Nothing Says "toxicity" Quite Like Archwing Events/content

[Kalenath]

Ah yes, pasting in famous quotes during Internet arguments in a way that implies someone who disagrees with you is wrong—the pinnacle of sophistication.

 

Well, he won't listen to me. Maybe he would listen to Winston.

 

Probably not.

 

Taking words out of context is an age old human practice to show things that the speaker/writer did not actually mean.

 

Frankly? I don't care about his opinion. HE -and SO many others- cares that I do not agree COMPLETELY AND IRREFUTABLY with HIS.

 

I'm not going to read the entire series of arguments that has occurred since I last checked this thread, but DE does lock entirely non-Archwing content behind Archwing missions. Quite a sizable segment of the player base dislikes this practice, and says so.

 

So, that group MUST rule. Everyone else MUST bow down and accept that rule?

 

I know you didn't say that, but that is SURE what a BUNCH of people are IMPLYING. That I am clueless, stupid or a white knight because I enjoy something they don't.

 

I don't like skiing, so I should force EVERYONE not to ski? Demand that every ski resort be demolished because I don't like it? (Not QUITE the same thing, but close to some arguments I have seen.)

 

I DETEST PvP. Can I demand THAT be taken out now? Because I have seen A LOT of other people saying the same thing.

 

'quite a sizable segment' actually.

 

I won't. I don't enjoy it but I know players who DO. And you better BELIEVE that when DE adds items behind a PvP wall (which they will since players demand it so often,) I WILL be up in arms.

 

I can get that for many people Archwing isn't fun. They want it another way, or they want it simpler, or they want it something different even if they cannot always define that difference. So they will complain, and sometimes said complaints will be irrational. ('Sour Grapes' IS one of Aesop's fables for a reason.)

 

I do enjoy it. I am truly sorry that many people do not. Honest truth there.

 

But all this 'I HATE IT' or 'I LOVE IT' with NOTHING in between is not helping. I AM in between. I enjoy it, but I find some of it infuriating.

 

So... Am I a white knight?

Edited October 16, 2015 by Kalenath

[Bhargo]

So someone is standing over you with a gun MAKING you play Archwing. Wow... if so, you have bigger problems than bugs in a video game.

 

I get that some people do not find it fun. I can accept that. What I have difficulty accepting is everyone who DEMANDS that I hate something that I enjoy. It doesn't have to be PERFECT for me to enjoy it. I know I am in a minority there but it doesn't matter to me.

When alerts with good rewards are AW. When missions like Jordas end in AW. When we have to slow down and normal mission and deal with the even worse sharkwing. DE does everything they can to get us into AW. Don't try to dismiss the prevalence of it by using some hyperbole bs about being forced or not.

 

I'm not demanding you hate it. I'm asking DE to stop trying to push a broken game mode on us and instead put more work into fixing it before trying to make it a piece of everyday play. However that will never happen when any complaints against it are met with nothing but a wall of fallacy and dismissal.

 

 

 

'You can lead a fool to knowledge, but you cannot make him think' - Winston Churchill

 

You can twist my words however you wish. That won't make YOUR opinion any more valid to ME.

 

You disagree with me, therefor you are a fool. This is exactly what I am talking about. Anyone who thinks other than you, anyone who finds fault in AW, you immediately write off as foolish and wrong. No improvement can be made when you refuse to acknowledge any fault in the design.

 

I DETEST PvP. Can I demand THAT be taken out now? Because I have seen A LOT of other people saying the same thing.

The difference is DE isn't making PVP alerts and gating planets with masses of PVP missions. Edited October 16, 2015 by Bhargo

[Vulture051]

I want it kersploded for money. You'll have to be MR8+ to buy stuff off Baros. Less supply and more customers for reselling.

[Bhargo]

But I am a rare 'thinking' example of the human race. Pity those of us who try to think are going extinct.

My god I can practically hear your fedora over the text.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Bhargo

[TheBrsrkr]

My god I can practically hear your fedora of the text.

This is neither constructive nor feedback.

[Kalenath]

When alerts with good rewards are AW. When missions like Jordas end in AW. When we have to slow down and normal mission and deal with the even worse sharkwing. DE does everything they can to get us into AW. Don't try to dismiss the prevalence of it by using some hyperbole bs about being forced or not.

 

I'm not demanding you hate it. I'm asking DE to stop trying to push a broken game mode on us and instead put more work into fixing it before trying to make it a piece of everyday play. However that will never happen when any complaints against it are met with nothing but a wall of fallacy and dismissal.

 

Point taken. YOU are not demanding I hate.

 

Others...?

 

I don't see the mode as broken as much as 'work in progress'. They ARE improving things, if not as quickly as some of us hope. (myself included)

 

You disagree with me, therefor you are a fool. This is exactly what I am talking about. Anyone who thinks other than you, anyone who finds fault in AW, you immediately write off as foolish and wrong. No improvement can be made when you refuse to acknowledge any fault in the design.

 

That is not actually what Winston was saying. I don't blame you for thinking that. I did the same.

 

But like my English teacher told me, I had to 'think' about it more.

 

We don't know if that quote is actually from Winston Churchill or not. It is attributed to him and it sounds like him. It is FAR deeper than most people might realize.

 

 

(edit) It can be taken as an insult, [and honestly, I meant it that way.] but it is mainly a warning. A warning about human nature. If ANYONE understood human nature, it was Winston Churchill. It is based off the ancient saying 'You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink'. Same idea. You cannot change other people's minds but that won't stop MANY from trying, using fair means or foul.

 

When I talk about 'thinking' when dealing with other human beings, I cannot just 'think' about MY side of things. If I do, then I am fool.

 

I try not to be a fool. But I too am human.

 

Edited October 16, 2015 by Kalenath

[OldGodKing]

These people just can't cope with change. Any slight alteration to their pre-existing formula and the pitch forks come out.

Their barks are worse than their bite. The loudest ones are always the one who don't make an effort to adapt.

Edited October 16, 2015 by AxialBlue

[Kalenath]

 

The difference is DE isn't making PVP alerts and gating planets with masses of PVP missions.

 

 

Yet.

[Bhargo]

 

That is not actually what Winston was saying. I don't blame you for thinking that. I did the same.

I wasn't talking about the quote, I was talking about your usage of it. You dismiss someone with a different viewpoint as foolish because they have a different viewpoint. Obviously because you are just so intelligent and if they were as smart they would agree with you, right?

 

Also, the condescending attitude really isn't doing you any favors.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Bhargo

[DelialFallen]

Although I loved some space shooters (ZoE 2nd Runner being one of my favorite games of all time), I steer clear of Archwing as much as I can.  I find it to very much clash with the so-called co-op mode of the game so to create a complete disconnect on my part. I also profoundly dislike how it's mixed in regular gameplay (like Sharkwing and Jordas quest) or alerts (I've jumped on quite a few missions seeing the reward only to abort as soon as I saw it was Archwing) that to have events centered around the game mode makes want to gag.  In short, I want little to nothing to do with it.

 

That said, I am not against people who genuinely enjoy that game mode or against DE's continued support and development of it.  I just really, really, really (Really) wish they didn't try so hard to get people who are annoyed by the whole thing on board.

 

Personally, I think the anti-Archwing crowd are just trying to get DE's attention about their feelings on the matter in some vain hope all things Archwing be kept out of other content.  I don't condone their doing so, and I don't think it can amount to anything constructive, but I can relate to the frustration especially considering how the conclusion of this event (a repeat of last Holiday Season's Eyes of Blight) may well see more relays being destroyed/removed.

 

Given, too, how the whole thing felt so very scripted last time, there might be some curiosity as to whether or not action and inaction have any real impact on the end result.

[Kalenath]

I wasn't talking about the quote, I was talking about your usage of it. You dismiss someone with a different viewpoint as foolish because they have a different viewpoint. Obviously because you are just so intelligent and if they were as smart they would agree with you, right?

 

Also, the condescending attitude really isn't doing you any favors.

 

It wasn't intended as condescending to YOU and if it came across that way, I apologize. Dealing with assorted idiots online tends to warp one whether said person wants it to happen or not.

 

I never said -and WINSTON never said- that everyone HAS to agree with me/him. That WOULD be foolish. But simply disregarding an alternate opinion just because you can is just as foolish. Stating opinions as facts is also foolish.

 

Unfortunately, it is also very human. I am just as guilty of that as anyone else at times.

 

If you look through my posts, you will note that 'I' never say that anyone HAS to agree with me. I try very hard not to imply it but I cannot control other people's thoughts on what I write. I state it is MY opinion and deride it when OTHERS demand that I adhere to THEIR opinions, no matter how false or silly. If the argument is clear and not simply a vitriol dripping excuse to show off an e-peen and pad post count, I will consider it.

 

I may not AGREE, but I DO consider other arguments.

 

None of what I wrote was intended as a personal attack. Please do not take it that way. I was trying to clarify. if you do not wish clarification, and simply wish to assume that I hate you and will never accept any of your arguments at all, feel free to feel that way. I cannot help that.

 

But twisting my written words into something other than I wrote to further hate tends to annoy me. And no, it wasn't you doing that.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Kalenath

[Second_Measure]

Ok... you do know there's a difference between wishing something exploded in a game is totally different than in real life, right?

 

I do not see much of a difference - The internet is a cesspool of loose-mouthed individuals and trolls, in a time where swatting people who stream and posting death treats on twitter have (sadly) become the average news of the day.

 

If you do not like rap music, you don't listen to it. Simple. End of discussion.

Same goes with Archwing. Don't like it, don't do the alert.

 

Making a needless fuss about the Alert itself on the boards is just baiting the people to get a response out of them. And while I can acknowledge that some people do not like to see reused Archwing content, they don't need to add fuel to the fire by openly wishing that the Relays go up in smoke. 

 

E: I do admit, however, that the current mission reward (5x R5 Cores) kind of give it a teeth grinding incentive for the dislikers, forcing them to participate for the sake of fusion mods. That could have been done better from DE's side.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Second_Measure

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I'm sitting in Region chat, as Guides of the Lotus are wont to do, and it's just filled to the brim with people who want nothing more than to see another relay be destroyed. Not even for a remotely good reason, mind you, like, "will they actually destroy a relay this time?"

 

Instead, players are wanting the failure for any number of reasons, ranging from "Archwing sucks", to "newbs don't deserve a relay". This game mode (and by extension, anything related to it) seems to bring out the absolute worst in people, and I just have to ask... why? Does Archwing seriously make people this irritable any time it's brought up in any capacity?

Archwing isn't fun. It doesn't draw on any of the work you have already put into grinding/farming because it has it's own sets of gear and mods so even put in thousands of hours are right back to zero.  The new player experience in Warframe is terrible; it's an even worse feeling for vets that know what it is like when you actually have decent gear. On top of that, it takes way too long to grind levels in Archwing content.

 

And to make matters worse, DE keeps trying to force AW down people's throats whether they like it or not.

 

 

So, that group MUST rule. Everyone else MUST bow down and accept that rule?

Yes.  Only AW content should be locked behind AW missions and vice-versa.

Edited October 16, 2015 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[Vykorias]

Some people like watching the world burn.....

[wtrmlnjuc]

Yep, this is why I'm very glad my little ghost clan is back up and running. Don't have to deal with region.

[Kalenath]

Yes.  Only AW content should be locked behind AW missions and vice-versa.

 

Nope. Shouldn't have to play the game to play the game.

 

Take that however you want it.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Kalenath

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Nope. Shouldn't have to play the game to play the game.

 

(And yes, THAT WAS condescending and intended as such.)

Well, at least you admitting that makes it easier to report you.

[Kalenath]

Well, at least you admitting that makes it easier to report you.

 

Feel free. But you ARE proving the OP's point quite nicely.

 

Your opinion on Archwing has been noted. Not all share it and that apparently bothers you.

 

I have no control over that. All I can control is myself.

 

If you do not want to play Archwing, there ARE alternatives already in game. The market for one. Plat isn't THAT hard to come by.This last Formorian alert wasn't required in any way, shape or form, but lots of people have to jump on the hate bandwagon.

 

And some people say humans aren't herd animals. *heh*

Edited October 16, 2015 by Kalenath

[TheFatDrake]

My issues with archwing, in this context, are as follows:

 

-I do not find the game-mode fun; I have loved space sim games before, but Archwing just is simply un-fun to play. The enemies are so small to target, hard to see, hard to track, it's just quite simply not making use of the 360-Degrees of Freedom that is necessitated in its environment, etc. I have a lot of issues with it, but that's besides the purpose of this post.

 

-The Fomorian Attack mission type for Archwing I would describe as anti-fun to play. I don't get much of anything out of Archwing, but I loathe the Fomorian Attacks.

 

-By opting out of playing this mode, because I find it not fun and I find it incomplete, I risk losing the relay. Though, I personally do not use the relays for much of anything, it's the fact that DE is saying "You must play this game mode, or you lose a relay,". There are enough people that will pretty much handle this, that if I don't join it's no big deal, but it's the threat of taking away content because I don't want to use other content, other content that is tacked on mind you, that makes me aggravated.

 

-Archwing is often shoehorned into other things (ie, Warframe Quests, Uranus), and it's not really being attached the game. Using it as a gate to content is not what 'connecting it to the game' means. Right now, it's being used as a threat that if I don't play Archwing, I could lose the relay.

 

-DE outright mocked players who find Archwing lacking; I think that's grounds enough for being angry about it.

 

Archwing is incomplete, and while I don't like it right now, I don't just want it removed, but I do want it improved. But improving it does not mean shoehorning it into places where it doesn't belong, and it is definitely not a complete enough game-mode to be used to threaten our content with. In fact, threatening to take content at all away in a game like Warframe is misplaced.

 

1. I have very little issue hitting things with my guns in AW, if i cant hit them, then i move in closer because my grattler has a short ish range.

 

2. You don't get much out of the regular game of warframe either and there are a lot of encounters I loathe in ground combat (Lech Krill).

 

3. What "Content" are they taking away? im sure if the relays were all destroyed then they would implement something else so that we could have Baro Kiteer and the syndicates. There is nothing really plot related that the relays hold.

 

4. Oh no! Something people want! Archwing Content! With actual rewards that matter so i feel like i've actually done something amazing aside from destroy a giant infested ship! :D

 

5. When did they do that and are you sure they weren't being sarcastic?

 

Serious question: How do you think they could effectively integrate archwing into this game? from what i see, no matter how they do it, someone is going to be pissy.

 

I would like to see some sabotage missions where we have to jump out of a window after blowing up a power core and escape the explosion. kinda like the Fomorian event going on right now. or a deception mission where we have to sneak into a ship via archwing and then get to the objective.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Feel free. But you ARE proving the OP's point quite nicely.

 

Your opinion on Archwing has been noted. Not all share it and that apparently bothers you.

 

I have no control over that. All I can control is myself.

 

If you do not want to play Archwing, there ARE alternatives already in game. The market for one. Plat isn't THAT hard to come by.This last Formorian alert wasn't required in any way, shape or form, but lots of people have to jump on the hate bandwagon.

 

And some people say humans aren't herd animals. *heh*

I am not saying AW should not get new content; I am saying that new AW content should be AW based, such as new AWs or new AW weapons and mods rather than non-AW content. If you actually like AW, and are not just trying to troll me, then you should be happy about getting new AW content in AW missions.

[--GOOLOO_GOOLOO_GOOLOO--]

Well, at least you admitting that makes it easier to report you.

 

You do know that telling someone or even implying to someone that they're going to be reported is a bigger offense?

 

It's harassment.

You disagree with me, therefor you are a fool. This is exactly what I am talking about. Anyone who thinks other than you, anyone who finds fault in AW, you immediately write off as foolish and wrong. No improvement can be made when you refuse to acknowledge any fault in the design.

 

 

 

 

In all honesty and fairness... he did mention that he does acknowledge faults in the design.

Edited October 16, 2015 by --GOOLOO_GOOLOO_GOOLOO--

[Tricky5hift]

Nothing says "toxicity" quite like threads about Archwing events/content amirite guys?

[Kalenath]

You do know that telling someone or even implying to someone that they're going to be reported is a bigger offense?

 

It's harassment.

In all honesty and fairness... he did mention that he does acknowledge faults in the design.

 

Truth doesn't matter when compared to lies.

 

Facts don't matter when compared to opinions.

 

Moderation is for fools. Thinking likewise. HATE is the only way to go.

 

But not for me.

 

Thank you for the kind words, but it won't help against the torrent of negative Nancies who came out of the woodwork for this.

 

I know what I know. I agree that Archwing needs improvement. I look forward to additional content for it becoming available, probably faster than Warframe's regular content.

 

I also know that standing up to shortsighted bullies is always worthwhile, even online where there is no way to deal with them as they truly deserve.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Kalenath

[Charoy]

I also know that standing up to shortsighted bullies is always worthwhile, even online where there is no way to deal with them as they truly deserve.

Pfffffahahahahahaha, I can't even describe how ridiculously funny this sounded for me xDDD

 

Remind me to send you a new fedora for Xmas, you deserve it m'dude ;)

[BluelitHalo]

My problems with Archwing:

* Lack of content/variety. Imagine if Warframe only had 3 frames and 14 weapons to use. That's what Archwing feels like right now; there's a severe lack of choice in loadouts. I personally don't mind playing the same loadout until the end of time as long as it's fun (Elytron, Grattler, and Knux made me have fun in Archwing again), but seeing my teammates use the same Odonatas and Elytrons in thr background can get pretty stale. Of course, fixing this problem implies that they may need to sacrifice additional content for ground-fighting, and I'll gladly accept that when it comes.

* Lack of modes. Interception is boring, and Defense isn't really my cup of tea. I wish they would add some form of Survival or Excavation to Archwing, just so I can havd the choice to play a more frantic, fast-paced mode. We need more choices in general.

* The skill barrier, which isn't neccesarily good for an MMO if you have it within a fundamental part of the game. You have others complaining about how difficult it is to shoot tiny targets without some sort of lock-on system. I personally like that Archwing tests my aiming a bit more than in the base game, but this can especially be a hindrance for console players and players who aren't seasoned at shooters. DE needs to throw us a bone and give us some form of soft-locking.