Please De, No More Puzzle Raids

[-CM-Hekovashi]

I play warframe in order to stylishly kill dudes while firing from shotgun in their face, not to solve pazzles. Imma mr 20, 2k hours in game and never did or gonna do a raid, if it require me to solve puzzle, imma a freakin space ninja with superpowers that can fly around for Hek sake, not a batman that have some little fun with riddler

Edited November 13, 2015 by Hekovashi

[Jinmori]

You know what, i'd be fine with a bullet sponge. Just give me a huge &#! boss that i can shoot endlessly and is hard to kill if you can't design a complicated one. I don't care.

Just don't ask me to think in a space ninja game, i got all my life to do that. Nerds can enjoy puzzles if they want to, but i wont. I play that game to relax, not to squeeze my brain on how to solve a freaking puzzle that has no reason to be in a game like warframe.

 

F'course it's just my opinion.

[(PSN)Hayabusa_3-17]

Combat raid sounds a lot more fun than the raids we have now. Honestly I'm just doing LORs for the arcanes. I don't find it fun. It's memorization and repetition. Just memorize the pads/hacking panels. Use CC then repeat.

 

It's ironic how the best method of finishing the raid isn't actually killing the enemies but locking them in CC. This makes frames like Ash, Ember, Mesa, Saryn and other damage frames basically useless for the raid. That's my main gripe about it.

 

Mini-boss battles plus multi-phase boss sounds a lot more fun than Cannon-Fodder plus puzzles. I'd be fine with a bullet-sponge boss so there is actually a reason to bring 8 players instead of the usual 4-6 players to reduce puzzle time.

 

Edit: I'd like to add adding a damage cap for bosses for combat raids will balance out the incredible damage output of the tenno for all those who'd say a combat raid would be too easy.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Loki

[Cloud]

It's pretty clear at this point that DE has a design philosophy for raids. With the JV trial being almost identical in design to the LoR trial, it seems inevitable that future trials will also follow the same vein. In designing raids, DE prioritizes one thing above everything else: puzzle-solving. I don't think this is the right way to design a raid.

 

The problem with designing a puzzle-raid is that it's only fun the first couple of times you do them. When you figure out how to do it, it is no longer fun but simply becomes repetitious. I had a great time with clan members doing JV for the first time, figuring out what to do with soccerballs, where to put injectors, etc. But even after completing the trial only once I already know I won't be repeating it often. Once you know what to do - and trust me, it doesn't take many runs to figure it out - the trial has nothing else to offer. Go here, put the serum in the injector, hack this panel - repeating the same steps over and over again is NOT fun.

 

JV will doubtlessly go the way of LoR, where each repeated run feels more and more like a chore. The biggest problem with these trials is that they offer nothing new in the way of combat. LoR avoids combat altogether (via mass CC) and JV just throws hordes of Infested at you. There's no challenge to it at all, nothing new from the same enemies we've been killing for the last hundreds of hours. Once you figure out the gimmick, the trials are unbearably shallow.

 

What do I want? I want a raid where combat is actually difficult and fun, where you shouldn't be able to CC enemies then pretend they don't exist, where a LACK of enemies is more problematic than a surplus because you can't find Antiserum. Please DE, no more puzzle raids

36 likes seriously? What is bad in your heads? Do you seriously prefer another killing-all-enemies-mindless mission?

I think that warframe players (who overtime become always more lazy) are coming to a point in which they don't want even think in a mission... they just want to enter and kill mindless all life forms in the map and rush to grab the rewards.

Puzzle games are ESSENTIAL in Raids, don't even try to propose to get rid of them.

[The_Raall]

more puzzles pls... we need them also for other missions than just raids!

[Morec0]

Yes, who needs puzzles in Trials? Just add lots of sponge enemies and you have the recipe for a perfect Trial!

 

That was sarcasm.

 

I came here to add this but you beat me to it.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Morec0

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

There are other ways to design combat than make every enemy a bullet sponge. But then again, neither you nor DE seem to understand that.

Exactly. Also, what we have now aren't even really puzzles, it's more like a recipe, there's nothing to figure out the 2nd time around. What's good about that?

 

I just want something fun that requires some coordination, there's no reason why the objective can't be obvious so that it's more accommodating to new players. The challenge should be in completing the objective, not figuring out what the heck it is.

 

LOR has pretty decent clues, like the ground wires to follow, but it is was still so contrived, illogical, and different from normal game play that a new player can't help but bewildered. From what I saw of the new trial it seemed to be even more lacking in clues/direction.

 

For the people that like the current trials, great, now you have 2; but if there's going to be a 3rd trial, let's try something else that the rest of us might enjoy playing.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

The LOR raid isn't fun and the puzzles in it aren't really puzzles. And if they were puzzles by now unless you are the worst puzzle solver ever you've figured it out and it's just repetitive motion. I'm sure JV isn't too much different. So stop saying you enjoy the puzzles because you don't or you did at one point but now realize what you do is just repetition. Also stepping on pads and hitting buttons don't constitute a puzzle. Bring on the better bosses and enemies. You guy's quasi puzzles mindset has given DE a greenlight to recycle through plain enemies even for Raids.

Edited November 13, 2015 by (XB1)Lorewalker1022

[NoPainNoPotato]

Lephantis is a nice boss fight imo, they could use similar mechanics but making it a bit harder for new raids, no need for all those crazy puzzles.

[Skaleek]

I would love a trench warfare 8 man trial where you have to push against massive waves of enemies that can't be cc'd, but they cant do it, mostly due to console limitations. Also DE has pretty great boss fights, just sayin.

 

I do feel like the puzzles become a chore though. With the vay hek raid i feel like warframes identity is lost because you arent jumping around like a ninja, you're immobile 90% of the raid. You're also spending your time trying not to kill enemies, and just cc'ing them as you stand still, really not warframes mantra.

 

An oldschool mode where you have a very oppresive energy drain so you cant use blessing trinity would go a long way to making a combat raid viable. Or honestly, disable trinity in a combat raid.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Skaleek

[Wotca]

You can't just say make a combat raid without addressing some serious questions about the mechanics of it.  People can and will continue to find ways to one shot bosses.  If you balance against that you make it inaccessible to anyone with lesser setups.  Damage caps would just frustrate people.  Same goes for junk mobs, how to balance them to make it challenging without creating a clear separation of who can and cannot do it?

 

Puzzles imo are the least exclusive way to set up raids. More importantly, they can be fun if they're not set up to be frustrating.  LoR did a good job of adding visual indicators to help you understand the puzzles but the puzzles themselves were too tedious.  Lots of standing still and doing nothing but cc'ing.  With JV the puzzles require less of your team members at the same spot at the same time and there is far less waiting around.  You're also encouraged to kill mobs.  Where it failed is that there are no visual indicators to direct you in any way, making it kind of a clusterfudge at the last stage.  But at least it is better than LoR.  they're learning.

 

TLDR: Pure combat raids with no puzzles would suck.  Puzzles are good but they need to (continue to) get better at making them.

[bibliofoe]

Don't mind me just reading because I haven't even attempted the raids yet...

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

Here is a simple thought Raid Bosses are meant for teams that are prepared to fight them.

 

For all the people who say how are you going to work out the mechanics of a boss so that it's not too difficult for newer players or players who don't yet have the right setup to compete against it affectively.

Once again Raids can be available to anybody but the Raid bosses should only be beaten by those who are prepared to beat them. It's not something you have to make "fair" to everyone. When you get to the point where you can beat the final Raid boss of Raid A let's say then you are ready to complete the Raid. There is not such thing as "oh but you make it inaccessible" to players with lesser setup. No, you just have to better prepare yourself, which you will, and eventually you'll be able to do the mission.

Stop trying to make it sound like DE should need to balance a Raid boss so that everyone from the guy who just started yesterday to the guy that's been playing for 2 years can beat and play against.

There were boss fights I couldn't beat when I started out too, but eventually I got better and got better equipment and mods and the whole 9 yards. You don't make something "fair" for the simple sake that everyone can fight it at the current moment. No you make something challenging so that eventually everyone if they stick with it can beat it.

 

Raid bosses are meant to be difficult. Sometimes very difficult (requiring a combination of physical damage and tactics and even some puzzle solving while your fighting the boss to beat it). So yes, DE needs to make new Raid bosses and mini raid bosses who are challenging and difficult to beat and REQUIRES you to figure out how to beat them and not just anybody can go in there and fight them simply because you want to make it accessible to all players.

Vay Hek for example is a TERRIBLE Raid boss. What is that? You tell me. You "solve" all these "puzzles" that aren't really puzzles and by the time you get to the boss he isn't even hard.

And people don't tell me how great these Raids are or anything remotely along those lines. You act like you've never seen or played a raid in another game before and you're just here blindly to justify what DE is doing. Warframe raids are bad. It's not very good. And they need to realize that.

Are you having fun repeatedly "solving" the same so-called puzzles over and over again only to fight a boss that is less than fascinating to kill and on top of that is a boss that's been recycled through and through and that you have already met and fought before in this game? Furthermore while you are completing these Raids you are fighting completely recycled enemies that you've seen a million times over and over again. Is this what you are telling me is fun?

Once again from my previous post DE needs to either

 

1) Make more challenging boss fights (at least give us some new bosses to look at)

 

or

 

2) Make puzzles variable. The puzzles need to change it can't be static.

 

[BPNPC]

Here is a simple thought Raid Bosses are meant for teams that are prepared to fight them.

 

For all the people who say how are you going to work out the mechanics of a boss so that it's not too difficult for newer players or players who don't yet have the right setup to compete against it affectively.

Once again Raids can be available to anybody but the Raid bosses should only be beaten by those who are prepared to beat them. It's not something you have to make "fair" to everyone. When you get to the point where you can beat the final Raid boss of Raid A let's say then you are ready to complete the Raid. There is not such thing as "oh but you make it inaccessible" to players with lesser setup. No, you just have to better prepare yourself, which you will, and eventually you'll be able to do the mission.

Stop trying to make it sound like DE should need to balance a Raid boss so that everyone from the guy who just started yesterday to the guy that's been playing for 2 years can beat and play against.

There were boss fights I couldn't beat when I started out too, but eventually I got better and got better equipment and mods and the whole 9 yards. You don't make something "fair" for the simple sake that everyone can fight it at the current moment. No you make something challenging so that eventually everyone if they stick with it can beat it.

 

Raid bosses are meant to be difficult. Sometimes very difficult (requiring a combination of physical damage and tactics and even some puzzle solving while your fighting the boss to beat it). So yes, DE needs to make new Raid bosses and mini raid bosses who are challenging and difficult to beat and REQUIRES you to figure out how to beat them and not just anybody can go in there and fight them simply because you want to make it accessible to all players.

Vay Hek for example is a TERRIBLE Raid boss. What is that? You tell me. You "solve" all these "puzzles" that aren't really puzzles and by the time you get to the boss he isn't even hard.

And people don't tell me how great these Raids are or anything remotely along those lines. You act like you've never seen or played a raid in another game before and you're just here blindly to justify what DE is doing. Warframe raids are bad. It's not very good. And they need to realize that.

Are you having fun repeatedly "solving" the same so-called puzzles over and over again only to fight a boss that is less than fascinating to kill and on top of that is a boss that's been recycled through and through and that you have already met and fought before in this game? Furthermore while you are completing these Raids you are fighting completely recycled enemies that you've seen a million times over and over again. Is this what you are telling me is fun?

Once again from my previous post DE needs to either

 

1) Make more challenging boss fights (at least give us some new bosses to look at)

 

or

 

2) Make puzzles variable. The puzzles need to change it can't be static.

 

Exactly. The boss fight of the raid shouldn't be the easiest part (by far) of the raid.

[Rhundis]

Want to piss people off? Add stealth to the raid, and you can't bee seen even once.

[Rhundis]

Really? When Raids first came out people thought they were either awesome or too hard.

What changed in the player base that I apparently missed?

[Brachion]

Two things, mainly. The first is that people have gotten over the novelty, and have started to view raids as just another grind. The second is the fact that the Jordas Golem raid is almost impossible due to how finicky and buggy some of the puzzles are.

[Tacritan]

This is how bosses should look like. Rhino could clash bosses like Karok in Vindictus :P

[Wotca]

Here is a simple thought Raid Bosses are meant for teams that are prepared to fight them.

 

For all the people who say how are you going to work out the mechanics of a boss so that it's not too difficult for newer players or players who don't yet have the right setup to compete against it affectively.

Once again Raids can be available to anybody but the Raid bosses should only be beaten by those who are prepared to beat them. It's not something you have to make "fair" to everyone. When you get to the point where you can beat the final Raid boss of Raid A let's say then you are ready to complete the Raid. There is not such thing as "oh but you make it inaccessible" to players with lesser setup. No, you just have to better prepare yourself, which you will, and eventually you'll be able to do the mission.

Stop trying to make it sound like DE should need to balance a Raid boss so that everyone from the guy who just started yesterday to the guy that's been playing for 2 years can beat and play against.

There were boss fights I couldn't beat when I started out too, but eventually I got better and got better equipment and mods and the whole 9 yards. You don't make something "fair" for the simple sake that everyone can fight it at the current moment. No you make something challenging so that eventually everyone if they stick with it can beat it.

 

Raid bosses are meant to be difficult. Sometimes very difficult (requiring a combination of physical damage and tactics and even some puzzle solving while your fighting the boss to beat it). So yes, DE needs to make new Raid bosses and mini raid bosses who are challenging and difficult to beat and REQUIRES you to figure out how to beat them and not just anybody can go in there and fight them simply because you want to make it accessible to all players.

Vay Hek for example is a TERRIBLE Raid boss. What is that? You tell me. You "solve" all these "puzzles" that aren't really puzzles and by the time you get to the boss he isn't even hard.

And people don't tell me how great these Raids are or anything remotely along those lines. You act like you've never seen or played a raid in another game before and you're just here blindly to justify what DE is doing. Warframe raids are bad. It's not very good. And they need to realize that.

Are you having fun repeatedly "solving" the same so-called puzzles over and over again only to fight a boss that is less than fascinating to kill and on top of that is a boss that's been recycled through and through and that you have already met and fought before in this game? Furthermore while you are completing these Raids you are fighting completely recycled enemies that you've seen a million times over and over again. Is this what you are telling me is fun?

Once again from my previous post DE needs to either

 

1) Make more challenging boss fights (at least give us some new bosses to look at)

 

or

 

2) Make puzzles variable. The puzzles need to change it can't be static.

 

Warframe doesn't even work like this.  You don't play for 2 years and slowly gain more and more power.  You have access to top tier stuff almost right away.  Using a meta group you can flat out 1 shot any boss in the game currently (disregarding invulnerability phases).  If you balanced around that you would effectively be saying that the boss is only accessible to those who choose to use the meta.  There's no gear progression to use a difficulty benchmark.

 

So, for your #1, how about you give one good suggestion on how to improve bosses?  I agree that bosses are lacking but what are the alternatives besides these pie in the sky 'make them more fun' empty suggestions.  Maybe damage 3.0 is the answer I don't know.

 

And for your #2, variable puzzles I could see as helpful, but only if they are not unnecessarily complex.  Puzzles should strive to be fun and engaging without requiring absurd levels of luck or memorization to get through.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

The issue is that these simply are not good Raids.

Sure in the beginning all the Raids are generally hard because you haven't done it and don't know what to expect. But just because a Raid is hard in the beginning doesn't make it truly a difficult or complex raid.

 

Here are issues with DE raids

 

1) Raid enemies are all recycled

2) Raid bosses are recycled

3) Raid enemies and bosses are not difficult because DE tries to make it so all players can play against them. This shouldn't be the case. Only players who are prepared to play against them should be able to fight them effectively. So if your MR5 and you are well prepped then perfect, if you need to farm and grind until you are MR8 then so be it. If you don't feel comfortable until your MR15 then that's fine too. The point is Raid bosses and enemies shouldn't just be made so easy just so it's "FAIR" to the entire player base.
4) Raid puzzles aren't really puzzles. They are mechanics that once you've figured out once or twice it's muscle memory from there on out.

5) Raid puzzles are static.
6) Raids lack a good storyline. (Vay Hek raid. "Let's finish him off". Boring. Jordas Verdict. "Jordas said he wasn't the last of his kind. Guess what he was right." Boring". Introduce a new boss with a good storyline to capture the player's attention.
7) Raids lack cinematics (this is a personal preference. I'd like a little more cinematic with my Raid storylines).

All these reasons make the WF raids mediocre at best.

Edited November 13, 2015 by (XB1)Lorewalker1022

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

@ wotca - I'm not DE it's not my job to come up with more complex and challenging bosses for them. I just know they need to figure something out. I'm not a developer so admittedly I don't know how they should go about it. I just know that what they have now isn't working. And honestly that's all I need to know. As a player if something isn't working I let the devs know about it and that's what my post is letting them and everyone else know.

 

I agree that you don't have to wait 2 years to gain more and more power, but that's not my point. I probably didn't express it well but my point is right now the Raid bosses really anybody can kill them. But that shouldn't be the case. A guy who has more experience with the mechanics of the game and has play tested various setups should be able to fight the boss, not some guy who just happened to start playing the game a little while ago. I am assuming here that on average experience still counts even if most weapons are accessible to even new players. And that's the point these bosses should be complex enough where experience and really knowing the game and really play-testing your setups matter. Nowadays anybody can go in there and make it happen.

 

And you know what I'll do you one better. I'll use MYSELF as the perfect example. The first time I played LOR (literally the very first time) I was in a group with a couple people I knew and most people I didn't (so basically random). I had never before played the raid ever. I played as Mirage and we won, and it was pretty easy. Sure we had a couple of veteran raiders on the team but most of the team was just randoms. Like it should be more complex than that...not just harder...but more complex. Because when something is simply hard you can walk a first timer through without much difficulty (like I was) but when something is interestingly complex, you can't just walk them through it. That is what our raids are missing.

Furthermore I had never fought Vay Hek the raid boss and I was expecting him to be at least more varying in arsenal and combat style then his old self on Oro. But imagine my surprise when I hit him the first time and watched his health go down like he was just another enemy. If that is fun to anyone, then I'll stop debating.

Also the only question to me that is relevant is "Are you having fun with the current raids?". If no, then pretty much everything I've said above in the 4 posts I've made to this thread.

 

You know who is not helping?...the people coming on here insisting that these "puzzles" are fun and that they are interesting.

Once again these are mediocre Raids on the best day. On the worst day it's just buggy, unrealiable, going-through the motions, are you bored yet missions.

Edited November 13, 2015 by (XB1)Lorewalker1022

[BPNPC]

Warframe doesn't even work like this.  You don't play for 2 years and slowly gain more and more power.  You have access to top tier stuff almost right away.  Using a meta group you can flat out 1 shot any boss in the game currently (disregarding invulnerability phases).  If you balanced around that you would effectively be saying that the boss is only accessible to those who choose to use the meta.  There's no gear progression to use a difficulty benchmark.

 

So, for your #1, how about you give one good suggestion on how to improve bosses?  I agree that bosses are lacking but what are the alternatives besides these pie in the sky 'make them more fun' empty suggestions.  Maybe damage 3.0 is the answer I don't know.

 

And for your #2, variable puzzles I could see as helpful, but only if they are not unnecessarily complex.  Puzzles should strive to be fun and engaging without requiring absurd levels of luck or memorization to get through.

That's simply not true. You do NOT have access to top-tier stuff right away. Maxing out Serration, corrupted mods, Prime mods take an incredibly long time, and even acquiring those mods can take dozens of hours. Not to mention acquiring Prime frames and weapons, enough MR to unlock weapons, enough potatoes, etc. There is a HUGE path of progression in Warframe. My profile and my playstyle are worlds apart from the me that started playing after a week or even a month.

 

You argue that the raid should NOT only be accessible to those who choose the meta, but that's exactly what is happening now - LoR only has certain frames that are used and JV will quickly head there. Furthermore, why should Raid be accessible to everyone? If Raids are endgame as they are suppose to, then they clearly should NOT be accessible to everyone.

[7Lions]

You can't just say make a combat raid without addressing some serious questions about the mechanics of it.  People can and will continue to find ways to one shot bosses.  If you balance against that you make it inaccessible to anyone with lesser setups.  Damage caps would just frustrate people.  Same goes for junk mobs, how to balance them to make it challenging without creating a clear separation of who can and cannot do it?

 

Puzzles imo are the least exclusive way to set up raids. More importantly, they can be fun if they're not set up to be frustrating.  LoR did a good job of adding visual indicators to help you understand the puzzles but the puzzles themselves were too tedious.  Lots of standing still and doing nothing but cc'ing.  With JV the puzzles require less of your team members at the same spot at the same time and there is far less waiting around.  You're also encouraged to kill mobs.  Where it failed is that there are no visual indicators to direct you in any way, making it kind of a clusterfudge at the last stage.  But at least it is better than LoR.  they're learning.

 

TLDR: Pure combat raids with no puzzles would suck.  Puzzles are good but they need to (continue to) get better at making them.

 

oh wise one, please tell us how to one shot JV in wang mode, with no WF skills