Mesa+Frost (Toxicity And My Gaming Experience So Far)

[DelialFallen]

I applaud your analysis, but most of what you wrote broke my brain.  I don't know what hurts more: discussing a Co-op game and commenting about balance from a MOBA perspective or your usage of the word toxic.  It's bad enough it bled out of LoL forums to pollute so many other game forums (the term was coined by Riot to describe players whose attitude was particularly disruptive to other gamers so to be considered as contributing to negative growth), but using it as a qualitative to describe something perceived as imbalanced or detrimental to gameplay is discombobulating.

 

Edit: wordinessesings

Edited September 7, 2015 by DelialFallen

[bl4ckhunter]

I've played enough dungeon defenders to understand what you're saying just fine.  But that's not the broken part of the game.  How many 40+ minute games have you been in that don't have a frost present.  I'll take my leave in telling you that, I'm fully aware that if any, not many.  I'm all for 40+ minute games, working as a team to complete the objective.  Synergies, I'm familiar with them.  If that's what we're intending, then tell me why he's the only answer.

couse he's not? you can go past 40min in survival/ 20 waves in intercept just fine with a lot of other frames, for survival smokescreen aug duration ash+ ev trinity/nova/vauban +necros+loki's been a a thing since forever for example, you're saying that you need specific team combinations to get that far? yes and it's fine. you're saying that you need frost/mesa 90% of the time? hell no. i wouldn't even take a mesa in my team for long runs unless you have a total eclipse mirage, and even then in that case there are frames that are there are by far superior choices

Edited September 7, 2015 by bl4ckhunter

[(XBOX)JAMEEL32]

Nice so you were really proud of having 50% of the dmg? You doesnt seem to get the spawning mechanics

You (and all the braindead campers like you) "doesnt" seem to get the fact that all you need to do to optimize the spawns is stay in the same room, not stay in a corner hiding behind a vortex.

Also, if you have a particular plan then either solo or find friends, dont play public lobbies expecting them to care about what you want to do.

[(XBOX)qcevolution]

All these ppl saying mesa prevents you from losing need to solo up a t4 def and only use their ult. I highly doubt u'll even make it to wave 10. See how well it prevents u from losing...

Edited September 7, 2015 by (XB1)qcevolution

[motorfirebox]

I think the issues with Mesa and Frost can be generalized as "press 4 to win". Mesa and Frost are probably the worst offenders, but it's an issue with quite a few frames. Their abilities are very powerful and have very little interactivity.

[bl4ckhunter]

I think the issues with Mesa and Frost can be generalized as "press 4 to win". Mesa and Frost are probably the worst offenders, but it's an issue with quite a few frames. Their abilities are very powerful and have very little interactivity.

mesa i won't argue but frost? press 4 to win? are you sure that you're not talking about saryn, i mean avalanche with lots of duration is good but still it doesn't even come close to other powerful nukes in this game (shield polarize, reckoning, miasma)

[TheBrsrkr]

#1 solution:

Don't. Play. PUGS.

Avoiding the problem is not a solution.

[RazrOutlaw]

mesa i won't argue but frost? press 4 to win? are you sure that you're not talking about saryn, i mean avalanche with lots of duration is good but still it doesn't even come close to other powerful nukes in this game (shield polarize, reckoning, miasma)

I think he referred to snowglobe, at least that was the issue being discussed here, and used "press 4 to win" as an expression, the correct one would be press X button to win.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

....have you realised yet that mesa is basicly a hunter in a game that's full of mages?

The word "aimbot" may sound bad but it's a small benefit compared to straight ae.

If you're a wow player as well: most frames are fire/ice mages/warlocks, dots+dps+CC, saryn is the arcane mage on a burst build while mesa is the hunter.

Have you ever seen a hunter perform better on crouds then a mage? He has the first strike but that's about it. Autoaiming at enemys offers slow damage compared to hitting multiple, both the dps and the damage are bad and the efficiency is pretty close to ember. It burns away your energy real fast. Now, why is it that people still complain about a ability that is obviously much weaker then all the alternatives?

2 answers

*It's boring (beein stationary is in generall)

*It's effective (high range despice all that. Very effective on lower levels)

Nerf her range, buff her dps and rework the ability to a exalted blade alternative (same concept, secondary mod influence, mobile, keep the autoaim) and mesa would become quite a decent pick.

Protection is the equivalent to tanks btw since WF is missing the aggro system. Not rly a issue...

Edited September 8, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[RazrOutlaw]

....have you realised yet that mesa is basicly a hunter in a game that's full of mages?

The word "aimbot" may sound bad but it's a small benefit compared to straight ae.

If you're a wow player as well: most frames are fire/ice mages/warlocks, dots+dps+CC, saryn is the arcane mage on a burst build while mesa is the hunter.

Have you ever seen a hunter perform better on crouds then a mage? He has the first strike but that's about it. Autoaiming at enemys offers slow damage compared to hitting multiple, both the dps and the damage are bad and the efficiency is pretty close to ember. It burns away your energy real fast. Now, why is it that people still complain about a ability that is obviously much weaker then all the alternatives?

2 answers

*It's boring (beein stationary is in generall)

*It's effective (high range despice all that. Very effective on lower levels)

Nerf her range, buff her dps and rework the ability to a exalted blade alternative (same concept, secondary mod influence, mobile, keep the autoaim) and mesa would become quite a decent pick.

Protection is the equivalent to tanks btw since WF is missing the aggro system. Not rly a issue...

First off, the comparasion with moba's isn't quite applicable, since in moba's, you can't pick the same champion/god or whatever twice in the same team, also mesa isn't a hunter, or an adc. Peacemaker was designed to help and/or wave clear in defense missions, and it's working as intended, what's going to happen with mesa is the same that happened to lots of weapons, It's gonna get replaced with something better, rendering her useless, we just need to wait.

PS: No, people needs to stop asking for the exalted pistols, that'd be way too overpowered, and we don't need the same ability twice.

Also, peacemaker is boring for some, I like looking at mesa's animations, and could stay 30 min just looking at it, even if the damage isn't being dealt, just for the sake of the animation, I personally would, but only in solo.

 

Disclaimer: I really don't use peacemaker that much, I use mesa for every mission I play, and running with a no duration peacemaker focus build would be suicide.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

First off, the comparasion with moba's isn't quite applicable, since in moba's, you can't pick the same champion/god or whatever twice in the same team, also mesa isn't a hunter, or an adc. Peacemaker was designed to help and/or wave clear in defense missions, and it's working as intended, what's going to happen with mesa is the same that happened to lots of weapons, It's gonna get replaced with something better, rendering her useless, we just need to wait.

PS: No, people needs to stop asking for the exalted pistols, that'd be way too overpowered, and we don't need the same ability twice.

Also, peacemaker is boring for some, I like looking at mesa's animations, and could stay 30 min just looking at it, even if the damage isn't being dealt, just for the sake of the animation, I personally would, but only in solo.

Disclaimer: I really don't use peacemaker that much, I use mesa for every mission I play, and running with a no duration peacemaker focus build would be suicide.

WoW, World of Warcraft, not moba.

You have the same kinda benefits there. Multishots/arrow rain, slower ae damage on a higher range while having superior singletarget dps. No risk, less strategic movement on a lower dps on multitargets. Run content with the same HP base and you get the same results as mesa in WF.

The mages there are the archetypes of most frames here. Optional builds offered optional roles. Ice offered high(er) defense and CC on less dps (high range), fire high longtherm dps (midrange), arcane high burst dps (close range), offering high ae and medium singletarget dps (compared to rogues and hunters)

It works as intendet but there's still room for improvement, especially since the community seems to have massive issues with crowd-efficient frames. It was the same bs with excal and ember and i'd prefer to get another excal then another ember at the end of the day...

Edited September 8, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[RazrOutlaw]

WoW, World of Warcraft, not moba.

You have the same kinda benefits there. Multishots/arrow rain, slower ae damage on a higher range while having superior singletarget dps. No risk, less strategic movement on a lower dps on multitargets. Run content with the same HP base and you get the same results as mesa in WF.

The mages there are the archetypes of most frames here. Optional builds offered optional roles. Ice offered high(er) defense and CC on less dps (high range), fire high longtherm dps (midrange), arcane high burst dps (close range), offering high ae and medium singletarget dps (compared to rogues and hunters)

It works as intendet but there's still room for improvement, especially since the community seems to have massive issues with crowd-efficient frames. It was the same bs with excal and ember and i'd prefer to get another excal then another ember at the end of the day...

My mistake then, I'm sorry for that, I play smite and there the adc's are called hunters, so I immediately associated both.

Now moving on to the long proposed rework for peacemaker,everyone that plays excal knows how strong EB is, now, if mesa ults gets reworked like this, she will most likely get even less drain than excalibur, because she wouldn't be able to lifesteal while chanelling her ult, like excalibur does, so you'll need the extra energy to cast shooting gallery & shatter shield in order to improve your survivability, also making it like excalibur's EB would mean that mesa's gonna be able to cast all of her abilities while her ult is toggled, do you imagine the power of Ballistic battery?, not to mention how secondary mods are broken, and some secondary's are even better than primary weapons, imagine you run a mesa, with full efficiency, max transient fortitude + intensify, with a max arcane awakening on her helmet + her syandana, and with a lex prime (71.8% crit chance, 3.2x crit multiplier, 6k base damage with elemental and physical damages) and add ballistic battery to the mix, yes, it'll make her more "fun" to play for some people, but for the ones that like the gunkata, having another exalted blade is boring and would probably make them stop using her, mesa's peacemaker is different from all the other DPS abilities in the game, It has it's uniqueness, even if you prefer another excal, maybe there are other players that prefer another ember (I'm not one of those, since excalibur is my most used frame and I'd take him over ember anyday).

Edited September 8, 2015 by RazrOutlaw

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

My mistake then, I'm sorry for that, I play smite and there the adc's are called hunters, so I immediately associated both.

Now moving on to the long proposed rework for peacemaker,everyone that plays excal knows how strong EB is, now, if mesa ults gets reworked like this, she will most likely get even less drain than excalibur, because she wouldn't be able to lifesteal while chanelling her ult, like excalibur does, so you'll need the extra energy to cast shooting gallery & shatter shield in order to improve your survivability, also making it like excalibur's EB would mean that mesa's gonna be able to cast all of her abilities while her ult is toggled, do you imagine the power of Ballistic battery?, not to mention how secondary mods are broken, and some secondary's are even better than primary weapons, imagine you run a mesa, with full efficiency, max transient fortitude + intensify, with a max arcane awakening on her helmet + her syandana, and with a lex prime (71.8% crit chance, 3.2x crit multiplier, 6k base damage with elemental and physical damages) and add ballistic battery to the mix, yes, it'll make her more "fun" to play for some people, but for the ones that like the gunkata, having another exalted blade is boring and would probably make them stop using her, mesa's peacemaker is different from all the other DPS abilities in the game, It has it's uniqueness, even if you prefer another excal, maybe there are other players that prefer another ember (I'm not one of those, since excalibur is my most used frame and I'd take him over ember anyday).

Not only the most used...ember is effectively broken as she is. And making mesa to another ember would actually be a logical step since she allready has a lotta duration in her kit. This step would ruin her as offensive frame as well (by effectively influencung the poissible setups... you'd have to replace something with duration, even effectively run a survival setup to use peacemaker, runing the possibility to use specific builds, keeping the existing playstyle on the same setup on still worse efficiency) while a exal rework would offer a great synergy with her kit.

Immagine playing her on a duration setup, ya know, medium range, high duration, pretty low strength but a pretty badass dps out with her peacemaker as gunmode. I'd leave the exact balancing to DE but i see this as great possibility.

Edited September 8, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[RazrOutlaw]

Not only the most used...ember is effectively broken as she is. And making mesa to another ember would actually be a logical step since she allready has a lotta duration in her kit. This step would ruin her as offensive frame as well while a exal rework would offer a great synergy with her kit.

Immagine playing her on a duration setup, ya know, medium range, high duration, pretty low strength but a pretty badass dps out with her peacemaker as gunmode. I see this as great possibility.

That's the build I run on her, high duration, with good range, and only intensify to get 95% reduction on shatter shield, having all this, and peacemaker's dps with no downside seems pretty op for my taste

The problem with ember is that duration is needed for 3 out of her 4 skills, what needs to happen it's to remove the drain from world on fire, or remove the duration (but if this happens it'll hurt the synergy of WoF with the rest of her kit) I remember I used to run ember with little to no efficiency and have my WoF last for 20 seconds, it was a great ability, making it both duration and drained killed WoF for me.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

That's the build I run on her, high duration, with good range, and only intensify to get 95% reduction on shatter shield, having all this, and peacemaker's dps with no downside seems pretty op for my taste

The problem with ember is that duration is needed for 3 out of her 4 skills, what needs to happen it's to remove the drain from world on fire, or remove the duration (but if this happens it'll hurt the synergy of WoF with the rest of her kit) I remember I used to run ember with little to no efficiency and have my WoF last for 20 seconds, it was a great ability, making it both duration and drained killed WoF for me.

So do i but would you prefer less efficiency on the same peacemaker execution(actually as only option) over a good execution that works hand in hand with this setup? This still leaves room for very specific max dps builds but these would just be usefull for very specific uses (same as now only less ae effective with stronger damage, moving her from a farmbot to a actuall DD) while effectively buffing mixed builds.

You can't stop a movement but you can definitly change the direction.

Edited September 8, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

Mesa is only overpowered up untill a certain point, and since 90% of the warframe community are to scared to progress into late game where you can die from 1 bullet and takes insane amount of damage to take down just one heavy, then am not surprised everyone crys about mesa, because players smart enough know that mesa is useless when it really matters.

Edited September 8, 2015 by (PS4)Veg1ta

[Marthrym]

All I read in your post OP is utter disrespect, contempt and scorn for anyone who would ever dare to disagree with you ever so slightly. Which doesn't really help giving any credit to your personal opinion, opinion that isn't more important or valid than anyone else's by the way.

[Dom1nati0n]

All I read in your post OP is utter disrespect, contempt and scorn for anyone who would ever dare to disagree with you ever so slightly. Which doesn't really help giving any credit to your personal opinion, opinion that isn't more important or valid than anyone else's by the way.

This post doesn't require validation, however I would like to comment that I've been openly discussing the issues I believe are the topic of this conversation with people in a polite yet perhaps debate style of argument.  Yet I have not discounted any opinions and if you had actually read my post, you might have realized that it's a jest poked at a problem in a game that I am a huge fan of.  You shouldn't bother posting if your negative attitude is so severe that you fail to see that.  There is nothing malicious about my opinion, or my post, it's a video game sir, and I fully intend to make light of it at my own leisure.  And I fully appreciate other people taking their time to post suggestions and their opinions as well.  And when I find time later today I will be replying to plenty of interesting discussion the topic has generated. 

[Avarice-Syn]

First off OP, I laughed my butt off SO FREAKING HARD. +1 humor on a touchy subject and foresight, because community has definitely crafted the torches.

 

That being said, I think the subject is less about hacking down Frost and more about the typical frustrations about public games and team building. As someone with 16 Warframes, no friends, and a ghost clan, pubs are all I can really get into. Currently all people ever look for in recruiting channel are Frost, Mesa, and Trinity. I see this for Raids, Defense, Draco, Survival.. Anything that I really want to get into. Really the only freedom you have in choosing a frame to play with is in run and gun missions like exterminate, capture, sabotage, whatever.

 

It's nice to have a multitude of options for different roles. No one asks for Saryn, Ember, or Volt for DPS. No one asks for Equinox, Hydroid, Mag, or Rhino for supportive/buffs. When's the last time anyone asked for Limbo on anything? Or Banshee. Or Zephyr.

 

If you don't play Frost, Trinity, or Mesa, you're pretty much stuck begging either for people to stay in your hosted group despite taking a frame they don't believe in, or praying you can get in one.

 

Honestly, there really are few other choices. Frost really is hands down the best frame to have around for defense. Enemies can still shoot through Vauban's defenses, fewer people play Limbo than Vauban so it's not even worth mentioning. Frames just need more options to be on equal footing and I am really hopeful that Focus fixes a lot of these issues, making teams more diversified for endless modes.

 

I think the only frame that seriously needs a rework is Trinity, simply because she is ridiculously boring to play.

[CaveCricket48]

Frost being mandatory for endless defense? I guess my favorite frame is too

 

*sunglasses*

 

Low key.

[smithf]

TL;DR at bottom.

 

just a more neutral comment:

 

Part of the "problem" may be with the mission type as well.  Instead of trying to find a solution by fudging on the frame side, it may be possible to find hints of a solution on the mission side as well.

 

e.g. we could have asked: how to make the mission such that it is not too 'boring' for Mesa/Frost?

 

Personally, I have no problems with having them in the team: I don't really feel that having them or not makes the game's interest/fun factor fluctuate that much (which once again, hint that the main 'problem' may not be the frames).

 

And I am grateful to Mesa/Frost in the squad who protects the objectives when I play (if I am not playing them). There is always something to do, like when Mesa is ulting, gotta keep an eye out for nullifiers to take them out. For Frost globing means there is a relatively (just relatively) safe place to fall back to.  And the best part? It gives the rest of the team some free attention to talk about stuff in squad chat. And frankly speaking, I find that I enjoy a game where squad members make small chat than one super-silent-super-efficient-clockwork-synergetic-master-tenno-terminator team.

 

Usually though, I just go into such missions (PUG or otherwise) without a planned squad and work out something dynamically, than to have a pre-known scripted way of playing before it even begins ;)

 

 

TL;DR:

I feel that Frost and Mesa are just the sacrificial totems here. The problems that were mentioned by OP actually is wider than just a couple of frames/abilities. We should turn part of our attention to the mission itself too.

[--Q--uaint]

So mesa and frost actually don't allow you to lose? THEN GG GUYS, excuse me while I delete all my other warframes, playing 'till wave 40 in T1 defense must be quite an enjoyment,  the combo with mesa, frost & trini is great for defense, wanna know why? peacemaker is designed to deal aoe dps, which is great for wave clearings, thus, it's great for defense, frost snowglobe is designed to protect anything that is inside of it, thus, great for defense, and well, trinity <3, she is perfect, a godlike frame that can provide the team with energy and heal them in a long endurance mission is always welcomed, but what happens when the broken enemy scalling that warframe has kicks in? I'll tell ya, mesa, trini, frost, the snowglobe, the cryopod, your specters, your sentinels,your kubrow, everything gets 1 shotted by a bombard's guided missile ogris, saying a great team comp isn't allowing you to loose only means you are retreating early from the fight.

 

Edit: completely forgot about how not only damage enemy scaling is broken, enemy armor is aswell, if you decide not to run with 4 CP, even if you run with 3, It gets to a point where you need to unload a full clip of your 4 forma soma prime to take out a heavy gunner with only 10% of his armor (3 corrosive proyections = 90% armor)

 

Actually, Specters level with the enemies, and New Loka specters seem to make it almost impossible to get oneshot as long as you're in their aura.

99% damage reduction does this as well, though that doesn't save the pod....

Also, you could bring Ash/Banshee/Mag to eliminate enemy armor with their augmented abilities.

 

(Also, before Nullifiers were a thing, I would totally have just said "Loki Master Race: your Ogris is invalid, now enjoy your prod.")

[Catastigma]

Nerf Mesa range ult by 75% and all probleme solved....

 

 

For 99% aura armor.. easy.. take Jat kittag and have fun with the CC ... 15 min fight yes... But ... Very Fukingly Funny HAhaha Extra-lolololol boombadaboom

Edited September 9, 2015 by Catastigma

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

Mesa is only overpowered up untill a certain point, and since 90% of the warframe community are to scared to progress into late game where you can die from 1 bullet and takes insane amount of damage to take down just one heavy, then am not surprised everyone crys about mesa, because players smart enough know that mesa is useless when it really matters.

 

i was running an ods today, and around the 45 min mark i was getting one shotted. I was a valkyr with 1140 armor and a max str war cry build that gives me a supposed 142% armor boost. ( not sure how the armor boost is applied but it should be a lot of damage reduction..... ) frost's snow globe acts like a team iron skin so I'm applying to what you said about mesa to frost. Eventually even a strong snow globe gets shredded by high level enemies.

[RazrOutlaw]

Actually, Specters level with the enemies, and New Loka specters seem to make it almost impossible to get oneshot as long as you're in their aura.

99% damage reduction does this as well, though that doesn't save the pod....

Also, you could bring Ash/Banshee/Mag to eliminate enemy armor with their augmented abilities.

 

(Also, before Nullifiers were a thing, I would totally have just said "Loki Master Race: your Ogris is invalid, now enjoy your prod.")

Yeah, I know about how to confront the void, but I was making an example with the frames OP named, mesa & frost, and for some reason my specters seem to be bugged, as they adquire enemy level when I release them, but don't scale at all (if I throw an specter when the enemies are lvl 24, it stays 24 the rest of the game, well, unless it gets killed).

Nullifiers ain't a thing anymore, with a powerthrow glaive or a synoid simulor you can destroy him instantly.