Solution Against Runners Without Lowering The Ttk

[Murph_HKM]

The ability to engage/disengage freely is an amazing attribute this game possesses, please don't nerf it.

Though I would certainly support impaired movement on the flag carrier; playing against an asshat who caps 1 time then plays keepaway for 10 minutes is rather annoying.

[Lordricker]

Im pretty sure the devs said they tried slowing the cephalon carrier and didnt like it. 

 

 

Actually ive recently had a few games which has led me to amend what I think.

 

I think that frames with higher HP are an issue, as has been said prior, all frames generally are as quick as each other, but with varying survivability.

 

The games i played were a mixture of good players with Frosts, Rhinos and Ash Primes, these players were good enough to make running away somewhat annoying, when you know they are sitting at arolund 30hp.

 

It seems like anyone that is good plays these frames (or chroma), and it is for the reason you state "all frames generally are as quick as each other". Occasionally ill see other frames played well (nyx, valk, mag) but these are the most common.

 

There needs to be something to make the lighter weaker frames more viable since having a tank doesnt seem to have many downsides. Movement speed seems the most obvious but may not be the best choice.

[Lord_Noctus]

 

as it is now with the tankier frames u dont have any problem of engaging in combat and running away to refill hp. there is no danger in engaging in combat. this is fcked up.

[Aggh]

Running and dueling IS the pace of the game. Just like BF3 is not "slowed down" because you need to run a hundred meters to the frontline. 

 

If fast pace is what you're looking for, there is always COD. 

Bf3 provides vehicles and spawn mechanics that speed up engagement and make running 100m to the frontline generally very quick or unnecessary.

 

Do you think DE shortened match times because they wanted a fast paced running simulator?  Running is part of the meta because of poor balance decisions made on EHP and health drops.  It is not a desirable thing for any kind of shooter that wants to keep players interested.

 

 

 

Im pretty sure the devs said they tried slowing the cephalon carrier and didnt like it. 

 

Pfft the devs did internal testing on melee too and yet we ended up with one shot slide attacks when the 2.0 released. 

 

They let the jat kittag release with that massive AOE. 

 

They released paris prime as a one shot on everything. 

 

They released Daikyu as a one shot on everything. 

 

They released penta as a massive aoe 2 shot. 

 

They put out heightened reflexes without considering how it would work with oberon's ult.

 

I could go on all day listing the broken stuff that has made it through the dev's internal testing.  They are not infallible.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Aggh

[Lordricker]

I could go on all day listing the broken stuff that has made it through the dev's internal testing.  They are not infallible.

 

These are all things that made it through testing that they apparently thought were ok (but were not).

 

I said they tried slowing the cephalon capture and they didnt like it which means it didnt make it through testing. They actaully didnt put something in, probably brought something they didnt want in the game. The devs are not infallible but that doesnt mean you should disrespect their decision.

[Aggh]

These are all things that made it through testing that they apparently thought were ok (but were not).

 

I said they tried slowing the cephalon capture and they didnt like it which means it didnt make it through testing. They actaully didnt put something in, probably brought something they didnt want in the game. The devs are not infallible but that doesnt mean you should disrespect their decision.

Bad decisions can go both ways.  If something that shouldn't have made it through testing did, then it's entirely possible that something that didn't make through testing should have done so.

[elele]

 Running is part of the meta because of poor balance decisions made on EHP and health drops.  It is not a desirable thing for any kind of shooter that wants to keep players interested.

 

Quake

[Lord_Noctus]

Quake

Thats a game with lower ttk and way slower movement

[elele]

Thats a game with lower ttk and way slower movement

 

wot I don't even ...

 

2:01 to 2:10. Ten seconds to kill, with multiple rockets and constant beam, and you think it's "lower ttk" than WF? 

 

Edited September 11, 2015 by elele

[-InV-igo95862]

wot I don't even ...

 

 

You video only confirms that it has lower TTK and slower movement.

[Lordricker]

lower TTK = they take less time to kill and higher TTK = they take more time to kill. Right?

[Lord_Noctus]

lower TTK = they take less time to kill and higher TTK = they take more time to kill. Right?

exactly

[-InV-igo95862]

lower TTK = they take less time to kill and higher TTK = they take more time to kill. Right?

 

Yes, the lower time to kill is more damage weapons do.

[rockscl]

 

jump to 7:45

 

escaping in quake is part of the game too, and theres very high TTKs too, still, if that is desirable or not, is a decision, not a law, also in quake you loot weapons, so your ttk and mechanics are tied to what you can grab instead of what you choose, and dont forget that wf`s chases are happening in 4v4 maps, if there where 1v1 maps the thing should be a lot different

Edited September 11, 2015 by rockscl

[Lord_Noctus]

jump to 7:45

He clearly let him escape he backed up. That beam weapon have perfect accuracy alot dmg and wtf about the clipsize. Look at the projectile weapons dmg was like 45 per hit and rockets are weak as it supposed to be Edited September 11, 2015 by Lord_Noctus

[elele]

You video only confirms that it has lower TTK and slower movement.

 

I'm seeing (at 2:00) 10 seconds of rockets bombardment and beam frying to kill an enemy. If you consider that "lower TTK" than WF, I don't know what to say. 

 

As for "slower movement" that's not even a workable concept. Movement measured by what? Meters? Pixels? Movement relevant to environment or to other players? Do you glide at a high-but-fixed speed or dodge in and out of cover at low-but-erratic speed?

 

 

Anyway, what people can't deny is: 

 

tactical retreat is in Quake,

 

Quake is the God of video games,

 

therefore tactical retreat is good. 

[Lord_Noctus]

Quake is the God of video games,

Yet most played shooter is counterstrike and it have the function i mentioned at the beginning.

[-InV-igo95862]

 

 

jump to 7:45

 

He did not chase because it was dangerous, the other player was spamming plasma in his direction.

 

 

I'm seeing (at 2:00) 10 seconds of rockets bombardment and beam frying to kill an enemy. If you consider that "lower TTK" than WF, I don't know what to say. 

 

As for "slower movement" that's not even a workable concept. Movement measured by what? Meters? Pixels? Movement relevant to environment or to other players? Do you glide at a high-but-fixed speed or dodge in and out of cover at low-but-erratic speed?

 

 

Anyway, what people can't deny is: 

 

tactical retreat is in Quake,

 

Quake is the God of video games,

 

therefore tactical retreat is good. 

 

10 rocket from which only few connected with splash.

 

3:07 Only 0.3 seconds of laser and then one shot from rail gun.

 

You can clearly see there is no vertical movement involved unless you fall down somewhere. Warframe is full of both horizontal and vertical movement.

 

There is no tactical retreat in the videos. There is only tactical not engagement. Both players try not to chase each other as it is predictable and easy to punish.

 

"Quake is the God of video games" - this is yours opinion. For other people Unreal Tournament or Counter Strike are "God of video games"

[rockscl]

i dont know what you want to get from discrediting escapes in quake, because like i said, warframe`s 1v1 chases are happening in 4v4 maps, also the whole issue starts wrong since the matchmaking and the lack of dedicated servers, the only thing that this whole community should be asking for, what does matchmaking have to do with running?: if you have players of a similar level they will have similar parkour vs gunning level and they will be able to work together to corner a weakened enemy instead of one being carried by the other chase after chase

 

btw, i dont agree with reducing movement on damage, i think that is covered with abilities, just like in quake is covered with looted weapons that reduce ttk

Edited September 11, 2015 by rockscl

[Lordricker]

So are there any other ideas for the high EHP frames vs the low EHP frames because they pretty much have the same mobility which gives pretty much no reason to use a weaker frame?

[elele]

"Quake is the God of video games" - this is yours opinion. For other people Unreal Tournament or Counter Strike are "God of video games"

 

Let's not bring CS into the discussion because it's clearly in an irrelevant genre (just like we don't talk about Starcraft here). 

 

As for UT, OK it's also the God of video games. Who says video games can only have one god ...

 

UT also has tactical retreat -- this video, filled with players taking shots, running away, coming back, etc.: 

 

[elele]

So are there any other ideas for the high EHP frames vs the low EHP frames because they pretty much have the same mobility which gives pretty much no reason to use a weaker frame?

 

Weaker frames should have better abilities, e.g. Mag has better abilities than Ash or Rhino. Excalibur (used to) have better abilities than Rhino or Frost.

 

But the forum has more complaints about abilities than about EHP. So abilities are constantly nerfed and nerfed and nerfed to the point that every frame has mediocre abilities. 

[Lord_Noctus]

Let's not bring CS into the discussion because it's clearly in an irrelevant genre (just like we don't talk about Starcraft here). 

 

As for UT, OK it's also the God of video games. Who says video games can only have one god ...

 

UT also has tactical retreat -- this video, filled with players taking shots, running away, coming back, etc.: 

 

on a sidenote that game have waay lower ttk than warframe

Weaker frames should have better abilities, e.g. Mag has better abilities than Ash or Rhino. Excalibur (used to) have better abilities than Rhino or Frost.

 

But the forum has more complaints about abilities than about EHP. So abilities are constantly nerfed and nerfed and nerfed to the point that every frame has mediocre abilities. 

main problem are the tanky frames its too easy to escape with them from combat. talking about ash p valk frost rhino chroma

[Lordricker]

Im not really sure that unbalancing abilities is the best way to balance tank vs weaker frames, just cause im a tank doesnt mean i dont want abilities.

[sappinmahsentry]

Another game that has a speed difference between in and out of combat is Firefall and I honestly don't like that mechanism.

 

New players don't parcour a lot. Meaning they don't have to worry about runners that much if they get paired against new comers as well. Skilled players, on the other hand, can land a hit on you no matter how crazy you move around. 

 

I'd say we just need a proper matchmaking system.

Once in a while, skilled players could still be paired with new players if there aren't enough rooms. Just need to keep it to a minimum.

Matchmaking should be based on a ton of things, such as K/D, your weapons, your rank, and your time in PvP played.