The Heart Of The Problem: Some Mods Will Always Be Mandatory

[blablark]

No matter what DE does there will always be mandatory mods. Only situation to make all mods equal would be to change the stats to give them the same dps. Trash tier mods like common +physical dmg mods will always be left out, overshadowed by the event mods. DE introduces mandatory mods, at the same time doesn't want mandatory mods. This is a problem.

 

Unsolvable problem.

Mods 3.0

Lots of compensation required in a rework.

 

DE's best option would be to leave the mod system alone, as with a weapon tier list there is always a mod tier list. Create more viable alternatives by buffing, not nerfing. I think there is a second chance to create equally viable traits in the focus system. 

 

EDIT: I have also been an avid supporter of enemy scaling fixes. Tone down armour scaling into something less exponential/give it a hard cap!

Edited September 6, 2015 by blablark

[Dillon_J]

no. its real easy just make all mods in pve like pvp mods. (how they shouldve been from the start.) Then a lot of enemey rebalancing. Only problem is well this kind of stuff takes time.

[akira_him]

Because the enemy scaling is broken since damage 1.0, 

this makes DPS so important, and even worse after damage 2.0

Fix scaling or we don't have balance in PvE

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

Instead of nerfing mods, or changing them. We first need the AI and the enemies reworked into Enemy/AI 2.0

THEN let us see if we need to change any mods for PvE

[blablark]

no. its real easy just make all mods in pve like pvp mods. (how they shouldve been from the start.) Then a lot of enemey rebalancing. Only problem is well this kind of stuff takes time.

Well, easy for you to say. All those who bought the event mods would be preparing for a flame war.

Edited September 6, 2015 by blablark

[Dillon_J]

Well, easy for you to say. All those who bought the event mods would be preparing for a flame war.

You must not have played this game long. They have always found ways to either change or compensate players when mods are changed and removed.

Instead of nerfing mods, or changing them. We first need the AI and the enemies reworked into Enemy/AI 2.0

THEN let us see if we need to change any mods for PvE

Theyve explained this many times. The AI will never be better than it currently is.

[blablark]

You must not have played this game long. They have always found ways to either change or compensate players when mods are changed and removed.

Theyve explained this many times. The AI will never be better than it currently is.

It's kind of hard to keep track of these kind of things. And unfair. Some people pay 500 plat while others get it for free. Many trades, finding and compensating each individual who spent different values of plat. DE would certainly rather not change the mods.

[Dillon_J]

It's kind of hard to keep track of these kind of things. And unfair. Some people pay 500 plat while others get it for free. Many trades, finding and compensating each individual who spent different values of plat. DE would certainly rather not change the mods.

mods, prime gear and weapons constantly fluctuate in price. If you want to buy the synd tigris right now its 200p. but later down the road itll end up less than 50p most likely just like everything drops in price. So to say that it is unfair, no.

 

THIS IS BETA. Just wanted to remind you of that bud.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Dillon_J

[7grims]

There are a ton of solutions, and even a handful of solutions that are perfect and viable to solve everything.

[blablark]

mods, prime gear and weapons constantly fluctuate in price. If you want to buy the synd tigris right now its 200p. but later down the road itll end up less than 50p most likely just like everything drops in price. So to say that it is unfair, no.

 

THIS IS BETA. Just wanted to remind you of that bud.

Come on bud, huge reworks aren't common in beta, especially those that affect everything. Alpha had that already. It's no fun for the Devs to do that. A history of events with all the special mods suddenly become nothing special. Make all the players rage at the radical changes, all the grinding for x wasted. More posts of 'I want to quit'. 

[Urlan]

I agree with Akira_Him and Hawk_of_the_Reborn; the best manner of correcting preceived issues of damage is to correct the issue of enemy scaling first and then looking at mods within that new or rather in this case, older enviroment. Remember that enemy scaling is an introduced issue just as more mods were introduced to react to this scaling and then enemy scaling was then increased. This creates an arms war, rather than make the tools of this conflict worse for only one side and not the other, the correct answer is to go back to the root of the issue and remove or rebalance enemy scaling so players do not need to have the damage mods that were introduced as tools against such enemies.

[(PSN)MikeCopa]

no. its real easy just make all mods in pve like pvp mods. (how they shouldve been from the start.) Then a lot of enemey rebalancing. Only problem is well this kind of stuff takes time.

Just wanted to write the same thing. Take a look at enemy scaling mechanics first, remove mods that make our weapons stronger in terms of damage and introduce utility mods (like PvP) - problem solved.

[SilentCircle]

I like the modding system the way it is now. Just sayin.

[Dillon_J]

Come on bud, huge reworks aren't common in beta, especially those that affect everything. Alpha had that already. It's no fun for the Devs to do that. A history of events with all the special mods suddenly become nothing special. Make all the players rage at the radical changes, all the grinding for x wasted. More posts of 'I want to quit'. 

huge reworks not common? Thats what this game does every 2 or so major updates i.e. Parkour 2.0 Melee 2.0 starchart 2.0 Void 2.0 and list goes on from there.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Dillon_J

[blablark]

huge reworks not common? Thats what this game does every 2 or so major updates i.e. Parkour 2.0 Melee 2.0 starchart 2.0 Void 2.0 and list goes on from there.

Extensions. Animations just got changed. Missions gameplay is still the same and grind is reduced. The rework we are speaking of is bigger than all of these combined since there are hundreds of mods, and it is linked to many things.

Edited September 6, 2015 by blablark

[Marthrym]

Because the enemy scaling is broken since damage 1.0, 

this makes DPS so important, and even worse after damage 2.0

Fix scaling or we don't have balance in PvE.

^This.

 

Enemy scaling has been a plague for Warframe for over a year now, a problem which has only been magnified by all the cheap mechanics implemented this past year, mechanics that remove most of what little gameplay options we had to counter enemy scaling.

Our gear and abilities are static. Barring a very few exceptions, they don't scale. Every enemy in the game uses a scaling system. And that system first makes us Godlike warriors, and then goes crosseyed once it reaches a certain threshold and turns every grunt into an insta-gib HP-bag.

Warframe will NEVER be balanced as long as the devs don't harmonize the ENTIRE PvE aspect around ONE system that would affect both the players and the AI EQUALLY. Huge amounts of resources and time have been spent into tweaking weapons and frames' kits because of this one-sided scaling, this imbalanced core.

 

Starting with enemy scaling is the ONLY correct, logical way to go. Starting with anything that revolves around this broken core is nonsensical, misguided and a waste of time and resources.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Marthrym

[Demdemeh]

Mod rework will be made in order to ensure perfect balance while modding weapons, preserving their original purposes and style.

It will be made with accuracy and dedication taking in consideration as many aspects as possible.

However, more important than everything, these changes will be made in order to screw up all the polarities which will match no more the required mods, driving us to a completely madness. Then, starved of forma bp's to death, forma will become the new age potato and the bestselling tool.

Beware, save your plat...you'll need all of it soon.

[Fifield]

Every enemy in the game uses a scaling system. And that system first makes us Godlike warriors, and then goes crosseyed once it reaches a certain threshold and turns every grunt into an insta-gib HP-bag.

 

Are you saying the scaling should be more gradual?  If so, that's the first coherent argument I've heard about scaling.

 

The point about event mods is a good one.  DE could have a policy of nerfing them after a month.

 

But the real heart of the problem is that nerfing mandatory mods is incredibly unlikely to introduce greater mod choice:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/523934-modframe-and-why-ordinary-nerfs-to-mandatory-mods-wont-increase-mod-variety/

[low1991]

no. its real easy just make all mods in pve like pvp mods. (how they shouldve been from the start.) Then a lot of enemey rebalancing. Only problem is well this kind of stuff takes time.

You spoke like PVP side of WF is balanced.

 

The main problem is the level scaling (Health, Damage, Armor or whatever it is!)

At higher, we will be doing damage reduced by Armor, and further only tickle their overall health!

Thier damage is what squeeze us towards Top-tier DPS. Shorter Combat Window = much safer.

Edited September 6, 2015 by low1991

[S.T.M.P.D]

I disagree. The fact is that these systems are so screwed up that they are the primary source of vitrol on these forums: When people gravitate towards OP stuff and DE nerfs it for the right reasons, the problem is that the underlying problems as to what can become OP and the need for OP stuff still is there.

I think a rework would be worth it. It might change things up, but if we remove mandatory mods, raw stat buffs, and create a different system for that primary progression I think everything could work out.

[Rebellis]

The way I expect multishot to work is every time you fire you have X% chance to fire twice meaning a two-shot burst occurs that consumes ammo and applies additional recoil. For the sake of game balance, a fire rate cap is essential so that slower firing and semi-auto weapons (like snipers, shotguns, and revolvers) are the beneficiary not bullet hoses like Soma P or Supra.

 

Think Zer0's "Tw0 Fang" skill from Borderlands.

[low1991]

The way I expect multishot to work is every time you fire you have X% chance to fire twice meaning a two-shot burst occurs that consumes ammo and applies additional recoil. For the sake of game balance, a fire rate cap is essential so that slower firing and semi-auto weapons (like snipers, shotguns, and revolvers) are the beneficiary not bullet hoses like Soma P or Supra.

 

Think Zer0's "Tw0 Fang" skill from Borderlands.

Problem is...

In BL2, there's surplus amount of ammos! Not for WF, you can only pick up the currently equipped weapons (sniper ammo pickup if equipping sniper).

 

And... in BL2, you can change your equipment mid-fight. Can you for WF?

 

Assume Zero as in BL2.

Edited September 6, 2015 by low1991

[Rebellis]

Problem is...

In BL2, there's surplus amount of ammos! Not for WF, you can only pick up the currently equipped weapons (sniper ammo pickup if equipping sniper).

 

And... in BL2, you can change your equipment mid-fight. Can you for WF?

 

Assume Zero as in BL2.

 

Ammo type is specific in BL2.

 

You can't change weapon loadout mid-fight currently in Warframe, but Warframe has ammo mutation mods and team ammo restores. It also has the issue of letting player's with OP weapons play against noob enemies and kill them with one bullet. If you ever run out of ammo in Warframe, you are terrible.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Rebellis

[akira_him]

Ammo type is specific in BL2.

 

You can't change weapons currently mid-fight in Warframe, but Warframe has ammo mutation mods and team ammo restores. It also has the issue of letting player's with OP weapons play against noob enemies and kill them with one bullet. If you ever run out of ammo in Warframe, you are terrible.

get rid of past must-have multishot,than slap next must-have mutation mod, genius

[Rebellis]

get rid of past must-have multishot,than slap next must-have mutation mod, genius

 

Primed Pistol Mutation.