Why I've Lost Trust In De

[Onisa]

When did DE promise to never ever change syndicate mods now?

You've misread.

 

DE went out of their way to make augments work with EB because that's how they wanted it to be (at the time).

If DE can flip flop so easily on this subject, what else could they decide to change their minds on?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Going back on what statements exactly? What is inconsistent? Do you allude to more than what the OP's current subject is about?

A lot, but see this for a specific example:

 

Also, despite a popular rumor that's been going around, Exalted Blade being affected by augments was not a bug. DE listed that they added an interaction between Exalted Blade and melee augments in the Hotfix 16.9.4 changelog: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/479235-hotfix-1694/

 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

At the moment, Warframe is not a game I would spend money on. It's a fantastic game, polished in many aspects, with a significant and mostly friendly community. The game is receiving constant updates with plenty of new content, and it's overall a fun experience. There are 2 things that keep this game from being my absolute favourite game and one that I'd happily spend money on: How DE responds to negative feedback, and how DE responds to players finding workarounds to issues with the game.

When it comes to the community, DE is good at including community content in the game (Design Council, Blade and Gun Challenges, etc) and talking to the community (Developers are active on the forums, Devstreams/Prime Times). The problem is that DE doesn't listen to the community when the community disagrees with a proposed change. Both the Pilfering Swarm and Exalted Blade + Augment changes have been good examples of this:

    - In both cases, DE made a thread announcing the changes ahead of time. This means they had time to review the community's feedback.

    - In both cases, a significant number of people disagreed with how DE was responding to the change. Both threads reached upwards of 10 pages with most of the posts talking about how these changes would negatively affect the game.

    - In both cases, despite having time to review community feedback and having a massive amount of negative feedback sent to them, DE implemented the changes anyway.

    

It's not hard to see how this would discourage a member of the community from wanting to play the game or spend money on it. Exalted Blade working with augments was an interesting interaction that people in the community capitalized on. By the time DE decided to change this interaction, it was a part of the meta and players liked how it worked. The next time an interesting interaction like this shows up, players will be more reluctant to use it for fear of it getting nerfed or removed in the near future. That, coupled with the fact that DE just ignored what a large portion of the community said, results in a lot less trust in DE.

Nitresco's posts sum up how the average player feels when they take the time to write up a well thought out response to a change, see loads of people supporting their response and disagreeing with the proposed change, and then see the change implimented anyways against the wishes of the community.

Nitresco's response to the EB changes:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/511036-pc-psa-covert-lethality-exalted-blade-changes/?p=5705370

Nitresco's post after EB changes were implimented:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/511036-pc-psa-covert-lethality-exalted-blade-changes/?p=5741197

Also, despite a popular rumor that's been going around, Exalted Blade being affected by augments was not a bug. DE listed that they added an interaction between Exalted Blade and melee augments in the Hotfix 16.9.4 changelog: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/479235-hotfix-1694/

This was not a case of players abusing a bug, this was players using something exactly as the developers intended, and then the developers pulled the rug out from under them a few updates later, just after everyone had enough time to start utilizing this feature fully and incorporate it into the meta.

The major reason the community didn't want Pilfering Swarm to be nerfed was because it let people obtain loot easier. Warframe's loot drop tables have always been ridiculously skewed, making obtaining a specific mod/resource/prime part/etc time consuming and not fun. Pilfering Swarm with high strength was a workaround that not only allowed players to have somewhat of a solution to this issue, it gave a very underused and disliked warframe a use.

 

DE's nerf of Pilfering Swarm is a good symbol of DE's reaction to players finding ways to subvert bugs and issues with the game: even if it hurts the end user experience, they'll make things work the way they want it to. This isn't the first time that this sort of change has happened, either: Players used Greedy Pull to pull invisible Syndicate Medallions. DE removed the ability for GPull to pull medallions without ever fixing the invisible medallion issue.

This sort of disregard for the community is why I can't justify spending money on this game, or recommending it to friends without a lengthy disclaimer.

You can disagree with DE's vision for balance and business-model success. But couching it as THE reason why you won't reward DE for a value-filled F2P game just comes across as cheap and entitled to me. Making it wordy only reinforces my stance.

You don't want to spend money but don't want to appear cheap so you rip one of the most open relationships any developer has with it's fanbase? Then posting this was a bad idea IMHO and you open yourself up to equal criticism. PILF and GREEDY were fun, just like "double x" weekends, but it's a slippery slope that speeds up accomplishment to the detriment of Warframe being financially successful enough to allow F2P in the first place. Some don't see that.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

Yes, that's the deal. You make me enjoy myself, and I give you money for it. 

 

 

The money of a few isn't quite the same thing as the money of many. A broken game won't generate that much money and won't keep as many players, not to mention that those who can just buy 2 slots and run Excal to do everything because he's broken, aren't going to bring in much money, sadly, games are a business as well, and as far as enjoyment can go, some things have to go. What's the point in having all the content when people can just grab Excal and kill everything? If he's breaking the game, he needs to be fixed, and it was, and as much as people try to say that it wasn't broken they are simply lying to get across a faux argument because it's all about their bellybutton, and the game isn't about them and not specially made for them. Not even Jesus pleased everyone, and it's certainly not DE that will do so.

 

If you want to go mindlessly kill things without any effort, go play garry's mod or something, you can do whatever you want in there.

[TheBrsrkr]

You've misread.

DE went out of their way to make augments work with EB because that's how they wanted it to be (at the time).

If DE can flip flop so easily on this subject, what else could they decide to change their minds on?

You know, maybe you should look at the reasons behind the change. It was a quite simple choice, really. Gimp the syndicate augs, or everything that isn't one.

[funtimehippie]

When did DE promise to never ever change syndicate mods now?

it was intendid at one point sometimes you hope to trust but then it gets crushed. it wasnt "promised". but so wasnt account wipe.. it was just wasnt planned at the time and so it has just a good of chance happening has the excal change :p soo we are all doomed

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Devstream_20

at 1:08:38 steve mentions account reset isnt planed, doesnt mean it cant change...

so their has never been a promise of anything so our accounts have that chance if they want to go back to debateing they can and we will have to just suck it up as to the ppl saying get over the excalinerf

[TheBrsrkr]

it was intendid at one point sometimes you hope to trust but then it gets crushed. it wasnt "promised". but so wasnt account wipe.. it was just wasnt planned at the time and so it has just a good of chance happening has the excal change :p soo we are all doomed

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Devstream_20

at 1:08:38 steve mentions account reset isnt planed, doesnt mean it cant change...

so their has never been a promise of anything so our accounts have that chance if they want to go back to debateing they can and we will have to just suck it up as to the ppl saying get over the excalinerf

Why? Everyone keeps forgetting WHY these things changed. It was intended that the syndicate mods work on EB. It WASN'T intended that they form a clear best choice that kills all weapon diversity. The effect the augment had on the game was unintended, and therefore changed. Why is this a big deal?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

The money of a few isn't quite the same thing as the money of many.

A broken game that is fun will make way more money than a mechanically perfect game that is boring.

 

They also removed the purpose in using several weapons with this patch. That means people can sell those weapons. That means they have more free slots. That means they have even less reason to buy more slots. Ergo, less money for DE.

 

 

it was intendid at one point sometimes you hope to trust but then it gets crushed. it wasnt "promised". but so wasnt account wipe.. it was just wasnt planned at the time and so it has just a good of chance happening has the excal change :p soo we are all doomed

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Devstream_20

at 1:08:38 steve mentions account reset isnt planed, doesnt mean it cant change...

so their has never been a promise of anything so our accounts have that chance if they want to go back to debateing they can and we will have to just suck it up as to the ppl saying get over the excalinerf

If they ever do an account wipe, I will quit the game forever.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

You've misread.

 

DE went out of their way to make augments work with EB because that's how they wanted it to be (at the time).

If DE can flip flop so easily on this subject, what else could they decide to change their minds on?

They didn't flip flop, at first there was no data, only applying changes. After the changes are done and data is collected they saw that it wasn't a good thing for the game, therefore they removed it.

And as much as they can test, their data pile will always be much smaller than what the players can generate, and that's why we even have a feedback subforum, it's because nothing is set in stone and they need our input (but not our selfish wishes).

 

 

 

Edit: They removed the reason of only using 3 series of weapons to allow people to use any weapon they like. It made building Excal more fair and in a way that doesn't limit choices as much.

It also didn't give a purpose in using several weapons as you say, because you only needed one of them anyway. Before you only needed one weapon out of a handful (that's only one slot), now you only need one weapon out of many handfuls (you still only need one slot, but you can use any weapon you like).

More variety that isn't viable = Less money.

More variety that is viable = More money.

Excal limiting choices was making a lot of content (this is, melee weapons) useless for him, now he does not.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Sorrow0110

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Why? Everyone keeps forgetting WHY these things changed. It was intended that the syndicate mods work on EB. It WASN'T intended that they form a clear best choice that kills all weapon diversity. The effect the augment had on the game was unintended, and therefore changed. Why is this a big deal?

They didn't form a clear best, people were using the Skana, Dual Cleavers, Daggers (I agree that this one needed nerfed), etc. 

 

Now that they have been nerfed, the Dakra Prime is currently the best option for EB.

You see the problem with DE's logic here? Their change, which was supposedly meant to add more variety, actually completely removed it.

Edited August 20, 2015 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

They didn't form a clear best, people were using the Skana, Dual Cleavers, Daggers (I agree that this one needed nerfed), etc. 

 

Now that they have been nerfed, the Dakra Prime is currently the best option for EB.

 

You see the problem with DE's logic here? Their change, which was supposedly meant to add more variety, actually completely removed it.

Elaborate why Dakra Prime is the best option for EB. Do note what you said, EB, not Excal.

[funtimehippie]

delete

Edited August 20, 2015 by funtimehippie

[Darkmoone1]

A lot, but see this for a specific example:

Well I honestly don't see what's wrong with that. When they saw the results of this change they probably didn't like what they saw so they changed it back. It was a rumor that players started out of ignorance and this is now DE trying to balance their game so what's the problem? 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Elaborate why Dakra Prime is the best option for EB. Do note what you said, EB, not Excal.

Do note that using it for EB means using it on Excal.

[AdunSaveMe]

Yeah....the problem it's our game as well. We play it, we pay platinum on it to enjoy OURSELVES.

But it's not ours enough to warrant this amount of crying over a reverted change

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Well I honestly don't see what's wrong with that. When they saw the results of this change they probably didn't like what they saw so they changed it back. It was a rumor that players started out of ignorance and this is now DE trying to balance their game so what's the problem? 

The problem is that they aren't balancing anything. They are actually doing the opposite of their intended goal. This should be obvious.

 

Edit:

 

I am of two minds of this.  On one hand I have Excalibers on PS4 and PC and a p-skana on PS4, so this nerf is a real kick to the unmentionables.

 

On the other hand, if this nerf remains by the time it hits the PS4, I will make a killing selling my Dakra Prime set for plat on the PS4 trade chat. 

Edited August 20, 2015 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

Do note that using it for EB means using it on Excal.

Again, Elaborate, because right now, there's no difference between any other melee weapon and Dakra Prime when it comes to damage on EB.

 

Excal either doesn't get the passive bonus during EB or applies the passive to EB no matter which weapon you use (congrats, what the Wiki says is actually wrong).

I actually tested it with a Reaper prime with just Pressure point on it and no stance, during EB I did 930 damage, do note, no multiplier. Then I went in with Dakra Prime with the same damage mod and even kept Crimson Dervish for good measure, and it did 930 damage during EB, again, no multiplier.

And now I'm going to test with a different enemy for good measure.

 

 

Edit: First test was against a Draga because they don't attack back right now. I just tested both weapons against a Corrupted Heavy Gunner (also, both enemies at level 95), and both weapons (with the same mods as mentioned above) did 85 damage.

The wiki is wrong and what most people have been believing about his passive in EB is wrong, every weapon seems to be Equal now.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Sorrow0110

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Again, Elaborate, because right now, there's no difference between any other melee weapon and Dakra Prime when it comes to damage on EB.

 

Excal either doesn't get the passive bonus during EB or applies the passive to EB no matter which weapon you use (congrats, what the Wiki says is actually wrong).

I actually tested it with a Reaper prime with just Pressure point on it and no stance, during EB I did 930 damage, do note, no multiplier. Then I went in with Dakra Prime with the same damage mod and even kept Crimson Dervish for good measure, and it did 930 damage during EB, again, no multiplier.

And now I'm going to test with a different enemy for good measure.

 

Dakra Prime gets the passive bonus outside of EB, while also having the best DPS.  Weapons like the P.Skana need way more forma and the augment mods to reach their true potential outside of EB.

 

Then when you enter EB, the syndicate augments simply don't apply further lowering their DPS in EB, making the Dakra Prime the best choice because of how it works in and out of EB.

 

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

Dakra Prime gets the passive bonus outside of EB, while also having the best DPS.  Weapons like the P.Skana need way more forma and the augment mods to reach their true potential outside of EB.

 

Then when you enter EB, the syndicate augments simply don't apply further lowering their DPS in EB, making the Dakra Prime the best choice because of how it works in and out of EB.

 

But see, that applies to every frame and not EB, and the "nerf", was with mods interacting with EB, not about the weapons themselves, even though the end goal is to make every weapon equal when it comes to using EB (which they are now).

You just changed your argument for a sure win, and now you aren't even talking about EB anymore, but a completely different discussion, not cool.

 

Still, before you only needed one weapon, now you can only argument that Dakra Prime is the only good option, but when it comes to EB, it isn't, so.. yeah, so much for that.

I'm actually fine with his passive "limiting choices", since it doesn't really limit that much (before it was only 3 series of weapons), and there's other good weapons besides Dakra Prime that get the bonus.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Sorrow0110

[Darkmoone1]

The problem is that they aren't balancing anything. They are actually doing the opposite of their intended goal. This should be obvious.

 

Edit:

 

I am of two minds of this.  On one hand I have Excalibers on PS4 and PC and a p-skana on PS4, so this nerf is a real kick to the unmentionables.

 

On the other hand, if this nerf remains by the time it hits the PS4, I will make a killing selling my Dakra Prime set for plat on the PS4 trade chat. 

See you've lost me here. In spite of what's happened, EB having syndicate mods or not is a form of balance, because it determines how much overall potential EB will have overall in terms of damage and utility. How is this not balancing? Also, what is this intended goal that you've mentioned?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

But see, that applies to every frame and not EB, and the "nerf", was with mods interacting with EB, not about the weapons themselves, even though the end goal is to make every weapon equal when it comes to using EB (which they are now).

You just changed your argument for a sure win, and now you aren't even talking about EB anymore, but a completely different discussion, not cool.

 

Still, before you only needed one weapon, now you can only argument that Dakra Prime is the only good option, but when it comes to EB, it isn't, so.. yeah, so much for that.

I'm actually fine with his passive "limiting choices", since it doesn't really limit that much (before it was only 3 series of weapons), and there's other good weapons besides Dakra Prime that get the bonus.

Again, the weapon you are using on Excal is also the weapon you are using for EB. Dakra Prime benefits from Excal's passives while outside of EB, can reach it's full potential without weapon specific mods, and therefore, can fully deliver full power to EB, without sacrificing any of it's own potential.  That plus it's own DPS outside of EB, make it the single best choice to use post-augment nerf.

See you've lost me here. In spite of what's happened, EB having syndicate mods or not is a form of balance, because it determines how much overall potential EB will have overall in terms of damage and utility. How is this not balancing? Also, what is this intended goal that you've mentioned?

The intended goal that they mentioned was having more variety and not having a few melee weapons be the best choice for EB.

[Darkmoone1]

The intended goal that they mentioned was having more variety and not having a few melee weapons be the best choice for EB.

On this I will agree. I feel like in this aspect DE went backwards in their growth for the game, having misc. mods affecting warframe abilities added a dynamic aspect towards EB and I felt like this was a direction DE wanted to go with maybe some future abilities. I already made a post about this in another topic and yeah I'm a little dissapointed by it.

 

However I still don't believe this is something to be mad about. If DE feels that the syndicate mods shouldn't go in that direction it's their call. Will EB be put on a lower pedestal yeah sure, but it's still an amazing ability that can do many things well over what I feel is the norm for what abilities do.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Darkmoone1

[fatpig84]

It is called Balance.

You won't be the first to rage and last to rage.

 

Heck will my forma acrid be any good again ?

Well nope.

 

Same for my flux rifle.

It still doesn't do the 250 DPS of old.

 

Ignis used to deal 150 DPS.

Now it's only 100 DPS (!!).

 

Soma used to deal 87.5% crit chance with Point strike.
That brought it into a red critter and 100% yellow crit with Critical delay.

Now it is only 75%. So it is piss weak even with Critical delay since it caps out at 89.5% ish.

 

All these changes happen all the time, so players just live with it.

Edited August 20, 2015 by fatpig84

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

Again, the weapon you are using on Excal is also the weapon you are using for EB. Dakra Prime benefits from Excal's passives while outside of EB, can reach it's full potential without weapon specific mods, and therefore, can fully deliver full power to EB, without sacrificing any of it's own potential.  That plus it's own DPS outside of EB, make it the single best choice to use post-augment nerf.

The intended goal that they mentioned was having more variety and not having a few melee weapons be the best choice for EB.

But what matters is that in the discussion of Excal's change is the weapons that did matter for EB, not the lack of balance between weapons as whole. You are straying away from the main point further and further into a broader discussion (no Dragon people around for this is sad).

 

 

And as it stands right now, every melee weapon is equal for EB, that's what the change was about.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Sorrow0110

[Fafy]

Pretty sure Excalibutt is just the scapegoat for "Something we originally intended to work but we're going back on it now". See old Radial Javelin not needing LoS to needing it to not needing it again and then needing it again (And staying that way as its final). Ah well, Excalibur I only really go back on if I want to mess around with his Exalted Blade, and even if I lose damage, I doubt this change will stop me.

 

Again, as much as this is unfortunate and kinda sucks, since they made sure that the functionality was there, we'll just have to get over it, sadly nothing else we can do.

Honestly, we should all blame the real culprit... COVERT LETHALITY.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Fafy