Should Summons/minions Be Independent Of Duration Or No?

[(PSN)JCM_Unlimited]

In survival you still need life support so afk with non timer summoms will get you a loss fairly quickly. Defense on the other hand may last a bit longer but even then if you go afk after your first batch of shadows the enemies will simply be strongerror than them by the next wave or two. So you still lose...

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

I agree completely. That sounds like a very rewarding playstyle.

Including them to health orbs would be a simple way to do this. Necros himself can profit from them allready. No reason to exclude the shadows.

In survival you still need life support so afk with non timer summoms will get you a loss fairly quickly. Defense on the other hand may last a bit longer but even then if you go afk after your first batch of shadows the enemies will simply be strongerror than them by the next wave or two. So you still lose...

You allways loose if you go afk. Point is, it wouldn't unlock afk gameplay but rather be a healthy change.

[Sorise]

Well, most vouch for no duration so it doesn't matter what the naysayers say. There are always naysayers for everything and they are always negative.

 

What they can do is provide ways an idea can work rather than deny it or else they won't be taken too seriously.

 

In the end, health wins. It's either health or duration. Never both.

[(XBOX)Master4733]

I think they should either have no duration(also can be recast to kill all of them and summon minions) OR minion kills should count towards Nekros' kills, both would be a little op in my opinion

[BritishBob]

On the one hand I agree, it's annoying and silly. However, with the current implimention of summons it would be overpowered to just to let them run loose.

 

Why are they not drain per second?

 

You summon them, what keeps them here? You? I'm thinking Nartuo and his shadow clones here. Do you split your energy down to each summon or you do constantly feed them enrgy.

 

Energy drain like WoF (maybe not that slow) would make sense. They can die and when they do recast but while cast they have a drain.

 

 

My other idea is a frame based around summons, we haven't seen a summon frame and tbh I'd quite like a dedicated one.

Edited November 11, 2015 by BritishBob

[low1991]

Why are they not drain per second?

You summon them, what keeps them here? You? I'm thinking Nartuo and his shadow clones here. Do you split your energy down to each summon or you do constantly feed them enrgy.

Energy drain like WoF (maybe not that slow) would make sense. They can die and when they do recast but while cast they have a drain.

My other idea is a frame based around summons, we haven't seen a summon frame and tbh I'd quite like a dedicated one.

No to energy per second.

If DE changed to energy drain, base drainage will most likely be 6 to 8 per second.

That means, 175% PE + 200% PD, that's 2 PE slot + 2 to 3 Duration slot. (5).

 

Problem of slot starve remains, it's just toggle instead of single cast. Will properly further nerf Nekros' #4 overall (energy hungry).

+1 to either HP only or Duration only method. Same for Rumbler (i love them xD).

[Heliopata]

If the do that, they will probably nerf them in some way, probably streght wise and become cannon fodder and i love my killer rumblers.

I will be happy if spawned units try to avoid Nullifier bubbles.

[Zachatoo]

You mean the same efficiency mods that decrease duration?

I mean the same efficiency mods that allow you to recast Rumblers for as low as 25 energy. They have a very high duration already, I believe my Rumblers cost 40 energy and last over 40 seconds. 40 seconds to pick up 2 energy orbs.

Regarding other people, my one and only issue with this proposition is the promoting of afking. Greedy pull, aimbot Mesa, radial javelin Excal, these were all changed to discourage afking.

What is your purpose behind wanting no duration? His Rumblers are super cheap to upkeep, shadows of the dead are as well (even cheaper if you use despoil, not required). I'm 90% sure DE is going to leave it how it is unless they go crazy and change it to energy/second.

Edit: Clarification.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Zachatoo

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

As soon as you mention "Greedy Pull" which is as far from "afk gameplay" as you could get, I stop taking you seriously. Also, no one is gonna "summon then afk" when it comes to Defense, Exterminate, Survival, Deception, Sabotage, Interception, or Spy. His shadows aren't gonna seek out the ENTIRE map, they stay in the same room as Nekros and will only leave it when he's near the door (then only travel as far as to the middle of that room then wait and only IF there were enemies in that room) or as he moves.

You ever see what his shadows do when idle in void defense when they don't sense an enemy? (I'm using void cause the open room makes this very visible) They patrol back and forth. That's it, even if there is an enemy but its glitched in say a door to chase its own invisible tail, they don't run and seek it out unless the player gets close to it for them to register a threat.

In Survival, they wouldn't leave the room and they would kill everything outside of the range of your precious Carrier Vacuum, so any life support you could've used then is sitting not being used, on top of how often we know that enemies drop life support in general, and you know that if you aren't looking for Lotus' capsules when the enemy drops practically cease, you just failed that Survival because you thought you could leave while AI driven shadows killed stuff and offered no other utility than personal bodyguards. They aren't adding time to your clock, they don't aid in capturing Interception towers, they only kill things up to like....20-50m of Nekros' location and only if they sense anything, and they don't increase in level unless you replace them when they die against that Bombard/Napalm/Heavy Unit/Sapping Osprey that's 20 levels higher than they are.

Same for Atlas' Rumblers, they only act as personal bodyguards and nothing else. Killing hordes is 20% of the action. Making use of not dying yourself for being an idiot to think you could summon and then leave is the other 80%.

Also, I'll add this in real quick since you wanna call Nekros and Atlas "lazy press 4" if they removed duration. Miasma Saryn (console version), Exalted Blade Excalibur, Tornado/Tailwind Zephyr, Chaos Nyx, Vortex Vauban, Bladestorm Ash, Effigy Chroma, World on Fire Ember, Tentacle Hydroid, Hallowed Ground/Reckoning Oberon, Prism Mirage, Day-Form Equinox Mend and Maim, and Overload Volt.

_______________________________________

 

Also, if you think everyone is suddenly gonna jump to "Shadow summoner Nekros" just because the duration was removed, you must be very narrow minded. The normal grind to pick him up is costy and annoying (100k for a blueprint alone then a boss only accessible via key made with components found only in Derelict, then a boss with damage immunity to 99% of its body except its 3 mouths)  then the non-guarantee that it would only take you 3 runs to get the system/chassis/helmet. It's not worth buying a pre-made Nekros just to find out he's SUPER squishy until you get his shadow augment, which is useless until level 10, he has no polarity in his aura which means guaranteed use of a forma already, his 2nd ability is pretty much done better via Raksa/Wyrm/Nyx/Loki/Excalibur/Rhino (making enemies [mostly] harmless to you and nearby allies, then armor reduc is only useful against 1 faction [Grineer] and it costs too much to use anyways (75 energy to drop all nearby aggro vs free use via Raksa).

 

If no one really uses Nekros that much now, its not gonna change by this massive influx after. Much like Trinity Prime, she had a short-lived jump in [TERRIBLE] Trinities, then it died down because it was added glitter to a frame not many people used to begin with.

 

 

I think they should either have no duration(also can be recast to kill all of them and summon minions) OR minion kills should count towards Nekros' kills, both would be a little op in my opinion

His shadows already count towards his mission kill count. They just don't count towards his hidden "shadow list" is all.

Edited November 11, 2015 by (PS4)Foxkid_8

[EdBazokatone]

Guys.. stop dreaming, really... it won't happen.

 

Full Power Strength (284%) and you would have 19 pets with 284% HP and 426% damage, anyone thinking they won't survive long nor kill everything for you have not played a full strength Nekros before and doesn't know what is talking about. 

Without duration you would just press 4 to recast them when they are getting low on health, or you want higher lvl ones, every couple of minutes. It promotes AFK play so hard as others mentioned, you just move to pick LS.

 

Having duration on them ensures you to be "farming" new shadows more frequently.

 

I would love to see upgrades on the summoning system, because I love summoner Nekros, but this is not the way to do it. 

Edited November 11, 2015 by EdBazokatone

[kleerr2]

I personally think that, it is infact HP that has to go...

Atleast in Nekro's  case, since its ''Shadows Of The Dead''. The first thing you would think about is probablly going to involve ghosts. Ghosts cannot be killed, so thematically it would make much more sense if its the HP that goes. I would also love to see some more ability synergy, such as:

-Soul Punch in addition to its current effects will mark the targeted enemies(this is how spawned enemies should be chosen with Sotd).

-Terrify will now be cast from the spawned enemies of Sotd in a modifiable radious around each spawn, meybe include nekro aswell.

-Desecrate in addition to its current effects will now make remaining dead bodies of Sotd spawns explode dealing radiation(dabateable) dmg.

-Sotd spawns will have no HP, but will have a timer, in addition, every enemy type marked by Soul Punch will increase the spawn's lvl based on the killed marked enemy(mark a lancer with soul punch, kill a lvl 30 lancer, next time you use Sotd the lancer will be lvl 30, you don't have to mark everytime before you increase the spawn's lvl). Sotd will be spammable and upon activation all previous shadows die.

Now that would be worth spending alot of time into gameplay... Ofc its not going to happen, but anyway...

 

Also R.I.P. English

Edited November 11, 2015 by kleerr2

[(XBOX)DRKing7287]

I like this idea. I think the same thing should apply to Nyx's Mind Control as well. She should control that enemy until it dies.

[Sorise]

Guys.. stop dreaming, really... it won't happen.

 

Full Power Strength (284%) and you would have 19 pets with 284% HP and 426% damage, anyone thinking they won't survive long nor kill everything for you have not played a full strength Nekros before and doesn't know what is talking about. 

Without duration you would just press 4 to recast them when they are getting low on health, or you want higher lvl ones, every couple of minutes. It promotes AFK play so hard as others mentioned, you just move to pick LS.

 

Having duration on them ensures you to be "farming" new shadows more frequently.

 

I would love to see upgrades on the summoning system, because I love summoner Nekros, but this is not the way to do it. 

Or you don't, you haven't even considering any compensation therefore you aren't contributing...

 

You actually thought things would stay the same should duration be removed.

I mean the same efficiency mods that allow you to recast Rumblers for as low as 25 energy. They have a very high duration already, I believe my Rumblers cost 40 energy and last over 40 seconds. 40 seconds to pick up 2 energy orbs.

Regarding other people, my one and only issue with this proposition is the promoting of afking. Greedy pull, aimbot Mesa, radial javelin Excal, these were all changed to discourage afking.

What is your purpose behind wanting no duration? His Rumblers are super cheap to upkeep, shadows of the dead are as well (even cheaper if you use despoil, not required). I'm 90% sure DE is going to leave it how it is unless they go crazy and change it to energy/second.

Edit: Clarification.

Fire/Forget is luxury...

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

Guys.. stop dreaming, really... it won't happen.

 

Full Power Strength (284%) and you would have 26 pets with 384% HP and 576% damage, anyone thinking they won't survive long nor kill everything for you have not played a full strength Nekros before and doesn't know what is talking about. 

Without duration you would just press 4 to recast them when they are getting low on health, or you want higher lvl ones, every couple of minutes. It promotes AFK play so hard as others mentioned, you just move to pick LS.

 

Having duration on them ensures you to be "farming" new shadows more frequently.

 

I would love to see upgrades on the summoning system, because I love summoner Nekros, but this is not the way to do it. 

Maxed strength gives 19 pets, where's this 26 coming from? And their respective damage and health bonuses are 426% and 284%, so...I smell a troll...

[(XBOX)Master4733]

Maxed strength gives 19 pets, where's this 26 coming from? And their respective damage and health bonuses are 426% and 284%, so...I smell a troll...

Yeah, my solution use a mindfreak power strength and duration nyx mindfreak is affected by power strength

[(XBOX)DRKing7287]

Yeah, my solution use a mindfreak power strength and duration nyx mindfreak is affected by power strength

But building max duration destroys range which is the most important stat for nyx. And adding that range destroys strength. Having a single high dmg pet won't be enough to keep adequate fire off of you to survive in high level missions esp if you gimp the range of chaos. Unless you intend to just sit in absorb and let the pet kill everything but that sounds horribly boring. And even then we have no way to increase its health so it will prob die anyway.

[(XBOX)Master4733]

But building max duration destroys range which is the most important stat for nyx. And adding that range destroys strength. Having a single high dmg pet won't be enough to keep adequate fire off of you to survive in high level missions esp if you gimp the range of chaos. Unless you intend to just sit in absorb and let the pet kill everything but that sounds horribly boring. And even then we have no way to increase its health so it will prob die anyway.

Lol it was a joke first of all, but a good build can balance the abilities so it's possible

Mine has around 60 seconds for mindcontroll and around 725% damage, and has a 95% range

Edited November 12, 2015 by (XB1)Master4733

[EdBazokatone]

Maxed strength gives 19 pets, where's this 26 coming from? And their respective damage and health bonuses are 426% and 284%, so...I smell a troll...

You're smelling yourself then, if you see the time, I edited the numbers 5 hours before your post (see numbers on Sorise's quote...), when I realized I did the wrong math. Did you quote then but replied it 5 hours later? strange..

 

You actually thought things would stay the same should duration be removed.

No, I didn't think that things would stay the same, I thought things would be worse, I said exactly that and gave the reasons (afk promoting play style). I don't know where you got that I thought that.

 

 

Back on topic, with 284% hp still is close to having permanent pets. And with 426% more damage they will kill things, so it's not that they are getting damage all the time. Having that with not duration can last easily for 5 minutes, then you just press 4 and repeat the afk process.

 

When I say AFK, don't be narrow minded, of course I'm not saying that you would cast it at the start and wait for 30 mins and then extract. It's an expression to say you could only do something every few minutes, pick LS or recast 4.

 

Summons with no duration will last long enough to allow that kind of play.

[YBD215]

You're smelling yourself then, if you see the time, I edited the numbers 5 hours before your post (see numbers on Sorise's quote...), when I realized I did the wrong math. Did you quote then but replied it 5 hours later? strange..

No, I didn't think that things would stay the same, I thought things would be worse, I said exactly that and gave the reasons (afk promoting play style). I don't know where you got that I thought that.

Back on topic, with 284% hp still is close to having permanent pets. And with 426% more damage they will kill things, so it's not that they are getting damage all the time. Having that with not duration can last easily for 5 minutes, then you just press 4 and repeat the afk process.

When I say AFK, don't be narrow minded, of course I'm not saying that you would cast it at the start and wait for 30 mins and then extract. It's an expression to say you could only do something every few minutes, pick LS or recast 4.

Summons with no duration will last long enough to allow that kind of play.

They may need other tweaks and adjustments, but I think no duration would be good for the rumblers at the very least.

I think Nekros should be the opposite. His summons should be pure duration with no health. And you should be able to shoot through them. As pointed out by someone earlier, they are shadows after àll.

Edited November 12, 2015 by YBD215

[TaylorsContraction]

I have tried making a summon nekro build and the duration aspect makes it extremely dangerous. Getting rid of duration, or making it much longer for summons would be a welcome change.

[Sorise]

You're smelling yourself then, if you see the time, I edited the numbers 5 hours before your post (see numbers on Sorise's quote...), when I realized I did the wrong math. Did you quote then but replied it 5 hours later? strange..

 

No, I didn't think that things would stay the same, I thought things would be worse, I said exactly that and gave the reasons (afk promoting play style). I don't know where you got that I thought that.

 

 

Back on topic, with 284% hp still is close to having permanent pets. And with 426% more damage they will kill things, so it's not that they are getting damage all the time. Having that with not duration can last easily for 5 minutes, then you just press 4 and repeat the afk process.

 

When I say AFK, don't be narrow minded, of course I'm not saying that you would cast it at the start and wait for 30 mins and then extract. It's an expression to say you could only do something every few minutes, pick LS or recast 4.

 

Summons with no duration will last long enough to allow that kind of play.

No, you thought they would not compensate balance wise...

[Ajreil]

As soon as you mention "Greedy Pull" which is as far from "afk gameplay" as you could get, I stop taking you seriously. Also, no one is gonna "summon then afk" when it comes to Defense, Exterminate, Survival, Deception, Sabotage, Interception, or Spy. His shadows aren't gonna seek out the ENTIRE map, they stay in the same room as Nekros and will only leave it when he's near the door (then only travel as far as to the middle of that room then wait and only IF there were enemies in that room) or as he moves.

 

Even worse, depending on the enemy that got summoned, they may end up leaving and staying in another room all together, not even guarding Nekros.

 

Becuase shadows retain the AI of the enemy they represent, they will never be an ideal companion. Grineer hide behind things and refuse to tank, Infested run off and leave you, Corpus do face tank but die very quickly and can't do the same DPS as other factions.

 

A good Nekros will need to move with the pack if it moves, especially with a Shield of Shadows build. He can't, and shouldn't be able to, press 4 and watch his minions do all the work.

[PsychoticMarik]

I dont at all buy this idea that it promotes any sort of afking just because the duration is removed. No more than a great deal of other powers do.

 

Powers like Snow Globe, World on fire, Exalted Blade, Undertow, Hysteria, Blessing, Energy Vampire, Bastille, Vortex, Electric Sheild, Molecular Prime, Chaos, and even Nekro's own desecrate...I'm sure the list goes on.

 

Any and all of these can be argued to promote an aspect(some of course varying much more than others) of this "Afk playtstyle". Some of them with incredible ease. A press of a button and small amounts of energy can affect entire rooms of enemies for 40 seconds plus to literally do nothing but wait to be killed. Some of these need some toning down perhaps sure(some perhaps need replacements), but I doubt anyone would argue against them all. The horde style gameplay of Warframe needs to provide us with powerful means of CC, and if we remove all of these the game could become like a standard 3PS, or a game where all of a frames powers are either too similiar or all feel like a first power. Just think of the summons for what they truly are. A different means of CC in that they pull aggro and provide ok damage. The difference is the huge alternative playstyle they can create for a player.

 

Removing the duration on summons wont hurt the game. It will improve it. Its far more fun to allow a summon to survive until its hp hits zero, and provide the player with ways of maintaining their summons than to just go about the lazy way and slap a timer onto them. Which gives the player no incentive to do anything other than activate the power and move on. Which is closer to afking than asking the player to actually manage them. I've always hated timers in games when they dont feel like they belong. Its like putting a timer on how much fun you're allowed to have.

 

A Nekros would still have to be active in combat/mission objectives in order to win. Either because mission types or enemies would cause them to lose if they did nothing, or because if he's not active enough he wont be able to maintain or summon more shadows. He would still need to use his other powers when the situation calls for them, and he would still have to replace shadows that die if he fails to maintain them.

 

Even if they literally changed nothing about minions stats and scaling(which I very much doubt)they would still be inferior to a large portion of the powers I listed above. If only because they are AI controlled.

 

Think of how entertaining games like Starcraft, Brutal Legend, or kingdom under fire can be because they put the player in control of armies, and tell me it wouldnt be fun to have a portion of that placed into Warframe. It can be done. What seperates good devs from great ones is how they implement concepts like this, and Nekros in particular is in a position to deliver a very unique and usually ignored playstyle if DE are willing to put in the effort(and players are willing to ask for it)rather than settle for "good enough".

Edited November 12, 2015 by PsychoticMarik

[(PSN)Dark-TailedFox]

Even worse, depending on the enemy that got summoned, they may end up leaving and staying in another room all together, not even guarding Nekros.

 

Becuase shadows retain the AI of the enemy they represent, they will never be an ideal companion. Grineer hide behind things and refuse to tank, Infested run off and leave you, Corpus do face tank but die very quickly and can't do the same DPS as other factions.

 

A good Nekros will need to move with the pack if it moves, especially with a Shield of Shadows build. He can't, and shouldn't be able to, press 4 and watch his minions do all the work.

I don't know what kind of Nekros you've seen, cause mine will group up around me when I summon them if they don't patrol. The Grineer shadows tank when I use them, the Corpus shadows do damage and last quite a while, and the Infested Chargers and Ospreys will run around 6/10 times, sure, but Ancients, Leapers, and Crawlers stay pretty close until something runs up.

 

My pack doesn't leave of its own free will without reason to (threat detected) and will mostly move when I move.

[(XBOX)Master4733]

I don't know what kind of Nekros you've seen, cause mine will group up around me when I summon them if they don't patrol. The Grineer shadows tank when I use them, the Corpus shadows do damage and last quite a while, and the Infested Chargers and Ospreys will run around 6/10 times, sure, but Ancients, Leapers, and Crawlers stay pretty close until something runs up.

My pack doesn't leave of its own free will without reason to (threat detected) and will mostly move when I move.

Mine stay close too, maybe he doesn't have enough gym badges to controlling his pokeshadows?