Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[rawr1254]

Because your examples are sort of apples and oranges.

 

Nova: Antimatter Drop requires significant effort to boost and while it has AoE it lacks Spore's potential chain hopping.  Also, M.Prime is an Ult (thus costing more energy) that requires you to Maximize duration to give it the range it needs  Not to mention it's animation time.

 

Banshee:  Sonar has a travel-time like M.Prime, requires aiming at specific points, and needs an entire augment to gain Spore's ability to propagate to other targets.  Still requires more energy.

 

Rhino: Roar is a decent buff but unless they made it recastable, you have to make sure everyone is in the area.  Also it's a #3, costing 75 energy at base, and has a much longer animation.  Also, enemy debuff ability isn't necessarily equitable to a party buff ability.  Spore not only inflicts damage, it ALSO inflicts the proc.

Also should note antimatter drop is locked in at 15m and Sonar can need to be recast if no one hits the marks while spore spreads on death and hit.

[RevenantPrime]

"I-It's n-not a nerf, it's a s-sidegrade!.."

 

By the time your DoT kills the first enemy your team will have cleared out 3 rooms ahead of you.

[rewt]

-Make Molt grant invisibility OR allow us to cast it anywhere (like Loki's Decoy)

-Remove/Change Toxic Lash(Saryn should feel like a damage caster imo, similar to Ember, not a melee frame)

-Fix her energy issues, her skills feel too expensive & it sucks to go oom, on a caster frame especially so

Edited November 6, 2015 by rewt

[Pride]

toxic lash is amazing using it on dark dagger that 6 swings a lv 90 heavy gunner turns it into 4 swings  using it on a heavy gunner after using spore turns it into 1 or 2 swings that in turn nuke the area around the heavy gunner with viral and heavy toxin damage. tomorrow i shall tinker with other melee weapons for the sake of science

[TheBrsrkr]

How dare you like Saryn now! You must be a fanboy for DE! How much does Steve pay you? [insert more condescending opinions here]

[RevenantPrime]

Agreed, Mercury has never been so easy!

[DALOS]

honestly, saryn's rework is just press 4 with extra steps.

[RevenantPrime]

Go with an all-rounder build and just deal with the fact you're not going to be the best at absolutely everything.

 

You can do fine without tweaking.

Spotted the Oberon player.

[RamboJezus]

Can anyone rationally explain (preferably with numbers) how this is a buff? All the math indicates that she's significantly weaker than where she was prior.

[inflatable_fish]

if you don't want Miasma to be a room cleaning nuke ability, you *have to* give it utility to compensate for the loss of damage.

 

for starters, removing the corrosive proc from it was a bad, bad idea.

 

going from there, it should do something *beside* dealing negligible-to-moderate damage, e.g.:

 

 - temporarily disable enemy guns Shooting Gallery style, clogging them up with corrosive goop or whatever (notice how this is still strictly worse than Radial Disarm)

 

 - panic, blind or disorient enemies

 

 - siphon health from affected enemies to teammates on tick (still strictly worse than Blessing)

 

 - drop Spores around the room, which can be then set off by enemies stepping on them or by shooting them.

 

there's plenty more solutions along those lines, but *something* needs to be done to make the ability (and by extension, the frame itself) usable in a team environment.

 

oh and replace Venom Lash altogether, it's weak, clunky and gets you killed more often than not.

[akira_him]

Again you people are ONLY looking at miasma. You have to look at all the numbers. with a viral proc with that health itd already have done 25000 dmg in a millisecond how is that a nerf?

no, a viral proc basically doubles your dps, the effective dps of new saryn using molt+spore is 4x18xx=72xx, still only have half the dps of old saryn

Edited November 6, 2015 by akira_him

[DraccoDoom]

In the last Prime Time they used 16(or more, that's the number saw) energy restore items in 20 waves. And energy orbs were drooping like candy there.

 

That's the problem with this tweak to Saryn, its's not damage that's the problem, its not even more powers you have to use for synergy, its energy. So you either have to bring Trinity on every mission or at least 5 energy items per mission to be on the save side.

 

That's a problem right there. And they need to address it in some way if they going to do something about it, or not do anything about it (they even said it in the Prime Time that they see the energy consumption as a thing)

 

I just want to know the answer to that question at this point. Because if they don't (for me at least) its RIP Saryn. I will not spend time or plat on something that I know I will not use.

Edited November 6, 2015 by DraccoDoom

[DSpite]

Lvl60 grineer is serious business now? Level 60 is pretty low..... you are getting to the point where you might consider headshoting with a 5 forma weapon instead of foot shotting everything. If anything level 60 is what end game missions should start enemy levels at.

 

Banshee and nova do her job much better. She is like oberron, not bad if loki or nyx existed, but sadly both saryn and oberron exist in a world where banshee, nova, loki, and nyx do exist.

 

A lot of people do realize spore is her best ability, being in denial and white knighting DE while calling other people dumb because they realize this though is just silly, you have to compare things relatively.

 

See, this is the broken attitude I always talk about.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemy_Level_Scaling

 

Level 60 Units are TWICE YOUR MAX LEVEL. You are having problems fighting them? Good, you should ALL have problems, because they are basically FOUR TIMES the power of level 30's due to non linear scaling.

 

This game is the only one I know of where people say stuff like "we can kill enemies three-four times out maximum level", when the other person should say "hold on a second, then what is the point of having levels, when they basically don't mean anything?"

 

[vashyoung]

 

 

oh and replace Venom Lash altogether, it's weak, clunky and gets you killed more often than not.

 

its toxic lash, and they love it so much, they cant let it go, dunno why... but they do have the data and they know that only few people use them, its a redundant skill, spore just got an update it spread when you killed the affected unit it pretty much the same function of toxic lash why not create a new skill to help saryn get a stable footing on higher level. its always gun > melee, unless you are excalibur or other frame with defensive capabilities that will carry themselves on higher stages, i dont think saryn have that skill, forcing saryn to play melee is fun for sure but they need to find a way to make her it valuable, excal got blind, rhino got iron skin, valkyr got immortality, loki got invis, even mirage got clone, and blind... now saryn needs something defensive for melee build if thats the direction they want to go

Edited November 6, 2015 by vashyoung

[XxCurtennoxX]

Saryn's rework made her a much more fun frame to play. I'm sure anyone who isn't in the "press 4 to win" mindset would agree. Sure, she might require a lot more time and energy to put out damage, but she's more fun than before.

 

The real problem is her ability to survive. She had her health DECREASED and armour increased (By 20 points i think?). Saryn has very little CC to keep her alive. The stun from miasma isn't really worth mentioning, and Molt can barely stay alive 5 seconds once you start fighting enemies over level 30. 

 

Saryn is now so reliant on getting in close to enemies that her survivability has taken a HUGE hit. It takes longer to kill enemies and when you're right in their face, that's only going to mean you losing a lot more health. Let's compare this to Ember. Ember has TONS of CC, but less defensive stats. Funnily enough, Ember is much more suited to staying alive than Saryn and is able to put out a very similar damage output. CC from Accellerant and the WoF augment keep her alive very well, but Saryn has nothing really to keep her from dying.

 

The Molt augment almost feels like it's needed now, but it's just something else taking up a mod slot in order to increase her survivability. Even then, the small heal per second it gives you isn't life saving and won't make too much difference. It feels like a small QoL for Molt, that i believe could be integrated to the ability.

 

Rebecca too has noticed the amount of danger Saryn is in now when in the enemy's face. Hopefully she can get the point across to the dev team easily, because the blocking bonus we get when Toxic Lash is active isn't all that great. Melee and the blocking system in general is still rather bad, and Saryn being almost forced into it doesn't make it any better.

 

Just a suggestion off of the top of my head for now:

Make molt either more tanky, or purely duration based.

When Molt is active/still alive, Saryn takes 50% (Affected by strength) less damage/transfers 50% of the damage taken towards her active Molt. 

Molt would need to be more than a tickle target for bullets for this to be possible, though. Maybe have molt scale off of both Strength and your defensive mods? Maybe give molt the snow-globe treatment of an invulnerability phase which adds health based off the damage it takes? Heck, if the current molt augment was integrated, this could even work as a replacement.

 

Anything to make Saryn stay alive better would be appreciated. You know something is wrong when Ember of all frames is able to survive better than Saryn.

[RevenantPrime]

Too little effort in the playstyle was part of the reason for change. As for team play, constant viral procs will always cut max health in half which long into endless, means less time an enemy is alive when guns are starting to fall off.

Or you can just bring a Rakta Cernos which will destroy the lancers / crewmen on a proc and Viral the high priority targets.

 

Doing this also has a hidden benefit: It frees up a Warframe slot allowing you to bring one that is actually not garbage.

Edited November 6, 2015 by RevenantPrime

[--Sensei--]

So...

 

Old Saryn: Enemy has 50000 health = 5 miasmas  Min energy needed 25*5 = 125

New Saryn: Enemy has 50000 health = 1 spore 1 miasma 1 molt Ok yea nerf sure Energy needed 12.5+6.25+25 = 43.75

 

Nerf no? Buff yes only you have to be smart to see it.

This is false

So ridiculously false. If you have max efficiency, then you absolutely do not have max duration. If you have max duration, you don't have max range. If you have max range, you don't have max strength. If you have max strength, you have neither max effiency nor duration.

 

Trying to max strength and duration would net you the following (just quick math using numbers from the wiki and warframe builder, might be small errors):

 

Miasma 4678 total x 4 (200% from toxin and viral procs, and counting the viral status as an additional 100%) = 18750 @ 125 energy

Spore 28x3 damage per second over 38.2 seconds = 3254  @ 31.25 energy

Molt 568 + 284 per tick for 9 ticks = 3124 @ 62.5 energy

 

Total damage over 38.2 seconds = 25128 for 218.75 energy. This also has a maximum range of ~5 meters.

 

Looks like a nerf to me.

 

 

Ah you covered it, nvm then.

 

 

Ok well lets bring a banshee and a saryn to a game and we'll see who kills more at the end. Yes Banshee hits high numbers but thats it. Its 1 kill per sonar hit. Saryn its hit a spore now fk ton of enemies be taking damage. Yea you can bring your ignis and guarantee a bunch of resonance but even then your only dealing damage to that one enemy at a time.

 

Pretty sure my Ash will nuke the map before you can even land a spore tho.

Edited November 6, 2015 by --Sensei--

[undernown]

I don't understand why there pushin melee with Saryn's "toxic slash".

The blocking bonus is almost useless cause you can't do anything else while blocking.

At some point you'll have to attack and that 125 health and 175 armor aint good enough against lvl 30 enemies, even with vitality and steel fiber.

It's like a crappy exalted blade, a damage boost to melee without range attack, auto blocking and excals 225 armour and cc blind. The abilityis only usefull for popping those spores, but why not just shoot them.

Also her ability's have short range.

Her 15 range for miasma wasn't a problem before cause of the nuke build using overextend and a S#&$ load of powerstrength to compensate and could use fleeting expertise to advantage.

Now you have to mod for all 4 stats to have a decent saryn. Without duration your dots and de-buffs will melt like snow before the sun.

Powerstrength cause her ability's are all about damage or damage bonus aside from molt's distraction.

Range cause 15 meters just sucks.

Efficiency cause you'll have to spam ability's like a maniac to get near the previous miasma nuke build.

Also why nerf her nuke? Ash has always scaled better with his armour bypassing slash proc in late game.

I never considered miasma overpowered in the 2 years i've been with warframe.

Wih all that said though, i see potentisl in her spores for debuffing with that delicious viral proc.

Go full toxin and ignore armour with your weapons, most things, aside from robots, will drop prrtty quickly.

The only safe way to use her toxic slash is with a throwing weapon in late game.

Unless you feel like you can take those rapid 300 damage hits from butchers, while some heavy sprays you down in the back.

Miasma, meh, from what i saw, by the time the viral has spread to double its damage, the enemies are likely close to death already.

I like how they try to synergise her abilities, but it's simply not quick enough inpractical terms.

By the time you're ready to use miasma to full effect, a team mate will already havy utilised the viral proc to put them out of their missery.

Her kit just lacks one crusual component other frames who nuke do have: defencive or cc ability's.

Mesa's got shattershield, Ash has invisibily, Ember has panic/knockdown and a blind-like stun, Equinox has bleeding proc that stuns, Excal has blind, etc, etc.

Her mold is just simply not enough to survive and toxic slash is far to risky.

Just compare her to Oberon, she fails with every ability in comparison. Less CC, slower damage, weaker heal, and less safety from a distance.

Oberon is great, but many still see hims as a weak frame, an all-rounder with no use insspecialised teams. That frame beats a specialises nuker now.

[YasaiTsume]

Oh synergy is there alright.

Her Molt is now 100% more useful than just a free heal and door stopper. It actually does decent damage together with Spore, even when I did not trigger Miasma on them. 

Toxic Lash still remains lack lustre as a self buff ability compared to others, but I used it with a high attack speed weapon (Surprise surprise Dual Zoren, which everyone is complaining about the skin for) and got some really weird kick when I'm just shredding Bombards with a Zoren. 

 

All she needs is some QoL, and she will be the most fun frame (for some) that DE ever released for awhile. Aside from Atlas. Ragdolling is hella fun.

 

 

PS:  "While I like the rework I also don't like it"    Posts need to stop period

[Windy_Wind]

she actually pushes out more DPS than all frame when it come to end game really, she can viral proc the entire room within a 2-3 second and reduce all enemy hp by half with only like 50 energy for both spore and molt,  and that is a lot of damage, and I meant it. Even excal exalted blade couldn't reach that level of damage within such short time though.

 

Of course, she's no longer as good as she's used to be on LOW LEVEL mission and outclassed by most frames at that stage. But when it comes to end game, she beats all the other frames in term of damage.

[akira_him]

its toxic lash, and they love it so much, they cant let it go, dunno why... but they do have the data and they know that only few people use them, its a redundant skill, spore just got an update it spread when you killed the affected unit it pretty much the same function of toxic lash why not create a new skill to help saryn get a stable footing on higher level. its always gun > melee, unless you are excalibur or other frame with defensive capabilities that will carry themselves on higher stages, i dont think saryn have that skill, forcing saryn to play melee is fun for sure but they need to find a way to make her it valuable, excal got blind, rhino got iron skin, valkyr got immortality, loki got invis, even mirage got clone, and blind... now saryn needs something defensive for melee build if thats the direction they want to go

because feed blades with poison sounds ninja

[YasaiTsume]

Toxic Lash does feel as unused as before, but I seen the damage it can do when used with a High attackspeed weapon. 

But as many as raised before me, It does not fit her new identity, not one bit. 

 

I propose to change Toxic Lash to her ultimate and it allows her to compress all DoTs on affected enemies in her near vicinty into a Burst.

 

 

 

That or we can have more buffs to Toxic Lash, ie. Sprint boost, mobility stats (Bjump etc) 

Edited November 6, 2015 by YasaiTsume

[Tuxie]

She got Nerf'd no doubt, Goodnight Saryn, rust in pieces.

[DSpite]

Sorry, but "fun" is objective, and personally, I find this iteration to be insane amounts of fun. I've stopped playing every other frame and just enjoying the Saryn spore madness. You don't need Hikou to make it work, I listed a fair count of weapons that make the build work just as well or maybe even better. "useful" doesn't put in 60% of an entire team's damage in most cases, that's usually a high bar for something being "useful."

 

I also don't understand why having four specific polarities and seven exact mods to make an "optimal build" is considered less particular than equipping your secondary as a synergy option. Believe it or not, the Hikou Prime isn't a horrible weapon by itself, neither is the Ignis, so you aren't forcing yourself to sandbag your options for Saryn. I don't think the Tonkor is so great with Spores due to it's very slow spore spreading. Just like you wouldn't use Mirage or Mesa with sniper rifles. Does that mean the character is bad, because you generally want to use weapons that have synergy (or don't have counter-synergy) with their abilities?

 

If you could do me a favor?

 

If you have a Sonicor, can you try it with your Saryn. It basically causes explosions, and ragdolls, and I'd be curious to know if it works well or gets in the way of how you use the spores on units.

[DSMatticus]

Because your examples are sort of apples and oranges.

 

Nova: Antimatter Drop requires significant effort to boost and while it has AoE it lacks Spore's potential chain hopping.  Also, M.Prime is an Ult (thus costing more energy) that requires you to Maximize duration to give it the range it needs  Not to mention it's animation time.

 

Banshee:  Sonar has a travel-time like M.Prime, requires aiming at specific points, and needs an entire augment to gain Spore's ability to propagate to other targets.  Still requires more energy.

 

Rhino: Roar is a decent buff but unless they made it recastable, you have to make sure everyone is in the area.  Also it's a #3, costing 75 energy at base, and has a much longer animation.  Also, enemy debuff ability isn't necessarily equitable to a party buff ability.  Spore not only inflicts damage, it ALSO inflicts the proc.

Firstly, complaints about energy costs in this context are kind of dumb. Every single one of these abilities (spore, mprime, sonar, and roar) will pay for itself unless you stick your thumbs up your butt and watch the timers expire. These aren't nukes or short stuns; you don't need to spam them like a madman. You cast them, kill a bunch of things, and cast them again.

 

Secondly, complaints that "you have to mod nova for duration" and "banshee needs an augment" are just... really? The new Saryn wants literally everything. Her CC is terrible, so she wants to be tanky. Strength benefits regen molt. Efficiency lets you use miasma as emergency CC. Range makes your spore-chaining crazier. You need a touch of duration. Regen molt is a big part of your survivability. Rage is still an amazing combo. Saryn is one of the mod-hungriest frames in the game right now. Modding Nova or Banshee is way easier.

 

Thirdly, complaints about propagation times... seriously, what are you doing? MPrime covers a huge area (and fairly quickly, to be frank), and it will mark enemies long before you actually see them. You are never going to have to "wait" for MPrime to coat enemies to get your damage bonus unless you are totally screwing up. Sonar has an incredibly fast propagation time. This aspect seriously isn't worth mentioning.

 

Fourth, roar + stretch covers as large an area as spores + stretch + overextend. You know that thing where you coat the entire map in spores in the blink of an eye? Rhino has that range for one less mod than you. If teammates are benefitting from your viral procs, then odds are good they are also close enough to benefit from rhino's roar.

 

These are all very weak complaints. Yes, these abilities are all different from Saryn's; usually in ways that makes them better. If I wanted big damage, I'd go Banshee and enjoy the extra CC. If I was okay with "only" a 2x multiplier, I'd go Rhino or Nova - and enjoy the extra crowd control from stomp/MPrime's slow that Saryn really only has miasma for.