Necromancery Supreme: Bringing Back The Great Zamboni's Modding Thread.

[S.T.M.P.D]

Since everyone's talking about reworking mandatory mods, etc. I thought it'd be a good idea to bring back a thread which suggested a very interesting alternative to modding in terms of progression:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/137875-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe/

Discuss.

IMO the guy's really salty but he gets his point across. I really hate what he proposed for weapons but like his progression system for Warframes - perhaps a hybrid system, with this for progression and modding for customization would work.

Edited September 6, 2015 by S.T.M.P.D

[Brandr_]

I agree with everything that guy said.

[7grims]

He haves a good point, removing or moving away all the mandatory mods for frames and weapons, so we can have space for real modding.

The current mod system is a skill tree, works just like one, since we only use it for upgrading our stats.

 

And the idea of making a side system for these mandatory mods is as good as the idea of removing them all from the game.

DE just need to recognize multishot reworks, and exilus slots, are stupid ideas and band-aids that will not improve at all the big issues.

Edited September 6, 2015 by 7grims

[DrBorris]

Ughhhh, not this again. We all remember when Steve directly called out that thread on a Devstream, and I have to say I agree. What was proposed in that suggestion was great... but not for Warframe. Some smart developer out there should really snatch up a lot of the concepts in there.

 

The stances thing he brought up would be a nice addition (mod cards for stances was a bad move by DE), but that is not really the whole point of his thread.

 

However, when it comes to skill trees and heavily locked mod setups, no thank you. We need a rework of modding in general, but not in a way that removes player choice. I would say that a perfect modding system would only allow for doubling the DPS of a weapon AT MOST. And that would be at major tradeoffs such as accuracy loss and increased ammo consumption.

 

 

But because you are attempting a necromancy, I have no guilt in bringing up my alternative to Zamboni's suggestion where I address the features surrounding the core aspects of Warframe and how they are presented, rather than uprooting the basic functions and mechanics of Warframe along with creating actual player Progression. Progression 2.0, A Complete Rework of the Presentation of Warframe. (Yes, I did knock off Zamboni's title).

 

Edit: As a warning about my post, it is very, very long. But I stand behind its length because in order to "fix" Warframe's scaling you have to do a lot of work in a lot of places.

Edited September 6, 2015 by DrBorris

[SilentCircle]

Yes I remember Steve liking that guys suggestion very much. LOL.

[Owlrrex]

I do not agree with everything Zamboni said. Especially his Attachment-System has its own flaws, I think. His presentation is highly subjective, but I guess that's just the way he is. But he got some points right, I'll credit him for that.

 

The system of the melee-stances with different strikes on the other hand sounds really fun. About the skill trees.... they are very RPG-ish, a wide step away from what warfram is now. It could work, but probably would bring about a great deal of turmoil in the playerbase. 

[jinsaotomex4]

What was proposed in that suggestion was great... but not for Warframe. 

 

The whole "These are some great ideas and would work very well...but not for Warframe" mentality really needs to die.  Warframe is a game that borrows many ideas from many games while putting a "twist" on them which is fine, unfortunately DE always fails to borrow what made the ideas work together in a very tight package in the first place.  Zamboni's post is going to be 2 years old soon-ish and most of the things he brought up are STILL true today, 2 years where the core issues of the game haven't been addressed (and in many instances made worse). At some point DE needs to address them in one way or another or the whole game will just continue to be a shambled mess of ideas with no coherence, no flow, just a collection of incomplete ideas stapled together to form the game we have today. This game has potential to be much, much bigger than it is today and it's been the case since it's inception yet DE hasn't taken many steps to unify everything into one tight package. 

 

And before everyone starts screaming "OMG IT'S A BETA" (even though it's really not, but that's a long post for another time ;) ), that makes my point even stronger. Now is the time to "complain" about the stuff that needs fixing as much as possible and for the playerbase to really speak up.  If DE has no intentions of fixing/addressing certain things, they should just come out and flat out state as much even if it upsets people so people just drop it and move on to some other game or whatever they want to take away from it.  Some players feel like DE is constantly being vague by "admitting" that things need "work" but there's never any clear plans of what the fixes will entice and how those fixes will tie together with the rest of the game.

[Archistopheles]

A lot of us older players are salty at this point. Many of us have left (I know this because I saw them leave), the rest of us throw the salt over our shoulders for good luck, and adapt to this ever-changing rollercoaster ride.

 

On topic though, the devs have a lot of pride in their work (as they should, they deserve it, they've built this successful game from nothing), and because of that, wholly optimized suggestions will get ignored simply because in order to accept them, the devs would have to admit (either consciously or subconsciously) that they were bested by some rando on the interwebz.

 

This is one of many reasons why Zambo's suggestion will never be fully realized. There are a bunch of others involving DE's over-arching principles of design, but I won't go into all of that.

[DrBorris]

The whole "These are some great ideas and would work very well...but not for Warframe" mentality really needs to die.  Warframe is a game that borrows many ideas from many games while putting a "twist" on them which is fine, unfortunately DE always fails to borrow what made the ideas work together in a very tight package in the first place.  Zamboni's post is going to be 2 years old soon-ish and most of the things he brought up are STILL true today, 2 years where the core issues of the game haven't been addressed (and in many instances made worse). At some point DE needs to address them in one way or another or the whole game will just continue to be a shambled mess of ideas with no coherence, no flow, just a collection of incomplete ideas stapled together to form the game we have today. This game has potential to be much, much bigger than it is today and it's been the case since it's inception yet DE hasn't taken many steps to unify everything into one tight package. 

 

And before everyone starts screaming "OMG IT'S A BETA" (even though it's really not, but that's a long post for another time ;) ), that makes my point even stronger. Now is the time to "complain" about the stuff that needs fixing as much as possible and for the playerbase to really speak up.  If DE has no intentions of fixing/addressing certain things, they should just come out and flat out state as much even if it upsets people so people just drop it and move on to some other game or whatever they want to take away from it.  Some players feel like DE is constantly being vague by "admitting" that things need "work" but there's never any clear plans of what the fixes will entice and how those fixes will tie together with the rest of the game.

What? Why would the "this should not be in Warframe" thing die? I hate to say this, but games are different. I would not want CoD style PvP in Warframe and I would make the assumption that most would agree with that. It is the same mindset that makes me say "I don't want that for Warframe". It is not that I am not open to new ideas, I have a bad habit of often posting ideas that are a bit too radical, but there is a certain style that Warframe has evolved around since day 1, and that weapon attachment system is something that undermines that basic idea. Yeah, you can go ahead and say "What? Are you afraid of change?" where I would reply, "Yes, I am afraid of DE changing Warframe at its roots so it is no longer Warframe." The only time I would say Warframe changed its core was Mods 2.0 (when the skill tree died), and that was closed Beta, so it should probably be ignored because obviously DE did not like how that was going. Damage 2.0 was a pretty huge change to modding and weapon balance, but it did not change the basic ideas of how modding a weapon worked, it just completely destroyed any meta there was at the time. The little stuff like Parkour 2.0, Melee 2.0, and even Star Chart 2.0 are just the reworkings of how the basic core of Warframe is presented.

 

Just because Zamboni brought up ideas that are still relevant today does not mean his fixes for those ideas are the best solution. Anyone and everyone saw those issues.

 

I would like to se what you think of my Progression idea/feedback thread. I recently tried to bring up some ideas from it in a more condensed manor in a newer thread, but whining over the multi-shot nerf overpowered feedback on fixing the core issue (I have seen way too many good threads that all bring up equally viable solutions to the core issue die under the loudness of whining).

Edited September 6, 2015 by DrBorris

[jinsaotomex4]

 

What? Why would the "this should not be in Warframe" thing die? I hate to say this, but games are different. I would not want CoD style PvP in Warframe and I would make the assumption that most would agree with that. It is the same mindset that makes me say "I don't want that for Warframe". It is not that I am not open to new ideas, I have a bad habit of often posting ideas that are a bit too radical, but there is a certain style that Warframe has evolved around since day 1, and that weapon attachment system is something that undermines that basic idea. Yeah, you can go ahead and say "What? Are you afraid of change?" where I would reply, "Yes, I am afraid of DE changing Warframe at its roots so it is no longer Warframe." The only time I would say Warframe changed its core was Mods 2.0 (when the skill tree died), and that was closed Beta, so it should probably be ignored because obviously DE did not like how that was going. Damage 2.0 was a pretty huge change to modding and weapon balance, but it did not change the basic ideas of how modding a weapon worked, it just completely destroyed any meta there was at the time. The little stuff like Parkour 2.0, Melee 2.0, and even Star Chart 2.0 are just the reworkings of how the basic core of Warframe is presented.

 

Just because Zamboni brought up ideas that are still relevant today does not mean his fixes for those ideas are the best solution. Anyone and everyone saw those issues.

 

I would like to se what you think of my Progression idea/feedback thread. I recently tried to bring up some ideas from it in a more condensed manor in a newer thread, but whining over the multi-shot nerf overpowered feedback on fixing the core issue (I have seen way too many good threads that all bring up equally viable solutions to the core issue die under the loudness of whining).

Okay, it seems that I came off too strong and I can see how what I said might have come off as an attack on your ideas but my issue is just mainly with the quoted part and not that you personally said it or anything of the sort. 

 

To elaborate some more on what I stated earlier, game modes like Archwing are inferior versions of ZOE/Gundam in multiple ways. What is the point of taking all the time, all the resources, all the testing to add such a mode to the game and have it be a completely inferior and unwanted (going by the amount of people that can actually be found playing those missions) addition to the game? So let's say that DE's intention was to take these ideas and give them the Warframe twist to it, and then what? You now have Warframes with wings going fast but the whole mode is mechanically poor. Some people would argue that "if you like ZOE/Gundam so much, you should just go play those games" which misses the point, trying to emulate things like how the camera works while attacking (melee camera in archwing is terrible), enemy movements and such and releasing the mode in a more complete state would've been much, much better. The whole mode is poorly designed, so they didn't even try to attempt to understand things like combat flow which would have helped the mode, so, so, so much. Yes, taking even more aspects of those games and adding them to Warframe might make it "no longer Warframe" but then my questions would be 1) is it better than before and 2) what is "Warframe" anyway? Note that I am not asking for visuals/storytelling/sound effects (though these need a ton of work)/etc to be anything like the games mentioned above, I am merely asking for better implementations of the combat systems that made those games fun and engaging to play. 

 

Next up is Parkour 2.0 which overall is an improvement visually (my personal dislike of the ballerina twirl, I mean bullet jump aside) but has conflicting issues with the rest of the game which just goes back to my "just a collection of incomplete ideas stapled together to form the game we have today" statement. Parkour 2.0 is sadly inferior to coptering, and not because it is slower.  Parkour 2.0 is inferior to coptering because it made the movement require more button presses for less reward than before and constantly parkouring as fast as possible everywhere has become a bigger chore than before. It improved the game in some ways by greatly increasing your vertical movement options but the unfortunate part is that all the new stuff rarely matters. The tilesets have been designed in such a way that the best thing to do is still just sprint (with rush) and do the aim gliding rolls (since bullet jumping into it increases your momentum). Then you hit a door and there goes all the momentum you had. 

 

As for Zamboni's specific ideas, I don't care much for them save a few. I think for feedback threads that have that much work put into them, the important thing isn't so much how they're trying to fix an issue, but what the issue is and why it needs fixing. If you take a look at many of the feedback threads, you'll just start to see that the same core issues just keep coming up over and over so at some point it stops being "some dude trying to change the game" to "the game has core issues and no matter how many people want change, things barely improve" which can be a bit frustrating. 

 

As of this point, I couldn't even begin to tell you what Warframe is.  It's a game about space ninjas that looks to be inspired by Guyver, where shooting things is magnitudes better and where standing still instead of engaging with the rest of the game is a proper strategy in multiple game modes and said ninjas also happen to be able to twirl like ballerinas to reach higher places, maybe? :-p

 

I'll read your thread in a bit, playing some Killing Floor 2 now. 

[0zryel]

I hate to say it, but in the end ZAMBONI'S predictions about the modding system are becoming a reality... we ARE hitting that WALL with this problem... and his suggestion are a good start to fix that problem.

 

Only thing I would add is that the Foundry/Orokin Lab was upgraded to let you upgrade your Warframes/Weapons, from Normal->To Prisma->To Prime->To Umbra Prime. (This is just an example but you get the idea.)

 

Even if you can built the weapons from scratch with blueprints or still need to get parts etc...there should be an upgrade system for it like they have implemented with some weapons already. This could even be applied with the accessories... 

 

As it stands now everything is getting to a point where you find your self grinding everything for everything...at least with an upgrade system or the system that ZAMBONI proposed we see a bit more relief, I think?

 

NOTE: Did ZAMBONI'S account was close/banned? I tried to check more of his post through his profile but I could not access it O_O

Edited September 7, 2015 by 0zryel

[S.T.M.P.D]

NOTE: Did ZAMBONI'S account was close/banned? I tried to check more of his post through his profile but I could not access it O_O

Archived. Everything he did's so old it no longer can be accessed by conventional means.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Inb4: lock

[S.T.M.P.D]

Inb4: lock

Well S#&$ in my britches! The saltmaster himself has come around to my tiny little corner of the internet, and he's graced me with THE MOST USELESS POST EVER POSTED IN THE HISTRY O' POSTIN'!

Pray tell, what makes this lockworthy? I don't suppose you'd be so kind as to elaborate?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Well S#&$ in my britches! The saltmaster himself has come around to my tiny little corner of the internet, and he's graced me with THE MOST USELESS POST EVER POSTED IN THE HISTRY O' POSTIN'!

Pray tell, what makes this lockworthy? I don't suppose you'd be so kind as to elaborate?

Necroing, making a thread to promote another thread, etc

 

 

 

What? Why would the "this should not be in Warframe" thing die? I hate to say this, but games are different. I would not want CoD style PvP in Warframe and I would make the assumption that most would agree with that.

CoD or Halo style PvP would actually be an improvement.

Edited September 7, 2015 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[DrBorris]

Necroing, making a thread to promote another thread, etc

 

 

 

CoD or Halo style PvP would actually be an improvement.

This is a special case of necroing. The thread being promoted cannot itself be resurrected and what (was) being discussed here was basically a continuation of what was said in hat thread. The reason for rules against necroing and promoting other threads is to encourage the best feedback possible. This is a feedback thread inspired by a past topic.

 

Okay, cool, you want CoD or Halo PvP, just don't forget that there are many people that enjoy Warframe for not being another CoD or Halo.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

This is a special case of necroing. The thread being promoted cannot itself be resurrected and what (was) being discussed here was basically a continuation of what was said in hat thread. The reason for rules against necroing and promoting other threads is to encourage the best feedback possible. This is a feedback thread inspired by a past topic.

 

Okay, cool, you want CoD or Halo PvP, just don't forget that there are many people that enjoy Warframe for not being another CoD or Halo.

I appreciate the PvE being different, but the PvP is a mess from what I have seen.

[DrBorris]

I appreciate the PvE being different, but the PvP is a mess from what I have seen.

The PvP seems to me to have a very good core, but this is coming from the same guy that loved Conclave 1.0 (with honor code enforced). Of course there are OP weapons and abilities, but the Conclave team has been very good about toning that stuff down. When you get in a match that does not involve someone spamming the OP thing of the week, it is pretty good. However, this is off topic... so I am done talking about that.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

The PvP seems to me to have a very good core, but this is coming from the same guy that loved Conclave 1.0 (with honor code enforced). Of course there are OP weapons and abilities, but the Conclave team has been very good about toning that stuff down. When you get in a match that does not involve someone spamming the OP thing of the week, it is pretty good. However, this is off topic... so I am done talking about that.

Personally, I think energy should be treated like kill streaks in PvP.  Get a kill (power kills don't count) - get 25 energy.

[InoxMaximus]

Holy mother OF GOD ! This suggestions are Brilliant. Why is this in the archives ?

[S.T.M.P.D]

Holy mother OF GOD ! This suggestions are Brilliant. Why is this in the archives ?

Too old, too much salt. When it was proposed to Steve he just did not like most of what Zamboni was saying.

You can't seriously like ALL of it, can you? You're actually down with the weapon attachment part? Hokay.

[P0TAT0CANN0N]

Too old, too much salt. When it was proposed to Steve he just did not like most of what Zamboni was saying.

You can't seriously like ALL of it, can you? You're actually down with the weapon attachment part? Hokay.

But I think that was one of the better parts. 

[Archistopheles]

Weapon attachments are lame. Can you imagine attaching anything to the cernos? We aren't dealing with weapons that are designed around having spots for attachments - see sentinels for reference.

[Temfist]

he beat me to it. Though I think his melee combo system might be slightly overdone (no need for custom combos, we already have well animated combo moves, they just need to work really well).

 

I would need to do some more analysis but I like his perk suggestion and the I think weapon attachments is a cool idea, though I'm not sure if it's important enough to be implemented in a game that constantly gets new weapons. I think having a skill tree within weapons similar to the frame suggestion would be a better alternative.

[InoxMaximus]

Too old, too much salt. When it was proposed to Steve he just did not like most of what Zamboni was saying.

You can't seriously like ALL of it, can you? You're actually down with the weapon attachment part? Hokay.

no i dont read it at all. 

 

only thing i can give you is this.

 

http://www.digitalextremes.com/about

 

Scroll to feedback section. Read what it says. Read it again.

 

Let me quote "We understand that growing passionate about any game often means wanting to flex your own creative muscles and share that enthusiasm with us, however our company policy prevents us from accepting any unsolicited ideas for review at this time."

 

Translated: No one cares about you. Least of all DE.

Edited September 8, 2015 by InoxMaximus