Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[LordBeeBrain]

What about making spore an AOE ability?

 

The initial spore can be cast and will explode when it hits a solid object or enemy and spread more spores in that area. The the other spores can be shot to spread more spores like they already do.

[EthosP]

This is not right... I can't even understand how this is right.

So we just got Saryn rework which destroyed "press 4 to anihilate" meta and instead replaced it with some awesome ability synergising that requaires Saryn player to use all of his skills + melee to drown enemies in combination of viral and toxin procs.

Basically: Toxic lady just got more toxic than ever. And she actually puts effort and dedication into it!

And then, obviously, forums got drowned in topics like "Saryn is dead", "RIP Saryn", "What a nerf" etc.

Alright, this is fine. This always happens. This is something that Warframe community got used to by now.

But then i saw someone mentioning "Bladestorm nerf mentioned on a devstream".

My first thought was "what is he talking about? They were talking about rework. I don't remember word "nerf" said even once..."

And then i was like "OH MY GOODNES. He calls rework a nerf even though he has no idea how it will look like!"

This is a concept that i can't understand.

"Press one button to win" doesn't sound like a good nor healthy meta for a coop-based game. I understand that this is very efficient and saves time, but is it fun? Unless it kills only 1 enemy per press in a brutal way (Hey Atlas!) i can't see how this is fun.

Not for the user himself but for his team that just stands there and do nothing because they simply can't. Makes them wonder why are they even there.

This is not right... This is not right!

*Screams internally in horror*

Human nature scares me...

And humans in general (Q _ Q)

EDIT: as you can see below - topic pretty much derailed from it's original purpose that i had in mind. Not even close.

So i'll just repeat my thought in short: people are starting to declare reworks to be nerfs by default, simply because it breaks their current "press X to win" meta.

Not a good thing, kids. Stahp it.

People have fun in different ways. Just because you don't find something fun doesn't mean it's not fun to someone else.

[NEONOVUS]

You just have to use the syndicate mod on it, dead ennemies will cast a toxic cloud ^^

 

And after some hours of play with her rework, I can say I love it. More synergy, and even more damages. Even the molt can buff the miasma (if you use miasma on it, it will cast spores when disapearing), the 3 + syndicate mod is really cool too. 

 

I love the fact that you should use toxin/viral weapons more than other ones, she becomes specialised

The problem being is that augment is shortly going to be a mandatory mod for this to work, something DE should have avoided all together.

A more interesting option would have been to make toxic lash like Nova's 1, a short ranged bunch of tendrils/roots shooting out and proccing poison scaling off your melee.

Then let the augment make the cloud, making it less of an issue for saryn to proc toxin and giving her something that allows her to effect crowds while setting up.

[ElementEater]

my thoughts doubt u care but here it is im just sticking to negatives to avoid a huge post and cus im lazy plus the negatives are what need to be changed

 

1 - comboing powers is fine the problem is that now saryns powers feel diminished if not being directly used with each other kinda feels like you went from one extreme to another

 

2 - ok so this is pretty basic design but I feel you kinda missed it a little. If you are building a character with an inherently trickier/more resource intensive system of use(in this case saryns combo) the affects need to justify the effort. in this instance I feel saryn simply doesn't cut it. In what instance is this increased cost going to justify itself over say shooting things or using another warframe. saryn is investing a ton in getting result that is really pretty average and in some cases extremely inefficient. I think if you want this synergy system to work you really need to make it pay off hard.

 

3-  her spore mechanics are clunky, like real clunky. on anything that isn't extremely tough I can struggle to hit the spores or I can just shoot the enemy which stacks up to be much more efficient even vs crowds. The spores should explode on death not on hit this would make her feel so much more fluid to play imo and would do wonders. It would also greatly improve her teamplay as allies wouldn't destroy your hard work by simply nuking your spore targets before you've gained anything from it. Plus I love the flavour of this system rather then just making a random poison blob to pop. you add your spore to a creature it matures the host dies and the pod pops spreading to new hosts feels much more in keeping with theme to me

 

4 - hp decrease I honestly don't understand this at all it just seems really odd id love to know what the reasoning is behind it she is a great tanky warframe why would u decrease her health? I just don't see any logic, is her new set supposed to offset this survivability change because it really doesn't at all

 

5 - saryn functions really poorly with others now as she doesn't do a huge amount and she is dismantled by team mates destroying your spore victims

 

overall  gunna say i'm  disappointed with this rework saryn has always been my joint favourite along with trinity and id really hoped to finally see her become more then just a simple one power frame but in doing so you've pretty much just neutered her. What positive changes weve got(and there were positive changes) just don't really feel they do enough to make it feel like she's come out of this well.  I think ill take a break from the game for a while maybe come back in abit and see if things have improved.

 

edit: id just like to add that pardoxbombs suggestions above are really good ones particularly regarding toxic lash and molt

Edited November 5, 2015 by ElementEater

[DxAdder]

It's not rocket science, both Mesa and Saryn WERE Burst/Heavy DPS frames and had a place.

 

Now there both just mediocre frames that bring nothing to a group that can't be done by another frame and will bring more to the group.

 

DPS was there purpose now they have no place and no longer required in endgame. i.e Mastery Fodder.

[Burq]

Do you even play the game? You can't even put a dent in a LV40 Bombard without doing the 214 combo at least 3x and spamming spore on it does nothing much even if you pop them and recast and do it a couple of times over, same with Heavies just not as bad. Quite frankly, I'm calling you on your BS that you even play Saryn, show me a screenshot of you doing "significant damage" to something high level that isn't innately weak to corrosive to begin one. I don't buy it one bit, same goes for all the people out there that says its a buff not a nerf. Show us the proof, until then you're all just trolling.

 

Pretty much this. I've seen people saying how Saryn scales super well but so far I have not seen any proof of this, not even a screen shot, only simulacrum pics show how terrible it's now.

 

So yeah, we kinda need proof it can actually scale at all.

[Multicom-EN-]

What about making spore an AOE ability?

 

The initial spore can be cast and will explode when it hits a solid object or enemy and spread more spores in that area. The the other spores can be shot to spread more spores like they already do.

THIS! Make it a 7-10 meter AOE ability so it actually is useful. Just pop Spore and cast Miasma right after. 

[Numbsky1]

Having to press more buttons seems to be more engaging to you and that is fine but having to spend ~3x the amount of energy to achieve the same results as before during a longer time frame, THAT is what people normally would call a nerf.

 

If your car suddenly needed more fuel and took longer to reach the same speed than before what would you call that? An improvement? I think not.

If they fix the energy consumption we might come to terms and not call it a nerf but in its current state only an imbecile can not see the issue. 

[Othergrunty]

Still have to do some testing. So this is basicly just my first impression.

 

1. Health:

So far i'm missing that extra health i had previously. The armor increase does not seem to balance it out. However regenerative molt seems to profit from the reduced health, being able to put you up to full health quicker.

 

2. Venom -> Spores:

I get the impression the spores are now harder to see than before. Though i admit might have just used the wrong maps so far.

I have a few issues hitting them to unleash the spread effect.

Otherwise i'm not seeing a lot of improvement in damage potential. So far the enemies still seem to die more from my gunfire than the spores and on tanky enemies they don't really make much of a difference.

Also finding ideal enemy groups is always an issue and Lotus help you if a nullifier is nearby who just prevents them from working.

 

So far i don't really think the ability is any worse, though i'm still looking if it's an improvement.

 

3. Molt:

Still works great, especialy with regenerative molt. While applying spores to it, is a nice bonus, setting the trap up is more bothersome than truely helpfull. You are always better off casting the spores on enemies.

 

Also the enemy attraction of the molt is not really that usefull.

 

Still my go to ability on Saryn.

 

4. Contagion -> Toxic Lash:

The entire description of the ability now revolves around being able to break open spores to spread them, which i think is somewhat bothersome since it hides all the other qualities of the ability, like the increased damage output.

It now sounds like it's just an extra for spores, rather than an ability to use on it's own.

 

While synergy is a nice concept, i prefer each ability to work on it's own, which also means that ability descriptions should stay seperated from each other.

 

Still have to do some testing with the increased damage.

 

5. Miasma:

Hate to be negative but this ability feels half hearted now. It's not really a nuke anymore, especialy with things like Monecular Prime still around. Even with strength increased a group of level 33 Moas now survive it, which she previously turned to molten soup. So it's room clearer quality seems to have gone.

 

It's not really much utility either, since the "in pain" effect is rather short. Which means you are not gonna get much time to escape from or finish a group of enemies around you with your more powerfull weapons.

 

Again i'm still gonna do some testing to see if it isn't more helpfull as escape tool now.

 

6. Synergy:

It seems Saryn's rework was based around the idea to synergize her abilities more, especialy boosting the usage of spores. However while synergy as possebility is nice, i prefer (as said before) each ability to be a valuable tool on it's own.

 

I prefer to be able to pick one ability and use it to it's full effect, rather than having to chain multiple abilities for the same effect.

 

Hopefully in further testing i will find each ability still being usefull in it's own right.

So TO THE LAB!*

 

*That means the brutal battlefield of the post Orokin war torn solar system.

[K0bra]

Having to press more buttons seems to be more engaging to you and that is fine but having to spend ~3x the amount of energy to achieve the same results as before during a longer time frame, THAT is what people normally would call a nerf.

 

If your car suddenly needed more fuel and took longer to reach the same speed than before what would you call that? An improvement? I think not.

If they fix the energy consumption we might come to terms and not call it a nerf but in its current state only an imbecile can not see the issue. 

This^^

Its a huge nerf and she is very weak now.Feels wrong for me.Thats the first rework since some time that i dislike alot.The others was pretty well done

Edited November 5, 2015 by K0bra

[FlyingLlama]

Spore should spread corrosive procs, so Saryn actually has a niche role in higher level missions.

[rawr1254]

Spore should spread corrosive procs, so Saryn actually has a niche role in higher level missions.

Miasma is what procs corrosive

[LunarTemplar]

Because people WANT  the game to be easy and brainless, and any effort on their part is seen as bad and there for a 'nerf' to that Frame.

 

This is why people think Mesa's Peacemaker was nerfed when in reality, that's far from the case, since ya know, you can focus fire on the important targets now instead of randomly gunning down the whole room. It's little more then lazy people wanting to stay lazy, nothing more.

[Cookedtoast]

Yes to pretty much all that but the invul/health buff to molt. Molt needs to die to be useful.

Added some changes to spore to make it so molt doesn't need to die as much.

[Darzk]

Started to add feedback to the megathread and it turned into a three page monstrosity. I'll link it to the thread instead. :D

 

Let me preface with; I love the rework, it was badly needed, and most of the mechanics are great. Spore is quite useful and linking it off of Molt is brilliant. Melee Saryn is much more viable now as well. I have no problem with the slight ehp reduction (~10%) for the badly needed energy cap increase (+50%).

 

After a day of testing, solo missions, void missions in a group, discussions with other players in-game and on the forums, and a great deal of Simulacrum testing, I have come up with a number of 'problems' and potential solutions that would make Saryn much more userfriendly and effective, without losing the ability synergy or making her too powerful (Obviously implementing only some of them, not all, that would be quite OP).

 

 

#1 Energy costs

A full rotation of Molt, Spore and Miasma costs a base of 175 energy, or 7 energy orbs. If you use Toxic Lash as well you're looking at your entire 225 energy pool for a single rotation of abilities. Because players are wary of installing Fleeting Expertise (see #2) you end up with a rotation cost (at a minimum) of ~125 or 5 energy orbs; in order to have ~5 energy orbs drop from the enemies killed you need to have killed a group of 20-30 enemies, which is absurd.

 

Solutions;

a) Reduce the energy cost for Molt and/or Spore. Perhaps make Spore free when cast on Molt or targets affected by a Toxin proc. 

b) Add energy regeneration in some form; when Spores pop, or a tiny amount per second for each spore active. Energy generation should be for Saryn only, not the whole team.

c) See #5 b), add some way to generate energy from tanking damage (built in Rage, etc). 

 

#2 Modding/Duration

With your debuffs, DoTs, and combo timing all dependent on keeping high duration, modding becomes quite tricky. You need all of Strength, Range, Duration, and Efficiency and it's not really possible with Corrupted mods. Not everyone has access to Primed Continuity, especially newer players, and without it it's hard to get back to full duration while FE is installed (takes 2 slots or a range reduction). Meaning the best you can do with max efficiency is ~108% duration, 145% range, and 130% strength (takes 6 slots, which means no more rage+vit+RMolt), which is disappointing when non-duration dependent frames easily reach 185% strength or 235% range with similar stats. In order to make Miasma hit much harder and/or last longer, it is necessary to drop Fleeting Expertise, which makes energy costs unreasonable (see #1). Balancing Corrupted mods to get more of a stat boost results in no remaining slots for ehp mods, making Saryn rather fragile.

 

Solutions:

a) Increase the base range or damage of Miasma slightly (Patch notes say the base damage went up, when in fact it went from 375 to 350 per tick with 4 ticks instead of 5 ticks at base, went from 1875 to 1400, a 25% reduction in base damage). Increasing the base damage reduces the need for strength, while adding range would reduce the need for modding to increase range.

b) Make her passive +25% duration, to abilities as well as status procs. In addtion, make more than 100% duration unhelpful; either ticks stop doing damage (still apply status) or they reduce in damage/tick to make the same total. This would make ~75% duration a set goal, much more reasonable, instead of 'as much as you can'.

c) Increase the duration of the Viral status to 8 seconds (I toss this in here because it should be like this globally, imo)

d) Release Primed Streamline, or give us another mod to increase Efficiency without compromising other needed stats; a Nightmare mod that gives +20% efficiency (and some other small boost) would be sufficient

e) See #1 c), adding some form of built in Rage would remove the need for that mod to counter energy costs, freeing up a slot.

f) Bring back the duration scaling considered during testing, which made damage/tick go up when duration dropped. I personally don't like this option but it would be a solution to the modding troubles.

 

Those 2 are the biggest issues, but there's a few ability-specific troubles as well;

 

#3 Spore

The biggest problem with spreading Spores in a team, without the use of Molt, is teammates killing a Spore'd target before you are able to pop the spores (either through an AoE or not caring/noticing the spores), effectively wasting your cast entirely. The solution here is fairly obvious - make enemies with Spores active spread them upon death. If this is a little too powerful in a crowd, at least implement this on the *initial* target of the Spore ability. This would also help immensely with the 'stack toxin procs on an enemy and spread them with Spore' tactic, which currently struggles to make the actual detonation before the enemy is killed from the toxin procs. Finally, this would remove the currently near-overwhelming AoE weapons like the Ignis are getting for popping spores.

 

Spores often do not appear visually and cannot be popped for a second or so on some enemies. This occurred with the old Venom as well, and it feeds into the problem above. 

 

#4 Molt

This one's doing pretty good; I like the increased threat and explosion range a lot. All it really needs is a way to detonate it manually without spending more energy. If adding this to the ability is too tough, simply allowing us to shoot/hit it and kill it ourselves would help immensely, both with energy costs and making it more user friendly.

 

I ran into a bug today where the Molt would continually despawn as soon as I cast it, without detonating. Very frustrating, would only stay active like 1 in 5 cast attempts.

 

An augment to make Molt spawn with Spore already applied to it would be very helpful, reducing both the energy required and the time needed to set up Miasma. Might be too overused, but you would have the option of not using it to use the slot for more duration/range/strength instead. (See #5 d) for what would happen to Regenerative Molt)

 

While Molt's increased threat/aggro range is really nice, it does present some problems. The ability is quite easily 'killed' at higher levels, and the spawn location (right on top of you) means that nearby enemies turn and immediately fire *right at you*, which is a good way to get yourself killed. Molt would be immensely more helpful if it had a ~2 second absorption period similar to Snowglobe, and spawned a few steps in front of or beside you (in front would also make the 'Spore on Molt' combo easier/quicker).

 

#5 Toxic Lash

This is a much better concept for making melee Saryn pretty viable; it's a little buggy right now but fixed up it'll work well. Currently it's very inconsistent as to whether it will decide to spread Spore or not - it almost never spreads if the Spore was applied very recently (ie cast+hit and no spread, cast+wait+hit works[this is likely a problem with Spore rather than TL]). It also seems not to spread when using quick attacks (unconfirmed). The damage amplification feels very weak, tho. I'm not entirely sure it's working correctly.

 

There's a bit of a missed opportunity here to make TL an ability-weapon like EB/Hysteria/Landslide. It wouldn't need that level of damage and this is more of a personal desire to see Saryn wielding a glowing toxin whip than anything to do with balance. :D

 

The added blocking is very hit or miss. It's nice and effective on weapons that previously blocked only a small percentage of damage (~35%) but it's fairly negligible when using a weapon that would normally block 85% of incoming damage. Plus, when you're blocking you're not normally at risk of death, that occurs when attacking/knocked down etc.

 

Finally, the biggest problem with TL is the same thing that plagued Contagion; it has no role in caster/guns gameplay. It's not needed to burst spores, weapons/molt is much more efficient, and the blocking bonus to ehp is not helpful when not holding a sword.

 

Solutions (apart from bugfixes, damage amp):

a) Make the damage reduction granted by TL the same for any melee weapon, and the same when using ranged weapons. Instead of (increases ehp by 50% for hammers, 650% for daggers, 0% for guns), maybe make it a straight ~10-25% damage resistance while active.

b) Help with energy generation - ~2-5% of damage taken while TL is active is removed and converted to energy.

c) Replace the blocking buff with a movement speed increase (getting there sooner is the same as taking less damage while getting there).

d) Switch the Regenerative Molt augment to Regenerative Lash, and allow TL to cause either healing or Life Strike (without needing to pull out the weapon). If you were to swap the Regenerative Molt augment to TL, I have the perfect idea for the Molt augment - Molt spawns with Spore already cast upon it. This helps with both the energy costs and helps reduce the setup time for Miasma.

e) Make the toxin proc caused by meleeing to be based on the ability damage, or the entire toxin damage on the weapon, or something to make it deal significantly more damage/tick than it does now. Amplifying the damage of the DoT would give us a reason to prefer breaking Spores using TL than Molt or a weapon.

 

#6 Miasma

I just want to reiterate something from earlier - pre-rework Miasma dealt 1875 damage totally unmodded. Post rework it deals 1400 damage. I'm okay with you feeling the need to reduce the damage of the ability now that it can be buffed, but a 25% reduction in base damage is a bit harsh. I'm especially irritated by this line in the patch/change notes:

• Miasma Revisions
  • Increase base damage overall 

Please. I could understand a statement like 'with the 3x damage from Toxin and Viral procs present on the target, Miasma now deals more damage than before' or something like that. But base damage implies unbuffed, unmodified, and it was reduced by 25%.

 

I suspect that someone at DE goofed, or was unaware that pre-rework unmodded Miasma dealt 5 ticks of damage, while post-rework only deals 4. I could understand the drop from 1500 to 1400 damage as a ~7% reduction, but the 25% number just seems like way too much.

 

If the 3x damage from synergy was intended to make up for the ~2.4x damage previously possible from reduction duration pre-rework, than there doesn't seem to be a need to reduce the base damage so drastically as well, when setting up the toxin+viral statuses costs additional energy and time.

 

Solution

a) Give Miasma it's 5th tick back, or increase the damage per tick to ~400.

b) Alternatively, buff the range so we can use that range slot to make up the lost damage - see #2 a).

 

Conclusion:

I really like the rework so far, but there's a lot of little tweaks that could make her far more engaging, effective, and attractive to players. I don't think I've suggested anything here too excessive, overpowered, or difficult to implement.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Darzk

[YasaiTsume]

Some QoL after playing Saryn for a day :

- Molt spawn could start slightly infront of Saryn instead of spawning off her location. This being easier to spread Spore onto a Molt for a split second before walking off. (COULD AFFECT GAMEPLAY)

- Casting Miasma right after casting Molt, both abilities having no cast time in between, causes the Molt to stay unexploded on most cases. Could fix or intended?

- Sometimes casting Miasma while bullet jumping or falling from a height will cause Saryn to cast Miasma twice. 

 

- Spore could have a mini spread similar to Ice Wave 

 

- Saryn could use a buff to Sprint speed due to needing to weave around enemies very quickly to apply all my abilities. A slight buff would do nicely.

Edited November 5, 2015 by YasaiTsume

[Darzk]

My feedback thread; I also think the biggest issue right now is energy consumption and Miasma losing a full tick of damage. I'd also love to see Toxic Lash useful when not running a melee build, in some fashion. *Lots* more inside.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Darzk

[Aeriax]

Holy crap does Saryn burn through energy fast.

 

Too fast to be anywhere remotely close to useful. I also agree with a lot of the people saying that individually, her powers aren't actually all that great and have to be chained in order for her to deal damage. This however feeds into problem one... She burns through energy like no other.

 

Also, why was her survivability nerfed? Toxic lash requires going into close quarters, which opens her up to more damage. I don't see the rationale here. Also is it just me or does Miasma have no effect on enemies beyond arms length with no range mods? :\

[DarkMutant]

Is it possible to score more than +200% damage for miasma?

 

Someone told me that miasma was capped at +200% damage from one toxin proc and 1 viral proc ONLY.

 

I need to know quick if you can stack viral and/or toxin or not.

 

And if you can, is miasma's damage multiplication capped??

 

Thanks.

[nonscience]

I actually enjoy this rework.
At least all of her skills now have a usefulness and some degree of efficiency depending on the situation.

 

She became a constant caster with multiple options to enhance her attacks. You now just need to either combine skills to maximize effects or cast one of them and rely on weapon to propagate it in some way or another.

Her newly changed first three abilities are a relief to me. I missed a decent venom (ok, spore) since it went down the nerf road. The rework put it back on my fav list. Now molt finally has a real aggro zone that is not only noticeable but can turn into a real game changer if used properly. Toxic lash is also very friendly to my perma-channeling weapons.
I don't mind that her miasma has been somehow downgraded. The trade is fair and I hate mono skill games. Now Saryn needs a quick mind to adapt to the situation and I love it.

Does it need tweaks and tuning? Yes, as has been the case after every rework.

She now relies too heavily on every single enhancement mod (duration, power and range) and creating a build I can see as my definitive loadout has been (and still is) a pain today. Her life/armour changes made her weaker and combined with the building troubles, I can't see any way to use syndicate mods so far.

 

Anyway, she's fun and I'll see how it turns in the next few weeks.

[KittyDarkling]

I can't help but feel like 90% of the salt here is from players who live on Draco.

 

     Anyway, So far so good with Saryn's rework, The energy buff was much appreciated, and the Skill synergy works very well even at very high tier. I'm still doing more testing but I have to agree it would be nice if Spore provided some benefit upon death if no spores were popped.  Additionally someone else mentioned making Molt capable of recasting so it'd detonate for free, This would be another great QoL tweak, but aside from these two things I think she's really good where she is.

 

On a last note I really think the community needs time to adjust to the changes before collecting feedback. The kneejerk is very real.

[Gammaion]

I think people fail to realize that this is a horde-mode style game. Killing floor comes to mind. Dumb AI, huge legions of enemies that need to be obliterated or controlled at a moment's notice. Press-4-to-win or something along the lines of that is necessary for Saryn. Or most frames in general, but this thread is for poor Saryn. You took that away from her, and look what happened.

 

Saryn is - or was - a room clearer with a bit of tankiness thrown in there. Now she has nothing going for her that another frame can't do significantly better.

 

Please DE, please take another look at her. And get more competent testers while you're at it. I have not the slightest doubt that there is an excess of dedicated players willing to test your game for you.

[MechaKnight]

Seeing 44 pages in less than 24 hours tells me many, many people are angry.

 

I'll try to make a concise yet complete review of the new Saryn rework based on my experience and tests.

 

The rework's theme is very good, and the current features have appeared from users on the forums for at least a year now. The problem is in numbers and comparison. This Saryn rework may have been sufficient as of Update 14, but as of now reworks have passed for Ash, Banshee, Ember, Excalibur, Frost, Hydroid, Mesa, Nova, Nyx, Valkyr, Volt, and Zephyr. A number of new warframes have also been introduced to the game. That said, the bar has been raised for warframes, so Saryn's performance in comparison has to reflect this.

 

Previously, Saryn was once quite average before corrupted mods, then introduction of corrupted mods with negative duration gave her this meta build which focused on spamming damage and stun. It was effective.

 

Many players got bored of min-maxing to focus primarily on one ability, and wanted more. The concepts seemed good on paper but this rework's execution is lacking in a number of ways.

 

1) If time = vitality, and damage saves time, slow damage over time kits are hazardous to everyone. It is definitely within Saryn's theme to deal damage over time. However, when this rework was announced I was hoping to see a general increase in her effective health. This was not the case when she lost ~10% EHP. When Saryn spends so much time building combos through her abilities, she gives enemies more time to shoot her, her molt, her team, and any defense or escort objective.

 

Previously, Saryn's AoE spam delivered a defensive stun that protected everyone  in range by stunning the enemies in range of Miasma. However, the current iteration for Saryn focused on multiple attributes to use energy less efficiently, which results in a lack of crowd control. Due to her sustained presence in combat, Saryn should have defensive attributes similar to Atlas, and Molt should be more durable. Since she can no longer spam stuns through Miasma effectively on most builds, Molt is too fragile to defend for long, and Spore does not slow, stun, or otherwise disable enemies.Saryn also lacks the speed to jump in or evade from combat, despite having three abilities that work best in close-quarters.

 

2) What is her niche now? Previously, she was a burst area damage dealer with the ability to be built for high efficiency. This majorly fulfilled a damage niche, and minorly filled a safety niche. As of now, the damage is definitely not fast, so she's not a burst damage dealer. Frost, Oberon, and Mag are still able to deal instant damage AoEs. Saryn can not stun as often as she used to previously. One can say she's a sustained damage dealer, but Equinox fills this niche better with mobility, efficiency, and the ability to save damage over time for a burst of damage. One can say Saryn is a debuffer, but Banshee and Nova can be built to suit this purpose while providing extremely wide area disabling support against enemies. Atlas, Nekros, and Valkyr can summon targets and/or take hits depending on their respective build to protect their teammates. So... what does Saryn do now? She's not durable enough to distract, not fast enough to scout, not dispensable enough to provide stun, out-competed for sustained and burst damage, as well as for debuffing support. She can not heal her team or feed them energy, or buff them without augments that 4 other warframes have. So what does she do uniquely? Sadly as of now, nothing.

 

3) Combos are expensive. It was nice to see her base energy increased to 150, but in practice she uses more energy than is comfortable refilling without a supporter like Limbo or Trinity. She's simply very inefficient now. She would greatly benefit from a combo mechanic to discount energy costs. See Atlas and Valkyr's energy reductions. Casting various abilities in a chain reduces the overall cost of these actions. Saryn definitely needs this feature.

 

Solutions as of this time...

1) Increase her durability. She is built to get close to hordes of enemies to lay down Molt, attack with Toxic Lash, and deliver radial damage via Miasma. Her armor and health values should reflect this.

 

2) Combo energy discounts. If you aim Spore at Molt, reduce the cost. If Miasma is cast in the presence of a Molt, reduce its cost. If you cast Spore multiple times, discount the cost of each successive cast.

 

3) Increase supportive niche with slowing effects. To help keep Saryn competitive, Spore and perhaps Miasma should slow enemies down by some percentage. This would keep herself, her team, and defense objectives safe.

 

That's my current synopsis for Saryn's feedback. I'll be watching the thread to see how it evolves.

[NinjaShotGunGuy]

I disagree that she scales better in end game now. I took saryn to raids and T4 missions and even endurance runs all the time and did really well (up until we would run into lvl 300+ enemies but nothing holds up too well against them, except for two Equinox's). The bottom line is that even with the combo her ult does less damage. The numbers literally don't add up when you compare the damage her ult did before to what it does now with this combo.

[Quicksylver]

I've toyed around with a couple builds and I can safely say that this was a nerf straight up. The other abilities were buffed yes (adding 1% more damage to something counts as a buff so buff is very subjective) but miasma was entirely neutered. I've toyed around with some combos and in the time it takes to apply spores pop them with toxic lash and then miasma for an energy cost of over 170 (while maintaining power strength, range, and some efficiency) to do less damage you used to be able to deal exponentially more for a small fraction of the cost over a wider range. Not to mention the time it takes to kill a group with my (admittedly terribly modded orthos prime) without using toxic lash or spores is about equal to using them.

 

I've also tried grouping things together (which took longer than shooting them down with my Soma Prime by far, hell I'd argue a basic modded Mk1-Braton could have killed quicker), using molt then applying spore and detonating it with miasma (which again cost ridiculous amounts of energy) took a long time for again less damage, range, and time efficiency than simply pressing left click while aiming in the general direction of the mob I wasted time gathering. Not to mention without regenerative molt running I would have and almost did die to draco mobs while gathering them to make the above combo actually useful. It's a whole lot of effort and yes while it can kill things these changes remind me of common core math where you draw 8 circles, 3 chickens, and 14 alligators to add up to 25 instead of adding 8+3+14=25.