Why I've Lost Trust In De

[Valar.Morghulis]

I honestly feel that the EB carnages where necessary and overall good for Excalibur. They had no idea that Excalibur would literally be limited to 4 weapons with syndicate mods by the community. This is something the community kind of did to them selfs, this is along the same line as the Radial Javelin changes had the community not abused it so much that it was "this build or go home" then I honestly feel the changes would have never happened.

 

 

I do agree that DE is terrible at communicating with the community. If they had made a clear post explaining why design changes are being made to EB when the community disagrees. That way the community will have an informed cause for the change instead of having half a hundred topics with wild accusation and conjecture on why EB was nerfed.

 

 

Overall better communication with the community would help/solve many of the problems and distrust the community has with the developers. But from what i have seen today in past Dev Streams and comments from the DE Devlopment team is that they really do not care what the community has to say they are going to do their thing, their way and the players can go play other games if they like.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

I honestly feel that the EB carnages where necessary and overall good for Excalibur. They had no idea that Excalibur would literally be limited to 4 weapons with syndicate mods by the community. This is something the community kind of did to them selfs, this is along the same line as the Radial Javelin changes had the community not abused it so much that it was "this build or go home" then I honestly feel the changes would have never happened.

 

 

I do agree that DE is terrible at communicating with the community. If they had made a clear post explaining why design changes are being made to EB when the community disagrees. That way the community will have an informed cause for the change instead of having half a hundred topics with wild accusation and conjecture on why EB was nerfed.

 

 

Overall better communication with the community would help/solve many of the problems and distrust the community has with the developers. But from what i have seen today in past Dev Streams and comments from the DE Devlopment team is that they really do not care what the community has to say they are going to do their thing, their way and the players can go play other games if they like.

But there was some communication, some people just doesn't agree with the end result, that's about it. The post was clear and the reasons were stated.

If people doesn't believe in DE, it's up to them. If people didn't have different beliefs, there wouldn't be as many religions, and realistically, not everyone will believe in something, it just won't happen, and it certainly won't be DE making it happen.

And in forums like this, there's always a greater amount of posts towards negativity and flaws than posts about positivity and saying that X or Y is good as it is, that's the nature of this forums, and sadly, it's required for the Devs to see what actually is wrong, even though some times it feels rather crappy that they have to go through that without being congratulated as much when they do good things, such threads usually end up being labelled as useless, which again, by the nature of this forums, kinda of are useless, they want to make new things, better things, fix things, the posts about flaws, bugs and wrongs are required.

 

 

 

I actually feel like laughing when someone brings the "DE went back on their word with the nerf!" argument (not related with the quote above) because if the syndicates weren't part of the original design and were added later as a buff, those same people would be all happy, when the basis of their current argument would still apply, they went back on their original design and changed. And that's why it's a bad argument, it's incredibly biased when the core argument isn't specifically about nerfs or buffs, but about the original state of something.

Better yet, if DE was never to change anything so they wouldn't go against their "word"  (this is, initial implementation), Exalted Blade wouldn't even exist.

Changes will happen in Warframe, and they won't be limited by the what some people consider to be the community (because the community is more than 300 people) and not every one in the community cares about the well being of the game, which is more important than their own enjoyment, if they can't enjoy the game, move on, you aren't making much of a point in staying in a game that you don't enjoy, you will end up being destructive and ultimately your opinion won't be valid anymore. : (

And you can see that in this thread since the beginning, there's not a single good constructive post about why the change is bad, besides "now weapons doesn't matter when before only 3~4 did", when that's a skewed reality and honestly, at least mods matter, else you wouldn't have an ability as good as Exalted Blade is right now (which still is really good, and that energy drain is way too slow comparing with other abilities at max efficiency).

Edit: Do you know what would be great that someone made a thread about? Slash Dash being unable to hit moving targets with certain weapons equipped. Just because only fraps seems to work for me, and then it makes my client crash (OBS doesn't work on my rig since it's not that powerful D;) and I can't record it to make decent thread.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Sorrow0110

[Temfist]

A developer can never please everyone with "changes". Even when the changes are needed to add to the overall level of game polish and balance, many will regard the change as a betrayal of something they enjoyed about the game and choose to stop playing it in favor of games they are familiar with or that appeal to them in ways the game they left could not.

 

This is very normal, and Developers need to make decisions based on what is best for their game in the "long term". I do feel that DE has occasionally made changes as sort of a band aid fix, or has avoided making certain changes because they would effect many other aspects of play "in the long term", but I personally haven't seen them make any decisions that have warranted a "loss of trust". That said, I feel any level of trust between me as a consumer of a producers product and them, is whether or not they are "living up to expectations", of which the only thing they have truly established is a commitment to making the game "better" on a weekly basis where possible. I think they have "gained" my trust in that regard by being very on point about updates and not rolling out "unfinished content" to meet their deadlines. I mean, the content could always be "better" but thats a time and money resource dependent factor, and I think they set the bar pretty high for a F2P game.

 

So while I understand your frustrated with how they sometimes don't address certain criticisms, I don't think they always NEED to address them, because ultimately it's a product that you are choosing to invest time into. Anyway, I don't know, I think the Devs are pretty good about listening to people. More so then some of the other F2P games devs I've seen that's for sure.

[Tyrian3k]

Except by doing so: It makes the melee selection LESS.

 

(how are you guys not comprehending this).

 

Lets say I want to use X weapon because it benefits from a mod in synergy with EB and normally I would never touch X weapon.

 

 

Ok I can still use all other weapons, their synergy remains the same.

 

Now you remove X weapon's synergy.

 

 

Why would I bother using that weapon now? X weapon is clearly worse than other weapons.

 

Let's undo the changes in the same manner and look at it:

 

Weapon X has a syndicate mod that currently doesn't affect EB.

 

DE then changes that and it does affect EB, making weapon X clealy superior than all other weapons.

 

Why would I bother using anything but weapon X on Excalibur now?

 

Without the syndicate mods affecting EB, I can use all weapons except the ones that only work with a syndicate mod without weakening my EB or the weapon.

With the syndicate mods affecting EB, I can only use the few weapons that have a good syndicate mod which boosts EB, limiting my choice to 2 types: Dual Sword ((Prisma) Dual Cleavers), Longswords (Skanas, Jaw Sword).

 

How are you not comprehending that?

 

 

I loved using Prisma Skana on my Excalibur, but somehow I have the common sense to understand that not everyone would want to use one of those weapons on their Excalibur so they can use their ultimate to its full potential, needless to say that only the Prisma weapons are actually viable outside of EB. Not everyone has those Prisma weapons anyways, so many players couldn't use a viable melee weapon and use EB's full potential at the same time.

 

 

How it currently works is not perfect, but it definitely allows for more variety, even if you want to argue that it would have made the Jaw Sword an option, which it actually wasn't. The only thing you'd have been using was EB, not the Jaw Sword.

[Onisa]

Let's undo the changes in the same manner and look at it:

 

Weapon X has a syndicate mod that currently doesn't affect EB.

 

DE then changes that and it does affect EB, making weapon X clealy superior than all other weapons.

 

Why would I bother using anything but weapon X on Excalibur now?

 

Without the syndicate mods affecting EB, I can use all weapons except the ones that only work with a syndicate mod without weakening my EB or the weapon.

With the syndicate mods affecting EB, I can only use the few weapons that have a good syndicate mod which boosts EB, limiting my choice to 2 types: Dual Sword ((Prisma) Dual Cleavers), Longswords (Skanas, Jaw Sword).

 

How are you not comprehending that?

 

 

I loved using Prisma Skana on my Excalibur, but somehow I have the common sense to understand that not everyone would want to use one of those weapons on their Excalibur so they can use their ultimate to its full potential, needless to say that only the Prisma weapons are actually viable outside of EB. Not everyone has those Prisma weapons anyways, so many players couldn't use a viable melee weapon and use EB's full potential at the same time.

 

 

How it currently works is not perfect, but it definitely allows for more variety, even if you want to argue that it would have made the Jaw Sword an option, which it actually wasn't. The only thing you'd have been using was EB, not the Jaw Sword.

Ultimately nothing has changed.

Players who want to minmax will just use X, Y, or Z instead of A, B, or C as there will always be a 'top'.

Players who don't care, will still not care, and use whatever they want.

[Hitexh]

DE dont want to limit melee weapon selection on excalted blade? How about limiting the syandana selection with arcane enhancement? Im using the same helmet and syandana on my Nova for the whole month just because it offer me effect of max arcane enhancement. Excalibur is so fortunate to get more customazition now.

[LordOfScrugging]

DE dont want to limit melee weapon selection on excalted blade? How about limiting the syandana selection with arcane enhancement? Im using the same helmet and syandana on my Nova for the whole month just because it offer me effect of max arcane enhancement. Excalibur is so fortunate to get more customazition now.

don't mean to sound like an !, but didn't you limit yourself with the syandana and helm? i mean you put the arcanes on them....

 

 

about Excal, this talk about the syndicate mods, get over it. you'll fell tons better once you just sit back, take a breath, and realize. IT'S NOT THAT SERIOUS. it's a game, yea things get patched and whatever. if you are stressing that much over the blocking of literally 2-3 mods. then i would hate to see you on a battlefield fighting for your country, of trying to put out a fire, or dealing with other more important things.

Edited August 21, 2015 by LordOfScrugging

[Tyrian3k]

Ultimately nothing has changed.

Players who want to minmax will just use X, Y, or Z instead of A, B, or C as there will always be a 'top'.

Players who don't care, will still not care, and use whatever they want.

Something that has changed is that I can now freely use any melee weapon I want without making my EB less effective, be it Scindo Prime for its damage, Orthos Prime for its range or the Glaive Prime for its fun factor.

Even the pure minmaxers now have more than the two choices they had before.

[Onisa]

Something that has changed is that I can now freely use any melee weapon I want without making my EB less effective, be it Scindo Prime for its damage, Orthos Prime for its range or the Glaive Prime for its fun factor.

Even the pure minmaxers now have more than the two choices they had before.

Except you could have done that before, for the same reason you can do it now.

DE has simply removed the option "X for it's augment".

[FelisImpurrator]

Overall better communication with the community would help/solve many of the problems and distrust the community has with the developers. But from what i have seen today in past Dev Streams and comments from the DE Devlopment team is that they really do not care what the community has to say they are going to do their thing, their way and the players can go play other games if they like.

Again I direct you toward a simple task: Read the patch notes. All of them. Compare the recent ones in particular to the threads in Feedback and Bug Reports. 17.0 read like a damn Christmas list - some of it for months-old suggestions.

 

They listen, and when it doesn't go completely against their vision (like letting people stand in one place and AFK-stack loot to the sky), they get to it. Eventually. When their monstrous backlog for a team of 200something isn't so ridiculously full, when they don't have to pump out major updates every single week because otherwise the players would scream and whine, "where is my new content", like they did the day U17 dropped.

 

But I'm not exactly sure they have enough people to reply to every thread.

[Tyrian3k]

Except you could have done that before, for the same reason you can do it now.

DE has simply removed the option "X for it's augment".

Before the change, changing my melee weapon from a syndicate weapon would have reduced the damage of my EB. Invalid point.

[Rem_NL]

I don't feel confident anymore to put my hard earned forma (24 hour wait is hard earned) Exilus mod slot (don't get me started here) Potato's, Maxed out mods in anything anymore, because DE can and WILL obliterate all that work in a single swipe. 

 

They say they want to reduce the grind.. ---> nerf pilfering swarm into oblivion and give 0 alternatives and compensation to what has been lost.

 

On the market at this moment Prisma Skana's go for up to 450p, I hate to be that guy who bought it because he heard how much fun it was to use with the syndicate mod he bought for 30p, because he couldn't be asked to grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind grind for it.

 

New requirements for dojo weapons... omg i don't even.. 

 

And don't get me started about the failed implementation of arcane enhancements. 

 

I give it a month or so, if DE continues in this way I am out of here.

[p3z1]

Look at all this salt...

 

Honestly, excalibur was broken when syndicate mods affected EB. Imagine having unlimited energy equipping the kestrel, or getting healed once in a while with your jaw sword, both running EB.

 

Now remove the interaction of EB to syndicate augments. You can still use the weapon without EB. You can still get your fancy procs. It just wouldn't affect EB. Losing 100% damage on EB is big, but it's a necessary balance.

 

@OP, yes DE has it's mistakes, but some of them are for the sake of balance. No I am not a white knight, or whatever you call it, balance is integral in all games (except minecraft, screw that noise)

[ShortCat]

When I first saw the change that allowed Excal to use syndicate effect in EB form,I was surprised,because it was painfully obvious way too big of a buff.

Move backwards was only a matter of time. Covert Lethality was also way too op, there is no room for argumentation.

While this "nerf" cripples selection of weapons, which shine only through the syndicate mods, the implementation was still poorly done, I agree on that. Just by ceeping the base dmg-buff these weapons could still remain valuable, even without the syndicate effect in EB form.

 

The rant on PSHydroid is not justified, it was a nerf on one side, but also a buff on the other.

 

Now directly to you OP. Warframe community is second worst I have experience in online games, loosing only to DOTA2. It doesn't mean they should not listen at all to what we have to say, however this thread is one example of personal rant. Even in the thread you mentioned you can see people arguing for and against the change, you cannot please everyone!

 

However, I am not blindly defending DE in my post, as many changes, especially in the recent time seem to be shortsighted. If you need a true reason to be angry about, here a post from the same thread:

 

Perhaps test things alittle more before releasing them?

Grattler for example, how many times do you guys plan to "fix" it? I count 2 so far :P

[Onisa]

Before the change, changing my melee weapon from a syndicate weapon would have reduced the damage of my EB. Invalid point.

By a relatively minuscule amount. If you're the kind of player to choose Glaive 'for fun' you're already the kind of player that doesn't care about EB's overall DPS though.

 

 

Look at all this salt...

 

Honestly, excalibur was broken when syndicate mods affected EB. Imagine having unlimited energy equipping the kestrel, or getting healed once in a while with your jaw sword, both running EB.

 

Now remove the interaction of EB to syndicate augments. You can still use the weapon without EB. You can still get your fancy procs. It just wouldn't affect EB. Losing 100% damage on EB is big, but it's a necessary balance.

 

@OP, yes DE has it's mistakes, but some of them are for the sake of balance. No I am not a white knight, or whatever you call it, balance is integral in all games (except minecraft, screw that noise)

Honestly I might be a little more upset if I hadn't come to expect a kick in the teeth from the Devs each update. The only reason I even remotely care is this whole flip from 'let's add this awesome thing' to 'nope, it was a bug all along'. If you're going to remove something because your player base misused it at least have the spine to flat out say it.

[p3z1]

Honestly I might be a little more upset if I hadn't come to expect a kick in the teeth from the Devs each update. The only reason I even remotely care is this whole flip from 'let's add this awesome thing' to 'nope, it was a bug all along'. If you're going to remove something because your player base misused it at least have the spine to flat out say it.

 

They did actually, too bad it was indirect. Better find it in the forums (forgot where) but it had to do with EB and covert lethality.

[Onisa]

They did actually, too bad it was indirect. Better find it in the forums (forgot where) but it had to do with EB and covert lethality.

Are you referring to DEMegan's post? The one calling the syndicate augments and Covert Lethality's interactions with Exalted Blade a bug?

Hence my wish for them to 'flat out say it'. If I want to listen to people beat around the bush I'll watch some political garbage.

[p3z1]

Are you referring to DEMegan's post? The one calling the syndicate augments and Covert Lethality's interactions with Exalted Blade a bug?

Hence my wish for them to 'flat out say it'. If I want to listen to people beat around the bush I'll watch some political garbage.

 

As much as I'd also like to see that, IMO it'd be bad on their PR. I mean imagine telling people flat out that this shouldn't be a thing because it's OP but other players would probably go "it's balanced, pls don't change" or something similar.

[Onisa]

As much as I'd also like to see that, IMO it'd be bad on their PR. I mean imagine telling people flat out that this shouldn't be a thing because it's OP but other players would probably go "it's balanced, pls don't change" or something similar.

As opposed to anyone with more than a goldfish's memory realizing they will go back on anything they say? That things they rave about being able to add for people's enjoyment one day are completely unintended bugs the next? I'd prefer the 'this is why we can't have nice things' approach to DE's current 'what are you talking about, this was never meant to be a thing'.

[p3z1]

As opposed to anyone with more than a goldfish's memory realizing they will go back on anything they say? That things they rave about being able to add for people's enjoyment one day are completely unintended bugs the next? I'd prefer the 'this is why we can't have nice things' approach to DE's current 'what are you talking about, this was never meant to be a thing'.

 

Point made

[TaylorsContraction]

Meanwhile I have gained TRUST IN DE because they are willing to perform necessary balancing changes that people simply refuse to recognize as such. Not everythingi s a nerf and not everything is a buff. While not all equipment can or should be viable, all warframes should be viable in some role.

[Wargasm_v2.X]

The community *likes* what is overpowered because:

 

1. It's fun to faceroll things... until the novelty wears off and you realize (if ever) it's safe, repetitive, and largely non-interactive

2. You refuse to pay money and feel obligated to run the same missions and must be efficient

3. It feels "bad" to end up on your back needing the assistance of your teammates

4. [DE] put it in the game so it must be how they want you to play until they don't...and balance/nerf it

[Empiren]

Meanwhile I have gained TRUST IN DE because they are willing to perform necessary balancing changes that people simply refuse to recognize as such. Not everythingi s a nerf and not everything is a buff. While not all equipment can or should be viable, all warframes should be viable in some role.

 

As someone who's been playing the game for awhile.....

 

All DE does is make things good/viable, then nerf them a month later.

-Same with the Ogris

-Same with the Acrid

-Same with the Hek(who lets face it, is going to get another nerf)

-Same with Ember

-Same with Excal

-Same with Hydroid(sorta, he was still subpar to Nekros imo).

-(I really could go on by just looking at the changes to weapons/frames).

 

 

 

If you look at DE's balance schedule, it's FoTM to the core.

 

And no it's not "this month something is good" it's usually "something is good then DE nerfed it".

 

 

Even then, some of the things they nerf are just ridiculously petty. Like nerfing hydroids ability. Nobody plays hydroid. Nobody really cared. But you gotta change it.

 

Or Excalibur's syndicate mods. Nobody really needed that extra ability, but it was something to level up a syndicate for. Something to make use of those weapons and make it feel like actual  progression.

 

Really, at the end of the day DE shows either a complete lack of foresight or trying to promote FoTM in attempts at sales.

[TaylorsContraction]

As someone who's been playing the game for awhile.....

 

All DE does is make things good/viable, then nerf them a month later.

-Same with the Ogris

-Same with the Acrid

-Same with the Hek(who lets face it, is going to get another nerf)

-Same with Ember

-Same with Excal

-Same with Hydroid(sorta, he was still subpar to Nekros imo).

-(I really could go on by just looking at the changes to weapons/frames).

 

 

 

If you look at DE's balance schedule, it's FoTM to the core.

 

And no it's not "this month something is good" it's usually "something is good then DE nerfed it".

 

 

Even then, some of the things they nerf are just ridiculously petty. Like nerfing hydroids ability. Nobody plays hydroid. Nobody really cared. But you gotta change it.

 

Or Excalibur's syndicate mods. Nobody really needed that extra ability, but it was something to level up a syndicate for. Something to make use of those weapons and make it feel like actual  progression.

 

Really, at the end of the day DE shows either a complete lack of foresight or trying to promote FoTM in attempts at sales.

The only thing I can agree on from what you've listed is the Hydroid nerf.

 

Ogris is still pretty strong, if the nerf you're referring to is the ammo pool. That hasn't affected my use of the weapon. Though I only ever brought it with me to mostly ODD which has changed quite a bit. Most people will opt out to run with a tonkor because it does more damage and doesn't do self damage.

 As for the Acrid, it's strong versus corpus units and that's where I leveled mine, that's its only niche role though. It was pretty OP before, in its current state it's not that great I'll agree on that. But perhaps it was not intended to be the end all of weapons. There are actual pistols that are extremely strong that haven't been nerfed which signifies to me they are intended to be that way (Brakk / Marelok (Vaykor) etc...)

 

I wasn't around when Ember was OP but she still wipes the star-chart with ease. Given how many changes were added to her kit, it's clear that DE is still figuring out on what to do with her. But it's also clear that no matter what it will be, she will never be a tank again.

 

Excal is in a good place right now more or less. Personally I would prefer a shorter range on EB waves, but most people are fine with it as is, thus I'll settle for what we have.

 

Mag is still strong and her greedy pull is great in survival camping missions. I used gmag for draco runs and other camp runs when it pulled for everyone. It was boring for me personally and I felt like it needed a change which it got.

 

At the end of the day, most changes that are conisdered "nerfs" by the community, I actually agree with. At least those that were implemented since I've started playing the game. The hydroid nerf, was put in mainly for business reasons I imagine. Why would anyone buy resources from the market when your pilfering hydroid will supply everything you ever wanted in great quantities? He was a great way to reduce the grind, but in its current state Warframe's business model relies on the grind too much to allow that.

[Ezariel]

The problem is that DE doesn't listen to the community when the community disagrees with a proposed change.

 

DE does not differ from other companies in this regard. Zero disappointment.

DE wants simply to the product as much as possible to earn. The more that is not known whether he will come out of beta. Whims players do not care about what is so silly that a lot of people have very interesting ideas that could spice up this game.

 

 

You can vulgarly say that DE has in the ! players - such an impression by reading the forums and seeing what is happening in the game.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Ezariel