Why Melee And Its Features Aren't The Perceived Issue, But Heavy Melee Weapons Are.

[StallordD]

Now I'll just go ahead and preface this with what needs to be said. I use heavy melee weapons. A lot. almost exclusively. I love swinging around a giant sword and love going melee only in PvP games so I was drawn right to the Galatine.

 

Imagine my surprise when everyone calls me noob, spammer, and all sorts of other unsavory terms. At first, I thought it was just your average PvP salt that comes with the territory, but after reading thread after thread of complaints about Heavy melee, and melee in general, I realized that the majority of people seemed to hold this opinion. So I recently messed around with all melee had to offer to see if the numerous complaints were as valid as every adamantly claimed they were.

 

The results were thus:

 

Melee in general is not overpowered.

 

Most melee weapons are woefully UNDERpowered.

 

Heavy melee weapons are VERY powerful, and you know what? Overpowered. There I said it. But not to the extent people think they are.

 

So rather than just leaving with this bold, and pretty controversial statement, I'll try and argue my case from a melee only player's perspective, addressing each aspect of melee combat individually.

 

Melee combat and its ease of killing

 

Many players seem to hold the idea that once a melee player has you, you're done for. Even if you see them coming from a mile away, you're dead. Lotus help you if they see you first. There is no escape. The DPS is too high. Your fate is sealed.

 

From a melee player's perspective: I find it more incredible how many players react so poorly to a melee rush-down. Many will attempt to roll, vanilla jump, or even just WALK away, expecting it to be adequate to shake off the assault. So here's a set of insider tips.

 

1. Bullet jump UP. Do it immediately. Do it fast, don't think about it. Martial magnetism wont follow you up, and you'll have a perfect vantage point to get some damage in on the melee player who is likely still in mid-combo.

 

2. If running seems too distasteful for your rough and tumble lifestyle, then take aim. Most weapons are capable of out-damaging a melee player if you can keep calm and aim. In most cases, they will be moving in a predictable fashion and aren't too difficult to outgun. There are major risks involved with this, but it's a good bet to take if you register the player before they close the gap, or if you're in a confined space (where running will be much more difficult).

 

3. If you're the coolest of the cool and hate Martial Magnetism with a passion, you can "lead" them in an extremely predictable fashion by maintaining a steady altitude and take them down with ease.

 

Overall, I think melee's TTK is balanced in most cases. If they get the jump on you and you become disoriented or panic, they'll win most of the time. I like to equate it to the Pyro in TF2. They have a pretty predictable pattern of attack, and have to rely on ambush and surprise to overcome.

 

Players in Warframe are ABSURDLY mobile, and while this applies to melee players as well, ranged players aren't constrained by distance and nearly all maps have plenty of breathing room to take. So in most cases, if you show you aren't fooled or surprised, the melee player is going to back off or die. And if they back off, guess what? You still have a ranged weapon.

 

Potential Fixes: None. With the exception of Heavy Melee (and a couple specific examples), melee players REALLY have to take advantage of your lapse in concentration to take the kill. If you can't address it, it really is your fault.

 

Martial Magnetism

 

The bane of existence. The scourge of the system. The aimbot on a stick. Call it what you will. However, it's not the be-all-end-all tool for every melee player, and has its own set of drawbacks besides blocking that can be exploited if you're smart.

 

As I said earlier, players are ABSURDLY mobile. Martial Magnetism exists as a way for players to keep up pressure on most escape attempts and force players to commit to escape if they want it. This makes it so that players CAN'T just walk to the side and eliminate melee players with ease.

 

Additionally, Martial Magnetism can be just as much of a harmful impact on players using it as it can be a help. It can be used to "lead" players as I said earlier and turn them into trains on a rail ripe for the picking. It can lock players into a combo leading them into a wall if you lure them around corners or around elevation changes, and if followed by a quick double jump back, you can effectively glue them to a spot for an easy kill. If you're feeling particularly mean, lure them to the edge of a death pit, jump off, and then jump back. Bye bye Tempo Royale combo.

 

Potential Fixes: Unfortunately, Martial Magnetism exacerbates an inherent issue with PvP and specifically melee. Lag. It won't ever be COMPLETELY fixed, and it's just a part of the territory.

 

I don't know how it works under the hood, but making it so that it loses lock on vertical and/or doesn't have the hitbox follow players up, it would cause less rage by players who should have escaped.

 

Additionally, I think a good change would be it requiring a hit FIRST to lock on, and not killing poor Johnny Excalibro who just walked around a corner only for the heat seeking melee missile to change lock and whip towards him with the force of a thousand suns, all before the dancing Frost even knew he was there.

 

Channeling

 

A topic that seems to have gathered a lot of momentum here on the PvP feedback forum is the state of channeling and its power. Many players argue that it is too cheap and too easy to use for the benefits it returns, arguing that the damage increase does not adequately reflect the energy cost.

 

From a melee player's perspective: This is hardly the case when looking at nearly EVERY melee weapon (excluding heavy melee which I will talk about later). The damage increase you get from each strike will reduce the overall amount needed to finish someone off by around 1 - 3 swings depending on the weapon type and the stance. Overall, you are taking the gambit that you expending nearly all of your energy will beat out your opponent and leave you alive, albeit with little to no energy left. From a melee player's perspective, this is a valuable tool to utilize against an opponent who is more than capable of handling your assault. You wager all your energy for the upper hand, and risk them running away and leaving you with nothing to gain.

 

Potential Fixes:  Again, not sure how it works under the hood, but make it so that channeling doesn't increase effective melee range. Simple and would probably further help quell the rage of players who seem to be haunted by ghosts.

 

I think a good middle ground would be to make specific attacks cost more than others. For example, that death uppercut in Temp Royale that murders everything within a 200m radius and also each player's dog? Make it cost 3x more energy to channel. I'm not sure if this is how it already functions, but it should if it doesn't

 

Additionally, I have a pretty brash proposition. Make it so to utilize channeling, a player cannot have other weapons equipped. They want the melee power mode? Fine. Commit to it. This would make it so that when the Vectis Chroma decides that Lie in Wait isn't worth it anymore, they can't just whip out their Jat and use their leftover energy to mop up everything on screen.

 

Make Channeling put players on the map. This could make it both a lure for melee players to use, AND a warning for pursuing players. This way, players wont be able to start ramping up their combo while channeling and screech around the corner into another player's skull out of nowhere. At least now players will have SOME advanced warning, though if they utilize it well is another thing.

 

Melee and various frame's powers

 

The infamous Frost combo. The Chroma Vex armor. The unbeatable Iron Skin. With so many skills that directly improve a player's effectiveness with melee, how can in truly be considered fair that melee gets so much extra goodness?

 

From a melee player's perspective:  When choosing your attire before entering the Conclave, a melee player is going to choose based on two factors.

 

Do I have enough durability that melee is even viable?

 

Are there skills in this set that increase my effectiveness with melee or have an alternative solution should melee fail?

 

In most cases, players are gonna choose the tankiest frame they can so that they can actually jump into the fray without dying (ie Frost, Chroma), or they're gonna choose an energy hog with cheap skills that offer high benefits to melee players (Ember, Saryn). There are some frames that are objectively better options for the aspiring melee player, and many that should be viable but just plain aren't.

 

Potential Fixes: I honestly can't think of a good change for this, largely because I don't think it's an issue that needs a change. Of course Frost is a good choice for melee players. He's swole as F, yo. Choosing the right frame for your loadout is fine, and shouldn't be the cause for as much outrage as it is.

 

Not to mention, there are so MANY counters to pure melee players it's hilarious. Chroma, Mag, Saryn, Ember, Trinity, Frost, and Nyx all have powers that utterly SCREW melee players and punish their efforts to maintain proximity. Additionally, may other frames have powers that while not direct counters to melee play style, are extremely effective in most situations against melee players simply by their very nature (Ash bladestorm for example capitalizes on the fact that many melee players will be at consistently low shields and/or health and also in close proximity to other players.)

 

Ground Slams/insta kill quick moves

 

The Melee Players Gambit. The counter counter to the counter. The opening and the closing move. An issue that stems from the overall danger melee players take when engaging, meaning high risk, high reward moves are almost always the way to go.

 

From a melee player's perspective: Guess what. Everyone hates you. And they all have guns. So how are you gonna get close? You have three good options.

 

Slide attack, slow, predictable, but has altitude changes and covers a good amount of distance.

 

Air dash. Does high damage, but has finicky timing and a noticeable recovery time.

 

Ground slam. Near instant descent from blind spots to deal instant kill damage on direct hit, and knock down near misses though has medium recovery time.

 

Obvious choice isn't it? The problem with melee combat is that aside from just bum rushing the enemy or waiting for them to run by, you don't have many safe options to open your attack. Which is fine, you risk death to get the high damage up close. Ground slams are a perfect way to open with relatively low risk and very, VERY high reward. I don't really need to explain why they're so good.

 

Potential Fixes: The way ground slams get abused so much is as a cheap way to get free stagger and follow with a high damage ranged weapon. This is not the way they should be used. So here are my suggestions.

 

Reduce the damage of ground slams to around 70%. Nobody like instant kills, and they make melee v melee fights a battle to who gets blessed by lag first. I still think that a direct hit should deal high damage, but not enough to immediately kill anyone.

 

Make quick melee ground slams do 50% of THAT damage. They'll still hurt, and you'll get your KD, but it's not a free gambit with a free follow up.

 

Make quick melee ground slams have 25% longer recovery. If you're going to switch from your melee back to your gun, it should take longer. Not so long that the grounded player will beat your recovery (else it would be useless) but enough so that you have only a SLIGHT speed advantage to capitalize on. Players shouldn't have enough time to squeeze off most of their clip into a stationary target.

 

Make channeled ground slams cost a significant amount. I'm talking like 30-50 energy. It's gonna be an instant kill if you hit, but it had better god damn cost you. Considering how many player POWERS have this relative cost-kill balance, I think it's an acceptable trade off.

 

And just to mention it, air-dashes are fine. They require a pretty good amount of timing to utilize well, and aren't very reliable. More as a way to surprise ambushing players if you correctly guess their line of approach.

 

Heavy Melee

 

Now we get to the big ticket item. The one leading to so much salt that I think I'm worried continued play in the Conclave will give me congestive heart failure. Maybe up until now, avid anti-melee players have been slightly on board. Maybe even some agree with me on some parts. However, I'm about to lose them all with these next words.

 

Heavy melee are not that overpowered. They are extremely powerful, like I said. But here's the reason everyone uses them. Every other melee weapon is a death sentence. I've found some moderate success with other melee weapons and stances, but in roughly 90% of matchups, a gun and a steady hand will win 100% of the time, every time.

 

The reason Heavy melee are making such huge waves is because many players don't handle them properly. The infamous Galatine Tempo Royale combo, which is my favorite combo of course, has a large amount of weaknesses that so many players fail to capitalize on.

 

The death combo is extremely long and drawn out, and limits the users movement. Distance and focus will beat it every time. Many players seem to think that by jumping into any melee engagement at any time they will be on the same footing as everyone else, when in reality, many stances and weapons have phases where they are significantly deadlier than others. I can't tell you how many times I've bee in a wide open field trying to work through the death combo, and players will PURPOSELY jump into my range only to get punished by the uppercut and instantly die. Players who are smarter just stand at safe distance and take me down in less than half a second with no issue whatsoever. If I start swinging around a corner, the correct choice is NOT to follow me and get punished when my combo completes. It's to flank away from the blind corner and take me out when I ground slam into nothing.

 

I do think heavy melee weapons should be brought down a bit in terms of deadliness, but other melee weapons need to be brought UP. If there are only 4 or 5 weapons that are even remotely usable, of course everyone is going to use them and turn them into a perceived issue.

 

Potential fixes: So what should we do? Aside from the minor nerfs I mentioned earlier, how can heavy melee be brought down to an acceptable level?

 

Would locking stances to pure melee only users be the answer in this situation like I suggested for channeling? Or is that divorcing PvP gameplay too much from standard?

 

I honestly don't know. Ranged weapons can still easily out DPS the heavy melee weapons if they start outputting damage at the same time and the other player has decent accuracy.

 

Heavy melee may utterly decimate one player, but very rarely is it 1v1 in PvP. They'll be sitting ducks for the multiple other players in the lobby if those other players keep their distance. And honestly, with the absurdly fast life cycle in PvP, it often results in a death chain scenario anyways. It just seems so bad because the player at the start of the chain dies literally instantly.

 

Every player moves at light speed in PvP, but ranged players have the option to completely shut down melee players if they want to, though if they can capitalize on this depends on the player.

 

Many players argue that melee weapons take no skill, and PvP should be skill based. And on the whole, I will agree. To say that melee is pure spamming E is disingenuous, as there truly is a good amount of planning and executing involved in these maneuvers that seem extremely simple from the outside.

 

The problem is, that even WITHOUT this planning and ambushing, melee can still be extremely effective by ACTUALLY just spamming E. I have a great deal of trouble with the gunplay in PvP due to my horrible internet and my persistent body tremors (that intensify with excitement) so I resort to something that lacks as much execution, but presents opportunity for more setup (luring people through rigged bodies, wall latch swings, etc.)

 

I'm not privy to how the balance changing goes on the PvP team, but I would be the first to advocate for changes that significantly lower the base level effectiveness of melee, but greatly increase the opportunity for tactical planning. Give ranged players the satisfaction of good execution, but give melee players the satisfaction of good planning. Keep heavy melee as brutally deadly as it currently is, but increase the work it takes to get there. Even if this means systems that don't exist in PvE, it would be for the better.

 

I really do feel offended when I lure a player through an exploding corpse and then air dodge back over them to ground slam them in midair and get called a ground slam spammer, or start my combo well in advance anticipating a pursuing player and get sarcastic praise for my skill in pressing the E button.

 

There is much more room for skill in melee than it seems, but that room is largely unneeded for the average player, often giving it the appearance of mindless spam. And honestly, with such an alluring ease of use, it becomes the better option as opposed to good planning and setups and perpetuates the idea that melee is a blight to the idea of Conclave being a showcase for skill.

Edited September 21, 2015 by StallordD

[Nesit1]

Skipped down just to your opinion, I should agree with that. And talking about magnetism, I was thinking about adding old blocking system and stamina PVP-exclusive. Also parkour unaffected and some numbers adjusted. So even melee players can block down instagib slam, suffering minor hold (like you block ancient's hook).

Personally I like throwing weapons. I didn't try it with magnetism though (got sniper mod as a gift).

EDIT: oh my, it's Lord himself :O

Edited September 21, 2015 by Nesit1

[(PSN)ForcedSin_erity]

So basically suck it up and get gud? If that's the case then I'm 99% with ya. I played enough CC to pretty much Rekt and accept things like instakill slams. Don't get me wrong I still think that they could use the nerf, but if ya love to slam with heavy melees go for it. Just know that as a player you're basically ain't showing me any skills. Not that anyone would care because good integrity ain't a thing when it comes to gaming anymore. Not saying that it doesn't exist just hard to find these days...also...StallorD :O

Edited September 21, 2015 by (PS4)FarCript

[Vyrn]

Good read. Just a heads up, I'm tired and on mobile.

My only real issue with melee is the knockdown/stagger on certain swings or combos and the one shot instakill stuff. When either of those happen due to lag or seemingly buggy mechanics, it is quite frustrating

Nothing is worse than dying without warning because someone hit where you were 2 seconds ago (both ranged and melee). Well, getting knocked down or staggered by melee attacks while in the air (lag or just large hitboxes) is pretty bad too.

That said, I think melee overall is in a pretty good place, but I don't think any fair change would ever bring it up to par with skillful aim and a gun. If a player is caught off guard, ambushed, fought in close quarters, or simply outplayed, though, melee can really shine and beat out most ranged weapons.

Even the weakest of melee weapons can kill in moments, and the mobility potential of melee attacks can make it harder to combat with range if the melee user can get in close (unless the range user has a bow).

Also, I think heavy melee weapons just get the most flak because of their burst potential. One solid hit can kill or cripple most frames, and it isn't usually that hard to land one hit on most players.

That isn't to say some tweaking (both nerfing and buffing) is not needed, as it most certainly is, but the current system isn't horrendously broken. Glaive detonations are bogus, though.

I digress. You've got some good points here. Overall, it's a difficult thing to balance, but it is not that bad right now, all things considered.

[AlphaSierraMike]

Just my own 2 cent on channeling, they should either put a permanent drain on channeling or have channeling costs be on per swing basis, not per hit. 2 per second or 5 per swing.

 

This would discourage people constantly holding channeling or punish melee spammers that has a 10% hit rate. At the very least both would force players to be a bit more conservative with energy, now that the game just flat out hands player energy with the regen. Naturally Martial Magnetism would increase this drain.

 

And hey, if they implement per swing into PvE as well, going melee only would be heaps better when one swing doesn't drain 20 energy because it's infested and mutlhit means hitting like 8 enemies at once.

[Lordricker]

Nothing is worse than dying without warning because someone hit where you were 2 seconds ago (both ranged and melee). Well, getting knocked down or staggered by melee attacks while in the air (lag or just large hitboxes) is pretty bad too.

 

 

If only we could get dedicated servers, but alas it may never happen D:

 

Even the weakest of melee weapons can kill in moments, and the mobility potential of melee attacks can make it harder to combat with range if the melee user can get in close (unless the range user has a bow).

 

As a lover of bows, you better hope i didnt see you comming :P

 

I dont normally read real long posts but this one was good so I finished it. :D

[Nazrethim]

Beautiful reading, and I agree with everything, currently I only hate 4 weapons in PvP: Jat Kittag, Boltor, Braton and Simulor, and only because those indeed require little to no skill to get a kill. I have high respect for Bow (specialy Daikyu) and Vectis users, also for any other melee player that bothers to learn the combo instead of going 100% e-spam.

Return the old Stamina-blocking for PvP only? that will actually make melees less weak against ranged autos who just go all gun-ho on you and beat you even in melee range because they deal more damage with their little needles than you with a huge-as blade or kinetic-amplifing boxing gauntlets or Toxic blade.

[Joblock]

Mkay, having fought your setup firsthand, I can tell you my problem is that games like these where you can customize your loadout in PvP, someone always find the next cheap frowned upon build and it ruins all the fun people were having beforehand. When I see a melee player on Phobos running straight at me, I have 1 second to live, or react. I have tried bullet jumping, but martial magnetism tempo royale combined with poor netcode kills me. I have tried using Counter Melee, but of course you have been in the great sword spam game longer than me so you knew all the counterplays. *slow clap*

Anyways, this system affords melee spammers players too much power for their mobility. Allow me to explain a good example from Team Fortress 2.

When I am playing as the Soldier on Dustbowl, and I see a Pyro running straight at me from 50 feet away, I don't freak out because I have a counter, the shotgun. I blast his face and thats the end of it. However, when a pyro surpises me from behind, I get rekt, which is fine and fun. He earned that kill through proper pyro utility.

When I am a Rhino on Phobos and I see an Ember Galatine, I think, Oh! Double Barrel will fix you! Nope. If I didn't get instakilled with a charged slam, I was killed by WoF. Tell me how fun that sounds. It sounds god awful and you know it. Players should not be able to be that mobile and high damaging, combined with just enough health to keep them from dying. There needs to be a reason to not charge a guy head on with a Galatine. A reason that results in getting punished for cheap plays.

[Nazrethim]

If you seem ANYFRAME with a melee drawn don't wait for him to get in range: Shoot, prepare your melee or run away.

[Nighttide77]

Good read.  I hope DE takes these different items into deep consideration.

[rockscl]

 

Not to mention, there are so MANY counters to pure melee players it's hilarious. Chroma, Mag, Saryn, Ember, Trinity, Frost, and Nyx all have powers that utterly SCREW melee players and punish their efforts to maintain proximity. Additionally, may other frames have powers that while not direct counters to melee play style, are extremely effective in most situations against melee players simply by their very nature (Ash bladestorm for example capitalizes on the fact that many melee players will be at consistently low shields and/or health and also in close proximity to other players.)

 

you missed obbie`s lava floor there

Edited September 21, 2015 by rockscl

[-InV-igo95862]

My only issue with melee is lag and one shot ground slam on weapons with large hit box like Jat Kittag.

 

It is hard to land on top of enemy with dagger or a sword but with Jat Kittag it is extremely easy.

[Alethkar]

I would like to throw this out there:

It takes a measure of "skill" to swing melee successfully.

It takes a measure of "skill" to snipe.

It takes a measure of "skill" to press #4.

It takes a measure of "skill" to use parkour 2.0 to evade all of the above.

I feel that a lot of the players crying out for nerfs are forgetting they have the direct advantage of mobility and distance to secure a kill. If you are going to be using ranged weapons, then you shouldn't allow your target to enter CQC with you.

Against a properly prepared player, the slower & heavier melee weapons are not always a boon.

On the topic of channeling:

I do not think channeling should be removed or nerfed unless Melee players can shift+roll out of combos. I can't tell you how many times against a good player I misread a situation and started a combo only to be swinging my giant sword at nothing but air...

On the topic of ground slam nerf:

I'm all about nerfing ground slam when not rocking sword alone. However, if you are only using melee and channeling at the same time, landing directly on top of your enemy; you deserve that kill and they deserve to die.

A note on Martial Mag:

It has a 2m range. Fails when there are multiple opponents in range. I feel that this is a great mod, especially for beginner's but definitely falls off against higher skilled opponents compared to Relentless Assault. Lastly, it can be avoided (as stated previously) by bullet jumping straight up.

PS- I hate melee'ing against Frost, lol

Edited September 21, 2015 by Alethkar

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

I personally dont like melee users. But i have to agree with you, heavy melee is NOT overpowered. Hell its far from it I have had more trouble with nikondis and fangs.

But there are some things i dont agree with you on, for example the "jump up to avoid". As someone who religiously uses bullet jump this does not work. You cannot imagine ho many times i have been killed because a up wards swing of a galatine hit me. The hitboxes are wonky.

[Murph_HKM]

Great post.

[Alethkar]

I personally dont like melee users. But i have to agree with you, heavy melee is NOT overpowered. Hell its far from it I have had more trouble with nikondis and fangs.

But there are some things i dont agree with you on, for example the "jump up to avoid". As someone who religiously uses bullet jump this does not work. You cannot imagine ho many times i have been killed because a up wards swing of a galatine hit me. The hitboxes are wonky.

 

I think you and I have done battle before!

 

We should try to test this out sometime and see if it's a P2P issue etc. I'm in no way trying to say you can't bullet jump, but I have mostly had a different experience including with Nyx absorb. Perhaps it is a lingering effect of Martial Mag.

 

Lastly, I'm a melee user and I know you like me, im so likeable!

[Lord_Noctus]

melee is fine right now some weapons maybe a bit to overkill when channeled but i think aslong as primarys dont get another nerf we should be fine kind of. my usual experience is that anybody who use melee only will not land on the lower half of the scoreboard. i didnt try it lately but i allways saw martial magnetism as the problem that takes the skill away from using melee weapons.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Lord_Noctus

[StallordD]

Mkay, having fought your setup firsthand, I can tell you my problem is that games like these where you can customize your loadout in PvP, someone always find the next cheap frowned upon build and it ruins all the fun people were having beforehand. When I see a melee player on Phobos running straight at me, I have 1 second to live, or react. I have tried bullet jumping, but martial magnetism tempo royale combined with poor netcode kills me. I have tried using Counter Melee, but of course you have been in the great sword spam game longer than me so you knew all the counterplays. *slow clap*

Anyways, this system affords melee spammers players too much power for their mobility. Allow me to explain a good example from Team Fortress 2.

When I am playing as the Soldier on Dustbowl, and I see a Pyro running straight at me from 50 feet away, I don't freak out because I have a counter, the shotgun. I blast his face and thats the end of it. However, when a pyro surpises me from behind, I get rekt, which is fine and fun. He earned that kill through proper pyro utility.

When I am a Rhino on Phobos and I see an Ember Galatine, I think, Oh! Double Barrel will fix you! Nope. If I didn't get instakilled with a charged slam, I was killed by WoF. Tell me how fun that sounds. It sounds god awful and you know it. Players should not be able to be that mobile and high damaging, combined with just enough health to keep them from dying. There needs to be a reason to not charge a guy head on with a Galatine. A reason that results in getting punished for cheap plays.

The issue you're describing stems from issues of lag and horrible matchmaking. Trust me, I'm assuming you're talking about Tigris, and if so, it can DEFINITELY one shot a melee rush down if used at the right time. The problem is that what you see on your screen and what the game sees aren't always in sync.

 

It's why so many people feel cheated by melee. Not because it's somehow leagues above other playstyles, but because it has a VERY distinct visual presence that everyone rightly expects should reflect its functional presence. With guns, I can guarantee you that you've been hit by bad lag. Around a corner, from a player who has no LoS on you, etc. But with guns it's easy to assume they hit you and you just didn't see the tracer. With melee, it becomes so much more apparent because the player is a huge visual object that doesn't match up with what you see.

 

It goes the same way for melee players as well. Often I'll be whaling on a guy getting no hits, and then 3 seconds later die from the entire clip of bullets he apparently emptied into me while I was stuck in the frozen time. Often I'll melee a player to death, and start to make my escape, only to die to his phantom presence before I even get off the ground.

 

The issues many players have with melee are directly caused by terrible, terrible connectivity issues that in all honesty will probably never be completely solved. Martial magnetism and the like are a double edged sword (heh). On one hand, ranged players get airshot by wild hitboxes, but on the other, melee players will be screwed by swinging into a player that the game decides isn't in range and get picked off for an easy kill, or worse, go to swing at a player only for them to instant transmission into the sky with a perfect bead on the melee user's head.

 

Lastly, to say that players shouldn't have that much damage + mobility is a fair opinion. But by saying that you have to realize that many ranged weapons have similar DPS, almost no impairment to mobility at any time during their offensive, and get the benefit of extended area that they are effective in. I hate to say it, but many players just straight up aren't effective enough to max this damage AND/OR their mobility and instead blame melee because it is far easier to execute on.

 

I guess going back to TF2 comparisons, melee is like the Heavy. Low skill ceiling, low learning curve, but deals utter destruction against players of similar skill level and lower. Ranged on the other hand is like Spy. High skill ceiling, but steep learning curve that rewards the climb to the top with near unparalleled competitiveness.

[stoybot]

Melee - and heavy melee in particular - is quite powerful against inexperienced players and not particularly threatening against experienced players. Mind you, a newbie swinging a Galatine is far more dangerous than a newbie with a Braton Prime. Considering the fact that there aren't many experienced players around, it's no surprise that melee is getting a lot of flak. A Frost Prime with a Galatine is charging my Vectis Mag? Press 2 and shoot him in the body - dead. Managed to sneak up on you? Bullet jump away, press 2, aim glide, shoot him in the body - dead. The Galatine Frost might still one-hit me while I'm distracted fighting someone else though... If you stay mobile, that's generally not an issue, but sneaky melee players will still get you from time to time.

[Nazrethim]

Lets not forget that many players don't exactly know how melee works, last night I had a match against another nikana blindjustice and he asked me how did I manage to one shot him. Since we were only two dudes in the match waiting for anyone else to join I took the time to teach him. I told him to hitme with the E spam combo (I'm an Ash prime) channeling, he took my shields and about 20 hp with the full combo. Then I replenished my health in the map and told him to execute Guiding Light at about 10m, he instagibed me with that, then again at point blank range, he passed trough me at high speed dealing like 50p of damage to my shields. Then he realised that melee is more than just E spam. Obviously, he didn't have MM.

[StallordD]

Melee - and heavy melee in particular - is quite powerful against inexperienced players and not particularly threatening against experienced players. Mind you, a newbie swinging a Galatine is far more dangerous than a newbie with a Braton Prime. Considering the fact that there aren't many experienced players around, it's no surprise that melee is getting a lot of flak. A Frost Prime with a Galatine is charging my Vectis Mag? Press 2 and shoot him in the body - dead. Managed to sneak up on you? Bullet jump away, press 2, aim glide, shoot him in the body - dead. The Galatine Frost might still one-hit me while I'm distracted fighting someone else though... If you stay mobile, that's generally not an issue, but sneaky melee players will still get you from time to time.

Yes! That's the whole thing I was trying to get across, but you summed it up much more elegantly. PvP ranged has much more potential than melee, but it requires skill to match. Skill that many players who are getting into PvP haven't gotten yet, and instead blame melee for being too OP.