Let's Talk Duplex Triggers.

[sappinmahsentry]

Not everybody has a middle mouse button, binding it to alt fire again would be what's needed.

[i_Lex]

I've absolutley no problem with the fire machanic on this weapon

Edited September 18, 2015 by sniperbro-captian-PS

[MirageKnight]

Good for you, but it doesn't change the fact that quite a few other people have a problem with the fire mechanic.

[Thumper3]

That first line isn't very fair, as telling someone 'just don't use it' isn't a good response to feedback. "Mesa is boring for teamplay." "Well then just don't play with Mesa." That doesn't change that lots of people find Mesa boring for teamplay.

Let me turn it around on you.

What about the people who DON'T think there is a problem with these things? You are approaching the topic as "I don't like something, but I want to use it anyway, so make it the way I like it...." and that ignores the fact that others like the current design.

So tell me why YOUR desires and needs are greater/more important than others?

Sometimes we may not like our options in life, but that doesn't change the fact that they are the only options we have. As many have suggested, there is no NEED to use Tigris in the game. It is not the best weapon, it is not the only weapon, so if you don't like it....don't use it.

There are many things in life I dislike, I hate the COD games, maybe I should have them redesign them so I like them....ignoring all the people who play them as is.

[theammostore]

Let me turn it around on you.

What about the people who DON'T think there is a problem with these things? You are approaching the topic as "I don't like something, but I want to use it anyway, so make it the way I like it...." and that ignores the fact that others like the current design.

So tell me why YOUR desires and needs are greater/more important than others?

Sometimes we may not like our options in life, but that doesn't change the fact that they are the only options we have. As many have suggested, there is no NEED to use Tigris in the game. It is not the best weapon, it is not the only weapon, so if you don't like it....don't use it.

There are many things in life I dislike, I hate the COD games, maybe I should have them redesign them so I like them....ignoring all the people who play them as is.

Actually I'm approaching this topic as the Tigris' duplex-auto trigger is perfectly fine as it is currently. I defended it earlier in the thread if you looked around. What I'm in favor of is an alternative fire for the people who want it. What I want, even though I know DE will not do it, is to make an addition to the shotgun so people who want to enjoy it can enjoy it.

 

Why is that more important? It expands the gun into a larger availability and allows people to ease themselves onto the shotgun and learn it's trigger without having to just deal with this at-first-unintuitive trigger design.

 

It may not be the best weapon in the game, but it's certainly one of them. Sancti version even more

 

Having them fundamentally change CoD isn't the right way to go, but if you don't like the current design then suggest additions or a new game design. Get people onto that idea, show the devs that's what a significant amount of people want. You may just get your wish

[Raidrak]

Actually I'm approaching this topic as the Tigris' duplex-auto trigger is perfectly fine as it is currently. I defended it earlier in the thread if you looked around. What I'm in favor of is an alternative fire for the people who want it. What I want, even though I know DE will not do it, is to make an addition to the shotgun so people who want to enjoy it can enjoy it.

I dislike the duplex-auto since for me a boomstick should work differently, it should have the ability to shoot both shells at same time. This is, by the way, the reason I don't use the tigris and was pissed off with the way it work in Warframe. DE introduce the gimmick trigger due the lack of an alt fire key, allied with the possibility of a weird quad-shot tigris. 

 

I do understand why they made it that way and also understand that the trigger not only work, but work quite well tbh. But, I still think the trigger is an odd mechanic in this game. When the alt fire was finally made into the game, tigris got that weird bug, this dosn't make me rebuild it since after some reasearch, I got to know that the gun was working in an odd way while using the alt fire. To be honest, I'm not a big fan of turning bugs and glitches into features, but in this case, as this quote from theammostore, the bug could make people who dislike the actual trigger enjoy the only boomstick in Warframe.

 

I am aware that DE will not change the trigger nor add a secondary semi-auto fire, but allowing people to shoot a single shell as a semi-auto would not hurt the duplex-auto, both can work along without need to erase the duplex-auto people are so fond of. The gun would work as this: alt fire key for a single shell and fire key for duplex-auto, both people can be happy.

 

I doubt I would use the gun anyway since it would still be an emulation of a double shell shot. 

 

Before any one start pestering me about my other posts, if was for me to decide the trigger would be reworked and the gun would have a real alt fire. For me tigris is not a boomstick.

[Otaiken]

Well, for people currently disliking duplex auto -> this would be a positive change

 

For people who like it -> this change won't really affect them?

 

 

With Tigris you could just double tap the mouse to get the same effect as duplex auto. Or you could bind alt-fire to fire both barrels at once. The only difference is that you don't have to hold the button.

 

So the argument boils down to: Holding the LMB for a long time (or having to reload) is uncomfortable AND/OR clunky   VS   I prefer to hold down left mouse button after the first shot because ... (?)

 

Maybe you could argue the loss of firerate. Though I'm not sure this change would affect firerate. Even then it could be easily solved.

 

So yeah, imho the two sides of this issue are simply not on equal footing. Having to hold LMB being kinda dumb is a legitimate issue. Not having to do that is not an issue. Or at least I don't see how it could be. Where is the counter argument here?

 

 

So my question is this: What benefit does duplex auto provide over simpler controls? As in ergonomical ,gameplay, etc. benefits.

 

I can provide my argument: The tension on the finger makes my mouse movements less precise as I use claw grip (which is 1 of 2 absolutely legitimate way to use a mouse, preference). How would removing this problem for me negatively affect people that do not "suffer" from the same issue?

Edited September 18, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[Trichouette]

I prefer to hold down the click and release to fire the second shot because i'm used to it and i find it useful.

Some people in this thread really CAN'T understand that some other people like me actually like that mechanic. If you don't like it just play with the hek or another shotgun seriously...

[Otaiken]

I prefer to hold down the click and release to fire the second shot because i'm used to it and i find it useful. Some people in this thread really CAN'T understand that some other people like me actually like that mechanic. If you don't like it just play with the hek or another shotgun seriously...

 

It isn't objectively useful though.

 

I'm trying to remove the "taste" factor from this discussion cause it obviously didn't get you anywhere so far.

 

Also, it's kinda hard to take "I'm used to it" as an argument after seeing people berate otheres for "failing to get used to it" or refusing something new just because it's new.

 

So my question still stands: After removing the "git gud" elitism and other pointless fluff tell me objective reason why duplex auto is from a gameplay or ergonomical standpoint preferrable to typical controls. Unless you do that your assertion that your side and the other side are on equal footing with their arguments or needs or such is simply false. Because that would mean opposing a positive change (for others) that has no impact on yourself.

 

Also, I don't really care much either way, but I'm kinda baffled by some of the posts here. Though to be fair I'm also kinda baffled why DE sticks to this mechanic, because they haven't been able to explain its existence and how it benefits gameplay either.

 

EDIT: I came up with a possible reason. Duplex auto ensures that player always either fires both rounds or is forced to reload eventually. Well... unless they hold the button for eternity... anyway. The question now is just why is that important to the game somehow. Hmm, I need to get to the bottom of this...

 

EDIT2: OMG I GOT IT! Funnel money into healthcare through Carpal Tunnel Syndrome treatments increase!! Wait... Canada... socialized healthcare... dammit... be right back...

Edited September 18, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[Bobtm]

It isn't objectively useful though.

Sorry to break it to you, but it actually is objectively useful. It's literally impossible to click twice faster than it is to click once. Duplex-Auto in its current form allows for the fastest possible set of sequential shots while also allowing a player to delay a second shot to their need.

From a physicality standpoint there's nothing mechanically difficult nor clunky about using Duplex-Auto, at all. People seem to claim there is something off about it but there isn't. What is different is the mindset behind the trigger mechanism, it makes you think a little differently. This is why folks don't like it, because it isn't normal.

lso, I don't really care much either way, but I'm kinda baffled by some of the posts here. Though to be fair I'm also kinda baffled why DE sticks to this mechanic, because they haven't been able to explain its existence and how it benefits gameplay either.

EDIT: I came up with a possible reason. Duplex auto ensures that player always either fires both rounds or is forced to reload eventually.

Trying to be funny and/or mocking the other party whom have differing viewpoints from your own isn't exactly a way to make a strong argument.

The reason I like Duplex-Auto is because it's the fastest possible way of utilizing a two-shot mechanic of this nature while keeping it bound to a single button. This is, for me, infinitely easier than any type of two-button system and it allows me to control the gun perfectly. Beyond that it's also snappy/responsive and enjoyable atop being interesting because it's unique.

That's why I'm entirely opposed to these changes as they're always straight nerfs to the gun since everyone wants to move Duplex-Auto off of the primary trigger functionality. What they refuse to realize however, is that this trigger mechanism is objectively better (faster, less mechanically intensive, uses fewer buttons, and fewer fingers) than their own opinionated version.

There is no reason to remove or change Duplex-Auto at all. If folks want a more standard "double-barreled shotgun" then by all means ask for one to be added to the game. Don't ruin an existing gun, that's just selfish.

[Flamingfighter]

A big issue I have with the current trigger is that it is woefully inconsistent. Oftentimes I shoot one bullet and by the time I release it, the other bullet does not come out. The mechanic arbitrarily turns off with no warning. Things like sliding, rolling, and sometimes it looks like even jumping can turn the trigger off meaning no fire when you release. The community was in love with the Tigris when the alt-fire bug happened, and it was deliberately removed afterwards. I understand that the hold mechanic is its gimmick, but that's a gimmick even for double-barreled shotguns, and there are no other in-game variants of a double-barrel to justify further removing it. It is my one complaint about the weapon since I started actively using it as my primary of choice. Personally I like all the suggestions currently in the OP for alternatives to this existing mechanic.

[theammostore]

A big issue I have with the current trigger is that it is woefully inconsistent. Oftentimes I shoot one bullet and by the time I release it, the other bullet does not come out. The mechanic arbitrarily turns off with no warning. Things like sliding, rolling, and sometimes it looks like even jumping can turn the trigger off meaning no fire when you release. The community was in love with the Tigris when the alt-fire bug happened, and it was deliberately removed afterwards. I understand that the hold mechanic is its gimmick, but that's a gimmick even for double-barreled shotguns, and there are no other in-game variants of a double-barrel to justify further removing it. It is my one complaint about the weapon since I started actively using it as my primary of choice. Personally I like all the suggestions currently in the OP for alternatives to this existing mechanic.

We know about how the mechanic turns off. It may very well be intended, I've yet to see any kind of comment from DE on that topic. You may consider it inconsistent, but since we know what causes it and that it's 100% certainty what actions cause this effect, i'd say it's not inconsistent and instead a feature. 

 

It isn't objectively useful though.

 

I'm trying to remove the "taste" factor from this discussion cause it obviously didn't get you anywhere so far.

 

Also, it's kinda hard to take "I'm used to it" as an argument after seeing people berate otheres for "failing to get used to it" or refusing something new just because it's new.

 

So my question still stands: After removing the "git gud" elitism and other pointless fluff tell me objective reason why duplex auto is from a gameplay or ergonomical standpoint preferrable to typical controls. Unless you do that your assertion that your side and the other side are on equal footing with their arguments or needs or such is simply false. Because that would mean opposing a positive change (for others) that has no impact on yourself.

 

Also, I don't really care much either way, but I'm kinda baffled by some of the posts here. Though to be fair I'm also kinda baffled why DE sticks to this mechanic, because they haven't been able to explain its existence and how it benefits gameplay either.

 

EDIT: I came up with a possible reason. Duplex auto ensures that player always either fires both rounds or is forced to reload eventually. Well... unless they hold the button for eternity... anyway. The question now is just why is that important to the game somehow. Hmm, I need to get to the bottom of this...

 

EDIT2: OMG I GOT IT! Funnel money into healthcare through Carpal Tunnel Syndrome treatments increase!! Wait... Canada... socialized healthcare... dammit... be right back...

It is objectively useful. Stop mocking, you're making a fool of yourself. Now, so you say you have an issue with the trigger due to your hand, but do you have trouble with charge weapons or held trigger weapons? If yes, then you may want to ask for an alternative method of control for all of those weapons in general. If not, then why are you singling out the tigris.

 

Well, for people currently disliking duplex auto -> this would be a positive change

 

For people who like it -> this change won't really affect them?

 

 

With Tigris you could just double tap the mouse to get the same effect as duplex auto. Or you could bind alt-fire to fire both barrels at once. The only difference is that you don't have to hold the button.

 

So the argument boils down to: Holding the LMB for a long time (or having to reload) is uncomfortable AND/OR clunky   VS   I prefer to hold down left mouse button after the first shot because ... (?)

 

Maybe you could argue the loss of firerate. Though I'm not sure this change would affect firerate. Even then it could be easily solved.

 

So yeah, imho the two sides of this issue are simply not on equal footing. Having to hold LMB being kinda dumb is a legitimate issue. Not having to do that is not an issue. Or at least I don't see how it could be. Where is the counter argument here?

 

 

So my question is this: What benefit does duplex auto provide over simpler controls? As in ergonomical ,gameplay, etc. benefits.

 

I can provide my argument: The tension on the finger makes my mouse movements less precise as I use claw grip (which is 1 of 2 absolutely legitimate way to use a mouse, preference). How would removing this problem for me negatively affect people that do not "suffer" from the same issue?

Okay, click once. Like normal. Time how long it takes you to naturally click in and release. Once that time is found out, please try to double click faster than that time. If you cannot do it repeatedly, then you have just proven there would be a firerate loss, which is something that makes the Tigris nice. You can instant kill the tougher enemies, and pace your shots for the weaker ones. 

 

Duplex auto proves for a faster and, once you learn it, more intuitive and fluid control over your two shots. As I said, quick tap for heavy targets to just be vaporized, and slower click to take down weaker mobs unless you want to waste a single round that means very little in terms of ammo economy (as i stated in a previous post)

 

The only thing going against duplex trigger is that it can cause your hand to cramp up if you hold the trigger for a long period of time, but that has it's workarounds and ultimately means very little. Shotgun ammo reloads ten at a time minimum. The Tigris should be killing one large target per mag or at least two small enemies per mag. Shotgun ammo is not that rare. You will need to get extremely unlucky with ammo drops, and use no powers that kill, in order to lose ammo with the Tigris. Even more unlucky with the Sancti Tigris due to Purity going off. You should not be holding the trigger down for that long. Not unless you are cold proc'd and you don't want to reload

[Flamingfighter]

We know about how the mechanic turns off. It may very well be intended, I've yet to see any kind of comment from DE on that topic. You may consider it inconsistent, but since we know what causes it and that it's 100% certainty what actions cause this effect, i'd say it's not inconsistent and instead a feature. 

 

 

Not exactly sure about that. These weren't really issues for the Tigris until Parkour 2.0 was unveiled, otherwise the trigger would remain consistent. However, with this new parkour, these strange "features" start showing up. It seems kind of backwards that you will state outright that the hold mechanic is here to stay and then turn around and make it so that if you do some parkour you suddenly do not have to hold the trigger. Also, note that I said that the trigger sometimes turns off when doing things like jumping. Not all the time. Sometimes I jump/bullet-jump and the trigger still holds, other times it doesn't. I can't seem to find any when or why as to how it translates into turning off the hold, so that's why I'm saying it's inconsistent.

[theammostore]

Not exactly sure about that. These weren't really issues for the Tigris until Parkour 2.0 was unveiled, otherwise the trigger would remain consistent. However, with this new parkour, these strange "features" start showing up. It seems kind of backwards that you will state outright that the hold mechanic is here to stay and then turn around and make it so that if you do some parkour you suddenly do not have to hold the trigger. Also, note that I said that the trigger sometimes turns off when doing things like jumping. Not all the time. Sometimes I jump/bullet-jump and the trigger still holds, other times it doesn't. I can't seem to find any when or why as to how it translates into turning off the hold, so that's why I'm saying it's inconsistent.

I'll have to research into that. I've yet to see that happen. Not saying you are wrong, just yet to see it happen to anyone

[Raidrak]

There is no reason to remove or change Duplex-Auto at all. If folks want a more standard "double-barreled shotgun" then by all means ask for one to be added to the game. Don't ruin an existing gun, that's just selfish.

You can defend your beloved trigger all you want, it can even be efficient and unique for the die-hard fans, but stop with this argument about asking for a new double-barrel with a different trigger. DE probably will never build another weapon with the boomstick theme, and even if they do will be another weapon with the same trigger.

 

As I mentioned before, to please both sides the addiction of a semi-auto fire for the alternative fire key, akin to the bug that occurred, would make both side happy, nothing would change to the so beloved duplex-auto and the people who wants a "double barreled hek" as you mentioned before. This would give the option to those new people and the ones who dislike the duplex-auto to shoot the gun as semi-auto and try to emulate the feel of a double-shell to the face with a simple click of the duplex-auto, sheesh this would even allow people to migrate to the duplex-auto and maybe even enjoy it.

 

There's no difficult to make that option, but we know DE don't intend to make that bug into a feature, so this also make impossible any iteretion of a new double-barreled shotgun with a classic style. 

[Bobtm]

There's no difficult to make that option, but we know DE don't intend to make that bug into a feature, so this also make impossible any iteretion of a new double-barreled shotgun with a classic style.

So what you're saying is that nothing will change and this whole thread is irrelevant? I'm sorry but even as someone who utterly hates these notions of folks wanting to remove Duplex-Auto, think they too deserve a shotgun which caters to their liking like what myself and others already have with the Tigris.

The part I underlined there is of the most importance as it's blatantly false. There's nothing anywhere about any of this which says DE can't ever add another shotgun which operates in a more normalized manner, at all. Having another Shotgun with Duplex-Auto would be a literal clone of the Tigris but with different stats, and DE has mostly stopped doing copycat weapons outside of melee, where they are more limited in design.

Look at the Daikyu for instance, a Bow which is a touch different from its peers, added after other bows set a precedent. These days DE tends to gravitate towards mechanical differences among weaponry rather than just tweaking a few stats and calling it a day. There isn't anything anywhere which says they can't make a new Shotgun which operates in a manner more well liked by the masses.

I press the argument for adding a new shotgun with new mechanics because that's the only correct solution here. The Tigris won't be getting its bug back, and shouldn't anyways, so that route is a dead horse which gets beat too much. However, new things that work differently from what we already have don't have any inherent limitations.

_____________________

Not exactly sure about that. These weren't really issues for the Tigris until Parkour 2.0 was unveiled, otherwise the trigger would remain consistent. However, with this new parkour, these strange "features" start showing up...

When they first implemented Parkour 2.0 a few different trigger mechanisms broke to some degree. There were sudden and noticable inconsistencies with the Tigris' Duplex-Auto as well as some issues which arose with things like the Active trigger on the Castanas. A lot of animations could lock one out of detonating the Castanas for instance, and other animations caused the Tigris to "stick" so it was odd. However as of a few hotfixes ago both of these issues do appear to have been remedied.

Have you still even very recently had inconsistent performance with Duplex-Auto? I've not noticed anything glaring since the Castanas' issues were rectified, but that doesn't mean they don't still exist.

[Raidrak]

So what you're saying is that nothing will change and this whole thread is irrelevant? I'm sorry but even as someone who utterly hates these notions of folks wanting to remove Duplex-Auto, think they too deserve a shotgun which caters to their liking like what myself and others already have with the Tigris.

The part I underlined there is of the most importance as it's blatantly false. There's nothing anywhere about any of this which says DE can't ever add another shotgun which operates in a more normalized manner, at all. Having another Shotgun with Duplex-Auto would be a literal clone of the Tigris but with different stats, and DE has mostly stopped doing copycat weapons outside of melee, where they are more limited in design.

Look at the Daikyu for instance, a Bow which is a touch different from its peers, added after other bows set a precedent. These days DE tends to gravitate towards mechanical differences among weaponry rather than just tweaking a few stats and calling it a day. There isn't anything anywhere which says they can't make a new Shotgun which operates in a manner more well liked by the masses.

I press the argument for adding a new shotgun with new mechanics because that's the only correct solution here. The Tigris won't be getting its bug back, and shouldn't anyways, so that route is a dead horse which gets beat too much. However, new things that work differently from what we already have don't have any inherent limitations.

To begin with this thread is in fact irrelevant, the tigris will never have its trigger changed and the alt fire bug will never be a feature.

 

Sorry but you talk like an elistist with your trigger. Did you even noticed that I'm one of those who wants a boomstick with a classic mechanic? I'll never have a classic boomstick in warframe, and you know why? Because of this: 

 

Tigris is already an unique weapon, this alone make a new double-barrel an almost impossibility with the new way DE make weapons.

DE still can make a new "boomstick", but it'll mostly certain not differ in the trigger since the duplex-auto is an efficient take on that, I would even expect a new gun with any kind of design to pops up with duplex-auto. 

We can increase the number of shells in the "magazine" of a double-barrel shotgun, that's one of the most stupid thing we can do but the rules in game allows us.

 

I wonder why it hurts you to have that alternative semi-auto fire in the gun. Do you think DE would bring down the power of the gun with this or that the firerate would be affected? Dude stop being overprotective because the uniqueness of your gun's trigger, even the other defensor of duplex-auto thinks that this bug could work in harmony with it if turned into a feature, I'm not talking in get rid or change it anymore, I'm talking in have both modes.

 

Do you know what else could get a duplex-auto? Semi-auto aks, you know those that have a freaking high firerate and could use that lil help with usability. You know what we need to do to alleviate that? A macro or a secondary fire key, same thing someone ask in this thread.

 

And btw, I'm a vectis user, I can easily use the tigris with no problem and I even have a Sancti Tigris, but for me as a KF Support it's break the damn gun's concept, plain simple. And one day if DE make a boomstick with a glorious double barrel to the face by alt key, then I'll be pleased to build it, but sadly it is still almost impossibe to happen.

 

Sorry if I sound harsh, but you get me on my nerves with all this talking about "let duplex-auto alone". What would you do if they actually change the trigger?

Edited September 19, 2015 by Raidrak

[Flamingfighter]

When they first implemented Parkour 2.0 a few different trigger mechanisms broke to some degree. There were sudden and noticable inconsistencies with the Tigris' Duplex-Auto as well as some issues which arose with things like the Active trigger on the Castanas. A lot of animations could lock one out of detonating the Castanas for instance, and other animations caused the Tigris to "stick" so it was odd. However as of a few hotfixes ago both of these issues do appear to have been remedied.

Have you still even very recently had inconsistent performance with Duplex-Auto? I've not noticed anything glaring since the Castanas' issues were rectified, but that doesn't mean they don't still exist.

 

 

I was having these very same issues on the day I posted, as I really enjoy the Tigris (minus the current state of the trigger). I normally run all of my syndicate missions alone so I can look for the Medallions, so I usually have to be more mobile since I don't have another person watching my back. It was so frustrating that it's what primarily spurred me to post on the topic. Nothing is more annoying than holding on to that extra bullet and coming face to face with a heavy gunner, releasing the trigger, nothing happening, and getting subsequently knocked down.

[PAX_NL]

The reason the duplex auto trigger "hangs" on the second shot sometimes is sprinting.

With the new parkour and the removal of stamina, tenno are sprinting all the time to save time on transit. When you sprint some weapon mechanics stop working, all beam weapons for instance don't fire when you sprint.

 

Try letting go of the sprint key before releasing the mouse button and your second shot will fire when you want it to. You can easily tell its caused by the sprint key by trying the folowing when in a mission:

 

Shoot once --> keep holding down mouse button --> start sprinting --> let go of mousebutton --> stop sprinting. You will see that your second shot will fire as soon as you stop holding sprint instead of when you release the mouse button.

 

It makes perfect sense actually, because while running tenno haven't got their weapon raised and would shoot the floor if firing at that time.

 

 

 

More on topic, I personally like the duplex trigger as it is. I can delay the second shot to adjust for recoil or line up a fresh target.

If no target is near I hit R for a quick reload so I don't have to keep holding the mouse button down. Reload shouldn't be that long anyway, its only 2 seconds on the normal tigris without seeking fury or tactical pump installed (and I don't mod shotguns without seeking fury anymore it is so usefull).

[Xardis]

Realy? You think you cant hold your lmb for any leangth of a time? And you want to replace my middle mouse botton with pointless mechanic? This trigger is here to stay and Tygris is one of the best weapons right now. What you say here is to make Boltor have semiauto trigger. I would advocate to use Duplexauto in Sybaris and you would say no just coz you dont like it, on Sybaris it would not make any diffrence for you. I am refering to the original post.

[Bobtm]

I'm not trying to sound elitist about Duplex-Auto, rather it's just that it's genuinely my favorite trigger mechanism within Warframe. Which is why I'm so adamantly against changes to it. No joke here, but I'm still shocked that folks can find this particular mechanism clunky or other such things. It's been an intuitive trigger type to me since the very day I began using the Tigris near its initial implementation so I can't honestly relate to the dislike of it, since it's so far detached from my experiences. I do of course respect that they don't like it, but that begs me to wonder why they can't just stick to weapons who's trigger types they do like? I hate automatic weapons for instance so, rather than asking for Semi-auto on them, I just don't use automatic weapons.

That's just my take on these sorts of things, that there will always be types of guns which some players hate. In fact having guns that are polarizing is a good thing, so long as the bulk of whatever tools are available don't fall into that category. Having outliers means there's a broader level of choice in how to approach stuff, but it doesn't force players to use things they find un-fun.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but you get me on my nerves with all this talking about "let duplex-auto alone". What would you do if they actually change the trigger?

If Duplex-Auto was removed (since there isn't an effective way to change it) I'd probably just not make use of the Tigris/Sancti Tigris much or at all any more. I can accept that there are many guns who's trigger mechanisms I dislike, but I don't ask for them to be changed. Mind you good ol' Semi-Auto is also one of my preferred trigger types, but I'm usually not one to use Shotguns in games. If we had a Duplex-Auto marksman's rifle I'd be all over that like stank on a hobo and I'd rarely use the Tigris.

I wonder why it hurts you to have that alternative semi-auto fire in the gun. Do you think DE would bring down the power of the gun with this or that the firerate would be affected? Dude stop being overprotective because the uniqueness of your gun's trigger, even the other defensor of duplex-auto thinks that this bug could work in harmony with it if turned into a feature, I'm not talking in get rid or change it anymore, I'm talking in have both modes.

I'm actually totally okay with the re-addition of the Semi-Auto alt-fire so long as it doesn't take over the primary trigger type. The issue is that literally 99% of folks who press for changes to the Tigris don't just want that. They instead move forward on that same train of progression and propose that Semi-Auto becomes the primary trigger and then they usually take one more step and just want an alt-fire which automatically discharges both rounds. Basically the majority don't just want alt-fire, they want Duplex-Auto removed.

As long as Duplex-Auto remains the primary trigger mechanism on the Tigris I'm happy, as that's the snappy/precise trigger which I enjoy as the primary fire. Having an alt-fire back on the gun isn't something I'm against at all, as long as that's where the change stops. The alt-fire wouldn't do anything to me at all, so it's nothing to worry about.

Tigris is already an unique weapon, this alone make a new double-barrel an almost impossibility with the new way DE make weapons.

DE still can make a new "boomstick", but it'll mostly certain not differ in the trigger since the duplex-auto is an efficient take on that, I would even expect a new gun with any kind of design to pops up with duplex-auto.

This isn't something we see the same way it would seem. One gun having a specific trigger mechanism doesn't mean no guns can ever be different. For instance we've had automatic rifles which just fire like automatic rifles at their set fire rate. Then we've got automatic rifles which spool up from a lower rate of fire up to their maximum. Just because one thing is first, doesn't mean new things aren't allowed to be different. This same trend of new weapons operating in the same vein of others but with varied mechanics is already clearly present within the game.

What about the Tigris prevents another two-round gun from being Semi-Automatic? Honestly, nothing does. DE aren't tied to arbitrary restrictions on how a new weapon can operate only because something else exists first. On the contrary they're constantly making weapons of the same style but with new and unique mechanics.

I was having these very same issues on the day I posted, as I really enjoy the Tigris (minus the current state of the trigger). I normally run all of my syndicate missions alone so I can look for the Medallions, so I usually have to be more mobile since I don't have another person watching my back. It was so frustrating that it's what primarily spurred me to post on the topic. Nothing is more annoying than holding on to that extra bullet and coming face to face with a heavy gunner, releasing the trigger, nothing happening, and getting subsequently knocked down.

Huh, that really does suck. Hopefully they can get the inconsistencies of the trigger mechanism sorted out.

[Raidrak]

This isn't something we see the same way it would seem. One gun having a specific trigger mechanism doesn't mean no guns can ever be different. For instance we've had automatic rifles which just fire like automatic rifles at their set fire rate. Then we've got automatic rifles which spool up from a lower rate of fire up to their maximum. Just because one thing is first, doesn't mean new things aren't allowed to be different. This same trend of new weapons operating in the same vein of others but with varied mechanics is already clearly present within the game.

What about the Tigris prevents another two-round gun from being Semi-Automatic? Honestly, nothing does. DE aren't tied to arbitrary restrictions on how a new weapon can operate only because something else exists first. On the contrary they're constantly making weapons of the same style but with new and unique mechanic

 

Tigris is not unique due the trigger. From the launch the trigger was a workaround to emulate the double shot and so I don't count it on the uniqueness of the gun, duplex-auto is as its on an unique mechanic and so it mostly certain able to pops up with another weapon, this way I don't tie it to tigris.

 

So, what I mean with being already a unique is that the boomstick esque is a solid model for shotguns and unique on its on, Tigris already fullfill this model, akin to phage on it's unique style and the flak-cannon that is drakgoon as exemples. Another shotgun in the same style, even with a different trigger, would still be a comparated to tigris and even counted as a ripoff of it, so as DE following  the unique itens path I doubt they will make another double-barrel in the future. And yes I know they can just go and build another anyway, but it is still something hard to happen. 

 

There is examples in game of weapons that operate in the same veins, but you forget that some weapons in these situations always outshines the others. Mostly of times those weapons are not sidegrades or if they are, the best one still outshines it. maybe DE will fix it with the massive overhaul that is coming with the change of mandatory mods, and I hope so.

 

I like weapons with unique mechanics such quanta, phage and miter, what I dislike is when there is lot of weapons in the same category where only one is actually usefull. I still lament for my beloved confetti-gun Kohm, I still play it but it lose a lot of it uniqueness.

 

Nowadays we already got asome good examples of unique styles of shotguns.

 

- Tigris the double-barrel boomstick.

- Drakgoon the flak-cannon.

- Phage the "tentacle" gun.

- Kohm, wich lose some of its uniqueness, but it is still the odd unique escalating pellet count spool shotgun. 

 

Those are four examples of primary unique shotguns, half of the shotguns if not accounting variants.

 

You sound like a knowing player, and I think you have understood my point in this particular case, what I mean is that tigris don't need a sister who will be outshined by or surpasses it. In the situation of a different take on the boomstick-esque, like lets say a corpus laser boomstick (this actually sound pretty cool), I would still put the duplex-auto since DE make me feel like they want make it into a burst-shot instead a real double-shot, wich sound too much powerfull and would certain have a lot more spread due the high ammount of pellets.

 

Once again I am sorry but I tend to get upset easily.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Raidrak

[Bobtm]

There's no need to apologize Raidrak, folks having differing opinions on a specific matter is totally an alright thing. You aren't slinging insults or doing anything even moderately inappropriate in any way. There's a different poster on these forums with whom I regularly butt heads, yet I like and respect them regardless of our varied views.

So long as folks can express their thoughts in a proper manner then that's the best kind of discussion. Even if the parties involved end up not seeing eye to eye at all. These kinds of things are what can lead to understanding issues for other angles. Before I go further I'll just make this clear again; I basically don't agree with your stance on this issue, even in the slightest of ways. We couldn't possibly disagree any more than we do on this issue. I do, however, respect you regardless of our differing views.

From the launch the trigger was a workaround to emulate the double shot and so I don't count it on the uniqueness of the gun, duplex-auto is as its on an unique mechanic and so it mostly certain able to pops up with another weapon, this way I don't tie it to tigris.

So, what I mean with being already a unique is that the boomstick esque is a solid model for shotguns and unique on its on, Tigris already fullfill this model, akin to phage on it's unique style and the flak-cannon that is drakgoon as exemples. Another shotgun in the same style, even with a different trigger, would still be a comparated to tigris and even counted as a ripoff of it...

To specifically note the part I underlined & bolded above; Where did you hear this? Nowhere has it been stated that the Tigris' firing mechanic was done to emulate a double-shot instant release. Back when it was released they had the capability to have alt-fire mechanics on guns would they have desired. It wouldn't have been an impossible task to have coded the Tigris as a semi-auto who's alt-fire (at the time it'd have been on Aim) would've been a shot which consumed 2 ammo and fired a double pellet count shot.

Duplex-Auto was designed to be what it is as far as we know. This notion is furthered by the fact that, even now with the more appropriate alt-fire controls, the Tigris has been shown to remain in its current state.

While it's true that another shotgun would be compared to the Tigris, that is already the case for every gun across every style. Folks already directly try comparing the Hek and Tigris for instance, despite the fact that they have different trigger functionality. There's nothing wrong at all about folks wanting to compare various tools, and it's also something that isn't avoidable. That's not (in my opinion) a justifiable reason to not have a shotgun which operates in a different manner but is also double-barreled.

For instance we got the Gammacor and Synoid Gammacor, both being unique in terms of design style as wrist mounted firearms. Then we got the Atomos, which does different things than its predecessors. And we've seen in the most recent Devstream that we'll get another wrist mounted weapon which is still further different than those three. There's nothing stopping DE from throwing more shotguns onto the pile, and there's nothing saying that every double-barreled shotgun has to have Duplex-Auto.

Anytime DE releases anything weaponry wise it's immediately compared to anything and everything folks can even try to liken it to. Such is the mentality of players in a gear-focused game and nothing will ever change that. It's why folks are also constantly asking stuff like "Is ____ better than ____?" in Region chat. Many players have an inherent desire to aim for whatever is "best" before they even try to truly understand the underlying differences in things.

I like weapons with unique mechanics such quanta, phage and miter, what I dislike is when there is lot of weapons in the same category where only one is actually usefull. I still lament for my beloved confetti-gun Kohm, I still play it but it lose a lot of it uniqueness.

Yeah, powercreep indeed is an atrocious thing to see crop up in a game. However another double-barreled shotgun isn't somehow guaranteed to be an upgrade to the Tigris. Shoot if they just copied what the Tigris currently is, but swapped the copy's primary trigger to Semi-Auto and gave it an alt-fire which did the double shot, but at increased spread (by a small amount), we'd already have a side-grade. The current Tigris would still destroy the Semi-Auto variant in terms of immediate burst but the Semi-Auto one would be liked by folks who prefer such a trigger mechanism.

Another double-barreled gun won't invalidate the Tigris, of that I can effectively promise you. Anything that makes the Tigris useless in its wheelhouse would be laughably overpowered and would get a nerf for sure.

___________________

At the end of it all though this isn't some matter of "I'm right and you're wrong." at all. These are my own views on these sorts of issues, combined with examples behind my reasoning. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Raidrak]

To specifically note the part I underlined & bolded above; Where did you hear this? Nowhere has it been stated that the Tigris' firing mechanic was done to emulate a double-shot instant release. Back when it was released they had the capability to have alt-fire mechanics on guns would they have desired. It wouldn't have been an impossible task to have coded the Tigris as a semi-auto who's alt-fire (at the time it'd have been on Aim) would've been a shot which consumed 2 ammo and fired a double pellet count shot.

 

By the time DE introduced the Tigris, the guns with alt fire had some issues with usability. I know that for sure as a Penta user, the alt fire being the same as the aim was a pain back then. 

 

Duplex-auto is not sell as a emulation of a double-barrel shotgun but work exaclty in this intent, take note that I'm not demoralizing it, this trigger allows the player to shoot 2 targets in a rapid movement and also disalodge both shells in quick succession almost in the same way a double shot, back then was the best way to implement it while evading the problems with the alt key. I say that because that issue with alt key/aim was preventing some weapons to actually even have an aim, also make me and some other penta users having to change the toggle aim option every single time we used it, I also use this option and hek that was a big issue to me back then.

 

Duplex-Auto was designed to be what it is as far as we know. This notion is furthered by the fact that, even now with the more appropriate alt-fire controls, the Tigris has been shown to remain in its current state.

 

Yep you're totally right, it was design right this way. It actually not only work back then but also is a quite good trigger, that's why it still there and kicking.

 

Gammacor and Synoid Gammacor, both being unique in terms of design style as wrist mounted firearms. Then we got the Atomos... 

 

Gammacor is a wrist gun only in the grip style, it's actually a continuous beam weapon akin to spectra. I don't know why people compare the Atomos to Gammacor, it only share the grip type and some atributes with it but mechanically it is like the lil sis of Amprex not based on critical and status, it is a arc continuous beam gun that deal a good chunk of heat damage.

 

Yeah, powercreep indeed is an atrocious thing to see crop up in a game. However another double-barreled shotgun isn't somehow guaranteed to be an upgrade to the Tigris. Shoot if they just copied what the Tigris currently is, but swapped the copy's primary trigger to Semi-Auto and gave it an alt-fire which did the double shot, but at increased spread (by a small amount), we'd already have a side-grade. The current Tigris would still destroy the Semi-Auto variant in terms of immediate burst but the Semi-Auto one would be liked by folks who prefer such a trigger mechanism.

 

Another double-barreled gun won't invalidate the Tigris, of that I can effectively promise you. Anything that makes the Tigris useless in its wheelhouse would be laughably overpowered and would get a nerf for sure.

 

That's exaclty why I rather prefer to let Tigris as the only boomstick, it's a unique gun by itself and that's a cool feature.

 

The other boomstick would fall to one of those 4 aspects:

- Being obnouxious op and therefore receiving a nerf to be less than Tigris, wich is considered an end-game gun.

- Being inferior to the Tigris from the beggining, this way we would loss some, if not all, the feel of power that a boomstick have.

- Being mechanically different with its shells, like the laser one I said or some different kind of projectile to differ from Tigris, like the phage for an extreme example (this would lead to some cool weapon designs, but not an actual boomstick).

- Being in the same rank as Tigris, only with it's trigger and model different, and this would be boring as hek (not the actual hek, but as the term for "heck" in warframe). 

 

Take note that I actually can imagine a gun, or even many, that could be a sidegrade to tigris, for example just let it deal less base damage with a bigger pellet count and having a good ratio of critical chance and a damage of 2.5, boom! We have another double-barrel. But even this new gun, as I stated before, would probably had the same trigger and same basic mechanic as tigris. I am really pessimist in this point and developers, even when they are crazy on uniqueness, tends to follow some rules when building new content, there's some "order" in "chaos" and as I watch the issue with a critic eye, the trigger is already a staple rule for this kind of shooting mechanic in Warframe, the only viable option to calm down both sides would be allowing the alt fire to be semi-auto whit Tigris and letting duplex-auto as it its now, then migrating this same combined mode to any possible boomstick or weapons who inherit the dupex-auto (more versatillity to those type of guns). Also I would throw the duplex to all semi-auto aks, using a *desperado setup is a complicatedin Warframe (And I don't count macros of course).

 

Btw, I'm more of an extremist in this, I would love to being able to switch the trigger type of ARs. Being able to change from burst to full auto, or from full-auto to semi-auto would be a cool feature.

 

Of course all this come from a Killing Floor player's point of view, I tend to imagine some of of its rules being used in Warframe, like for example:

Instead of turning every single enemy into a bullet sponge that can shove you with 3 bullets, making each wave more difficult with mechanics and more dangerous enemys, this happens in a extend in Warframe but what is staple is the bullet sponge tendencie and even those strong enemys are bullet sponges, more dangerous ones tbh.

Or not having infinite modes, this only generates difficulty with the tonning of enemy scaling and mandatory gear/mods. This will probably not change at all with the big update of mandatories, but certainly will alleviate on the enemy scaling problem, I hope so.

 

* Desperado setup: A setup where the player uses both RMB and LMB as standard fire keys, this allows player to do as a desperado cowboy emulating the trigger of each gun to the mouse keys.

[Darthmufin]

NO. then i won't be able to use them properly!!! i use the mouse wheel for POWERS.