Why I've Lost Trust In De

[Eerie_Iri]

At the moment, Warframe is not a game I would spend money on. It's a fantastic game, polished in many aspects, with a significant and mostly friendly community. The game is receiving constant updates with plenty of new content, and it's overall a fun experience. There are 2 things that keep this game from being my absolute favourite game and one that I'd happily spend money on: How DE responds to negative feedback, and how DE responds to players finding workarounds to issues with the game.

When it comes to the community, DE is good at including community content in the game (Design Council, Blade and Gun Challenges, etc) and talking to the community (Developers are active on the forums, Devstreams/Prime Times). The problem is that DE doesn't listen to the community when the community disagrees with a proposed change. Both the Pilfering Swarm and Exalted Blade + Augment changes have been good examples of this:

    - In both cases, DE made a thread announcing the changes ahead of time. This means they had time to review the community's feedback.
    - In both cases, a significant number of people disagreed with how DE was responding to the change. Both threads reached upwards of 10 pages with most of the posts talking about how these changes would negatively affect the game.
    - In both cases, despite having time to review community feedback and having a massive amount of negative feedback sent to them, DE implemented the changes anyway.
    
It's not hard to see how this would discourage a member of the community from wanting to play the game or spend money on it. Exalted Blade working with augments was an interesting interaction that people in the community capitalized on. By the time DE decided to change this interaction, it was a part of the meta and players liked how it worked. The next time an interesting interaction like this shows up, players will be more reluctant to use it for fear of it getting nerfed or removed in the near future. That, coupled with the fact that DE just ignored what a large portion of the community said, results in a lot less trust in DE.

Nitresco's posts sum up how the average player feels when they take the time to write up a well thought out response to a change, see loads of people supporting their response and disagreeing with the proposed change, and then see the change implimented anyways against the wishes of the community.

Nitresco's response to the EB changes:
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/511036-pc-psa-covert-lethality-exalted-blade-changes/?p=5705370
Nitresco's post after EB changes were implimented:
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/511036-pc-psa-covert-lethality-exalted-blade-changes/?p=5741197

Also, despite a popular rumor that's been going around, Exalted Blade being affected by augments was not a bug. DE listed that they added an interaction between Exalted Blade and melee augments in the Hotfix 16.9.4 changelog: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/479235-hotfix-1694/

This was not a case of players abusing a bug, this was players using something exactly as the developers intended, and then the developers pulled the rug out from under them a few updates later, just after everyone had enough time to start utilizing this feature fully and incorporate it into the meta.

The major reason the community didn't want Pilfering Swarm to be nerfed was because it let people obtain loot easier. Warframe's loot drop tables have always been ridiculously skewed, making obtaining a specific mod/resource/prime part/etc time consuming and not fun. Pilfering Swarm with high strength was a workaround that not only allowed players to have somewhat of a solution to this issue, it gave a very underused and disliked warframe a use.

 

DE's nerf of Pilfering Swarm is a good symbol of DE's reaction to players finding ways to subvert bugs and issues with the game: even if it hurts the end user experience, they'll make things work the way they want it to. This isn't the first time that this sort of change has happened, either: Players used Greedy Pull to pull invisible Syndicate Medallions. DE removed the ability for GPull to pull medallions without ever fixing the invisible medallion issue.

This sort of disregard for the community is why I can't justify spending money on this game, or recommending it to friends without a lengthy disclaimer.

[Dualstar]

Balance changes happen, life goes on.

 

And with any luck, Peacemaker will be next.

[AdunSaveMe]

-DE tells people they'll be fixing UNWANTED effects on an ability

-A bunch of people say they shouldn't, just because

-They do it anyway, because they were considered UNWANTED

 

People overreacted about the pilfering swarm change and greedy pull was ruining mag.

 

Ultimately, it's their game, and if the playerbase had their way we'd have no balance. There is literally no reason for them to ever listen to their community or even bother announcing changes ahead of time, but they do both things more than is expected.

 

I'm still going to recommend this game to people, because it's fun.

[TenguBlade]

If you don't like the game, why spend money on it?  I'm MR 11 and I've been playing this game for about a year now.  You don't have to spend money to get anything currently available in this game.  Meaning that excludes Excalibur Prime and closed beta stuff.  Event weapons you can't get by paying (not directly at least) anyway.

 

Not spending money on a game is a personal problem.  Whether you think it's necessary doesn't mean anything.  You chose to put money in.  DE didn't force you to do anything; if you can't deal with a grindwall, that's a personal issue, not a problem with the game, because a grindwall can be broken, either by trading (which you can earn plat for by grinding prime parts/syndicate standing) or just outright grinding.

Edited August 20, 2015 by TenguBlade

[(PSN)theelix]

If you don't like the game, why spend money on it?  I'm MR 11 and I've been playing this game for about a year now.  You don't have to spend money to get anything currently available in this game.  Meaning that excludes Excalibur Prime and closed beta stuff.  Event weapons you can't get by paying (not directly at least) anyway.

 

Not spending money on a game is a personal problem.  Whether you think it's necessary doesn't mean anything.  You chose to put money in.  DE didn't force you to do anything; if you can't deal with a grindwall, that's a personal issue, not a problem with the game, because a grindwall can be broken, either by trading (which you can earn plat for by grinding prime parts/syndicate standing) or just outright grinding.

Did not read full thread.

[mikey24356]

If you don't like the game, why spend money on it?  I'm MR 11 and I've been playing this game for about a year now.  You don't have to spend money to get anything currently available in this game.  Meaning that excludes Excalibur Prime and closed beta stuff.  Event weapons you can't get by paying (not directly at least) anyway.

 

Not spending money on a game is a personal problem.  Whether you think it's necessary doesn't mean anything.  You chose to put money in.  DE didn't force you to do anything; if you can't deal with a grindwall, that's a personal issue, not a problem with the game, because a grindwall can be broken, either by trading (which you can earn plat for by grinding prime parts/syndicate standing) or just outright grinding.

Should read the full thread next time.

[HalotroopermanX7]

So... just because DE (capable of making their own decisions) should listen to what the community says no to? (or in general anything that the community tells DE?) 

People should be aware of what will happen if/when they invest into the game they need to know this; things will change*, and things will change in Warframe regardless of what the player base will say; DE acknowledges feedback, but that doesn't mean that they'll actually follow up with what the feedback points at.

 

Edit: *unless in specific conditions, they say they won't change (ex: Excalibur Prime being founders only) 

Edited August 20, 2015 by HalotroopermanX7

[TheBrsrkr]

All that "feedback".......wasn't. You saw WHY the changes were needed. P Swarm only allowed Hydroid to actually kill if you wanted loot. EB working with syndicate mods mean that they were the best choice, killing diversity. G pull was forcing every player to center around Mag. When it came time for change, there was outcry, yes. But what did you say, Don't do it because it's balanced? Don't do it because it's actually not a problem? Don't do it because it doesn't break the game? No.It's don't do it because I'm not as EFFICIENT. Don't do it because I don't like nerfs. Don't do it because it doesn't affect me negatively, and those who are negatively affected are whiners. These are not good enough reasons.

[Dualstar]

I just realised i should have noticed this.

 

DE removed the ability for GPull to pull medallions without ever fixing the invisible medallion issue.

 

That was fixed in 17.1.5.

 

Or at least i havent found any invisible ones since.

[Stefe]

Players who have played since the game's inception have dealt with many changes that they might not necessarily agree on (Iron Skin nerf, Molecular Prime tweak, removal of charge attacks, Acrid's dethroning, etc.) And you know what happened? They dealt with it and jumped onto the next bandwagon adapted.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

The average players as usually called, doesn't care about balance or the well being of the game, but simply their own enjoyment.

Does that mean DE should never listen to them? It doesn't, but in some cases DE has to do something against their wishes, Excal change is one of those cases. DE made the change of weapon specific mods applying to EB, but then it was going against what they are trying to do in U17 so they removed it, that's about it.

The Change to Pilfering Swarm made the augment better at any level and not just low levels, but in trade they had to tone down the amount of drops that people get from it. That isn't a nerf, it's a balancing change and there's nothing wrong with it. If the loot tables are a problem, people have to make a good point about why X or Y should be changed, rather than being Salty when DE changes an augment mod to make it more useful without making it completely broken.

 

The developer should listen to the players and try to use that feedback when making new content and changing already existing content, but the developer isn't obliged to make every change that every player wants.

 

People should listen to what Vay Hek says more often. Some times, Sacrifices have to be made, and some times DE isn't going to please everyone, but perhaps that for the best in the long run (in Excal's and Hydroid's case, it is). It's pretty sad when something pretty much invalidates older/other content, "there's no reason to use X or Y because Excal kills everything!", that's just sad.

 

 

 

On a side note, Greedy Pull was ruining Mag. People didn't want Mag for what Mag did, but because she was being a bigger carrier that had more range, that's not what Mag is supposed to be (Mag does actually need some tweaks/changes or full blown rework, people will cry, again, but she really needs it).

Edited August 20, 2015 by Sorrow0110

[FelisImpurrator]

You do realize the main reason we can't have rebalanced grind is in large part because of the abusive loopholes used to skip grind? Because if they made drop rates fair, people would be rolling in even more disproportionate quantities of loot for the same no-effort methods (See also: Draco and Ophelia multiplied several times over.)

 

As for invisible medallions, they're clearly trying to address the root cause, or already have. Which is an attitude I wish they'd have the opportunity to apply to the grind, but in between managing community salt and plugging the exploits, I can't imagine they can find that time in a team of ~200.

All that "feedback".......wasn't. You saw WHY the changes were needed. P Swarm only allowed Hydroid to actually kill if you wanted loot. EB working with syndicate mods mean that they were the best choice, killing diversity. G pull was forcing every player to center around Mag. When it came time for change, there was outcry, yes. But what did you say, Don't do it because it's balanced? Don't do it because it's actually not a problem? Don't do it because it doesn't break the game? No.It's don't do it because I'm not as EFFICIENT. Don't do it because I don't like nerfs. Don't do it because it doesn't affect me negatively, and those who are negatively affected are whiners. These are not good enough reasons.

Basically this. The number of "Please keep Pilfering Swarm the way it is!" threads vastly outweighed the "Please make Hydroid viable!" threads. That says something about Community Feedback.

[(PSN)theelix]

I just realised i should have noticed this.

 

 

That was fixed in 17.1.5.

 

Or at least i havent found any invisible ones since.

That was actually solved by a PSA WAAAAY before. Cosmetics were causing them to be invisible, so being SWaggyMCfabulous was detrimental.

 

^{_{I am very guilty of being SwaggyMCFabulous.}}

[Ov3rd0se]

I love all the fanboy hate, but it won't really change the fact that this game is becoming more and more tedious and boring.

[Dualstar]

That was actually solved by a PSA WAAAAY before. Cosmetics were causing them to be invisible, so being SWaggyMCfabulous was detrimental.

 

_{^{I am very guilty of being SwaggyMCFabulous.}}

I cant say it affected me much anyway, i has pretty much learned where to find most medallions by the time that bug started making the rounds, and loot radar still tracked them so it was all good.

 

Even after U17 brought in all those new loot crates all that changed was i started sweeping with the Atomos to wipe out all the false positives.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Dualstar

[Draviant]

-DE tells people they'll be fixing UNWANTED effects on an ability

-A bunch of people say they shouldn't, just because

-They do it anyway, because they were considered UNWANTED

 

People overreacted about the pilfering swarm change and greedy pull was ruining mag.

 

Ultimately, it's their game, and if the playerbase had their way we'd have no balance. There is literally no reason for them to ever listen to their community or even bother announcing changes ahead of time, but they do both things more than is expected.

 

I'm still going to recommend this game to people, because it's fun.

 

Yeah....the problem it's our game as well. We play it, we pay platinum on it to enjoy OURSELVES.

 

The least they could do is explaining why they see this changes so bad to the point to hit them with the nerf-hammer, ignoring most of the comunity.

 

EDIT: To those who says "They did this because the augments kills diversity".....HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA

 

Diversity with melee weapons.....in Warframe....oh boy.....

Edited August 20, 2015 by Draviant

[MumblesMcphatty]

If you can't see why any of those issues had to change - you don't have any feedback worth listening to.

[funtimehippie]

delete

Edited August 26, 2015 by funtimehippie

[TheBrsrkr]

soooo if at one point the aguments were intentional since it got a specifc hotfix, so does that mean our promise with de that the intended not to erase accounts can be brought back to debate and the desicion can be changed. so in reality anything can be brought back to debate and can change..

When did DE promise to never ever change syndicate mods now?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Also, despite a popular rumor that's been going around, Exalted Blade being affected by augments was not a bug. DE listed that they added an interaction between Exalted Blade and melee augments in the Hotfix 16.9.4 changelog: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/479235-hotfix-1694/

 

+1

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

The average players as usually called, doesn't care about balance or the well being of the game, but simply their own enjoyment.

Yes, that's the deal. You make me enjoy myself, and I give you money for it. 

[Solarboy_Luis]

At least DE isn't like Nexon or Perfectworld and there is communication between DE and the players. And just because one small, little, tiny thing changed and that caused you to lose trust in DE, probably means you shouldn't trust anyone at all.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Solarboy_Luis

[NalkorRN]

-DE tells people they'll be fixing UNWANTED effects on an ability

-A bunch of people say they shouldn't, just because

-They do it anyway, because they were considered UNWANTED

 

People overreacted about the pilfering swarm change and greedy pull was ruining mag.

 

Ultimately, it's their game, and if the playerbase had their way we'd have no balance. There is literally no reason for them to ever listen to their community or even bother announcing changes ahead of time, but they do both things more than is expected.

 

I'm still going to recommend this game to people, because it's fun.

It's not their game, it's our's. It's their product yes, but it is their job to ensure we have fun playing with their product, our game. Being a game developer company for a game like Warframe (online, co-op, etc) is less about normal Single Player offline game stuff and more similar to being a Dungeon Master/Game Master/Story Teller for a Tabletop game. Yes, you set it all up, house rules, setting, etc, but in the end, you're a host throwing a certain brand of party to ensure your guests are enjoying themselves. If they don't like it, they'll leave and tell their friends via social media and word of mouth and eventually, no one will want to play the game you've set up.

 

They developed this game not for them to play, as many livestreams in the past and previous design choices show they either suck hard at playing their own game, or they just don't play it with efficiency in mind.

 

Oh wait a second, I think I see another Extra Credits video that's once again, relevant:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/117870-i-find-myself-becoming-more-and-more-bitter-as-the-days-progress/

 

A number of issues brought up in that old thread are still very relevant these days. Some have changed and been addressed (Vor's Prize was a damn joke for like, a year or so), but others have simply gotten worse.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

. . . just because one small, little, tiny thing changed and that caused you to lose trust in DE . . .

It's not a small little thing. It is the continuous inconsistency, and them going back on their own statements, that caused it.

[Darkmoone1]

It's not a small little thing. It is the continuous inconsistency, and them going back on their own statements, that caused it.

Going back on what statements exactly? What is inconsistent? Do you allude to more than what the OP's current subject is about?