Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[InFlames]

It would probably take months to balance everything and I would rather them just spend the time on other things.

 

 

Also this will kill my killer Paracyst.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Mr.Pava

[EmptyDevil]

Why can't they just buff other mods into usability instead of nerfing the ones the entire game is balanced around. I mean they have some extremely garbage mods...

 

I would only consider using this if it were 120% status chance. To make up for the lack of +60% damage it doesn't have like the dual stat mods.

[ss4chris]

As long as DE keeps it the Damege percent the same as they are now which is 120% & 200% for the SM mod one for Her

while also adding the ammo consumption Stat I think people can live with that

But I swear If DE Nerfs the Damege & lowers the Mulit Shot Damege percent I & meny others will boycott this game..

I already know a ton of clan mates & friends I play with who have already said if we lose the 120% mutilshot there done with warframe & will Uninstall it from. System as will i

We will be OK with the change as long as the Damege aka 120% mutilshot Damege is untouched ammo consumption isn't a big deal too us.

but nerf the Damege DE & almost all of the PS4 fan base will abandoned warframe

We are tired of the warframe being Nerf Frame either stop the nerfs or change the name of the game to NerfFrame.....

As stated you can change the mod to add the ammo consumption part but don't ya dare touch the Damege otherwise a lot of your player base is gone I already Comfrimed this..

So DE think long & hard b4 u go crazy with the nerf.

A single nerf to Damege on the mods will destroy this game.

We don't care about your so called weapon rebalnce unless you add the Damege taken away from the mod,if any to the weapon

If nerf the Damege then add the Damege loss to all weapons to make up the difference & u might still save the player base but it would be better off to leave the Damege as is & just add the ammo consumption thx u

lmao. a couple of players and a clan boycotting a game isnt going to do anything. but w/e floats your boat

[venon23]

dont get this guys DE change dmg too 2.0 it kills my flux 7 formas and my acrid and i didint come here crying like u guys do please dont qq so much and fix on multishoot didint happen let DE do there thing and rebalance things then u guys can see what needs buff and what not .....



also fragmenting bullets dont consume extra ammo but gives half or less dmg and that didint happen so the mod was too op for too long .

Tennos already give too much dmg .

If the fix or nerf is too game braking they change it again the game still beta u guys cant forget about that (dont come with the 3 years beta are game that did it for 5 years )



 

Edited September 9, 2015 by venon23

[venon23]

until mr 30 was possible many things gone be reworked fixed and changed lets enjoy the ride

[Kolos1001]

I would only consider using this if it were 120% status chance. To make up for the lack of +60% damage it doesn't have like the dual stat mods.

That's what I mean. They need to buff other mods to the point of usability because they have a few mods that are so strong they are mandatory and now the game is balanced around those. Nerfing the mandatory mods just breaks the games balance while buffing other mods would actually give players more options on their loadouts. Now it's going to be even MORE restricting...not less. 

[Mac2492]

You know what is stupidly, blatantly broken?  Enemy scaling.  They should fix that first.  I don't know why you people think that 'mandatory' mods are bad.  The mod system is a both a customization AND upgrade system. 

 

You people keep using "Mandatory" as your buzz-word, yet you don't realize that MMO's make 'mandatory' items all the time for end-game content.  Psst. It's usually called B.I.S or Best in Slot.

I agree that enemy scaling is a major issue. They need to fix both.

 

How do you balance enemies around three mods that each increase damage by a factor of 2? Even if you make the argument that the mod system is also an upgrade system (a fair point), take a closer look at how these mods function currently. We'll can call them B.I.S. or mandatory. The terminology is not important here.

 

Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, Heated Chamber (or equivalent)

 

These are (relatively) easy to acquire even in your first week. Once you have this trinity, let's assume you rank them to a fair R5 Hornet Strike, R4 Barrel Diffusion, R5 Heated Chamber. Using one means ~2x damage. Using two is ~x4 damage. Using three is ~x8 damage. If you want a steady progression you could then balance low tier enemies around base damage and mid-high tiers around 8x damage. You can make enemies smarter but you still need to give them more HP/armor or you've created the reverse problem where damage provides nothing. The issue here is that 8x damage is almost trivial to reach but you MUST use all 30 capacity in order to reach it. Leveling any weapon from 1-30, it is always optimal to go Hornet Strike, Element, Barrel Diffusion. There is no customization. It's one thing to be best in slot among your item type, but in this case we're pitting the key purpose of the weapon (damage) against utility. If enemies are very fairly tuned to ~8x stats for mid-high levels, anyone who decides they want Gunslinger over any of these three mods will suffer. This player will be stuck with 4x damage against 8x enemies.

 

In other words, enemy scaling is stupid but so is our weapon damage scaling. In fact, our weapon damage is even more stupid but people don't realize this because it caps while enemy scaling does not. Our weapon damage skyrockets by a factor of 8 then increases more moderately from there due to diminishing returns from adding damage.

 

I understand why everyone loves "just fix enemy scaling and leave multishot alone" because they don't lose anything. The problem is that the way our weapon damage progression makes no sense so it's difficult to balance enemies around it. Run one low level defense and suddenly you can double your damage. Do it again and you double your damage again. How do you fix enemies in a long-term game when players skyrocket within an hour then plateau?

 

Both systems need to be adjusted because they're interdependent.

If you want to see how broken enemy scaling is, just run any endless mission

If you want to see how broken weapon scaling is, run through non-endless missions.

 

Rebalancing enemy scaling means retuning them to our weapon power/scaling. Our weapon scaling is broken. If they tune to it, enemy scaling will still be broken. Both systems need to be fixed. If you actually want things to get better then you can't just hold on to things that you like. That's not balance, that's preference. I freaking love multishot, but it's too much free power. Do I dislike power? No, I freaking love power. But if we want enemies to have a smooth progression then our tools for killing enemies also need a smooth progression, not 8x power spike then plateau.

[-Ozymandias-]

So guys...remember that time when you complained about "mandatory" mods?

Well it seems you don't like the idea of multishot getting a rework huh?

 

To DE, i do not agree with this whole rework because of miltishot being "a bug", are you going to revisit the RNG tables? because with multishot nerfed it's gonna be way more difficult to stay +40min on a T4 survival/defense with the riddiculous enemy scaling, just to get 5 cores.

 

And to my fellow Tenno, stop complaining about everything.

It's like excalibur, i remember ppl bashing him and complaining that he was outclased by every other warframe, he gets a buff, now ppl complain that he is op.

 

So next time you complain about something, think about it

 

Peace

[DarkRuler2500]

DE simply exaggerates everything the community wants.

It just takes the base idea of community feedback but goes way overboard with the way they do it then.

[Dualstar]

Theres a bit of a problem in your... heartfelt request.

 

'People' dont think. 'People' just react.

[Si3g]

So much wine, yet no cheese.

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

The community wouldn't be "the community" if they didn't grab their torches and pitchforks over the slightest change to the core game.

[ragingdeamon]

are you sure that the people that cry "nerf" are the same people that cry "don't nerf"?

[goggles2]

there seems to be a group of chronic complainers on the forums that make 15 threads demanding nerfs everytime something is changed

Edited September 9, 2015 by goggles2

[Rexlars]

It's apparent that you guys either can't read or don't listen because it was said on stream & posted several places that the multishot balance will entail several things. Not just a Multishot change. 

 

    ****"Please note that this discussion occurred without any testing or work being done on the matter yet, the discussion was rather candid."

 

    ***"Part of that means reworking the Mods to provide a greater risk and reward, but a large portion of that means revisiting the damage and scaling of our weapons as they currently stand."

 

    ***"Expect more information on the rebalancing of weapon DPS, weapon leveling, and 'mandatory Mods' in the near future."

 

Just a few of the things they said. 

Edited September 9, 2015 by Rexlars

[Sziklamester]

I am the only one who ask balanced implementations instead nerf/buff later it?

[goggles2]

It's apparent that you guys either can't read or don't listen because it was said on stream & posted several places that the multishot balance will entail several things. Not just a Multishot change. 

 

    ****"Please note that this discussion occurred without any testing or work being done on the matter yet, the discussion was rather candid."

 

    ***"Part of that means reworking the Mods to provide a greater risk and reward, but a large portion of that means revisiting the damage and scaling of our weapons as they currently stand."

 

    ***"Expect more information on the rebalancing of weapon DPS, weapon leveling, and 'mandatory Mods' in the near future."

 

Just a few of the things they said. 

 so lets wait and see what DE comes up with instead of sh*tposting 15 doom and gloom threads everyday crying about how something is changing

[Rexlars]

 so lets wait and see what DE comes up with instead of sh*tposting 15 doom and gloom threads everyday crying about how something is changing

 

What I've been saying all along. This guy gets it.

[PapaFragolino]

 

Thanks to all the complaining we'll get an actual rework instead of a broken and useless bandaid solution, just saying.

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

And for the love of God, it doesn't matter if it's harder to go longer on Endless missions.  You just reach the difficulty cap faster.  Chasing Endless missions as a balance point is silly.  The balance point should always be what does it take to get everything in the game.

[R34LM]

It's apparent that you guys either can't read or don't listen because it was said on stream & posted several places that the multishot balance will entail several things. Not just a Multishot change. 

 

    ****"Please note that this discussion occurred without any testing or work being done on the matter yet, the discussion was rather candid."

 

    ***"Part of that means reworking the Mods to provide a greater risk and reward, but a large portion of that means revisiting the damage and scaling of our weapons as they currently stand."

 

    ***"Expect more information on the rebalancing of weapon DPS, weapon leveling, and 'mandatory Mods' in the near future."

 

Just a few of the things they said. 

 

This says nothing to enemy scaling though, at least as far as I am concerned. That is the biggest reason why mandatory damage mods and infiCC, because enemies at end game are health tubs with 1 hit wonder guns.

 

I would be pleasantly surprised if enemy armor and health scaling were included with the multishot change.

[Rexlars]

This says nothing to enemy scaling though, at least as far as I am concerned. That is the biggest reason why mandatory damage mods and infiCC, because enemies at end game are health tubs with 1 hit wonder guns.

 

I would be pleasantly surprised if enemy armor and health scaling were included with the multishot change.

 

Well for 1, there is no end-game. Going 60+ min in a T4 surv is not a requirement nor is it necessary. Like geomancer above me said, "And for the love of God, it doesn't matter if it's harder to go longer on Endless missions.  You just reach the difficulty cap faster.  Chasing Endless missions as a balance point is silly.  The balance point should always be what does it take to get everything in the game." 

 

With that said, weapon scaling goes hand in hand with enemy scaling because what are the weapons scaling against? That's right, enemies. 

[(XBOX)Gray Silhouette]

We need multishot nerf hypethreads now, since it's changed into a rebalance of all the things.

I'm pumped for scaling 2.0

[srlhama]

Massive exaggeration. People said the same thing about nerfing coptering. DE also said they will go over the weapons to make sure they don't suffer or become trash with the change.

Well I already changed my mind, reading that now sounds stupid.

I changed my opinion after playing a lot of Archwing and realized we don't need a lot of damage mods because we don't need to fight against lvl 70 enemies to have fun, Caelus is a lvl 30 mission and even that is challenging, because we dont do 30K damage per second( except Velocitus but it has his downsides) we dont need a 90% multishot or a 165% damage bonus to enjoy play the game.

Now I am thinking it will be a welcome change, just curious to see how DE will handle it.

[-Ozymandias-]

This says nothing to enemy scaling though, at least as far as I am concerned. That is the biggest reason why mandatory damage mods and infiCC, because enemies at end game are health tubs with 1 hit wonder guns.

 

I would be pleasantly surprised if enemy armor and health scaling were included with the multishot change.

yup

 

maybe instead of just throwing in more enemies with riddiculous health and dmg, they could put like completely different enemies, smarter enemies instead of bullet sponges maybe?

but then again idk how would they do that