Guardsman Synthesis Entry Findings

[SilentMobius]

Alarez said "hold her down", so Bilsa definitely seems to have been a chick.

Yeah it edited that in after I re-read it more carefully. Man I so rarely see/hear "chick" anymore, I guess we really do move in radically different circles.

[Morec0]

Yeah it edited that in after I re-read it more carefully. Man I so rarely see/hear "chick" anymore, I guess we really do move in radically different circles.

 

It honestly took me a second read to confirm it for sure myself - of course, I'd already listed Bilsa as female because of the way the name sounds, so it didn't really post a problem for me.

[UrielColtan]

Then I'd expect some reference to that. Regardless of their shape or form the infestation is "noisy" from a story perspective. If they had been deployed I'd expect some mention somewhere, especially those who are directly talking about the War. The absence of any mention at all in very conspicuous IMHO. Hence I'd say the default assumption should be that the infestation in any form was not deployed against the Sentients.

 

I'm happy to accept they were, when we see some mention of it. before that I think the assumption that they were is a mistake.

 

I agree on the principle though the most we know is that Lephantis was a weapon on an Orokin vessel created for use in the Old War, which would imply that they used infested against the Sentients. Some old Lotus quotes also seem to support the notion and outright state that infested were used against the Sentients, in reference to the old J3 Golem boss.

Edited October 29, 2015 by UrielColtan

[Cleesus]

Again, we have no indication that "the infestation" was ever deployed agains the Sentients, all we know is that a single entity "Lephantis" was supposedly created to fight in the Old War. We have no indication that it was ever deployed, no indication that it was one of many or that it's current nature is similar to the way it was created.

 

For all we know Lephantis is a failed Warframe design. Or the Infestation was an old problem that the Orokin kept at bay and Lephantis was just one (failed) attempt to tame it. We have zero data and a conspicuous absence of anything mentioning anything infested in the information we do have about the Old War (Mirage Questline, Mag Prime Codex)

 

Personally I think that Lephantis is just one of the experiments that the Orokin were doing, and the Tenno/Warframes came to fruition first. I think if anything "infested" had been deployed in the Old War it would be #1 with a bullet on the list of data that would readily show up in any mention of the Old War given how "obvious" that sort of bio-weapon would be.

 

I mean that soldier in the Mag Prime Codex talking about how scary the Tenno were. All of that discussion and not one mention of "Super-cancer body horror troops" that were deployed before? Seems more like they simply weren't there.

 

So I think it's important to remember that "The Orokin deployed infested against the Sentients" is a assumption, not a fact.

Yes most of the stuff we are discussing are assumptions. We have no indication that they didnt deploy it for the reasons i said either. I cant wait for more info tho

[Volinus7]

I think Bilsa is still alive.

Orokin are master of gene manipulation, constantly lengthen telomere to become ageless is a piece of cake for them.

[SilentMobius]

It honestly took me a second read to confirm it for sure myself - of course, I'd already listed Bilsa as female because of the way the name sounds, so it didn't really post a problem for me.

 

My gut response was a weasely bloke, but I was keeping it fluid in my head until I hit a pronoun, but I glazed over the "her" in "hold her down".

 

It's so nice for have some more "ranks" to the Orokin, at least I can put aside the idea that there were only a tiny amount of actual "Orokin" and we even have a mechanism form  an Orokin to disavow their state or at least feel that they should... Inf fact would could now form a reasonable hypothesis on what "Orokin" means: Those "born" close to their conception of genetic perfection.

 

I wonder if our assumptions of birth-engineering for the Orokin are accurate. I wonder if there really is a "birth" rather than a "creation" it's just that they are "Gattica-like" selected and incubated from the best possible combinations of available genetic material. combinations from a whole "Corpus" of sources.

[OniDax]

Yes, Bilsa was showing loneliness and "otherness" from the other Grineer. I don't think it would have been written that way for someone with such an intimate tie to another like herself (Actually I didn't seen anything in that piece that suggested that Bilsa was female, is that just an assumption? *EDIT* Ah yes "Hold her down" I see)

 

So no, definitely not a "queen" IMHO.

 

I definitely think that Alarez is actually Orokin or an Orokin-vassal pigybacking on stolen high-rank Orokin DNA, I don't think the author would have added so many emotional queues to the interaction if he were intended to be a Sentient.

 

Alarez says "Hold her down."

 

I really want to see some Orokin ingame. Not corrupted, but actual Orokin. What they wore, how they sound, and even what their guards looked like. Oh, and what if the Dax was Corrupted?

Edited October 29, 2015 by AntoineFlemming

[Morec0]

I think Bilsa is still alive.

Orokin are master of gene manipulation, constantly lengthen telomere to become ageless is a piece of cake for them.

 

It IS possible. Teshin's alive, Stalker's alive, the Queens are alive... I think she probably passed away some time ago, though, it doesn't really seem likely to me that she's survived all this time, not for really any hard-fact reasons but it just seems... unlikely. Teshin and whatnot seem to be the exception, rather than the rule.

 

As has been said before, though, I'm certain her genes live on through pretty much all female Grineer (save the Queens themselves).

 

My gut response was a weasely bloke, but I was keeping it fluid in my head until I hit a pronoun, but I glazed over the "her" in "hold her down".

 

It's so nice for have some more "ranks" to the Orokin, at least I can put aside the idea that there were only a tiny amount of actual "Orokin" and we even have a mechanism form  an Orokin to disavow their state or at least feel that they should... Inf fact would could now form a reasonable hypothesis on what "Orokin" means: Those "born" close to their conception of genetic perfection.

 

I wonder if our assumptions of birth-engineering for the Orokin are accurate. I wonder if there really is a "birth" rather than a "creation" it's just that they are "Gattica-like" selected and incubated from the best possible combinations of available genetic material. combinations from a whole "Corpus" of sources.

 

Aye, it's all fascinating. Personally, though, I'd like a little more depth on all of them, go into detail of what being a Lorist or Engino did and what that meant for their role in society. What was a Dax, especially, and what roles did they play? Who were some of them? Did they all die out?

[UrielColtan]

Anti moa synth seems to support lab births as opposed to actual births, kind of in line with Man of Steel's Krypton.

Though possibly not complete engineering if Kuria is anything to judge from, it seems that the queens came out the way they were accidentally, but I guess mistakes could be made.

Edited October 29, 2015 by UrielColtan

[SilentMobius]

I agree on the principle though the most we know is that Lephantis was a weapon on an Orokin vessel created for use in the Old War, which would imply that they used infested against the Sentients. Some old Lotus quotes also seem to support the notion and outright state that infested were used against the Sentients, in reference to the old J3 Golem boss.

 

Lephantis was the early attempt at recreation of the J3, I'm of the opinion that Lephantis lines are a clarification of historical J3 lines. I think the only thing implied by the creation of Lephantis is related to the creation of Lephantis, not the infestation in general nor deployment.

 

It's possible (but IMHO, shouldn't be the default assumption) the only "infested" deployed against the sentients is the material in our Warframes (assuming I am correct that the Warframes are at least partially made from technocyte material or by-products) 

 

I'm still deadly curious whether the material used for the Sentient "drones" in the "Tomb of the Sentients" trailer is intended to resemble the Warframe material deliberately from a lore perspective. Certainly the exotic shader on the Oculyst deviates from this a lot

Edited October 29, 2015 by SilentMobius

[Morec0]

Anti moa synth seems to support lab births as opposed to actual births, kind of in line with Man of Steel's Krypton.

Though possibly not complete engineering if Kuria ia anything to judge from, it seems that the queens came out the way they were accidentally, but I guess mistakes could be made.

 

Aye, and this Synthesis would support that mistakes did INDEED happen with the talk of Veytok having a mutation that made him what he is...

 

It's funny, all this talk of a mutation having been the start of the Grineer Rebellion and its Empire, and we have the same thing being repeated with Steel Meridian... Kinda makes you worry about what SM might become in the future...

[SilentMobius]

Anti moa synth seems to support lab births as opposed to actual births, kind of in line with Man of Steel's Krypton.

Though possibly not complete engineering if Kuria is anything to judge from, it seems that the queens came out the way they were accidentally, but I guess mistakes could be made.

 

Yeah my gut says lab-birth but not "designed" simply "selected"

[UrielColtan]

Lephantis was the early attempt at recreation of the J3, I'm of the opinion that Lephantis lines are a clarification of historical J3 lines. I think the only thing implied by the creation of Lephantis is related to the creation of Lephantis, not the infestation in general nor deployment.

 

It's possible (but IMHO, shouldn't be the default assumption) the only "infested" deployed against the sentients is the material in our Warframes (assuming I am correct that the Warframes are at least partially made from technocyte material or by-products) 

 

I'm still deadly curious whether the material used for the Sentient "drones" in the "Tomb of the Sentients" trailer is intended to resemble the Warframe material deliberately from a lore perspective. Certainly the exotic shader on the Oculyst deviates from this a lot

 

Whether you want to assume they created infested in full(As would be suggested given the nanotechnolgy, its not a naturally occurring thing), its pretty implied that they used infested as a weapon in the Old War. and this is bluntly stated in the old J3 Golem asssination,

 

 

So the general idea that DE has in mind is that Orokin used infested against the Sentients, one way or another. In either case, the proposition is not based on mere assumption.

Edited October 29, 2015 by UrielColtan

[OniDax]

Yes, the Orokin used, or tried to use, the Infested against the Sentients. But their stated problem was that they could not control the infested. Chances are, the infestation hurt the Orokin as well as the Sentients.

[UrielColtan]

Also forgot, Lora are distinguished from Orokin in the Corrupted ancient synth so I don't believe they were fully considered Orokin. They seem to just be more competent variations of Grineer, only their task was as a medic as opposed to a grunt worker.

[Morec0]

Also forgot, Lora are distinguished from Orokin in the Corrupted ancient synth so I don't believe they were fully considered Orokin. They seem to just be more competent variations of Grineer, only their task was as a medic as opposed to a grunt worker.

 

Aye, if there's a cutoff point it seems to have been with the Lorists, with every class equal-to-or-underneath them not being "Grineer". This likely has a lot to do with the genetics and appearance of them - Lorists being heavily augmented.

[Kaokasalis]

This is just a wild guess but i do wonder if Lorists were afflicted by the void like the Tenno but to a lesser degree. If you compare a line from the corrupted ancient synthesis with one from Excaliburs lore entry it kinda mirrior each other.

 

"We made them uncomfortable and they made that known, that is, until they were sick or hurt and then we were saviours."

 

"These rejects, these Tenno, became our saviors."

 

Either that or mabye they was just uncomfortable because they didnt match the Orokin visage. What is a Lora Device anyway? We know that our warframes is a form that gives shape to our powers. This is supported by both Vor and the Excalibur lore entry. Could the Lora devices be something like the Warframes but a far lesser version? I just cant help but wonder wether the Orokin were uncomfortable around the lorists due to void affliction or because of some petty looks.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Ory_Hara

[Morec0]

This is just a wild guess but i do wonder if Lorists were afflicted by the void like the Tenno but to a lesser degree. If you compare a line from the corrupted ancient synthesis with one from Excaliburs lore entry it kinda mirrior each other.

 

"We made them uncomfortable and they made that known, that is, until they were sick or hurt and then we were saviours."

 

"These rejects, these Tenno, became our saviors."

 

Either that or mabye they was just uncomfortable because they didnt match the Orokin visage. What is a Lora Device anyway? We know that our warframes is a form that gives shape to our powers. This is supported by both Vor and the Excalibur lore entry. I just cant help but wonder wether the Orokin were uncomfortable around the lorists due to void affliction or because of some petty looks.

 

I do think the Lorists were created to channel Oro - which I believe to be Void energies of some kind - through themselves to act as a healing agent of sorts. However the Lorists, and possibly Dax even, didn't have the extreme exposure to the Void the Tenno did, and thus didn't have the kind of raw power the Tenno had - it was a more controlled alteration, likely not even physically visible aside from other changes made to them, not the rampant twisted and affliction that the Tenn had.

[Sloan441]

This still bears some thinking on an rereading the older codex entries to reevaluate what's there.

 

Nevertheless, the biggest impression I got from this synthesis is the confirmation of how stratified Orokin society was with an institutional paranoia about access to tech and genetic pollution. This is a serious societal neurosis! It also illuminates a simlar ruthlessness in all their dealings with, well, anyone.

 

It should also illuminate how seperate the tenno were form Orokin society at large. They were probably isolated by design and only very select Orokin would be authorized to deal with them (also makes them easier to turn if you're a sentient mole...).

[SilentMobius]

its pretty implied that they used infested as a weapon in the Old War. and this is bluntly stated in the old J3 Golem asssination,

 

 

Again, even in that old text (that I believe is now replaced by the Lephantis text lore-wise) the exact statement is:

 

"Deep within lurks a creature created by the Orokin to battle the Sentients during the old War"

 

At no point is it claimed that this creature or any other infested creature was deployed, only created. Also nothing regarding the infestation as a whole is ever stated.

 

So "used the infested as a weapon" is not stated, bluntly or otherwise, "created a weapon that may or may not have been used" is the best we can say.

 

I think this is an important point to remember when relying on this as an assumption to base yet more assumptions on.

Edited October 29, 2015 by SilentMobius

[Tengu147]

Aye, that was pointed out in another thread. It's been subjective to MUCH debate and discussion, but we can't really say anything for certain.

Is it possible for you to redirect me to this thread?

[Morec0]

Is it possible for you to redirect me to this thread?

 

It was a in this thread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/543588-orokin-moon-concept-art-representative-of-crewman-synthesis/

[UrielColtan]

Again, even in that old text (that I believe is now replaced by the Lephantis text lore-wise) the exact statement is:

 

"Deep within lurks a creature created by the Orokin to battle the Sentients during the old War"

 

At no point is it claimed that this creature or any other infested creature was deployed, only created. Also nothing regarding the infestation as a whole is ever stated.

 

So "used the infested as a weapon" is not stated, bluntly or otherwise, "created a weapon that may or may not have been used" is the best we can say.

 

I think this is an important point to remember when relying on this as an assumption to base yet more assumptions on.

 

You just want so bad to not be wrong, and you don't even bother to read properly. I already distinguished between creating all infested and using infested against the Sentient, though we know how infested generally works, its not really required that they be created individually, its a virus that spreads. It being the source vector of the area's infested would further support this fact and seem to suggest that the Lephantis source itself was not inhibited from infesting, deployed if you will and having absorbed matter over a millenia.

Though deployed or not, the point is the weapon was created for that purpose of inevitably being deployed for the Old War.

You may just be wanting to wax semantics about whether infested absorbed the Sentients and now infested is part Sentient as well or some crap, but its completely irrelevant to what I am pointing out.

 

Anyway, the general idea is that infested were strategized to be used as a weapon against Sentients, regardless of the assumption about replaced dialogue.

DE's idea set out for infested appeared to be this, and nothing contradicts the general idea of infested being used in the old war against sentients. Which would be fitting considering how Sentients turned their tech against them, so they had to consult a more bio method.

This notion is no mere assumption, its something that has been stated in the game, and has more support behind it than your assumption that Lephantis is replacing the general idea behind the J3 Golem when it honestly doesn't even contradict the basic concept. People are just drawing logical ideas from what has been presented before.

Edited October 29, 2015 by UrielColtan

[Cleesus]

But the infestation is a virus too isn't it, not just the actual "troops"?

The Orokin could have unleashed the actual nana spores against the sentients, not mutated their own soldiers to use as attackers.

When we think of infested we automatically picture chargers and crawlers etc but those are just the current manifestations, perverted Grineer and corpus.

Orokin era infested could have looked very different. If the sentients were turning the Orokins own tech against them, the Orokin may have played them at their own game, releasing the virus itself against the sentients, turning their own bodies against them or at least trying to.

exactly what I was thinking

[Zarozian]

exactly what I was thinking

I think you know the truth though~ o 3o