Coptering Vs Parkour 2.0 - How Much Speed Did We Really Lose?

[f3llyn]

So how does the new system fix that? People are still going to play as fast as possible to maximize rewards. New players are still going to be half way back in the map waddling along while the rest of us are just bullet jump+double jump+gliding as fast as humanly possible towards the goal and then the exit. The games evolution hasn't been changed. All that's been changed is coptering is gone, so all the people who think it looked dumb are happy, while wall bunny hopping, aim gliding, and bullet jumping are here looking just as or more silly in my opinion, and the over all pace and feel of the game has been slowed down. Oh, and now it takes an exilus adapter and a few more formas to actually finish a build, which everyone with any interest in efficiency will be using to slot in a bullet jump mod to make themselves faster, but still not as fast as before. But, you can totally get into void vaults real easy, if for some reason you feel the need, and you can hang what ever melee weapon you want on your back and never use it. Or use it while everyone else does the real killing with guns and abilities, your choice. 

 

I never said it would?

 

It's funny because you wrote that big long paragraph addressing an argument I never made. You guys are the ones making the argument that it's not as fast as coptering. Hence the "can't run through a mission in 23 seconds" part of my comment.

 

The only thing that is going to keep people from running through missions as fast as they can is a complete redesign of the games mission structures. But that's a discussion for a different thread.

Edited August 5, 2015 by f3llyn

[ss4chris]

I don't care. Parkour 2.0 is bloody great. Now we are flexible in how we move, instead of trying to race through things as fast as possible, trying to keep up with the rest.

yes because pressing and holding double space and ctrl is flexible.. no its not. and its not efficient.  

 

the old system wasnt a race when everyone could do it.

[ss4chris]

Prepared for this question I recorded some capture runs before the patch, ready to compare them to new runs done with Parkour 2.0. Since capture runs were shortened, I changed plans to simply compare rooms traversed in both runs. Yeah, there's two slow rooms due to having two capture targets in the copter runs, but the new target takes longer to capture, so it should not have that big of an impact.

 

I'm using a Frost in both videos, with no speed/parkour mods whatsoever. Why? He's a slow frame without mobility skills, and that's where coptering helped the most, it's what helped keep up with the fast ones. And why no speed/parkour mods? Obviously since it would compromise your build. Compromising your melee for better coptering was basically the main complaint in the old system, so compromising your warframe build isn't an option. We have the exilus slot now, but the thing is either painfully slow and lots of work, or a straight up plat purchase - I don't feel like that should be a requirement to get back a little speed (which will still be subpar).

 

Just to be clear: This is just a comparison on how quickly we can traverse maps. Other advantages/disadvantages between the old and new system are irrelevant for this.

 

bravo.

 

this clearly shows how slow and inefficient  the new  movement system is..

 

Eventually everyone will get tired of the system and enough where the white knighters who claim this is a great system is drowned out.

[Chub_N_Tuck]

bravo.

 

this clearly shows how slow and inefficient  the new  movement system is..

 

Eventually everyone will get tired of the system and enough where the white knighters who claim this is a great system is drowned out.

 

Well, not everyone thinks your way. Your definition of "inefficient" clearly is less speed, by which you rush through things in exterminate and capture. But is that everything in Warframe? Is it so much valuable than anything?

 

The community doesn't have an uniformal opinion where they will "eventually get tired of the system." You seem to hate it a lot.

 

Although, I don't have key bindings as default, as I have changed things a bit every since I started. So I wouldn't know how it is in default, but I have really no problem pressing buttons since you don't press sprint in every slides or parkour 2.0 motions.

[izzatuw]

I use the default key bindings just fine actually...

Edited August 5, 2015 by izzatuw

[Buzkyl]

bravo.

 

this clearly shows how slow and inefficient  the new  movement system is..

 

Eventually everyone will get tired of the system and enough where the white knighters who claim this is a great system is drowned out.

 

 

1.OP did not aimglide which increases distance considerably nor was OP even trying to chain jumps, just double and and bullet jumps

 

2.OP did not use any parkour oriented mods

 

3.OP used Tipedo for coptering, which was the best coptering weapon available vs the dragon nikana that he used in new which back then has a horrible copter

 

 

TL;DR- Skewed results in copter favour, moving on.

[TheyCallMeGunny]

I started this game way back in closed beta at the very beginning. Then I went unplugged for over 2 years, and I only came back a week ago. So I wasn't used to coptering when they rolled out Parkour 2.0- thus my opinion is that of a new player (which, being in perpetual beta, we will have a ton of them as the game gets better): And IMO, Parkour 2.0 kicks &#!.

[Dunkingmachine]

 

Melee is horrible. And... what's that guy using? A HEAVY melee weapon? Lol, you can't even copter with that toy.

 

That's my video, and I'm also one of the "crybabies" who wants his speed back. This is a solo video and thus does not show the problems you'll have with the heavy melees in group play, which is enemies dropping dead before you can even reach them. Nothing about this has changed with parkour 2.0, your bullet jump is not faster than an actual bullet. And even the Scindo Prime with Berserker + Warcry was fast enough to copter to some extent. And with base attack speed, you could always just chain frontflip+air melee for a speed boost on parkour 2.0 level.

 

The u17 changes were a nerf to melee gameplay, not a buff. Coptering was the perfekt gap closer, fast, made you immune to CC, opened with a nice chunk of damage. Now that bullet jump thing? It's slower, lifts you into the air so you can't chain your combo, does not provide CC immunity (I've gotten knocked down / grabbed during it way too often already), does no damage. It does not weave into melee gameplay at all.

 

 

Well, not everyone thinks your way. Your definition of "inefficient" clearly is less speed, by which you rush through things in exterminate and capture. But is that everything in Warframe? Is it so much valuable than anything?

 

Yeah, only exterminate and capture.

 

... and getting to the next drill in excavation

... and rushing to the next terminal in md

... and rushing to the caches/gate in sab

... and rushing to the next life support capsule in survival, because you once again didn't check the timer

... and rushing to the boss in any assassination

... and rushing to revive a teammate who got downed a little farther away, in any mission

 

Speed dominates warframe, the completion time of every mission where you don't sit on your &#! the whole time (= def, int) is dictated by speed, you nerf the speed, you increase the grind.

[RedDirtTrooper]

My reading comprehension is fine. You wrote that Parkour 2 made "all melee weapons equally bad" and that melee weapons are "ornamental toys" without coptering. Don't backpedal and try to make it look as if "inherently inferior" is the only thing you wrote. Now, please explain how a weapon that can be used to solo T4S until 1h 10min is bad.

Because it wasn't the weapon. It was a Valkyr with ungodly armor, high health, rage, and quick thinking. The only part the weapon played was in having a life stealing mod on it. And yes, all melee weapons are equally bad, as in inferior to using your guns in every objectively measurable way but ammo efficiency.

[izzatuw]

Hopefully the game will add wallrunning back.

[TheyCallMeGunny]

Correction: I said I love Parkour 2.0... I forgot about the new wallrunning: I hate that. Everything else, to me, is an upgrade. I can deal with the speed I lost (as I said, I was not a copter pro.)

[ralphusmaximus]

As a newer player, I started out with a Skana for my starter melee.  I got along fine for several missions until I hit a wall where I couldn't reach a high point to locate a cache in the void.  No matter what I did, I couldn't reach it with Parkour 1.0 with my Skana.  I took to YouTube to see how people moved around to reach high spots.  Turns out I needed a Bo to vault my way up.  So I spent the few credits I had on a mk 1 Bo and finished the mission.  I had to switch my playstyle to finish a mission in a game that is supposed to have a lot of freedom of movement.
 

Parkour 1.0 was not a good gateway for new players.  It limits people who want to keep up with veterans and complete missions and find hidden areas.  New players want to come in and play the game and still have the freedom to play as they wish.  Parkour 2.0 will allow people to play as they wish, have mobility regardless of weapon choice.  Move slowly through a tileset because they are still collecting mods they need to farm, or speeding through to get to a new mission set.

Parkour 2.0 maybe a blow to speedrunners because now you are a few seconds slower.  But think of it this way.  Now the new players can stay with the group instead of getting mobbed to death because the veterans 'copter away to the exit leaving the new guy in the dust because he wanted to use a sword instead of bo.  Now you don't have to keep coming back to revive us.

[RedDirtTrooper]

Besides, the new parkour system is comparable in speed to the old one, you just need to get used to it; and you can use your favorite chopstick !

^This is where your argument breaks down. I have no problem with the old system being gone. I have no problem with people wanting to flail at monsters with their foam weapon/chopstick/pillow of choice as I'm guilty of the same on occasion. The problem I have is that the new system is slower. It's a simple system, I use it fine, and it's slower. I don't need to get used to it, there's nothing to learn, and it's slower. It also has this strange slow motion floating feel to it, like all our warframes are hollow, that I happen to find extremely distasteful. So it is slower, and it feels slower because of the weird floatiness. I don't want the old system back, I want the new system rebalanced with a proper feeling of weight and inertia, and I'd like them to speed up horizontal movement while they're at it, since the lack of it has slowed the pace of the entire game. So you'd still be able to use your chopstick of choice, only the game would flow properly again. Everybody wins.

[ranks21]

tell me which game a new player can keep up with a veteran player>>> and you dont need to use a melee weapon to reach anywhere in the void you need smarts enough to use wall climbing.. this new system has more negatives than positives and that is a fact. even hacking a console will crash the game.

 

 using the new system to jump forward in a straight line will not happen with this floating upward mechanics it has and 9/10 times you end up above a doorway stuck to the wall the very same thing many claimed coptering does such irony.

 

 melee outright sux now with no momentum whatsoever and please for the love of video games stop talking about freedom of movement it was and has always been there stop using it as an excuse for bad mechanics.

 

 to sum up how bad this p2.0 is they had to make additional mods just to make it seem less bad. the very thing they left out ( speed, momentum and range) are now in mods and an extra slot. thats backwards if you ask any sane person.

[Chub_N_Tuck]

Yeah, only exterminate and capture.

 

... and getting to the next drill in excavation

... and rushing to the next terminal in md

... and rushing to the caches/gate in sab

... and rushing to the next life support capsule in survival, because you once again didn't check the timer

... and rushing to the boss in any assassination

... and rushing to revive a teammate who got downed a little farther away, in any mission

 

Speed dominates warframe, the completion time of every mission where you don't sit on your ! the whole time (= def, int) is dictated by speed, you nerf the speed, you increase the grind.

You are one of the people who rush through everything and don't care about dynamic gameplay when killing enemies. You don't actually need that speed for the grind when your objective isn't about speed. The game doesn't revolve around speed. Your gameplay does.

 

I see how you're getting supports though, since there are a lot like you out there. Parkour 2.0 does provide a lot of momentum with air glide followed by another jump, and it doesn't do a bad job of rushing. If you really think parkour 2.0 is sitting on your ! the whole time, that's a gross exaggeration. Have you actually tried rushing in parkour 2.0?

 

I consider it a trade off. Parkour 2.0 reduced overall only the extreme speed of Warframe, that is coptering, but increased the overall speed as it doesn't require certain melee weapons. If you master the mechanics and know how the new momentum works in the game, you can rush things fast, although slower than the maximum speed before. It requires more skill. But at the same time, there's more depth in mid-air combat and how to kill things. Those were the things you couldn't do in the old system. It just becomes a different game. The old parkour warframe and the new parkour warframe are two different games now.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Chuck_NoMiss

[f3llyn]

I realize it's the name of the thread but the focus shouldn't be on speed. It should be about evolving the game and making it better.

 

As far as that goes coptering was dead. And how fanatically people are defending it proves DE could never have made any adjustments to it. That and the fact that the first time they tried to change it they got whined at so much that they undid the changes they were trying to make.

 

So they either had to leave everything as it was leaving the game in a stale, stagnant, and unfun and mechanically shallow state or throw it out in the trash and try something new.

 

They tried something new. So it would really do wonders if everyone started making suggestions about how to improve the new system instead of arguing about how the old one is supposedly so much better. That really doesn't serve any purpose anymore because DE isn't going to bring it back a second time. Not after how much time and resources they've put into this new thing.

Edited August 5, 2015 by f3llyn

[ranks21]

no one is stating the old system should come back. we just want the momentum and speed to be on par with the old system. we want the free fluidity that we had before and not this sticky floaty cheerleader's ribbon twirling mechanics that in place.

 

 we also get it that many of you sucked in the old system and this one suits you very well but that still isnt detering the issues at hand that it takes too much to do the simple things and  it didnt solve anything rather made alot more worse.

 

 yes we love speed, yes we loved the momentum the game had and we sure as hell loved the front/backflips. the old slide attacks was much better in melee also the jump attacks even the wall running was much smoother than this bunny hopping place holder.

 

 but the biggest insanity is the bullet jump+ aim and glide to get any reasonable distance when a forward flip couldve and had been sufficient. and even with the aim and glide you now need a mod to make it usefull. so in theory those who don't have these new parkour mods still cant  keep up with the crowd== redundant and problem still not solved.

[f3llyn]

no one is stating the old system should come back. we just want the momentum and speed to be on par with the old system. we want the free fluidity that we had before and not this sticky floaty cheerleader's ribbon twirling mechanics that in place.

 

 we also get it that many of you sucked in the old system and this one suits you very well but that still isnt detering the issues at hand that it takes too much to do the simple things and  it didnt solve anything rather made alot more worse.

 

 yes we love speed, yes we loved the momentum the game had and we sure as hell loved the front/backflips. the old slide attacks was much better in melee also the jump attacks even the wall running was much smoother than this bunny hopping place holder.

 

 but the biggest insanity is the bullet jump+ aim and glide to get any reasonable distance when a forward flip couldve and had been sufficient. and even with the aim and glide you now need a mod to make it usefull. so in theory those who don't have these new parkour mods still cant  keep up with the crowd== redundant and problem still not solved.

 

Actually some people are asking for coptering back.

[ComfyOlivia]

A handful of problems with the OP's video.

1) He stops to fight enemies in both videos. Those are skewing factors considering each mission could have had different enemies and differing enemy counts. If you wanted to do a straight speed test, all enemies should have been avoided.

2) Considering Melees were the focus of the old movement system as far as speed went, you should have made an accurate comparison and brought the Tipedo with the exact same build to the mission.

3) Parkour 1.0 and Coptering are both things you have been using for over a year at least (guesstimation based on your acount being made in 2013). This video was uploaded 2 days after Parkour 2.0 was released. 2 days experience doesn't come anywhere near 365 days+.

4) You used the Staple weapon of choice for Coptering, but you did not even utilize all of Parkour 2.0. This alone already put coptering at an advantage.

Now on to my actual comment.

Coptering has and always will be that one abused system that wasn't even meant to be in the game and only existed as long as it did because DE didn't want to piss off too many people.

Sorry, but complaining about not having an unbalanced factor in the game anymore is like complaining about losing the ability to farm Viver after they nerfed its insane drop rates. It's a factor that DE didn't mean to make it in to the game and made things unbalanced. The only difference was that Parkour 1.0 didn't have anything to compete with it.

Now that Parkour 2.0 has released and can compete with the speed and fluidity, they felt it was enough to finally remove coptering.

Now, it sucks that the copter fanatics have lost some of the speed, but you folks were on borrowed time that you shouldn't have gotten in the first place.

Movement should have always been based on your knowledge of the movement system and then very slightly how fast your frame is.

Now, it is. Now, people who are new to the game can play and learn the system and keep up to people who would rather speed through the game. People no longer have to be left behind because they didn't have the Tipedo. Now, it's all up to your skill with the system.

So, learn how to use the system and figure it out. You didn't lose your speed, you just ran out of time.

Edited August 5, 2015 by CoRRh

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

-snip-

The people who were complaining about coptering are still getting left behind because they lack the skill to keep up in P2. Keeping up full momentum os mure button/skill intensive in P2 than coptering ever was.

[ComfyOlivia]

The people who were complaining about coptering are still getting left behind because they lack the skill to keep up in P2. Keeping up full momentum os mure button/skill intensive in P2 than coptering ever was.

The button movements can be learnt. Coptering made them lazy, not handicapped skillwise.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

The button movements can be learnt. Coptering made them lazy, not handicapped skillwise.

People who lacked the skill to copter definitely won't be able to keep up under the new system.

[S3EK3R]

People who lacked the skill to copter definitely won't be able to keep up under the new system.

You mean ppl who lacked the correct melee weapon?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

You mean ppl who lacked the correct melee weapon?

No, I mean the people that whined because they were bad at it.  I used a D. Nikana during the coptering era.

[ComfyOlivia]

You mean ppl who lacked the correct melee weapon?

This is pretty much what I would have said. Coptering wasn't a question of skill. It was a question of getting the right weapon and then stealing a build. That's pretty much it.

As for those who coptered, it will take time for them to get used to movement that doesn't include a melee weapon. Just because they coptered doesn't mean they are completely unable to learn Parkour 2.0.