined how they could go wrong.

You play Equinox if you enjoy her ability set, not because shes a perfect compliment to 3 boltor toting Rhinos in a defense mission. (hahaha, i'd probably quit a mission with 3 rhinos immediately)

 

This was so ridiculous you literally made me laugh.

 

Those "ridiculous team composition scenarios" are actual games that I went on while playing Equinox. I quickly learned that if any frame joined my party that had access to the buff/skill I was emulating with Equinox, I didn't need to use that skill at all.

 

When a Nova joined, I stopped using Rage. When a Rhino joined, I stopped using Provoke. When a Trinity joined, I stopped using Mend and Pacify. In every mission, many of my skills were simply unnecessary because a specialist was in the same mission that performed everything I could do but better. Maim was the only thing I could offer my team and while it was indeed good and I fulfilled a nuker role, I didn't want this to be the meta for Equinox. She has the potential to be so much more than just another press 4 to win nuker.

 

I'm happy this brought you some amusement though. Whenever I play Equinox it always makes me sad.

[FelisImpurrator]

 

what

 

That had absolutely no relation to the point that I could see, because I really can't remember ever implying that the definition of minmaxing was "just switch frames"...

 

No, I was referring to how many players of this game think there's only one "right way" to play, and that's having one specific build on a very narrow pool of Warframes, using maybe three or four preset team compositions, and mashing the button for one or two abilities for forty minutes straight. "Every aura except CP is trash"; "75% of all warframes are useless because they can't make the entire map locked-down or dead every three seconds"; "Only the highest DPS weapons in the game are worth anything and everything else is fodder"... all arguments I see thrown around daily, and all seemingly designed to produce the closest thing possible to an assembly line with space magic and guns.

 

What if, for instance, a squad of four doesn't want to play the same four frames every round because that just happens to be incredibly boring? What if one or two players can't maximize the "optimal" build due to lack of mods or forma? A warframe that fulfills multiple roles can shore up weaknesses in squad and build composition, while bolstering existing strengths.

 

Since when exactly did making up random hypothetical worst-case-scenarios "prove points"? I really cannot imagine. And for that matter, where did I ever imply that Equinox's kit was perfectly fine as is? Certainly not the part where I flat out stated their power set needed serious work, particularly in terms of the numbers and quite a bit of lacking QoL. It's week one. There are issues to be ironed out. But that is different from statements that imply Equinox has no purpose, such as the one two posts below my previous.

 

Edit: I see you responded with another clarification that these were actual teams. Interesting. And yet, I still don't dispute that Equinox's kit is lacking; I posted detailed feedback in the megathread on this very subject, because I love this frame's design and concept and want to see them with an extremely versatile, balanced kit that can perform well in any situation, the way they were meant to be. The difference is, I'm specifically attempting to shut down claims that the frame, or the kit in concept (as opposed to the execution, which is presently lacking in the statistical department), is completely useless because it can't oneshot or perma-stun everything. If this was not your intent, the post was not directed specifically at you.

Edited August 2, 2015 by FelisImpurrator

[(PSN)Silverback73]

The issue is, her only good skill, Maim, scales incredibly well with endgame content, and fulfills the "nuker" class. All her other skills are lackluster which completely ruins the concept of day/night transformation, since day-form 4 spamming is the best thing Equinox can offer.

What kind of logic is this? We want Equinox to be viable in all of her skills, not just one. I don't know how you got to the conclusion of "we should only play 4 frames", but you missed the point of this discussion completely.

Those "ridiculous team composition scenarios" are actual games that I went on while playing Equinox. I quickly learned that if any frame joined my party that had access to the buff/skill I was emulating with Equinox, I didn't need to use that skill at all.

When a Nova joined, I stopped using Rage. When a Rhino joined, I stopped using Provoke. When a Trinity joined, I stopped using Mend and Pacify. In every mission, many of my skills were simply unnecessary because a specialist was in the same mission that performed everything I could do but better. Maim was the only thing I could offer my team and while it was indeed good and I fulfilled a nuker role, I didn't want this to be the meta for Equinox. She has the potential to be so much more than just another press 4 to win nuker.

I'm happy this brought you some amusement though. Whenever I play Equinox it always makes me sad.

I see, now. She is the flip side of my beloved Volt: 1-3 goodness; 4 not-so-much. Edited August 2, 2015 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Sieg]

what

 

That had absolutely no relation to the point that I could see, because I really can't remember ever implying that the definition of minmaxing was "just switch frames"...

 

No, I was referring to how many players of this game think there's only one "right way" to play, and that's having one specific build on a very narrow pool of Warframes, using maybe three or four preset team compositions, and mashing the button for one or two abilities for forty minutes straight. "Every aura except CP is trash"; "75% of all warframes are useless because they can't make the entire map locked-down or dead every three seconds"; "Only the highest DPS weapons in the game are worth anything and everything else is fodder"... all arguments I see thrown around daily, and all seemingly designed to produce the closest thing possible to an assembly line with space magic and guns.

 

What if, for instance, a squad of four doesn't want to play the same four frames every round because that just happens to be incredibly boring? What if one or two players can't maximize the "optimal" build due to lack of mods or forma? A warframe that fulfills multiple roles can shore up weaknesses in squad and build composition, while bolstering existing strengths.

 

Since when exactly did making up random hypothetical worst-case-scenarios "prove points"? I really cannot imagine. And for that matter, where did I ever imply that Equinox's kit was perfectly fine as is? Certainly not the part where I flat out stated their power set needed serious work, particularly in terms of the numbers and quite a bit of lacking QoL. It's week one. There are issues to be ironed out. But that is different from statements that imply Equinox has no purpose, such as the one two posts below my previous.

 

Edit: I see you responded with another clarification that these were actual teams. Interesting. And yet, I still don't dispute that Equinox's kit is lacking; I posted detailed feedback in the megathread on this very subject, because I love this frame's design and concept and want to see them with an extremely versatile, balanced kit that can perform well in any situation, the way they were meant to be. The difference is, I'm specifically attempting to shut down claims that the frame, or the kit in concept (as opposed to the execution, which is presently lacking in the statistical department), is completely useless because it can't oneshot or perma-stun everything. If this was not your intent, the post was not directed specifically at you.

 

Sorry if I viewed your post that way. After rereading your original post, I understand you were talking loosely about the benefits of a hybrid frame over a specialized comp.

 

I understand that the "meta" is usually boring because of how ridiculously simple the game play is (buffs on top of buffs on top of DR), but keep in mind you're talking about 100+ enemies here. I believe at such a point where your weapons become increasingly useless and it gets hard to kill the simplest enemy due to how bloated their HP is, you should use every tool at your disposal to make killing them that much easier.

 

Events are a testament to this. Previous events had instantly high-level enemies with 2+ hour long survivals. enemies at that level crash the game with how much damage they do to you if you let them hit you. With absurdly high level missions, minmaxing not only becomes viable, but absolutely necessary to survive.

 

With that being said, I completely understand that minmaxing isn't necessary for something like T4E or Sechura. I agree with you. I don't want Equinox to only be used for her Maim ability. I don't want her to become some part of some boring meta down the line. She needs to be fixed so that all of her skills are viable to use, but not to the point where she becomes key to farming level 200+ enemies.

[IlluminatedOne]

She can do a lot of stuff which is good. 
But a lot of useless stuff is not so good.

[Sieg]

She can do a lot of stuff which is good. 

But a lot of useless stuff is not so good.

 

Exactly. She needs to do a lot of stuff good, but not the point where her stuff is best.

[FelisImpurrator]

*snip*

Ah, good, now we can have a proper discussion.

 

Honestly, the issue with the meta is a whole different beast, and a much older and harder problem... suffice to say that there is healthy meta and unhealthy meta, and Warframe's balance/scaling structures are presently very near the bottom ends of unhealthy meta, but again, that is a subject for another topic.

 

On the idea that Equinox should not be a one-button warframe, we are in absolute agreement. Here are my thoughts on the current state of their kit, based on information and suggestions collected from various forum posts and personal experience; the only ability I think needs a serious overhaul and not just a second pass on the stats is Mend. Equinox is amazingly beautiful and a blast to play in concept, and I absolutely want them to reach their full potential - particularly since the devs explicitly stated they wanted Equinox to be completely viable in high-level content.

[Sines314]

I haven't played Equinox, so this is just conjecture, but I feel it addresses something important about the difficulty of versatile character classes in games. Before I continue, I'm not saying there is anything unfun about Equinox. If you enjoy playing her, that's great and I mean that sincerely. If she fits your playstyle to a T? Awesome. If you just think she looks cool? That's all the reason you need. Fun is subjective, and there really isn't any discussion to be had there. I'm speaking solely from the perspective of gameplay efficacy, because that is a more objective discussion.

 

Still, I do have something to say about designing for fun rather than power. Skip to the next bold line if that's all you care about.

 

Versatile character classes have always been a bit tricky to balance. Part of the balance has to do with how much of the power they're getting from their various modes, and how often they'll be using all of their abilities. For example, a Final Fantasy 1 Red Mage is a choice you make at the start of the game. You will throughout the course of the game, make use of their swordplay, black magic and white magic. While in any given situation you might rather you had a White Mage, Black Mage or Fighter, you will be satisfied with the Red Mage in every situation. Red Mage is objectively worse than the best in every case, but you don't have to pick on a case by case basis, so picking a versatile character for all situations is helpful.

 

Alternatively, you can look at FFXI Red Mage. In this game, you would pick parties on the spot and could change them at will. You didn't need to commit to a party type that was good enough for all situations for the entire game. So to remain viable, the Red Mage had to get something else. Red Mage thus got two specialties, in Convert and Status spells. Convert turned their HP into MP, which allowed them to keep casting forever. A White Mage may have healed for more, but they had to take a break far more often than a Red Mage, meaning the Red Mage was better for long term sustain healing. Likewise their status specialty gave them a truly unique element that, while not as important as straight up damage, healing or tanking, made them stand out a little more.

In short, a versatile character needs to make full use of all it's options over the course of a 'locked in' period, or have a few uniquely distinct abilities of it's own, even if they're niche. The last option is to simply make them close enough to a specialist in all their fields that, even if you only really use one ability, the occassional utility of the other options warrants the power loss.

 

Equinox doesn't appear to fit these categories well enough, I feel. Warframe is very predictable and stable. You know what kind of a mission you are going into, and you can change your frame before the next mission, and the missions do not change enough over their course that you really wish you had a different frame in the beginning and the end. Equinox doesn't have that 'large scale' versatility going on.

 

In terms of raw power, she's really not that close to a specialist. As noted, almost all of her abilities fall short of a specialist in substantial ways. I won't go over that again.

 

Her best option is her 'uniqueness' factor. Her Power Strength boost does more than just boost damage. No other frame can provide this kind of buff, and it might allow for some useful niche options. Her Sleep isn't too bad either, as it sets up finishers with a range cast instead of a personal AoE like Radial Blind. However, the vastly reduced range pulls that usefulness into question. I don't see it being anything other than a fun trick, with it being uniquely hers as it's only noteworthy aspect.

 

For this reason, I don't see Equinox ever part of constructed maximized play parties apart from her Power Strength buff, which may entice her to join in farming builds, and possibly other options. It may even be that her Power Strength buff main contribution is nicely supplemented by her versatility in other actions. But for making the most out of T4 void keys or doing tactical alerts? I'd be surprised.

 

On Fun

Ultimately, there is nothing wrong with that though. I've been playing for years and have never fought a level 100 enemy. I'm totally fine with that. Not every frame needs to be able to be super special awesome. As long as Equinox is enjoyable enough that a decent number of people play her, then she's a good frame. People have fun in different ways, and she doesn't need to meet the "Can this help me fight level 100 enemies" variant of fun to make other players happy.

 

Still, I would very much like a buff to Mend... channeling an ability for no effect just doesn't seem very fun to me, especially since you're paying for it. I'd prefer if it were like Mesa's 1, wherein you pay the cost up front to start storing, and then deactivate to unleash. Or that it has some constant lesser effect. As it stands right now, I see it as serving nothing more than the very boring "Top off my HP" duty. And that's probably the most important thing. If Equinox is made to be more fun than powerful... then her abilities should all be fun. Mend just doesn't tickle my enjoyment bone all that much, apart from the fact that I can't have fun while I'm dead, and I suspect I'm not alone there. Steadily losing energy for no effect isn't fun, even if there is an end payoff. Add in some 'while active' HP or Shield regen, and it'll add that nice little extra fun to it.

 

Likewise, Reposes sets up melee finishers, making it's at a range distinction over Excalibur to be rather underwhelming. Perhaps it could also create a 'shroud of night' that prevents enemies seeing the player in that area, so that you can sleep a bunch of enemies, then execute them at your leisure without alerting the next group? It wouldn't be that big of a deal, but it would be a nice touch stealth killing.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Sines314

[Sieg]

Ah, good, now we can have a proper discussion.

 

Honestly, the issue with the meta is a whole different beast, and a much older and harder problem... suffice to say that there is healthy meta and unhealthy meta, and Warframe's balance/scaling structures are presently very near the bottom ends of unhealthy meta, but again, that is a subject for another topic.

 

On the idea that Equinox should not be a one-button warframe, we are in absolute agreement. Here are my thoughts on the current state of their kit, based on information and suggestions collected from various forum posts and personal experience; the only ability I think needs a serious overhaul and not just a second pass on the stats is Mend. Equinox is amazingly beautiful and a blast to play in concept, and I absolutely want them to reach their full potential - particularly since the devs explicitly stated they wanted Equinox to be completely viable in high-level content.

 

I agree that Metamorphosis should definitely have its transformation buffs extended by a large amount. For the buffs that they offer, it doesn't make sense for Equinox to have such short buff timers on her transformation, especially since the frame seems to reward not transforming willy-nilly and only when you need a game change (removal of pacify&provoke, mend&maim).

 

Another thing I might add is the focus on power range is too important on Equinox. Pacify and Provoke need good range in order to be effective beyond camping, but increasing range with Overextended reduced power strength which is key to achieve +50% bonus power on provoke, as well as the bonuses Metamorphosis offers. However, build on power strength and range will reduce efficiency which some of Equinox's skills requires tons of energy to maintain, and Fleeting Expertise is needed to counter that effeciency loss, so you end up with a build with min duration. Duration is also needed to make Sleep,Rage,and Metamorphosis buffs last more than a second, but it is impossible to juggle all these requirements and end up with an Equinox that can use all her skills to her full potential, further cementing the need to set up static power ranges and durations for her skills.

 

With that being said, I believe Metamorphosis should offer buffs that last 60 seconds base at max rank. This allows a build with min duration to at least make use of her transformation buffs, albeit not for long. Builds with max duration that utilize Narrow Minded would of course boost Metamorphosis buffs incredibly, but I believe the buffs Metamorphosis offers are minor enough that a max-duration Equinox will be able to play as a permanent tank/damage dealer depending on her form.

 

I also believe Rest and Rage should have a static range of 25 meters. This prevents a Equinox with max power range and duration from locking down an entire room while still having access to a max range Maim, and it allows a max duration Equinox to still be able to use Rest and Rage to great effect.

[PsiWarp]

For Metamorphosis, decaying buffs should go (duration is short enough as is), and at the very least let Natural Talent affect the switch delay.

 

For Rest & Rage, Rest seems OK for a spam-stun skill, Rage could use a tiny stagger effect on enraged enemies, effect radius could be a tiny bit bigger.

 

For Pacify & Provoke, it would be great if their dmg reduction/power strength boost effects lasted on enemies/allies that move out of range for a few seconds, similar to Jet Stream augment for Zephyr's Turbulence. Change Pacify's energy drain into per enemy that enters the aura, not a per second drain. Provoke drain seems fine, you only have teammates to blame if they spam too much :P

 

For Mend & Maim, Mend could use an active effect. Since it heals players, companions AND objectives I can overlook the fact the excess amount of heals goes unused on some wounded targets. Maim seems fine as is.

[Sieg]

 

 

Thank you for the disclosure. It is important that you have access to the frame in question to really discuss it in great detail, but I feel as if you understand exactly the situation Equinox is in.

 

Equinox is indeed meant as a "hybrid" frame. But what exactly does a "hybrid" frame offer in this game? In many MMOs, you have classes that are suited to do one thing, creating what is commonly known as the holy trinity (tank, dps, heal). The focus of this holy trinity is to capitalize on multiple players' strength to create a party composition that is weak individually, but strong as a group. A "hybrid" is an attempt to balance some or all of the strengths of the holy trinity into one character; a mishmash of skills that may or may not work in the hybrid character's favor depending on how they are designed.

 

But does the holy trinity and hybrids have a place in Warframe, a co-op shooter?

 

I think not.

 

As you have stated, Warframe is quite stable. If you have knowledge of a mission and its dangers, you can definitely build a party composition for the mission and have it go the same way every time. For example, Hijack missions with a max range Frost, Loki, and Mag will generally be successful if everyone does their job. Same with Rescue missions with only Limbo needing to be there and everyone else is redundant.

 

This makes hybrid essentially pointless in Warframe, because most frames aren't bound to just CC or just damage boosting. More often than not, a party can make do with what they have by changing the properties of their skills to act as CC or act as damage boosting, like having one Stomp Rhino and one Roar Rhino if there are two in the party.

 

With so many frames that have such good abilities that work together seamlessly, the need for a hybrid that emulates existing skills simply isn't there. Especially when done poorly like Equinox as of now. 

[FelisImpurrator]

*snip*

In other words, they suffer from the "Ember problem" - that being the lack of a stat that can reliably be sacrificed, or at least not maxed, without crippling the entire kit. This is amplified by the fact that Equinox has nearly double the number of existing abilities, so the effect is even more pronounced.

 

I actually like the idea of using fixed durations/ranges, or minimum values like Rhino's Roar, as a means of balancing Equinox. While that removes scalability from some abilities, it opens up more flexibility on others, and for many abilities a particular "sweet spot" for non-scaling properties (except damage, where non-scaling utterly kills things) works perfectly.

 

I quite like the idea of making Metamorphosis one minute at base. Maybe with a minimum of 30 seconds. Although Night's buff needs a little more oomph, because either way it just doesn't stack up to Day's damage and movement no matter what you do (considering how relatively-squishy Equinox is as a caster frame). If you sacrifice other stats to build for duration, it really shouldn't be an issue to keep a buff permanently cycled in. Decaying is the one thing that absolutely needs to go, though.

 

Rest/Rage being fixed is an interesting proposal. I was wondering whether it would be overpowered to simply triple or quadruple their base; a max range build probably would make Rest hideously broken. Although, I wonder too... what if it had a maximum and a minimum range in meters, both higher than the current maximum? So stacking range would work only up to a certain point, but having Narrow Minded and no range mods wouldn't make them completely useless, but it would still be modifiable. Sort of a sanity check on scaling, if you will.

 

On the subject of hybrids versus the holy trinity, though... it's true, the traditional roles don't quite belong. Missions are too predictable, actually, but that's a separate issue. What a hybrid could bring to the table, though, is variety (if executed properly). Not necessary, but a nice and useful option to mix things up - while providing things the current comp might not have. And that's just fine, at least in theory; of course you don't need compositions other than the proven formula to get things done, but it's more interesting not to play that way, and bringing in a frame who can do a little of everything well should pay off in practice.

[----Fenrir----]

summary: So an end-game frame that doesn't scale for end-game content, nor fill a specific Niche. Is this the biggest criticism? If so, have faith DE will scale her up a bit.

 

No, "Maim" actually scales very well since the way the damage counter fills scales with the amount of HP enemies have and the damage you and your teammates do. The problem is that of all 7 skills Maim is currently the only good one. "Provoke" has some limited uses, and even some utility since I noticed you can turn a fast Nova into a more neutral slightly slow Nova with it which is actually useful. "Pacify" has the potential to be useful but badly needs more range.

 

So what people are complaining is that Equinox comes with 7 abilities, more than any other Warframe, yet atm only 2 of those are useful and only one can be considered "good". For comparisson, Mirage for example comes with 4 skills (Eclipse is 2 skills in one) and 3 of those are "good" and only 1 rather questionable in it's usefullness.

 

 

---------------------------

Edit: And after playing Equinox a while longer. I think "Pacify" does not only need more range, but also some changes to how the energy drain scales. Currently it scales with the amount of enemies within the aura, and that drain is HUGE and totally unsustainable without a EV Trinity. Apart from more range, I would like to see the energy drain scaled to the amount of TEAMMATES within it's effect instead so when playing alone the drain would be a lot less.

 

This way to protect a full team would still require a Trinity for the energy drain yet the ability would also be useful when playing solo and would help Equinox immensely when it comes to his survivability in solo play.

Edited August 3, 2015 by ----Fenrir----

[Clowee]

I'm really really liking rest now.

 

Grouped with a Slow Nova, I am able to finisher hit rested targets for 173k per hit using my Scindo Prime.  It's enormous overkill but who cares.

[YasaiTsume]

Yingyang frame is thematically good but Equi needs a solid role. As OP suggested she does too many things but the effects are weak.

Hell i would even suggest a chroma sort of mechanic except Yingyang powers does different shyt when having Melee out or a Gun out. Whatchu guys think.

[seniledark]

I love this frame and she needs a buff, but remember the frame just came out since they kinda rush a little-bit to get U17 out there. So, they may not be done with Equinox as a whole. We will just have to wait and see...

[Landernight]

does maim/mend have a percentage cap? My percentage always resets at 65k(no matter how much power strength) which gets annoying because I'll rush into a crowd thinking I'm about to nuke and I get laughed at.

It does have a percentage cap, and I wish it would just stop storing damage at that point instead of resetting.

[Volinus7]

Tier1(Strong and Easy)

Loki Frost Volt Excal

Tier2(Strong enough but challenging)

Saryn Trinity Ash

Tier3(Strong but weak to nullifier)

Mirage Mesa Chroma

Utility tier

Vauban Nova Oberon Mag(with prenerfed GPull) Nekros Nyx Banshee

Tier4(Can survive under heavy fire but lack good counter)

Limbo Hydroid Rhino Valkyr

Tier5(Greedy tier)

Mag(Gpull nerfed)

Useless tier

Ember Zephyr Equinox

Edited August 3, 2015 by Volinus7