Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[fatpig84]

Spore needs a huge huge cost reduction, because it is needed for all abilities to be half useful.

Yes I say NEEDED.

[Cleesus]

Merged like 5000 Saryn feedback threads

[Makinar]

-Forced "Synergy" is a drawback. In theory it probably sounded good. In practice it means more energy for less effect. 

 

-Terrible crowd control: Sure Miasma also staggers (for maybe one second) but so does Chaos (for longer) and that nets you AND the team half a minute of virtual immunity per cast. With no falloff.

 

-Terrible damage. Seriously, I would use Equinox for AoE damage over Saryn now. I'd use Frost. At least he can defend himself - and you dont have spend additional energy to charge Avalanche first. At this point I would use a Duration Rhino over Saryn, once his Iron Skin rework hits.

 

-Terrible Survivability: Survivability means different things, to different frames. Loki has AMAZING survivability, because he is often not seen for minutes at a time. Or even whole missions. And when he is, he distracts and robs enemies of their primary weapons. Nyx has amazing Survivability because, Chaos and Absorb. Trinity, for obvious reasons, and Valkyr the same.

 

Saryn has ZERO survivability. Her entire package is predicated on dealing damage as a means to control the battle. Sure she can distract with her Molt, albeit unreliably, at best. But her entire package depends on killing enemies quickly.

 

Except...now she cant do that. Miasma deals terrible damage, and it takes too long to deal that damage. And using additional abilities or forced weapon builds, just to charge an Ultimate...let me ask you WHY I would mod Vaykor Hek for viral to charge Miasma, when modding it with Corrosive just KILLS ALL THE THINGS without Miasma. 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Makinar

[DSMatticus]

Saryn is now capable of massive DPS... if you use certain weapons. A Gas Ignis for example is wonderful, but without a moderate status chance other weapons will fall flat. In addition, you are forced to melee in order to get that massive DPS.

 

However, I think Saryn really shines in higher level now. Her abilities are a waste of energy at low level, but throw on a rage and you will have enrgy for days and melt high level enemies. It is an ironic twist, Saryn used to have poor late game scaling but OP early-mid. Now she has trouble at lower levels and shines in endless play.

Sadly, no. Her damage multiplier (viral is basically a 100% damage multiplier) is one of the worst and most awkward to use in the game, and even with the entire combo strung together new miasma does less damage per cast than old miasma (about 75%, though if you sacrifice efficiency/rng you can get it higher, but that's generally not advised) - if we start talking about damage per second new miasma is a bad joke no matter how you look at it.

 

New Saryn does not scale. She will just make you wish you had Banshee or Nova.

[Damagedice]

Nerfed into the ground LOL. Miasma with max power strength and duration does less damage collectively, even with VIral+Toxic procs up, than it did before with the typical max range - tf - intensify build. Like, ~50%.

 

Not too mention health nerfed despite being specifically told otherwise just beforehand.

 

RIP Saryn indeed.

Considering Miasma did like 8000 damage, being reserved, did you seriously expect to keep that? "Rip saryn." That's all I see,and yet, guaranteed viral proc on spores. Half everything's health in a spreading aoe. Toss it on one target and shoot that before you kill it and soon the whole room's health is halved. It's almost Nova on your 1. Rip Draco, more like. Freaking delusional.

[(XBOX)SixPathsOfHate]

If anything, instead of this "forced synergy" by having to use 4 abilities to do what 1 used to do, fix all her abilities so they are all good on their own but work well together, here is what I was thinking:

 

Passive: All toxic damage heals Saryn.

 

1:SPORE now infects enemies in a radius around and outward of Saryn (radius increased by range) (inflicts viral proc) 

Augment:STICKY REMAINS: Enemies that die while inflicted with SPORE leave TOXIC PATCHES on the ground which slow enemies movement/firerate/ect, and DoT (size of the patches scale with range) (toxic damage scales with damage mods)(duration of patches scales with duration). Patches have a small chance to proc corrosive.

 

2:MOLT: scales with hp and armor that scales with mods. Has innate healing. Deals toxic damage on explosion "scales with damage mods" 

 

3:TOXIC LASH:(Now can be toggled) Buffs all weapons with toxic damage.

Augment:TOXIC OVERLOAD: Enemies killed while affected by SPORE, explode spreading whatever toxic damage they were inflicted with. (Range of explosion is effected by range mods) (Damage of explosion is effected by damage mods)

 

4:MIASMA: (Range doubled) Explodes all SPORE procs dealing damage to all enemies multiplied by number of SPORES out. 100% chance to proc corrosive.

Augment:POISONED AIRWAYS: All enemies killed by MIASMA release gas clouds that fill the air. (Gas clouds Saryn walks through trail her for a fixed amount of time. Enemies standing within the gas clouds are staggered and inflicted with a viral proc)

 

Here is just what I had thought of off the top of my head, pretty sure DE could make something like this and make it work.

These abilities can be used on their own but when put together would work really well while still keeping synergy a wanted feature.

[RiouHotaru]

Here's an easy Saryn build:

 

Aura: Rejuvenation

 

1) Vitality (Max Rank)

2) Rage (Max Rank

3) Primed Continuity (Rank 9)

4) Primed Flow (Rank 9)

5) Streamline (Max Rank)

6) Intensify (Max Rank)

7) Stretch (Max Rank)

8) Regenerative Molt (Max Rank)

 

Now, if I didn't have a 90% belief that Saryn Prime is after Trinity Prime I'd slap on another Forma to reduce Primed Continuity's cost down so I could use Rush in the Utility slot, and Stretch can be replaced with something like Armored Agility, Natural Talent, or Constitution.

 

Also, if you don't have Primed Continuity/Flow, the normal versions work just as well.  I think the main problem is that people are almost utterly dependent on corrupted mods to try and squeeze every last drop of oomph from their build, when honestly the base mods are just as potent.

 

If you don't have Regenerative molt, that frees up a slot as well to put in the aforementioned mods too.  Vigor would push your HP back over 1k I believe?

 

 

Sadly, no. Her damage multiplier (viral is basically a 100% damage multiplier) is one of the worst and most awkward to use in the game, and even with the entire combo strung together new miasma does less damage per cast than old miasma (about 75%, though if you sacrifice efficiency/rng you can get it higher, but that's generally not advised) - if we start talking about damage per second new miasma is a bad joke no matter how you look at it.

 

New Saryn does not scale. She will just make you wish you had Banshee or Nova.

 

 

Nova is so squishy it hurts, and she has absolutely zero survivability options save her ult.  Which is really all she's good for.

 

Banshee's Resonance requires hitting very specific target-points, only spreads to other targets with an augment, and oh yeah, is also clan-tech.

 

Also, New Saryn does scale.  Viral scales right alongside the enemy.  Banshee is a damage multiplier but it's dependent on your DPS, as is Nova.  If your damage has fallen off significantly enough Banshee/Nova won't improve it significantly.  Viral just flat cuts enemy HP in half.

Edited November 5, 2015 by RiouHotaru

[LotusBF]

Wait, there's an update this week? There's a Warframe name Saryn? 

Edited November 5, 2015 by LotusBF

[Kappa64]

Ash prime has more effective hp then saryn making him more base tanky then saryn guess what he's a assassin so he does more damage and runs faster.

 

Miasma does not stun anymore

 

Saryn pollutes the environment with a caustic mist. Enemies within 8 / 10 / 12 / 15 meters are dealt 187.5 / 237.5 / 312.5 / 375 corrosive  damage per tick, with one tick occurring instantaneously followed by one tick every second for a duration of 4 seconds for a total of 937.5 / 1187.5 / 1562.5 / 1875 damage.

 

spores still need to shot or meleed to work and in the middle of battle it can be hard hitting one target in a middle of a group.

 

molt isn't useless but the fact now miasma blows it up and the fact miasma can't be used as a stun it's very poor by itself.

So are you going to compare every Warframe to Ash now, since he has the most EHP?

 

And Miasma does stun, I'd like to know where you got this information.

I literally just ran a T3 Survival and it still was stunning enemies, about a second before killing them.

[GhostLacuna]

Ok time for feedback.

 

Spore is still very very lackluster.  Not only is it still a single target must aim at enemy cast and hope they do  not move in this fast paced game skill it also spreads it spores much less then venom ever did. Venom actually had more spores then what spore did imagine that. 

 

Also if you ever dare to target a weaker enemy by choice or by mistake the probability of it dying without spreading the spores increase to absurd levels pre 20 min in any mission. 

 

So you now waste energy for no benefit at all. 

 

Molt still has plenty of problems and the rework actually made it even worst. 

 

The range is still fixed at 10 Meters no matter how much your game insists that its affected by range mods. This took less then 1 minute to debunk and test ingame. 

 

Ranged attackers aka the most dangerous enemies still target you even when Molt is up. They also  outrange Molt by far and as such is never affected buy procs even if they attack it. 

 

Casting Miasma now ends Molt but perhaps that is a bug. 

 

Lash throws Saryn under the bus and forces here into the most deadly range that exists in the game. Melee. 

 

The fact that you nerfed Saryns EHP by around 10% didn't help at all.  At anything pre 20 minutes in endless missions you still have a high chance that the enemy you casted spore on will die before you can close the gap and reach the target at all. 

 

The blocking mechanic is cute and all but when 184% power strength has it at 0.74% block its not reliable enough to ensure that Saryn is durable enough for melee combat.

 

the Boost of her armor by 20 points to 175 is no where enough to make her durable. That is still less then 38% damage reduction. Rhino has 190 Armor and that is 38.78% damage reduction. 

 

We know the formulas for armor DE unless you changed them recently...

 

Generic Feedback.

 

Using all the skills now cost way to much energy. If we where to try your little Wombo combo you talked about earlier aka  cast spore, cast molt cast spore or molt cast lash, melee enemies then cast miasma we would be out of energy after one combo. This is after deploying a energy pizza at the start of the level and using maxed flow to have 450 energy. 

 

Even without using the whole combo and just using spore, lash, miasma leave you out of energy after around 6-8 enemies unless you are lucky enough to get a good spore chain going. 

 

Effective lost of damage on miasma buffed by both spore and lash is still around 4000-5000 in pure damage since before rework. 

My negative duration build had a Ingame damage of 10000 damage for 0.37 seconds with a 4 second stagger before rework.

 

The whole buff synergy miasma damage post rework aka target has spore target has lash cast miasma is around 4900 over 3.81 seconds and a stagger of 3 seconds. 

 

Still experimenting with it. 

 

Spore benefit from duration, Molt benefit from duration, lash benefit from duration, Miasma the one thing you didn't want to benefit from negative duration actually deal damage faster with negative duration still. 

 

Also you goofed the ticks on miasma they are not every second like you claim in the skill overlay. This is very very easy to test in game. 

 

With the way you have set up Saryn now she suffer from a Classic MAD issue aka Multi Ability Dependency. 

 

You want duration for 1, 2 and 3 but not 4 so cant lower that to much, 

 

You want efficiency our you can never cast your skills but that lowers your duration

 

You want range so you cant use narrowminded for a huge boost to duration nor can you use overextended our you deal no damage at all.

 

You want power strength but that will limit either your duration or your efficiency.

 

So its the clusterfuck that was Ember all over again.

[vashyoung]

as predicted based on there pre release videos of saryn(played by rebecca)

saryn will have a problem on higher level mob.... :))

guns are better than saryn skill kit at the moment...

 

though im happy they didnt remove molt regeneration, thats the other thing that makes saryn valuable at higher level mobs

Edited November 5, 2015 by vashyoung

[MichelPostma]

Not did, are going to. He will launch clones to attack enemies rather than jumping around himself. His invulnerability will likely go to.

Also the Saryn update has been out for what, 30 minutes. Everyone should probably calm down and try some new builds with her before deeming her useless.

Really?! What is this piece of crap?! It's that I like the core of this game but it is trying all it can to destroy it's fan Base like this. Who in the name of all that's holy is giving permission for this?!

[Synitare]

Here's an easy Saryn build:

 

Aura: Rejuvenation

 

1) Vitality (Max Rank)

2) Rage (Max Rank

3) Primed Continuity (Rank 9)

4) Primed Flow (Rank 9)

5) Streamline (Max Rank)

6) Intensify (Max Rank)

7) Stretch (Max Rank)

8) Regenerative Molt (Max Rank)

 

Now, if I didn't have a 90% belief that Saryn Prime is after Trinity Prime I'd slap on another Forma to reduce Primed Continuity's cost down so I could use Rush in the Utility slot, and Stretch can be replaced with something like Armored Agility, Natural Talent, or Constitution.

 

Also, if you don't have Primed Continuity/Flow, the normal versions work just as well.  I think the main problem is that people are almost utterly dependent on corrupted mods to try and squeeze every last drop of oomph from their build, when honestly the base mods are just as potent.

 

If you don't have Regenerative molt, that frees up a slot as well to put in the aforementioned mods too.  Vigor would push your HP back over 1k I believe?

 

 

 

 

Nova is so squishy it hurts, and she has absolutely zero survivability options save her ult.  Which is really all she's good for.

 

Banshee's Resonance requires hitting very specific target-points, only spreads to other targets with an augment, and oh yeah, is also clan-tech.

 

Also, New Saryn does scale.  Viral scales right alongside the enemy.  Banshee is a damage multiplier but it's dependent on your DPS, as is Nova.  If your damage has fallen off significantly enough Banshee/Nova won't improve it significantly.  Viral just flat cuts enemy HP in half.

 

Okay. And what does this offer you that essentially any other frame can't do better?

[TuxPenguino]

So basically there is no way endgame users and high level runners will be able to sustain in a duration mission with her abilities as they are.

 

Level Ranking and Scaling will be her only salvation!!! (Devs eluded to scaled dmg outputs depending on mission lvl.

[Damagedice]

Spore guarantees viral on anything it hits. That's strong as absolute F on its own. Molt can drop your aggro and let you reposition, and heal with augment. Lash is hampered by melee being what it is, but if you want a melee build then the block boost has what I think would help make it doable. Miasma is good. But it isn't free win. Objectively it is worse. But it is so freaking ignorant to say saryn as a whole is worse. When did we get to a point where anything that you have to play is bad? F, how is everything having half the life bad?? Because you have to shoot it now?!

The synergy is there to still make miasma powerful, at least with work, and not instant near 10k powerful. The moves work themselves. You don't have to sit there spamming 4 then wondering why you had no energy. It's because you spammed 4. How bout try spreading spores and infecting crowds and cutting them down. Half healthed foes even an hour into survival. Corrosive weapon, but viral procs. Devastation. Actually try.

[Aquasurge]

I would like to prefess this by saying; DE I appreciate all the hard work and coding that went into these changes. The idea is great on paper, creating a universal synergy with Saryn. I've done a lot of testing with these new changes as Saryn was the first frame I ever got and is still my favorite. 

 

1st Note: General. The damage Saryn can put out scales much better than it could before and she has a much more active and enjoyable play style to her. I did however try to mod her with a mid range build (purposely not using my "top tier" mods) and she is unplayable without the perfect, or near perfect, mod setup. 

 

2nd Note: Regenerative Molt: The point of augments is to provide a supplement change to a warframe's ability in a utility aspect. Regenerative molt did this very well before as Saryn was primarily a caster frame. Now that she is being shaped into more of a bruiser role this mod is a must to give her survive-ability, when an augment becomes a must use mod it should be considered to simply be added to the ability. Take excaliber's planned radial blind augment that was Incorporated into the ability. I feel the same logic applies here.

 

3rd Note: Team Play: Testing Saryn in solo mode was a blast, but I noticed that when I forgot to keep solo mode on it was a disaster. With the amount of effort it takes to build up her "money shot" just to have someone like ember clear the room with her single ability makes you feel like you just spent the last 10 minutes giving head unsuccessfully, in the end no one is happy. 

 

4th Note: Practicality: Saryn's rework can be summarized in a single word: unpractical. The energy demand is too high unless you run rage with regenerative molt, she is being played off as some kind of bruiser frame but when level 50 enemies stroll in a single bombard shot can kill her right off, there is a difference between synergy and prerequisite. Excaliber has synergy as his abilities assist one another without being neccisary for one another to function optimally. They offer different play styles while Saryn's abilities lock you into either a melee centric build or a "hide behind molt and pray there are no bombards" build. 

 

But enough critique; what are my suggestions? I'm not sure if you will read this post or not, but here is what I think could be done to improve Saryn.

 

1: Regenerative molt should probably be a static part of molt honestly. It's becoming a must use staple in her kit anyways, so I don't think that was the purpose of the augment mods. 

 

2: Spores should spread on death. I said it. It would make her game play more smooth and would allow a team synergy. Ember kills an enemy with your spores? No problem.

 

3: Molt is working well. Good job! However a similar invulnerability phase like snow globe would be a good idea to avoid another rhino iron skin mess. learn from your mistakes DE! lol. 

 

4: Venom lash should give static damage reduction not parry reduction. Perhaps increase the base duration? I'm not just whining about this either, quite frankly the biggest thing holding Saryn out of upper tier missions is her lack of survivability. Her molt ability does provide some cover for her, but from my testing it just is not enough. With regen molt you can manage but a frame should be playable without mods. No frame design should rely on mods. 

 

5: Miasma is tricky. I've always felt like it should lay down a cloud of gas. I mean, her name is Sarin (Saryn). Perhaps if this was a cloud you could make any enemies that die inside of it with spores on them will instantly spread them. Or add a slowing effect within the cloud, which leads me into my next point.

 

6: Saryn lacks practical CC. Her molt provides her with a semblance of CC but not enough to actually keep her alive. I think its time to step away from the drawing board here and hop in the game. Play some star chart missions, no more of this simulacrum testing. Also keep in mind, you might be a lot better at them game than the average player.

 

She is clunk and hard to use. A majority of players are not satisfied with her current state and I don't think changing some numbers around will be enough to fix her... Just my honest opinion as a long time Saryn main. Keep up the good work DE, we appreciate it. I'm sure you guys will get this all sorted out. Contrary to what many people on this thread think, you do care about your player base, otherwise she wouldn't have gotten the first rework. 

volt has the same problem with shocking speed.

[RiouHotaru]

Okay. And what does this offer you that essentially any other frame can't do better?

 

Really?  That's your counter?

 

"Why use Saryn when you could use Banshee/Nova/Nyx/etc?"

 

That's a stupid argument and everyone knows it.  Some people may want to use a specific frame because it fits their playstyle.  Or they like the design.  Or the powers.  That's like saying "Why take Hydroid?"  Yes, other frames do damage/CC better, but if you don't have access to those, or don't like using them, you have alternatives.

[(XBOX)SixPathsOfHate]

Spore guarantees viral on anything it hits. That's strong as absolute F on its own. Molt can drop your aggro and let you reposition, and heal with augment. Lash is hampered by melee being what it is, but if you want a melee build then the block boost has what I think would help make it doable. Miasma is good. But it isn't free win. Objectively it is worse. But it is so freaking ignorant to say saryn as a whole is worse. When did we get to a point where anything that you have to play is bad? F, how is everything having half the life bad?? Because you have to shoot it now?!

The synergy is there to still make miasma powerful, at least with work, and not instant near 10k powerful. The moves work themselves. You don't have to sit there spamming 4 then wondering why you had no energy. It's because you spammed 4. How bout try spreading spores and infecting crowds and cutting them down. Half healthed foes even an hour into survival. Corrosive weapon, but viral procs. Devastation. Actually try.

But whats the benefit from having to go around and half lives when i can just tonkor their face and atomos the halls clean instead of burning some precious energy to do what could be done in seconds?

[Atmos_Tech]

Really?  That's your counter?

 

"Why use Saryn when you could use Banshee/Nova/Nyx/etc?"

 

That's a stupid argument and everyone knows it.  Some people may want to use a specific frame because it fits their playstyle.  Or they like the design.  Or the powers.  That's like saying "Why take Hydroid?"  Yes, other frames do damage/CC better, but if you don't have access to those, or don't like using them, you have alternatives.

 

There's nothing wrong with distinguishing from good frames and roleplaying frames.

[slach32]

я надеюсь вам так же кто нибудь насрёт на голову\как вы игрокам своей обновой сарины

[RiouHotaru]

There's nothing wrong with distinguishing from good frames and roleplaying frames.

 

...What?

 

I'm sorry, but what?

[RayPerth]

I have a fun idea... use saryn + nyx and let them pop each other... it doesn't help much since you can just simply pop them with one bullet, although I'm not sure if they can actually hit the spore, but I think it's fun to watch lol

Edited November 5, 2015 by lazy529

[bubbabenali]

Can we pls get in consensus that Viral is not the holy grail of scaling.

And can be way better spread with an Amperax or an Ignis or the Rakta Cernos.

If you dont do damage to a lvl 80 enemy its does not help if it only has 50% hp for 6 (oh sry I forgot about Saryn cool passive it's 7.5) seconds.

[izzatuw]

I don't find it too bad. Used her 1st than spread it out a bit in Draco. Pressed Miasma and a level 42 arson eximus dropped with 90% health left.

[deathstar2190]

heres a idea

 

use molt, spore that molt then use ur aoe weapon of choice ( i perfer sonicor )

 

enjoy ur free aoe viral proc :P