Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[AutumnBramble]

Shockingly, their design direction remains completely random. Introduce Equinox, who is SUPER good at nuking! Take away Saryn's nuke! It's like a push-me-pull-you trying really hard to gallop towards two goals at once.

Edited November 6, 2015 by [DE]Danielle
Removed hidden post

[RealPandemonium]

They don't care about negative feedback, they will always be incompetent developers that don't even play their own damn game.

Despite this, they actually did pretty well with this rework.  You just need to wait for Reddit to tell you the best way to exploit the new Saryn (hint: It's been mentioned multiple times in this thread already.)

[(PSN)kira4715]

Shockingly, their design direction remains completely random. Introduce Equinox, who is SUPER good at nuking! Take away Saryn's nuke! It's like a push-me-pull-you trying really hard to gallop towards two goals at once.

Random seems like a fitting word lol and yeah equinox can nuke with insane range then bam nerf saryn's 4th and add forced synergy 

Edited November 6, 2015 by (PS4)kira4715

[Ashengrace]

RIP Saryn.

 

The synergy is trash, way too much time. effort, and energy just to cast miasma, not to mention having to be bound to certain weapons to get procs. This revisit was an absolute failure. I was really starting to like saryn, i had been using her a lot lately and was looking forward to prime sooner rather than later. Now i couldn't care less.

 

As a matter of fact, can I get a refund on the skin set i paid 200 plat for? You know, since I'll never be using saryn again, seems kinda pointless to have the skins.

[RHuckebein]

Despite this, they actually did pretty well with this rework.  You just need to wait for Reddit to tell you the best way to exploit the new Saryn (hint: It's been mentioned multiple times in this thread already.)

 

Venom saryn is neither new nor particularly good, it was just the only option for playing saryn into lategame content before.

 

Now it just happens to be the only option for playing saryn.

[Rankii]

People need to stop playing on mercury before saying the rework is better.

[Basilisk1991]

Also as a side point, do you think all flowers are gay, or just that one particular flower? Really I just need to know how you determine a flower's sexuality in the first place.

[Delensil]

Seriously, I've played her all the day, and I really liked it, she was so good. But with the last hotfix, with the spores spreading with the death of ennemies, I feel like putting spores on molt, or with Toxic lash , is now useless. We have already a lot of tools for spreading the spores in a good way but now, it's like press 1 to kill every ennemies under lvl 20 on the map. We don't even need to shoot the spores, just kill one ennemy and watch the over .

Edited November 6, 2015 by Delensil

[Misgenesis]

People need to stop playing on mercury before saying the rework is better.

People need to actually play her before saying the rework is a nerf

[Anick18]

People need to actually play her before saying the rework is a nerf

I did. The rework is a nerf.

[RealPandemonium]

Seriously, I've played her all the day, and I really liked it, she was so good. But with the last hotfix, with the spores spreading with the death of ennemies, I feel like putting spores on molt, or with Toxic lash , is now useless. We have already a lot of tools for spreading the spores in a good way but now, it's like press 1 to kill every ennemies under lvl 20 on the map. We don't even need to shoot the spores, just kill one ennemy and watch the over .

Yeah, that buff was overkill.  Will cry when the nerf comes.  

[RHuckebein]

People need to actually play her before saying the rework is a nerf

 

The rework is a nerf that doesn't matter for low level, is extreme at mid-levels, and becomes slowly less relevant as you get toward the later levels since spore isn't much worse than venom and miasma always fell off as enemy levels raised anyway.  I've tried saryn since the rework everywhere from mars through void.

 

It's a nerf.

[Misgenesis]

The rework is a nerf that doesn't matter for low level, is extreme at mid-levels, and becomes slowly less relevant as you get toward the later levels since spore isn't much worse than venom and miasma always fell off as enemy levels raised anyway.  I've tried saryn since the rework everywhere from mars through void.

 

It's a nerf.

Spore is much better now, closer to what it was on Saryns release.

 

Besides all abilities fall off in later levels?

[RHuckebein]

Spore is much better now, closer to what it was on Saryns release.

 

Besides all abilities fall off in later levels?

 

With spread on death, spore is now slightly better than venom was.

 

There are tons of abilities in warframe that don't fall off in later levels.  Tons.  The problem is when an ability is expensive and offers very little other than bad direct damage.  For example: ALL of Saryn's non-molt abilities, though the viral procs means that venom/spore holds up quite a lot longer than miasma or toxic lash.

 

Trinity, Ember, Excalibur, Mirage, Mag, Nova, and Equinox all have abilities that remain useful no matter how high the enemies' levels get.  Saryn doesn't, which is bad when she's intended to be a nuker.

[Rankii]

People need to actually play her before saying the rework is a nerf

I have. I've done the molt-venom-miasma combo. I've done a few "stealthy" eliminations to see how venom does with the on-death spread. I've taken her to everwhere I normally would except for raids because pub raids are headache-inducing nightmares, and the results are lackluster compared to the old setup. Even with the combo, I get less damage for more work and I'm honestly considering just bringing a torid on a different frame instead. Also without the stun, sticky situations are more difficult to get out of if the stray bombard gets you. Without negative duration, molt's augment isn't as effective for recovery. And without restores or rage, energy recovery isn't effective since I can't use fleeting anymore without gimping myself.

Edited November 6, 2015 by theclinton

[SanguineXIII]

Been messing with many combinations of builds against packs of 20 level 40-60 corrupted HG/bombards in the simulacrum.  Nothing about this rework has improved over what saryn did against these enemies before. The damage output from all of her skills combined is still only hitting enemies for about 1/20th or so of these units' HP. And her debuffing capability is, literally exactly the same as it has been since damage 2.0 changes.

 

Meanwhile:

 

-My Tonkor deals around 115,000 damage a shot in a massive radius with firestorm.

 

-My basic potatoed Excal does about 15,000 damage a hit by spamming exalted blade, which lasts for 4 minutes from full energy, ignores all level geometry, and clears entire rooms in less than a couple seconds.

 

-My Nova prime can send out several antimatter drops at once with  30m wide damage absorbing spheres that hit for an infinitely scaling amount of damage in a 15m radius.

 

-I'm just going to stop listing totally unstoppable walls of death capable of annihilating rooms of enemies in seconds here because what's even the point?

 

In the end, I was hoping for some actual significant redesigns of her powers, and am just disappointed with a few gimmicky synergies added to her 1-3 that are required to make miasma still end up being slightly less of a damage power than it used to be. I was really hoping for miasma to change completely.  It hasn't been useful as a nuke for years now, because no Warframe single cast direct damage powers have any impact on enemies above level 50. Going beyond that requires outside factors scaling the the damage of powers to remain effective at killing anything.

 

 

What I've been hoping for (Finally one of these things came true in the form of "spore" now spreading on enemy deaths.):

 

 

Spore automated spread on infected enemy deaths, damage ticks not removed at all when popping/spreading.  (One down! One to go!)

 

Molt gets the Frost snowglobe treatment so it stays alive for at least 5-10 seconds against high level mobs. Would help with the spore synergy in this current rework.

 

Toxic lash at this point?  This power really just needs scrapping and have something else thought up instead.  We do not melee enemies with our actual weapons beyond level 40, their TTK is far faster than any of our melee weapons' TTKs.  This power is only used in content where you're going to be killing everything without even needing it anyways.  So why not just change it out at this point?  We've totally scrapped entire powers before.   If you want us to melee high level things, redesign this power like Excal, or Valkyr, or Atlas' melee powers instead of trying to tweak its current form.

 

Miasma changed from being an instant nuke, to being a toggle like Equinox's that procs a stun on first hit and then moderate (~50%) corrosive proc chance every second in addition to low (~150) damage ticks.  Upon deactivation, the power deals burst damage based on the number of surrounding enemies with viral procs on them, something like 500*(1.0x)  where "x" is "number of viral procs".   Good for an occasional buildup and clear of clumps of light enemies, but not just spammable like it used to be.

Edited November 6, 2015 by SanguineXIII

[Captain_Vore]

I seriously could care less if Saryn was nerfed or buffed, since she was mainly changed due to the fact that her ult could clear an entire room, as well as the fact that Draco still exists after ~1 year of living the life of exp farmers, since DE believes that the best way to fix Draco is to change the frames abusing the spawn rates, not the spawn rates themselves. Seriously, if someone can find a way to farm exp without sitting in the same spot pressing one button than I would like to see it, since people are complaining about Saryn being nerfed. I've used the Saryn ult spam before, and it is disgusting. Gone it should have been a long time ago.

 

Seriously, what is happening with Saryn is what happened with the Synoid Gammacor. People complained it was OP and asked for it to be changed, U16 came and it was changed, and people complained DE nerfed it.

 

There is literally nothing that can please people of this community when it comes to balancing stuff.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Aeriusil

[Misgenesis]

 

 

Trinity, Ember, Excalibur, Mirage, Mag, Nova, and Equinox all have abilities that remain useful no matter how high the enemies' levels get.  Saryn doesn't, which is bad when she's intended to be a nuker.

Seriously now....of course CC abilities dont fall off the same way damage does.

 

And Saryn was never intended to be a nuker. Thats just the way her meta went when negative duration became possible, which wasnt intended.

 

OVERALL this isnt a nerf. Her 3 other abilities have become more viable while Miasma needs work to do damage.

 

Straight out calling this a nerf just tells me that people never cared about her 3 other abilities.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Misgenesis

[RHuckebein]

I have. I've done the molt-venom-miasma combo. I've done a few "stealthy" eliminations to see how venom does with the on-death spread. I've taken her to everwhere I normally would except for raids because pub raids are headache-inducing nightmares, and the results are lackluster compared to the old setup. Even with the combo, I get less damage for more work and I'm honestly considering just bringing a torid on a different frame instead. Also without the stun, sticky situations are more difficult to get out of if the stray bombard gets you. Without negative duration, molt's augment isn't as effective for recovery. And without restores or rage, energy recovery isn't effective since I can't use fleeting anymore without gimping myself.

 

The. new. saryn. is. S#&$.

Which, of course, stands for "Seriously Hindered In Tactical-advantage".

 

You should still use fleeting, as all of her abilities are still better with it than without it.  Put Primed Continuity over something else to mitigate the duration loss if you actually expect to use miasma to kill things and still want 'moderately decent' damage per energy out of it.

 

 

 

Seriously now....of course CC abilities dont fall off the same way damage does.

 

And Saryn was never intended to be a nuker. Thats just the way her meta went when negative duration became possible, which wasnt intendent.

 

OVERALL this isnt a nerf. Her 3 other abilities have become more viable while Miasma needs work to do damage.

 

Straight out calling this a nerf just tells me that people never cared about her 3 other abilities.

 

Saryn's CC is pitiful at best.  Her only use of abilities is to deal damage.  She is a nuke frame, she's just a bad one.  Negative Duration let her be a good one, and it gave her a role: Sweeping low-level missions.  Without it, she's just a bad Damage frame.  She brings nothing else to the table.  Removing her role when she had one is, in fact, a nerf.  Even moderate non-duration tanking builds pre-17.10 were substantially better than modern ones because miasma could at least clear out some weakened chaff enemies when you hit it as a panic button to get some breathing room.  It doesn't do that now. 

 

Spore spreading on enemy kill makes extremely low-level missions brainlessly easy again, but the only difference between that and the old venom is not having to cherry tap a couple of enemies to spread it.  In high level missions where you're going to be mass-spreading it with something like the kohm, atomos, ignis, kohmak, pyrana, et cetera it doesn't really make a difference. 

 

Molt ... spreads one or two spores around before it gets blown away, but spreading venom was easy anyway.

 

Toxic Lash is still a waste of energy and a cast animation.

 

Miasma is just plain bad, now.  Even with procs out triggering multipliers it's only marginally better than pre-17.10 miasma even if you didn't tank duration.  Practically speaking it's just plain weaker, as the main use for miasma was a panic button for when you weren't in control of a situation to begin with.

 

You guys who only played -duration miasma nuke saryn really need to stop telling those of us who used her other abilities and played with other builds what pre-17.10 saryn was like.  You have no idea what it was like.  We do.

Edited November 6, 2015 by RHuckebein

[Gelkor]

Also as a side point, do you think all flowers are gay, or just that one particular flower? Really I just need to know how you determine a flower's sexuality in the first place.

 

I'm actually pretty sure I don't want to know OP's answer to that.

[Rankii]

You should still use fleeting, as all of her abilities are still better with it than without it.  Put Primed Continuity over something else to mitigate the duration loss if you actually expect to use miasma to kill things and still want 'moderately decent' damage per energy out of it.

I'd love to, but my computer exploded when baro was offering it, so I missed out. And I'll be blunt: I'm not spending that much plat on a single mod when it'll just loop around eventually.

Miasma's just gimped, regardless of how you build it. And it's pretty obvious that that was the intent; nerfing saryn without making it look like a straight-up nerf. Contagion/Toxic Lash is really just tacked on for relevancy, since nobody who's played this game past pluto would even bother wading into melee unless they were invincible already, or had such an absurd defense that damage wasn't much of a problem (IE Valkyr and a well-built chroma)

 

Saryn's a DoT frame in a game about mass-killing, and that isn't a good thing at all. Doubly sad for me, since I have been hyped for the skin for a good while, and no logner want to even buy it since the frame it goes on is mostly cosmetic now.

[RHuckebein]

I'd love to, but my computer exploded when baro was offering it, so I missed out. And I'll be blunt: I'm not spending that much plat on a single mod when it'll just loop around eventually.

Miasma's just gimped, regardless of how you build it. And it's pretty obvious that that was the intent; nerfing saryn without making it look like a straight-up nerf. Contagion/Toxic Lash is really just tacked on for relevancy, since nobody who's played this game past pluto would even bother wading into melee unless they were invincible already, or had such an absurd defense that damage wasn't much of a problem (IE Valkyr and a well-built chroma)

 

Saryn's a DoT frame in a game about mass-killing, and that isn't a good thing at all. Doubly sad for me, since I have been hyped for the skin for a good while, and no logner want to even buy it since the frame it goes on is mostly cosmetic now.

 

You are correct about miasma being nerfed hhorrifically and toxic lash being a joke.  And about a DoT frame being bad design in general in warframe unless they went really extreme with it, which they definitely didn't.

 

It's still better to use fleeting even without continuity, though.  As long as you're killing enemies spores will spread around even if they are at a 3 second duration, and it's got a fast cast animation so you can use it while firing.  Minimum Duration saryn still has the highest DPS with miasma, it's just energy inefficient since you have to recast basically as fast as possible to get more than a few thousand damage out of it.

 

If you really want to kill stuff with miasma it's still usually better to put continuity on over intensify or streamline, but honestly that's more of an issue of how confident you are in bringing down spore targets quickly.  Continuity + Fleeting + Transient Fortitude still puts you at 50% duration, which is enough for 6 seconds of spore time.

 

It's not great but it's still the only option saryn has right now.

[Kevo149]

Ok so after playing her since the rework, she is fun but she needs some QoL changes atm. 

 

For one I think her power cost needs to be reduced since she is a set up frame now, the old power cost don't match her new play style at all. Next I think she should be able to cast more than 1 Molt maybe 3 or so This way she can set up molts at certain points and have molts waiting for oncoming enemies to have constant procs going off. Last thing, just bake regen molt into the base skill. 

[w00tm0ng3r]

Seriously now....of course CC abilities dont fall off the same way damage does.

 

And Saryn was never intended to be a nuker. Thats just the way her meta went when negative duration became possible, which wasnt intended.

 

OVERALL this isnt a nerf. Her 3 other abilities have become more viable while Miasma needs work to do damage.

 

Straight out calling this a nerf just tells me that people never cared about her 3 other abilities.

 

Saryn wasn't intended to be a burst nuker but the only way a sustained DoT frame works is if it does armor ignoring percent max health damage that can guarantee kills on enemies with millions of health. If it's flat damage it either kills low level enemies instantly which makes it burst damage or it takes far too long to kill anything else which makes it worthless. Nobody's going to care if it takes you 10 seconds to kill something they can kill in a split second with a gun.

 

The only thing new Saryn does is spread viral procs, which granted isn't a bad gimmick, but is also basically a really bad molecular prime (which is an ultimate but Nova does a lot more than just that). I ran the numbers: new Saryn with Primed Continuity, Intensify, Blind Rage, Transient Fortitude, Flow, Streamline, and a Defense mod takes 7.65 times as long and uses 3.37 times as much energy to do 12.7% more damage with her molt-spore-miasma combo than old Saryn (swap fleeting expertise in for prime continuity). That's a terrible tradeoff. 

[owendawgx]

Toxic Lash really seems to be a useless ability. Why use it to pop when you could use a primary and achieve it faster, safer, and with more damage follow up. Perhaps if it had some change to her primary/secondary damage? It just seems like it locks you into a melee focused playstyle on a frame who otherwise has no reason to prefer melee.