Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[RealPandemonium]

Have you ever considered that some people like to play in easy mode just because they don't want to try hard for a change?

 

That's what I'm trying to tell you, I play Warframe for fun and to have a break from some other (very) competitive games. That doesn't mean I don't like a challenge (solo-ing Trin on 90 minute T4S is just as fun for me), but it's nice to have options.

 

For me the old Miasma was able to change the grind in Warframe by rapidly dispatching the mind clogging masses and leaving the heavies behind to engage in a more challenging way. It's about having fun and having options. Feel free to hate on the old Saryn, I don't mind, but what's wrong with some acceptance that some people liked her that way (not to mention she was hardly ever used by the masses)? 

 

That's also why I said I don't get people like you. Apparently you think that every Warframe in game should be on par with your level of challenge/fun/playstyles to a point where other opinions no longer matter ... just because you think they are doing it wrong.

 

That said, I'm loving the new changes on Saryn so far. :-)  

Judging by this I guess DE's strategy of leaving OP options in the game untouched is a good one, except for the part where people whine that other options are not as OP.  

 

Glad that you enjoy the new design, though (barring the pointless health nerf.)

Edited November 10, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[bubbabenali]

Have you ever considered that some people like to play in easy mode just because they don't want to try hard for a change?

Well if you want easy mode it's Loki you need.

As it seems even the saltiest nerf force member has no problem with his god of Warframe status. Because it's "balanced" to do missions without the ai and getting augments to make other frames obsolete.

He will never be nerfed.

[Skadedyr]

Well if you want easy mode it's Loki you need.

As it seems even the saltiest nerf force member has no problem with his god of Warframe status. Because it's "balanced" to do missions without the ai and getting augments to make other frames obsolete.

He will never be nerfed.

 

Funnily enough I hardly play Loki anymore because I find him to much easy mode (especially after maxing him out). :-P

 

I think most people don't complain about him because (1) you literally don't see him running around stealing your kills and (2) when it comes to raw damage output he's dependant on his weapons, not his skills. Complaints about OP-ness almost always seems to turn around high DPS or nuke abilities, both something Loki lacks in the traditional way.

 

He's a lot of fun to play though and I definitely get why he has such a loyal fanbase. 

Judging by this I guess DE's strategy of leaving OP options in the game untouched is a good one, except for the part where people whine that other options are not as OP.  

 

Glad that you enjoy the new design, though (barring the pointless health nerf.)

 

I think people will always whine no matter what you do (such is the burden of DE). In a way it's a good sign, it means they care about their game. ^^

[Djego27]

The Fx changes are good.

 

Double duration on molt is quite pointless given the main problem is that it dies to quick at higher levels what vastly limits the defensive aspect and also reduces it's use for damage, because you can't wait till more units are in range before you pop it.

 

Toxic Lash, the 2 energy are to little on it's own. The main problem remains it is just for melee, while we have a ton of better melee frames(both surviability as well as DPS) in the game, while the toxic proc and added toxic damage on ranged weapons could make the frame a lot more flexible(becaue a magnetic/toxin braton prime is only really that useful against a single faction) when it comes to weapon modding and overall weapon choice and providing a alternative to misasma spam for dps. All the changes want to make misama use more rewarding and complex however they simply fall short to change saryn as a concept since everything else is just build to much around supporting misama, with to little utility and high level potential on it's own to acutally consider the frame playable and useful without misama spam.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Djego27

[Skadedyr]

Having tested the new changes a bit here are my findings;

 

- as said above, double duration on Molt feels pointless (even in lower level missions) although it would be viable if it also affected Regenative Molt.

 

- the addition of the 2 energy on spore pop with Toxic Lash feels kinda good when you first start out, however after some play testing it doesn't nearly compensate for the energy loss on any mod build that compliments her abilities. Instead to make it work well you have to re-mod her in ways which really hurt her abilities (I found she could only keep a healthy energy pool if you went for an efficiency build, which hurts duration a lot and with that ALL of her abilities). 

 

- Survivability is still a major issue. Her new Toxic Lash ability hints at usefulness with a Life Strike weapon, but I found that even with said efficiency build it pretty much limits your use of casting abilities even further (which already have to be cast more due to the negative duration that comes with it).

 

All of this was tested on Draco runs, 4 rounds. 

 

Just a suggestion I haven't heard much before; instead of buffing her survivability directly DE could also balance it out by buffing her crowd control abilities. Even a tiny hint of "slow" on her Spores or a stagger when infected by them could make a considerable impact on her survivability.  

Edited November 10, 2015 by Skadedyr

[Rhaenxys]

The problem is, not only toxic lash requires to be in melee range but even miasma force the user to be in a dangerous area, i dont know why DE is so afraid of raising her health and armor stats, she need that change, CC is not always an option if you are knocked down or under any other CC effect.

 

In my opinion the perfect fix for her survivability would be:

 

- 150 base health

 

- 225 armor

 

- Toxic lash damage reduction applied without blocking.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Rhaenxys

[(XBOX)XETA3]

Saryn Revisited

With this update comes a lot of exciting changes to Saryn’s abilities, giving her more synergy between each power and putting more emphasis on her ability to debuff enemies with Viral and Toxin procs. As always we will continue to monitor Saryn after the launch of this rework.

Please post your feedback in our megathread here:

• Spore Revisions
  • Saryn’s Venom Ability has been renamed to Spore.
  • Guaranteed Viral proc on explosion of spores.
  • If current host has a toxin Proc (i.e from Contagion or any other source), it will transfer that proc too.
  • Damage ticks will be done every second, duration will affect how long the debuff is up.
  • Increase base damage of the ability.
• Molt Revisions
  • Spore can be cast on Molt, infects units which attack Molt.
  • Miasma cast in range of Molt will feed into Molt, creating more damage on explosion.
  • All Spores on Molt Clones will detonate and spread on the clone’s death.
• Toxic Lash Revisions
  • Saryn’s Contagion Ability has been renamed to Toxic Lash.
  • Slightly increased the damage and duration of Toxic Lash.
  • Guaranteed Toxin proc on melee hit.
  • Detonates a Venom spore if the target has one.
  • Damage output scales based on a percent of total damage of melee weapon with Mods, not base.
  • While Toxic Lash is active, there is a bonus damage reduction while blocking. This damage reduction is capped at 90%.
• Miasma Revisions
  • Damage ticks will be done every second, Duration will affect how long the debuff is up.
  • 100% more damage if target is affected by a Viral proc (Venom guarantees a Viral proc when exploded).
  • 100% more damage if target is affected by a Toxin proc (Contagion guarantees a Toxin proc on impact).
  • Enemies hit by Miasma when under the effects of Miasma will have the duration timer reset.
  • Increase base damage overall.
• General Revisions
  • Saryn now has a passive 25% increased Status effect duration.
  • Updated some visual FX on Saryn’s abilities.
  • Saryn can now cast Spore and Toxic Lash while moving.
  • Saryn’s base Armor is now 175.
  • Saryn’s base Health is now 125.
  • Saryn’s maximum Energy is now 150.

Next Steps:

The first round of tweaks are coming to Saryn in the next hotfix pending testing.

1) Instead of just disappearing on enemy death, Saryn’s Spores will now detonate at a reduced spread distance if the target dies. You may have found yourself in the scenario where you Spore'd an enemy, didn't pop the spores, killed said enemy, only to see his Spores die with him instead of infecting nearby enemies.

2) Toxic Lash can now proc multiple times.

As always - things are subject to change. Keep an eye out for 17.10.1 in which the first round of tweaks will appear.

The issue with DoT is that it is far too inconvenient at late to end game. Saryn before the revist only need minor adjustments. Many players used the 4th as a panic button when there weapons were reloading / being pinned in a corner / clearing a group quickly to revive teammates / when weapon damage starts falling off at late game. With a duration fixed DoT that moment of needing to clear large groups very quickly is no longer applicable, because you not only have to waste far more energy to cast multiple abilities, you then have to wait for the dot procs to actually kill the affected targets. Try waiting 8 seconds with a group of lvl 120 bombards amd heavy gunners shooting at you. I bet that you get put down before activating spores, molt and then miasma. Then waiting for the ticks to kill your targets. It is far more effevtive to run with a tigris/ tonkor/ boltor prime/ quanta vandle etc etc and corrosive projection.

SO now you waste more energy and do massively less dps than the pre reworked saryn.

Not to mention the complete overhaul of my modding for her, dot if it is not like the pre vist and will be based on positive duration rather than negative duration, you will have to build for higher duration for spore and molt, you will also have to build for range so that the spore explosion radius is increased, you also have to build for power to maintain decent dps with the dot procs, and of course efficency because you will now have to use at least 1 other ability before miasma for it to become viable. Corrupted mods will be almost unusable because of the 4 way build.

When this update hits the consol I will be sure to number crunch the hell out of the reworked saryn and compare it to my current builds.

Edited November 10, 2015 by (XB1)XETA3

[Weltraumfred]

The issue with DoT is that it is far too inconvenient at late to end game. Saryn before the revist only need minor adjustments. Many players used the 4 as a panic button when there weapons were reloding / being pinned in a corner / clearing a group quickly to revive teammates / when weapon damage starts falling off at late game. With a duration fixed DoT that moment of needing to clear large groups very quickly is no longer applicable, because you not only have to waste far more energy to cast multiple abilities, you then have to wait for the dot procs to actually kill the affected targets. Try waiting 8 seconds with a group of lvl 120 bombards amd heavy gunners shooting at you. I bet that you get put down before activating spores, molt and then miasma. Then waiting for the ticks to kill your targets. It is faaaar more effevtive to run with a tigris/ tonkor/ boltor prime/ quanta vandle etc etc and corrosive projection.

That's why I think that Saryn should have some decent debuffs on her DoT effects. Slow on the Molt-explosion, 100% Corrosive procs on every tick and longer stun on Miasma. 

 

Also +25 base health and +75 Armor. So that you actually survive while your DoT melts the enemy.

[Rankii]

The issue with DoT is that it is far too inconvenient at late to end game. Saryn before the revist only need minor adjustments. Many players used the 4th as a panic button when there weapons were reloading / being pinned in a corner / clearing a group quickly to revive teammates / when weapon damage starts falling off at late game. With a duration fixed DoT that moment of needing to clear large groups very quickly is no longer applicable, because you not only have to waste far more energy to cast multiple abilities, you then have to wait for the dot procs to actually kill the affected targets. Try waiting 8 seconds with a group of lvl 120 bombards amd heavy gunners shooting at you. I bet that you get put down before activating spores, molt and then miasma. Then waiting for the ticks to kill your targets. It is far more effevtive to run with a tigris/ tonkor/ boltor prime/ quanta vandle etc etc and corrosive projection.

SO now you waste more energy and do massively less dps than the pre reworked saryn. When this update hits the consol I will be sure to number crunch the hell out of the reworked saryn and compare it to my current builds.

If you browse the feedback forums, a few people have. General concensus is that, while possible, it's putting saryn at a disadvantage to get to her old power level by sacrificing survivability. And survivability is a must in any late-game content.

[_Raiklar_]

Just a side note. You do realize that Saryn's theme is Toxin/Viral. So why of all elements would you want to add Corrosive to any of her abilities?

[Djego27]

 

Just a suggestion I haven't heard much before; instead of buffing her survivability directly DE could also balance it out by buffing her crowd control abilities. Even a tiny hint of "slow" on her Spores or a stagger when infected by them could make a considerable impact on her survivability.  

 

Adding a slow to targets with spores on them or a 2-4s stun if they get hit by the spores the first time was actually suggested quite a lot in the thread here. I did suggested this as well, because I think that would, combined with giving molt a function like snow globe or remove the HP compleetly a sufficent amount of CC and surviability outside of misama spam to keep the frame alive at higher levels. Adding toxic lesh to all weapons, base the  toxic proc strength on all the toxic damage on the weapon + the one added by the ability instead of the base damage of the weapon and you would have a fairly good scalable dps source on most weapons and a quite impressive buff to status weapons on her(that would produce high damage toxic procs, with the option to add corrosive and a CC element like fire at the same time).

 

In the end you would have something similar to Ember:

 

- Spores are great for the team, acting as double damage buff with some form of CC to keep you alive

- Molt would scale to a point where you can pop it if you think it is the most benifical, something that gives you the time to get to cover or do a revive at high levels

- Toxic Lesh as general damage source is a lot cheaper to keep up at high levels and better scalable as dps source the miasma(that will fall off as useful damage at some point around L80 form my experience)

- Miasma as nuke with some added CC, however with CC and scaling damage build into the other skills not as mandatory as it was before the rework and unfortunately still is

Edited November 10, 2015 by Djego27

[Weltraumfred]

Just a side note. You do realize that Saryn's theme is Toxin/Viral. So why of all elements would you want to add Corrosive to any of her abilities?

 

Miasma did corrosive damage before the rework. It just didn't proc as far as I know.

[(XBOX)XETA3]

Seems about right. Currently I run max vitality, max fleeting expertise and streamline for 175% efficiency. Max transient fortitude + intensify + rank 2 blindrage for 212% power strength. Max prime flow and max quickthinking to stop the insta kill hits. Aura is rejuvenation and exilus slot is rush.

So thats

12% duration to geta all procs hitting very quickly for massive dps

175% efficiency for miasma.

Range is a standard of 100%

Powere strength of 212% for a hard hitting miasma.

So she has high health, cant be 1 shot, she hits like a freight train for moderate distance, maxed efficiency for those enimies exceeding lvl 100 that take 2 or mor miasmas. Run with a 7 former tonkor. 6 former brakk and a 4 former scindo prime.

I doubt that the new saryn can come close to such a bulid, even with the same weapon set up.

[(XBOX)XETA3]

Because viral affects health and so does toxin. Damage to health is affected by a enemys armour rating. Corrosive projection lowers the armour rating, combine lower armour + a viral and toxin proc, your weapons will kill the enimies far faster than just viaral and toxic.

[Rankii]

Just a side note. You do realize that Saryn's theme is Toxin/Viral. So why of all elements would you want to add Corrosive to any of her abilities?

There are corrosive poisons, m8.

[DraccoDoom]

Wow the new energy back mechanic is such a joke fall on your face synergy idea. I tested it in simulacrum and I thought that it may be good, BUT NO, the moment brought it back to real game with 4 players and enemies running how ever they want it became obvious how bad it was , and its bad. I even didn't use any other power (like Miasma or Molt) to see how much energy I can get.

 

How about you scrub this "synergy" idea out of your head for a moment and try to do something that actually viable in real game with 3 other ppl and not in simulacrum setting solo.

 

Or you know what? just stop, you gave it your all and Fail, just let Saryn go, let her faze in to Limbo realm. Its just bad to look at what your doing now.

[Skadedyr]

[snip]

 

Or you know what? just stop, you gave it your all and Fail, just let Saryn go, let her faze in to Limbo realm. Its just bad to look at what your doing now.

 

That's a bit harsh to say as long as DE is still actively working on her (basically she's in open beta right now).

 

And you're already giving up after just a week of playtesting ...?

[Rankii]

That's a bit harsh to say as long as DE is still actively working on her (basically she's in open beta right now).

 

And you're already giving up after just a week of playtesting ...?

To be fair, it really does feel like they're either half listening or not testing things before relasing them.

 

"Saryn's molt is gone too quick!"

And they double the duration instead of one of the suggestions to have it actually last longer.

"Saryn's kit chugs energy!"

2 energy back per spore! Too bad we can't use fleeting without gimping ourselves.

 

I don't know if someone dressed as saryn pissed in their cherrios, but they seem dead-set on making her worse and worse for no reason other than spite.

[(XBOX)XETA3]

Miasma should deal a set ammount of damage on the official cast, and then leave a lingering cloud that procs toxin damage equivalent to a percentage of the enemys armour value that scales with power strength. Give the cloud 10% chance to proc a 3 second stun for every second the enemy remains inside the clouds range.

The clouds lingering duration should be scaled to duration mods.

Enemy armour percentage to toxin damage should scale with power strength.

Enemies with less armour take less damage, while those with high armour take significantly more due to the armour to damage ratio.

Saryn is designed as a DoT frame, and this ability would be effective at every level on any tier. Her spores would complement this version of miasma as her spores would do better against lower armored targets like corpus. But great against greneeir.

Mag is currently the only viable character with a scaling aoe ability that actually works. We need more of this.

Mags shield polarise uses enemy shields against them. Fantastic against corpus, far less effective against other factions.

Saryn with this miasma would be fantastic against greneeir and ancients because like shield polarise it would use thier armour against them.

Embers world on fire is great against infected, minus the ancients.

For void, a mag, this saryn and ember would be incredibly valuable. Warframe needs more scaling to enemy abilities.

Just like mag who functions on a simple principle of more shields = more damage, less shields = less damage. Saryn too should work on the same principles. More armour = more damage, less armour = less damage. It is a self balancing mechanic that also gives a far more synergistic design, especially to other frames and weapons.

Edited November 10, 2015 by (XB1)XETA3

[bubbabenali]

Well whatever she is now nuke everything slower with Spore now instead of Miasma.

But where are the awesome looking weapons from her artwork?

Will we get a new machete + new stance?

[mcryseria]

 

DE still hasn't figure it out yet. They're buffing/fixing the wrong things about Molt. It really should be invulnerable for a few seconds and scale depending on the amount of damage it took while invulnerable (aka snow globe treatment). Her survivability is still an issue and they still need to address her power costs. Her power ranges also need a little tweaking to help with her survivability.

 

Just a side note. You do realize that Saryn's theme is Toxin/Viral. So why of all elements would you want to add Corrosive to any of her abilities?

 

Miasma's original description says that it corrodes enemy armor so it would make sense that it would proc corrosive. Giving it a -25% armor effect on enemies would really help her scale on higher level missions.

[CelticMoss]

Just a side note. You do realize that Saryn's theme is Toxin/Viral. So why of all elements would you want to add Corrosive to any of her abilities?

Cause plants also use corrosive properties and saryn used to have corrosive on her ult

[czdj117]

It seems to me that they want them to, we played other games, feedback and communication with us is not interested in what is happening with the modification Saryn is funny

[mcryseria]

DE likes to make things complicated when all they actually need to do are:

-Revert EHP nerf

-Improved amor

-Give Molt the snow globe treatment.

-Reduce overall power cost.

-Give Toxic Lash an active damage reduction even when not blocking/parrying.

-Give Miasma a 100% corrosive proc w/c is non stackable, -25% enemy armor and casting Miasma would refresh the proc debuff while doing a new set of DoT.

-Improved power range.

Seriously they can just do all this and paste this in the patch notes and everything would be okay.

Edited November 11, 2015 by (PS4)IIIDevoidIII
Removed Removed Post

[Rankii]

DE likes to make things complicated when all they actually need to do are:

-Revert EHP nerf

-Improved amor

-Give Molt the snow globe treatment.

-Reduce overall power cost.

-Give Toxic Lash an active damage reduction even when not blocking/parrying.

-Give Miasma a 100% corrosive proc w/c is non stackable, -25% enemy armor and casting Miasma would refresh the proc debuff while doing a new set of DoT.

-Improved power range.

 

Seriously they can just do all this and paste this in the patch notes and everything would be okay.

I'd say have venom and miasma do ticks based off of precentages instead of damage. That way the S#&$ters get what they want, which is saryn not being able to "kill steal", while people that actually played saryn still get a frame that can not be completely terrible all of the time.