Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[DSMatticus]

My advice; Don't build on that max duration. I have 95% duration 184% p.str and 160% p.eff and 145% range with a max vit and steelfiber for survival.

Your Miasma:

~3000 damage per second (counts time setting up molt and spores, assumes viral procs and toxin procs on all enemies, includes "halved enemy HP" bonus).

~200 damage per energy.

 

 

Old miasma (145% range, 175% efficiency build):

~3500 damage per second.

~333 damage per energy.

Build needs far less mods than your build, which can be used for even more survivability.

This build's combat strategy opens with miasma, which is CC, which makes it much less fragile in practice.

 

Summary:

In the same amount of time, you burned through more energy to do less damage. You also took more damage doing it, most likely. You also have less survivability mods (and less base survivability) than old Saryn did, so that damage actually matters more.

 

Your build is about ideal for new Saryn, and I'm pretty sure it's already what everyone's playing. It's basically build I've tried to make work. But your strategy is all wrong. Spores + concealed explosives is the way to go, just so you can spread viral everywhere with exponential sporesplosions. Then either switch to a real weapon and finish them off or let your teammates do it. Miasma is too much work for too few results to be worth it over a gun; exactly like it was for old Saryn in late endless, except now it falls off sooner and is harder to sustain without EV-spam/pizza-spam.

 

But this build/strategy doesn't even get you decent performance on Draco, let alone on anything actually difficult.

 

And using molt to revive people? Wut? I can drop a molt and have enemies pick me over the molt a few feet away. If they did pick the molt past the 20+ mark, it would explode instantly and then they'd shoot me anyway. Molt only reliably keeps you safe if you were safe to begin with. It's just too bad at reliably drawing aggro and absolutely abysmal at surviving when it does manage to draw aggro.

[DelialFallen]

Your Miasma:

~3000 damage per second (counts time setting up molt and spores, assumes viral procs and toxin procs on all enemies, includes "halved enemy HP" bonus).

~200 damage per energy.

 

 

Old miasma (145% range, 175% efficiency build):

~3500 damage per second.

~333 damage per energy.

Build needs far less mods than your build, which can be used for even more survivability.

This build's combat strategy opens with miasma, which is CC, which makes it much less fragile in practice.

 

Summary:

In the same amount of time, you burned through more energy to do less damage. You also took more damage doing it, most likely. You also have less survivability mods (and less base survivability) than old Saryn did, so that damage actually matters more.

 

-snip-

 

Excuse me for being blunt, but wasn't it the entire point of this revision to do away with old Miasma and diversify her playstyle?

 

As for Saryn's role in deep orchestrated group content (40 waves+, 1hour+), I'm not convinced it will ever be a thing again.  It used to be only a select few frames were able to manage it with excellent group and loadout synergy, and has perhaps become a bit too common for DE's liking (I'm sure the AFK botters whose videos had become commonplace for a while are to blame).  That's my impression, at any rate (tinfoil notwithstanding).

 

Perhaps Saryn (Like Mag, like Mesa) was simply singled out -- justified or not -- to be brought to her present state.

 

I'm not convinced the old, quick numbers or the long stun from Miasma will ever return.  As such, I'm sure we could discuss how to better iron out her toolkit to deal with her durability (either with CC, or with an adjustment of stats).  In my opinion, Molt can provide effective distraction at all levels if they somehow buff its durability.  Some have suggested a 3-4 seconds invulnerability, so that it can be useful at all levels of play.

[Thaumatos]

I still don't get why you people think this wasn't supposed to be a nerf.  Newsflash:  Miasma was nerfed!

 

Is Saryn still playable?  Yes.

Is Saryn still capable of high-end content? Yes.

Can you deal 13k damage in less than 1 second?  No.

 

Why don't you try learning how to play her like many of the individuals here did.  The only thing I don't see anymore in public games are the Saryns on Draco insta-killing everything for 6 rounds......too bad?

[akira_him]

I still don't get why you people think this wasn't supposed to be a nerf. Newsflash: Miasma was nerfed!

Is Saryn still playable? Yes.

Is Saryn still capable of high-end content? Yes.

Can you deal 13k damage in less than 1 second? No.

Why don't you try learning how to play her like many of the individuals here did. The only thing I don't see anymore in public games are the Saryns on Draco insta-killing everything for 6 rounds......too bad?

because she now getting instakilled in Draco? I mean, even in Draco?

[DelialFallen]

because she now getting instakilled in Draco? I mean, even in Draco?

 

Let's not exaggerate.  Sure, if you stand perfectly still, don't Parkour or try to avoid enemies, you're likely to get killed on Draco.  I've not personalty had any issues surviving there post-rework, and without Rgenerative Molt equipped.

[akira_him]

Let's not exaggerate. Sure, if you stand perfectly still, don't Parkour or try to avoid enemies, you're likely to get killed on Draco. I've not personalty had any issues surviving there post-rework, and without Rgenerative Molt equipped.

I guess you never used toxic lash, either I don't use it now so currently I don't have surviving Draco except facing Scorch, but I guess it is bugged because it randomly instakill everything.

anyway, try using toxic lash as intended in full melee to use that block bonus and see how it works

if you think toxic lash combine with hp nerf support that kind of play style, than fine, maybe I am all wrong about saryn revisit is a failure

Edited November 15, 2015 by akira_him

[DSMatticus]

Excuse me for being blunt, but wasn't it the entire point of this revision to do away with old Miasma and diversify her playstyle?

 

As for Saryn's role in deep orchestrated group content (40 waves+, 1hour+), I'm not convinced it will ever be a thing again.  It used to be only a select few frames were able to manage it with excellent group and loadout synergy, and has perhaps become a bit too common for DE's liking (I'm sure the AFK botters whose videos had become commonplace for a while are to blame).  That's my impression, at any rate (tinfoil notwithstanding).

 

The poster I'm responding to is specifically talking about their ability to melt face through power damage. Pointing out that new Saryn's power damage is worse than old Saryn's is completely appropriate, especially when you remember that for old Saryn miasma was little more than an expensive short range stun by around the 40 minute mark.

 

I've talked at length about Saryn's new role as damage multiplier a la spore procs and why that isn't enough to carry her. I don't think we really disagree on anything, I'm just tired of people talking about "but I miasma'd things and they died!" and had to point out the obvious.

 

 

I still don't get why you people think this wasn't supposed to be a nerf.  Newsflash:  Miasma was nerfed!

 

Is Saryn still playable?  Yes.

Is Saryn still capable of high-end content? Yes.

Can you deal 13k damage in less than 1 second?  No.

 

Why don't you try learning how to play her like many of the individuals here did.  The only thing I don't see anymore in public games are the Saryns on Draco insta-killing everything for 6 rounds......too bad?

 

Yeah, I've "mastered" new Saryn. It's not hard. You put spores on an enemy. You let loose with a quick burst of exploding throwing stars, viral proccing the entire map. You switch to a primary and you shoot everything in the face with a gun. If you're in a pinch, miasma for fairly unreliable emergency CC with a range somewhere between "abysmal" and "barely adequate."

 

That is the ideal way to play new Saryn. The problem is, here's my roar Rhino:

 

Tap 3, giving myself and every ally within "nearly the entire map" +90% damage (viral proc is effectively +100%). Shoot everything in the face with a gun. If I absolutely need emergency CC, stomp is very reliable CC with a range of "nearly the entire map."

 

Notice how my roar Rhino does the same damage multiplication trick Saryn does (technically it's +90% instead of +100%, but close enough) and doesn't need to worry about popping spores or spreading procs and only has to worry about getting his buff back up once every 40-50 seconds as opposed to every new wave of enemies?

[DelialFallen]

I guess you never used toxic lash, either I don't use it now so currently I don't have surviving Draco except facing Scorch, but I guess it is bugged because it randomly instakill everything.

anyway, try using toxic lash as intended in full melee to use that block bonus and see how it works

if you think toxic lash support combine with hp nerf support that kind of play style, than fine, maybe I am all wrong about saryn revisit is a failure

 

Then we are agreed Saryn could use a buff to her durability.  Good.

[Vardog]

That is the ideal way to play new Saryn. The problem is, here's my roar Rhino:

 

Tap 3, giving myself and every ally within "nearly the entire map" +90% damage (viral proc is effectively +100%). Shoot everything in the face with a gun. If I absolutely need emergency CC, stomp is very reliable CC with a range of "nearly the entire map."

 

Notice how my roar Rhino does the same damage multiplication trick Saryn does (technically it's +90% instead of +100%, but close enough) and doesn't need to worry about popping spores or spreading procs and only has to worry about getting his buff back up once every 40-50 seconds as opposed to every new wave of enemies?

 

 

Or bring a Nova and let he press 4 which will effectively put a Viral proc on the entire map, slow every enemy to a near to stop and turn them into a mini-Miasma deathbomb.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

Saryn doesn't excell at anything, for anything she does you'll find 3 other Frames that do it better. She's exactly at the same spot she was before the rework, a squishy, mid-tier Frame with barely any CC or Utility that nobody wants to see in their high level party.

 

 

Saying that you can do x minutes or x waves in T4 means nothing, pre-rework Saryn was also capable of those things and that didn't make her sought-after in parties. People don't like Saryn because she's a semi-melee Frame with close to none survivability, flat-based damage abilities that fall off mid game and no significant (compared to other Frames) form of CC/Utility to be a valuable party member.

This rework changed nothing for Saryn and if you think it did then I'm afraid I can't take you seriously.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Vardog

[DSMatticus]

Well, it did change one thing: she was a speedfarm frame, capable of the fastest clearing in the game so long as her ult damage held up. You did see people recruiting Saryn for Draco and T3D and the like, because for Draco faster clear means more spawns means more affinity and for T3D faster clear means faster waves means faster rewards. She had a niche. A niche lots of people hate (existing solely to speed up the grind, almost like a Nekros).

 

She is certainly not a speedfarm frame anymore, and she isn't even the bronze medal of damage multiplication, leaving her... with nothing.

[Vardog]

Well, it did change one thing: she was a speedfarm frame, capable of the fastest clearing in the game so long as her ult damage held up. You did see people recruiting Saryn for Draco and T3D and the like, because for Draco faster clear means more spawns means more affinity and for T3D faster clear means faster waves means faster rewards. She had a niche. A niche lots of people hate (existing solely to speed up the grind, almost like a Nekros).

 

She is certainly not a speedfarm frame anymore, and she isn't even the bronze medal of damage multiplication, leaving her... with nothing.

 

That I can agree with, she was a low/mid-tier goddess, now she's not even good at that. I don't understand why DE is so afraid to make Saryn a good, useful Frame, it wouldn't even take that much to make Saryn a valued pick in parties and there's many ways to go about it. Most of Saryn's problems stem from her lack of survivability which could be fixed through various means like: giving Saryn more Crowd Control, 'fixing' Molt, boosting her damage (kill your enemy before it kills you) or adding a straight up Damage Reduction to her Toxic Lash that would work only with melee weapons (a la Valkyr's Hysteria).

 

There's a bunch of ways to make Saryn shine and this thread is full of sound ideas but for some unknown reason DE completely ignores the community and comes up with these forced, gimmicky solutions that don't adress any of Saryn's problems.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Vardog

[arsyadpower]

please only revert the Miasma, thats all i want, other skill is awesomely reworked

[akira_him]

That I can agree with, she was a low/mid-tier goddess, now she's not even good at that. I don't understand why DE is so afraid to make Saryn a good, useful Frame, it wouldn't even take that much to make Saryn a valued pick in parties and there's many ways to go about it. Most of Saryn's problems stem from her lack of survivability which could be fixed through various means like: giving Saryn more Crowd Control, 'fixing' Molt, boosting her damage (kill your enemy before it kills you) or adding a straight up Damage Reduction to her Toxic Lash that would work only with melee weapons (a la Valkyr's Hysteria).

There's a bunch of ways to make Saryn shine and this thread is full of sound ideas but for some unknown reason DE completely ignores the community and comes up with these forced, gimmicky solutions that don't adress any of Saryn's problems.

especially when those suggested buff are the same being suggested since damage 2.0 released, I don't understand what they are thinking

[Azamagon]

To me, it seems like DE wants Saryn to be a close/midrange elusive debuffer.

 

They have almost nailed down the debuffer part. But the elusive part is highly missing, imo.

 

My suggestions are these:

 

-- Spores

* If I'd suggest anything else for Spores, it would be to make it so enemies are either slowed down a tiny bit (15%?) if they are affected by at least one spore (shouldn't slow down more if more spores are active) or that enemies are mini-staggered (as in, the shorter melee stagger, not the long impact stagger) when spores are popped. If neither of those things happen, it doesn't matter, as Spores is already a great power right now.

 

-- Molt

* Make it not only cleanse Saryn off debuffs, but also copy her buffs! All buffs that increase power strength or damage (like Roar, Provoke etc) should affect the Molt's explosion damage.

* Grant Saryn a brief amount of invisibility upon casting Molt, say, up to a max of 4 seconds (affected by Power Duration). This would emphasize her elusiveness greatly, as well as give her more potency at close range (due to invis melee multiplier).

* Recasting Molt shouldn't immediately recast a new Molt, it should both detonate the current Molt as well as remove Saryn's invisibility, whatever is remaining. This is both to give Molt a better detonation potential without the need to place a new Molt AND to make sure she can't be in invsibility at all times.

* Maybe give the Molt SLIGHTLY better durability, say 2 seconds of the Snow Globe treatment?

* Maybe also make the explosion damage bypass the environment and NOT to diminish with distance?

* Don't have Molt explode when Miasma is cast near it. Instead, have the Molt gain some of Miasma's damage "dealt" to Molt (it doesn't hurt the Molt, it just empowers Molt), to increase Molt's explosion damage instead! (This change is important for the suggestion I have for Miasma)

 

-- Toxic Lash

First a minor complaint: This is still a boring ability that is 100% reliant on a melee weapon. Having a power being so niched is Rift Surge-levels of bad design. No other power (besides Rift Surge) requires a specifc weapon or other abilities to get any use out of the ability. Sure, some abilities promote useage of certain weaponry (like Speed and Warcry boosting melee), but they have other non-niched uses on them too (movement speed and armorbuff+enemy slow, respectively). This power could either be simply improved, or redesigned a bit so it actually FEELS interesting.

Simply improving it:

* Make the damage resistance a plain protection bonus so it has a use outside of melee useage. This still keeps the ability rather boring though, so I prefer the following - Redesigning it to make it feel interesting:

* No longer improves blocking defenses

* Still buffs your melee weapon with the toxic bonuses (same effects and all; Spore bursting with energy replenishment etc)

* Now for the interesting part: Saryn also summons an energy whip/vine/snake (up to DE what it would look like ofc), which swirls around Saryn. Whenever an enemy gets close to Saryn, this energy whip will lash out at it, lashing at a rate of, say, 1 strike per second (rate unaffected by mods, and only strikes one enemy per lash). This lash has X base damage, but does the same thing as the melee weapon does (toxic proc, guranteed to pop spores which grant energy, contributes and benefits from the melee combo counter, does melee stagger). On top of this, while the ability is still active, the energy whip also provides you with some form of damage protection (just a flat damage reduction would do)

* Now for a further interesting bonus: If the ability is recasted (or when the ability ends by running out of duration), the energy whip will be removed, but will first do a wide arcing lash in front of Saryn before vanishing! This would make it possible to pop many spores at once, very, very quickly, at the expense of removing the energy whip. This effect could possibly also happen when you summon the energy whip (either on summoning, on ending, or both, doesn't matter really. Just something to make the ability more interactive overall)

* Power Range would affect the energy whip's lashing range (both the regular single target lashing as well as the wide arcing lash).

* Note that Molt was suggested to copy buffs from Saryn, this means that if you first cast Toxic Lash, then cast Molt, your Molt will also have the Toxic Lash ability on it!

 

-- Miasma

Make it consist of two things: Its current corrosive blastwave and also a toxic gascloud.

For the corrosive blastwave:

* Make its damage be quicker. An idea would be that this blast always deals its damage over 4 seconds. Increasing your Power Duration, rather than extending the duration, now would affect how many ticks of damage will be dealt during those 4 seconds. That would make it much burstier.

* Make each tick of damage have a 100% chance to proc Corrosive.

For the toxic gascloud:

* Where Saryn casts Miasma, a toxic cloud will also be spawned, which lingers on the cast location for X seconds (say up to 10 seconds?). This toxic cloud doesn't deal much (if any) damage, nor is it particularly big, but it does something more important: It causes enemies to be unable to see past the cloud! What this does in practice is to block enemies line of sight, forcing them to run closer to be able to acquire you and your allies inside / past the cloud! They could occasionally try to shoot into/past the cloud, but their accuracy would then be horrendous. Once they get inside the cloud, they can only see what is inside the cloud (maybe even with heavily reduced vision range?)

* For balance's sake, recasting Miasma should probably create a new toxic cloud at the new location at the cost of removing the old cloud first.

 

These changes would REALLY emphasize the three codewords: Midrange, Elusive and Debuffer

Debuffer - Already covered well (better so with the Corrosive procs on Miasma though)

Elusive - Invisibility on Molt and the LoS-blocking part of Miasma makes her really hard to target

Midrange - The ranges of her abilities, the Toxic Lash melee range powers, the invisibility on Molt allowing Saryn to get into closer range more safely, and likewise the LoS-blocking on Miasma bringing enemies closer to Saryn, all those things would really make her feel like she is supposed to be getting close to enemies / drawing enemies close to her.

 

Also think about FURTHER synergies that this would provide, such as this:  Cast Molt, Spore up the Molt, cast Miasma over it to further empower it and to draw enemies closer, then BLAM, explode the Molt once they are close!

 

What do you all think of that? :)

Edited November 15, 2015 by Azamagon

[Frosty_2.0]

RE: @taiiat:

In ME3 Co-op or Killing Floor for example, most of the mission you need to be environmentally aware, kite & move intelligently, make your head shots and abilities count; You could never just drop a CC bomb or nuke and be done with it like WF.

[...]

The word 'never' should probably not have been used, as everything has exceptions, but I otherwise stand by the the statement and this: (WF) "Map flow, kiting or repositioning barely factor in, especially with the massive CC powers and Bullet Jump/Copter speed".

If you're playing on early waves or Medium - Low difficulty you still have to be aware & move well ... of course you are more deadly at those difficulties. In regular WF missions most frames & melee are even more powerful..

doesn't work in Killing Floor 2 (thankfully), but in Killing Floor, your nuke was throwing a bazillion Grenades at something you didn't want to fight.

poof, it's gone.

Not at the difficulties (Hard - Suicidal) and versions we played regularly. I don't recall 'nade spam continuously nullifying all danger in the area at a button press, but it was a finite tool in our battlefield kit, one that I don't feel we were reliant on. You could just have a Demo or Support do that job if in a situation where 'nades would handle it.

There was a level of engagement, alertness, and team play; and if you died - consequences. Last time I played was long ago so I don't know how more recent versions with community weapons etc.. changed.

I actually enjoyed KF the most at the beginning before they added a lot of the new weapons, back when Zerkers' role was to behead Fleshpounds and the SS aiming at misaligned FP head hitbox etc..

How's KF2 progressing BTW? (PM me if you'd like)

in Mass Effect 3 MP - there were certainly Characters that had hilarious CC potential. sure, it didn't cover the entire map. but Enemes also didn't infinitely Scale so you could use your Abilities and attributes to close on Enemies and CC them effectively while Killing them.

some Characters had Abilities which functioned as localized Nukes, dealing pretty ridiculous Damage in a decent area.

At what difficulty? My friends' favoured difficulty was Gold with no/low consumables. Even Silver, mid-match it's not 1-step CC. You must defeat individual Shields/Barriers before CC powers work while Armoured targets get a pass, smart targeting is required as enemies can also dodge thrown powers, + duration and "stopping power" are less than average WF CC. And again, you are very much engaged in those fights and making head-shots or finishing combos, you can & will be flanked if you don't stay aware of your environment. I have no issue with "effective CC" and loved Snap Freezing weakened groups and shattering them with a combo & shield bash from my N7 Paladin, even more satisfying tearing down a Phantom's barrier and sending her flying with a shield bash.

There may not have been infinite scaling in either game but ME3 has Platinum difficulty and KF has Suicidal (& later Hell On Earth), that pushed effectiveness pretty damn hard when I used to play.

RE Nukes: Yes, a few characters had short range nuke like abilities and were nerfed while some still exist I'm sure. There was annoying Drell grenadier/speed-spammer build but I don't know if that was patched, Vanguard's Charge+Nova spam was patched (was bad as high-strength Miasma Spam), I recall an N7 Slayer build which was very powerful but not sure if that was deemed a problem, Phase Disruptor was adjusted.. The majority did not have nuke or CC anywhere near insta-WF levels & effectiveness.

- Actually I forgot one Limited Use item: Cobra Missle Launcher which is an actual localised nuke; but it's slow & must be aimed carefully to make it count. We'd only use it in late waves if opportunity arose to take multiple heavies like Banshees/Brutes/Atlases/Phantoms.. bunched together or a tough Assassination wave, otherwise saved for emergencies. In fact you had to purchase RNG packs to replenish (Side Note: ugh the drop system was AWFUL, esp. early on when EVERYTHING had to be pulled from the same packs... Talk about dilution) -

Basically: There are always specific situations/characters/weapons (like a raging Krogan or the final update Geth Juggernaut) that are exceptional performers (or "useless") in every game. Hell you can learn to solo Platinum with some very specific setups, that's clearly not the core gameplay though..

- The vast majority don't have spammable nukes equivalent to WF's (also disappearing from WF with these updates);

- CC powers are localised & not-instant on anything but unshielded grunts, in any decent fight you'd have to strip defences first for it to be effective and armoured targets negate most power CC, but you can still damage/combo/debuff them unlike enemies under a WF Nullifier bubble.

My points about timing of powers & movement/flanking, kiting heavies like Praetorians/Banshees.. Fleshpounds - They still stand with the vast majority of kits. And frankly the exceptions don't matter in that that was the core gameplay experienced and qualities to contrast against WF.

WF might've had those qualities if the maps & spawns, enemy design & behaviour etc.. were built from the ground up with the mobility we have now..

engagement distances in this two games were generally even shorter than Warframe however.

which come to think of it, think about how small he ME3MP Maps were in general - and yet, Sniper Rifles weren't considered 'useless'! i feel like there's a bit of user error in Warframe behind them being 'useless'. they could certainly be more unique and Et Cetera ofcourse though.

The maps are smaller but you also move slower & with tanky controls (ME3), on reflection WF battles really only occur in one tile/hub anyway with players often splitting off. At any rate most ME/KF classes can't close like a Warframe can.

Both KF Sharpshooters & ME3 Sniper-build Infiltrators (& Turian Ghost Harrier equiv.) buff the weapons significantly and are among the best classes IF you know what you're doing; in ME3 I've both witnessed and personally played as the Last Man Standing resulting in EPIC kiting / cat & mouse games with Infiltrators weaving through & picking off enemies & heavies to save the mission - that is about Skill as much as it is Build: Again it's awareness & timing & movement through the map, actually this happens in KF as well.

With WF, currently sets of shotguns, bows, rifles and some pistols are seen as superior to Sniper Rifles because they're as effective & more versatile in almost all circumstances IMO; + no scope FOV on aim.

I'm fine with 95% of the enemies you fight being junk mobs that die quickly and are replaced quickly. I would like it if heavy units (heavy gunners/bombards/ancients/corpus techs/so on) were buffed to actually be difficult to kill and given more interesting mechanics to make them feel like minibosses, and if there were only a few of them active at a time so that you bothered to keep track of them and care what they were doing; you know, actual priority targets.[...]

Also, the minibosses thing throws me back to some of those alert missions we had where the Corpus spawned Hyenas and Bursas. Those were awesome missions because you actually had to prioritize killing the Bursas or else they would kill you. Those missions provided real challenges, and I think DE should point to that for making the game more challenging and entertaining.

Agreed. And segues nicely in this post, as minibosses of varying uniqueness are used in Mass Effect 3 Co-op such as [Praetorian | Banshee | Phantom | Dragoon | Geth Prime].. or Killing Floor's [scrake | Siren | Fleshpound]..

And everyone else is still a threat while you deal with them so it's about priorities -do you need to avoid & thin out other rogues first?-, kiting so you don't get flanked, timing your moves.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Frosty_2.0

[taiiat]

At what difficulty?

Even Silver, mid-match it's not 1-step CC. You must defeat individual Shields/Barriers before CC powers work while Armoured targets get a pass, smart targeting is required as enemies can also dodge thrown powers

 

even more satisfying tearing down a Phantom's barrier and sending her flying with a shield bash.

 

Cobra Missle Launcher

(Side Note: ugh the drop system was AWFUL, esp. early on when EVERYTHING had to be pulled from the same packs... Talk about dilution) -

 

Kiting

i always preferred Gold. Platinum felt like the game was cheating a little bit.

and Silver was usually smooth sailing no matter what happened.

Gold with only a litle bit of consumables (basically using whatever low rank ones you had laying around just to use them up :p).

 

certainly yes - not press button CC. but still pretty well available, just localized and generally with much more risk to the Player.

some forms of CC required dealing with protecting Health Types - others, like Combo Explosions - don't.

 

Phantom's are so adorable. shoot it's Barrier, then use something like Throw on it and just go bowling with it. why bother Killing it? :D

 

ofcourse when using the Cobra, if you have any respect for yourself, it's an emergency last option.

since again, if you have any respect for yourself, you should feel like a slimeball if you use the Cobra. but sometimes Emergencies happen.

 

no kidding - some Equipment was just dumb to get. i can distinctly recall rolling Weapon packs hundreds of times and still never getting the things i was really looking for. Pools were huge.

ofcourse, i got plenty of whatever the Black Weapon Category was, though ironically what i was looking for was Rare Category. i guess i got too lucky most of the time.

 

i don't really see Kiting everything as a strategy. it helps survival a lot, but it's also an AI exploit.

it's engaging and fun to Kite an Enemy when you're being offensive or something of the sort - but having a freight train behind you that you're shooting once in a while is really boring and Players should feel ashamed of themselves if they're doing that.

i.e. there's a fine line between using Kiting as a strategy, and using it to remove all risk from yourself and let you read a book while you only half pay attention to said game.

 

 

and then ofcourse the Bugs, heh. Sniper Rifles were so incredibly powerful in ME3 MP mostly because of Hitbox exploits on almost all of the Mini-Boss Enemies.

 

 

yes, i know. in Killing Floor or ME3 MP you don't just press a button and all of the Enemies are no longer a problem.

i wasn't saying that you ever did/could do that. i was pointing out that, while not as easy to apply, ME3 MP definitely had sources of CC that you had readily available.

 

don't last as long as Warframe, but still last long enough for you to dish out Damage and reapply CC.

not so much Killing Floor ofcourse, as in Killing Floor CC is basically non-existent. very little of it exists.

 

 

Recasting Molt shouldn't immediately recast a new Molt

nothing. 

i repeat. nothing. is worth losing that functionality. being able to Cast it anytime i want anywhere i want is better than any other feature that i could possibly have.

 

everything else pretty much makes sense though.

with only a small adjustment - i don't see why Toxic Lash can't be both generic Damage Reduction and a Blocking Bonus. quite durable while you're blocking? yes, but i don't see a problem with that. still useful Damage Reduction for when you're not, so it's useful in all situations.

[Azamagon]

nothing. 

i repeat. nothing. is worth losing that functionality. being able to Cast it anytime i want anywhere i want is better than any other feature that i could possibly have.

 

everything else pretty much makes sense though.

with only a small adjustment - i don't see why Toxic Lash can't be both generic Damage Reduction and a Blocking Bonus. quite durable while you're blocking? yes, but i don't see a problem with that. still useful Damage Reduction for when you're not, so it's useful in all situations.

Calm a little, I only meant that recasting while another molt is already up = detonation. Press instantly again and you have another new molt instantly. So, the only difference is that you doubleclick the ability to get a new one, if you already have one out. If you don't have any molt out, it is instant as now. Hope that clears that up.

The reason I suggested that was to make sure she doesn't have an invisibility-ability which can be recast while it is already running + The ability to detonate a Molt at will, rather than the current iteration where you have to cast another molt to detonate the old one, possibly wasting energy, gives you much, much finer control over the ability, while not losing anything of it either.

 

Ah, about the blocking bonus - blocking really needs a rehaul in general. It's a bit offtopic, so I'm gonna put how I see blocking (and channeling) functioning in the following spoiler

BLOCKING:

 

* Blocking reduces CC-effects (just like now) and mitigates 100% of all frontal damage, and has a 100% chance to counterstun meleeing enemies (death to RNG!)

 

* Blocking lasts up to X amount of seconds (depending on weapongroup). While actively taking damage, this timer goes down. While blocking, but not taking any damage, the timer is just paused. When not blocking the timer recharges. This recharge speed also depend on the weapontype (Example: Small weapons like Daggers and Claws could have 3 seconds of blocking time, and require 1,5 seconds to recharge that timer. Medium weapons, like Staves and Longswords could have 4 seconds of blocking time, with a recharge time of 2,2 seconds. Heavy weapons like Heavy Blades and Hammers could have 5 seconds of blocking time, but requires 3 seconds to recharge that timer. Shield and Sword could have 5 seconds of blocking time and only need 2 second recharging to restore that big timer.

That way, the bigger the weapontype, the longer you can continuously block, but you also get worse regenerationtimes, while Shield and Sword would have the best blocking timer AND regenerationtime.)

 

* Blocking can be done in gunmode, but your blocktimer is halved and your rechargetimer is doubled. Thus, a much better tool to use in melee.

 

All this makes blocking a viable strategy while also makes sure that you don't hold down the blockbutton at all times. You HAVE to let go of it to recharge it.

 

CHANNELING:

 

* Channeling now drains 1 energy as soon as it is activated + another 2 energy per second. Doing this simple change helps ALL weapons to be melee viable. Currently, with the energydrain per hit, it favors heavyhitting weapons. But with an energydrain over time, all weapons would be good: Weapons that are quick and with high DPS, burstdamage weapons, far-reaching weapons, they would ALL work with this channeling much better!

Less bias, more viability.

 

* Channeling + blocking = 100% damage mitigation, 100% chance to counterstun meleeing enemies (just like regular blocking) as well as 100% damage reflected and it allows you to block non-stop (the REGULAR blocking timer is paused while channeling+blocking, but it doesnt deplete when under fire either, since you are now spending energy to block)

This makes channelblocking a powerful and useful tool that doesn't waste your energy in a matter of seconds (like it does now).

 

Ofc, these changes would require some changing to certain mods, mainly Parry. Here is my simple idea to change it:

Parry - Increases your blocking timer and blocking recharge speed by 6-36%

 

Blocking, channeling and channelblocking made viable and powerful in one big swoop.

^ In regards to Saryn, if one STILL wants her Toxic Lash to improve blocking, it could improve the blocking timer and blocking regeneration by some decent amount while Toxic Lash is active. Personally, I think that would be unnecessary though, as I find the other suggestions helping her survivability more than enough (particular the invis on Molt and LoS-blocking on Miasma). But if not enough, sure, go ahead and add a bonus like that :)

Edited November 15, 2015 by Azamagon

[taiiat]

Calm a little, I only meant that recasting while another molt is already up = detonation. Press instantly again and you have another new molt instantly. So, the only difference is that you doubleclick the ability to get a new one

 

The reason I suggested that was to make sure she doesn't have an invisibility-ability which can be recast while it is already running + The ability to detonate a Molt at will, rather than the current iteration where you have to cast another molt to detonate the old one, possibly wasting energy, gives you much, much finer control over the ability, while not losing anything of it either.

having to double tap is probably going to cause timing issues of exact placement sometimes. would prefer to not complicate things given the option.

 

not necessary - if Molt turned Saryn Invisible, if you couldn't reapply the Effect until it wears off, no matter how many times you cast Molt - you can't do it infinitely already.

which in that regard, it's probably more balanced for Invisibility to not be modified by Duration. i normally am for Mods affecting things, but for this not so much.

a fixed length Duration allows you to be Elusive, while being able to make it longer can let Saryn turn into a Stealth Warframe - something she isn't.

 

 

 

i didn't say Blocking is good, i just don't see why it can't benefit both. :p

[GhostLacuna]

New saryn=

 

Cast 1 once use gas ignis or gas hikou prime with concealed explosives. 

 

example 1= saryn with 235% range, viral procs on the whole room and the next more or less, spores viral damage at 40% strength= 8 damage per second. Useful for the viral debuff nothing else at higher level of play. 

 

example 2= Saryn with 145% range, viral procs on enemies in the same room you are in, spores damage at 100% strength= 20 damage per second. 

Still useful as a room debuff frame nothing else at higher levels of play. 

 

both builds at 175% efficiency flow for energy, vitality and regenerative  molt for durability. 

 

Miasma has no use at higher levels of play just like the old saryn.  

 

Sure Saryn is better at being a debuff frame now, but her durability is still crap and her molt does not last long enough to be reliable. 

 

Sure i could solo the alerts during the weekend with ease but i could have done that with any frame so that does not say much. 

 

Still had to cast molt over dozen times since saryn has no reliable CC at all. 4 seconds of stagger is not reliable CC especially at that cost. 

 

Toxic lash was still not used at all just like contagion had no use what so ever. 

 

Any weapon with toxin or gas is still safer, faster and more reliable to spread toxin procs then toxic lash ever will be. 

 

So DE effectively removed saryns niche as a speed exterminate clear frame.  at low and mid level. 

 

Now all she has going for her is spore and its ability to debuff several rooms or one single room depending on your range mods. 

 

But its meaningless since other frames do it better and faster while providing tons of more utility or CC with their kits. 

 

Many people will now put her on a shelf because she is not efficient enough to use. 

 

Those that liked saryn for what she was will stop using her and only those that are interested in the abilities of the new saryn despite her kits shortcomings will continue to play her. 

 

She never was my main and while spore works fine as a debuff in group play i for one will only use her when i feel the need to switch playstyle for a while. 

 

I tend to use my warframes dependent on what role i feel they fit into.  

 

Ext speed clear ember prime or mag prime depending on enemies

capture volt prime or zephyr

defence nova prime, frost prime, vauban, 

Rescue volt prime, loki prime, rhino prime, nova prime

Spy loki prime or duration ash

 

etc 

 

Saryn only fits the category casual play as of now but that category fits more or less all frames for me so the chance of her being used is greatly reduced as of now. 

 

I hope those of you that like the new saryn have fun, i for one will wait until i see further changes until i use her instead of other frames. 

[Rankii]

Has any of this even been looked at?

[TheBrsrkr]

Has any of this even been looked at?

Even if it wasn't, how would you know?

[GhostLacuna]

Has any of this even been looked at?

 

DEs only response has been that they will let the saryn changes marinate and that they wont do any kneejerk changes. They will also check some data on how she is used aka they will make use of tracking tools to investigate how she is played. 

 

Exactly what they can track and not track we dont know. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by GhostLacuna

[Rankii]

DEs only response has been that they will let the saryn changes marinate and that they wont do any kneejerk changes. They will also check some data on how she is used aka they will make use of tracking tools to investigate how she is played. 

 

Exactly what they can track and not track we dont know. 

So in other words she's getting the ember treatment and in "a good place"?

[GideonG]

Playing Saryn more ... I feel she's in a good place.

 

She went from a press-4 frame to a press-1 frame, though. Her 4 is still pretty good until around 40 minutes in Survival (which I consider fairly awesome), and her 1 still maintains utility all the way through because of it's Viral effect. Her 2 is decent, but lacks real survivability in later waves; however, given the damage she can deal, I feel it's fair. Toxic Lash is honestly the most "meh" skill, to me. It has great synergy with her 1 and 2, but it's pretty much impossible to make use of melee after a certain point.

 

She's pretty energy intensive if you try to combo her skills together. Melee returning energy when using Toxic Lash against Spored targets is nice, but melee falls off as an option pretty quickly. So, using Ignis/Hikou Prime tends to be the best option so you can save energy (by not having to use 3) and also increase survivability (staying outside of melee).

 

Overall, I think Saryn is in a decent place as a damage-support frame when used with certain weapon combos (Ignis/Hikou Prime). She has a great early-to-mid room clear ability and a 1 that scales very very well; she's gone from a farming frame to a viable option to take into endless missions and survivals. Yes, there are better options for damage-support, but at least she's more fun and more useful.

Edited November 16, 2015 by GideonG

[Machayna]

I guess you never used toxic lash, either I don't use it now so currently I don't have surviving Draco except facing Scorch, but I guess it is bugged because it randomly instakill everything.

anyway, try using toxic lash as intended in full melee to use that block bonus and see how it works

if you think toxic lash combine with hp nerf support that kind of play style, than fine, maybe I am all wrong about saryn revisit is a failure

I actually use melee only Saryn a lot. The only time I really have issues with her survivability is after the 20 minute mark in T3 and T4 survival.  More-so of course in T4. Unless you're talking about going more than 4 rounds on draco.  I guess I haven't really tested her past 4 rounds.  If you're thinking that she's going to be able to soak up bullets like valkyr then the problem might be in the approach.  You're right that she can't take a hit very well. I do agree with you though that she needs some extra work for survivability but I haven't had an issue in draco.  My aim is not to belittle your difficulties or anything like that.  I am just stating that I have done melee only with toxic lash and I've not had the same issues as you.  I'm used to running squishy frames though and I do melee only a lot.