Rhino Changes Feedback [U18 Megathread]

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I still think rhino charge should be like a bulldozer and have an after effect much like neo in matrix two...where any enemy that isnt destroyed is pulled behind rhino until his charge stops, in which case the enemy flies across the map.

[xDONx]

I think that "rework"was just some buffs, not exactly a rework. For me Rhino has to be the original tanker with everything focused in armor. We have Atlas, but he's a brawler, Valkyr is a berserker, Rhino must be the true tank.

 

More damage on Rhino Charge based on armor and more armor on Iron Skin based on armor, dunno, something like that.

Roar is a skill that needs to be reworked as well, it's too generic and for me doesn't fit the tanker purpose. This could be changed to a taunt to aggro or something else.

 

And something that I liked on Rhino Charge is that it synergises with Iron Skin, it would be cool if all his skill had a secondary effect when Iron Skin is active.

 

And, well, his base stats are something bizarre, he should have more life than shields and more armor too.

Edited December 12, 2015 by xDONx

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

You mean whatever rhino hits with charge he then grabs and throws it at the end of charge?

Yep.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

https://youtu.be/KY_pTVfz3gU

Theres the clip im talkin about from matrix

[(PSN)Raiden_Roy22]

this changes is only focused on rhino charge... for me is kinda of a joke 

[Zarozian]

Plus melee mods should of definitely applied to the charge attack~

 

And it should of locked on to enemies like Atlas's landslide.

Also give Rhino like 700 Armor.

[Thelonious]

 - The passive is completely useless: it does no significant damage and it doesn't cc. It's just a flashy effect at this point. 

 

 - Rhino Charge triggering both blast proc and ragdoll is redundant. The ragdoll itself sure is fun to watch, but is hindering the ability to finish off enemies, since they fly around the place randomly.

Keeping just the blast proc is better from a gameplay perspective.

Also, I suspect that range scaling with combo counter is a leftover of melee mod damage scaling design (fortunately scrapped, we don't want Rhino to become a 1-spammer-only like Atlas), because it seems out of place atm.

 

 - Having aggro draw during the invincibility phase of Iron skin would be quite intuitive.   

 

The rest is fine: not completley imbalanced, but not weak either; in a good place.

[Sir.X]

I think the number one thing that annoys me about Rhino is that the game states he is a tank, THE tank, hell, even the profile video states this:

 

"Combined with Armor, Health, and shield mods, he becomes an almost unstoppable tank. Rhino can survive alone, or become the cornerstone of any squad".

 

So, for nearly every type of Tank frame they have released, they either have higher armor than him, or they have abilities that allow them to become super tanky and resist very high amounts of damage.

I became even more annoyed whenever Wukong was released, not because of his Defy ability(he IS a Deity), but because he got the same armor value of Rhino prime.

If Rhino prime's armor got buffed close to around Valkyr's armor value, I would be completely satisfied. Valkyr has a reason to have the highest amor value, because she was torn apart by the Corpus and was gonna be rebuilt to function like the Zanuka.

 

You can't say a frame is a "tank" if they don't have a high value of armor.

[Zarozian]

Lock into enemies? Lol no that would suck. First of it would be almost identical to landsile if you also add melee mods mechanic. That would mean you would no longer ram the line of enemies but would only hit the first one and few around him, like landslide, and would be only usable if there would be enemy around and only in enemies direction, like a landslide, meaning you would pretty much destroy mobility aspect of this ability. I understand why you want melee mods mechanic but the lock on mechanic is out of place for this ability.

 

And 700 armor? I know many of you want more armor on rhino but damn keep it realistic. That way rhino would have second to highest shields and the highest armor, and i asumed you ment that for normal rhino so just what would then rhino prime have. I am not agains rhino having more armor but some of just take it a bit too far.

If it locks on to armor it would allow him to use that charge's multiplier more easily, as well as make it easier to use that Ironclad Charge augment more effectively.It won't be identical to Landslide because it isn't Landslide. It will be similar but not identical at all. 

 

As for armor how much do you believe he should get?

 

I'd say 700 for the prime is quite reasonable. It's not like we're giving it to the regular Rhino.

 - The passive is completely useless: it does no significant damage and it doesn't cc. It's just a flashy effect at this point. 

 

 - Rhino Charge triggering both blast proc and ragdoll is redundant. The ragdoll itself sure is fun to watch, but is hindering the ability to finish off enemies, since they fly around the place randomly.

Keeping just the blast proc is better from a gameplay perspective.

Also, I suspect that range scaling with combo counter is a leftover of melee mod damage scaling design (fortunately scrapped, we don't want Rhino to become a 1-spammer-only like Atlas), because it seems out of place atm.

 

 - Having aggro draw during the invincibility phase of Iron skin would be quite intuitive.   

 

The rest is fine: not completley imbalanced, but not weak either; in a good place.

Which is why I proposed that it locks on to enemies like Landslide.

[NogginMasher]

Probably restating what many others have said in this thread.

 

Rhino got a buff, not so much a rework.

 

Charge

Still more of a utility skill, good for moving around the map, clearing out hallways cluttered with trash mobs and quickly getting to a fallen teammate.

The augment Ironclad is now way more useful, as the armor buffs from charge now apply to iron skin. Augment is a little spotty when I'm playing Rhino and I'm not the host.

Hosting  --> +97% armor buff for every enemy I hit for 12 seconds.

Client --> +24% armor buff for every enemy I hit for 4-7 seconds.

Fix that, please.

 

Iron Skin

Scaling with armor is sensible, and I think the numbers are in the right place. Ironclad armor buff can scale up iron skin tremendously.

I nailed 10 enemies at the start of a T3 surv, hit 2, and my iron skin lasted 25 mins until a nullifier wiped it out (still at 65% at the time!)

Running some numbers, with 200% strength, 701 armor and ironclad buff, you gain about 3500 iron skin heath for every enemy you whack (roughly). If you nail a lot of guys (5-15, which is actually hard to do in one shot unless you're beating on infested in hallways), iron skin will scale up to very high values, 25-50K health.

I think Rhino and Rhino Prime could use a modest armor buff, up to 300-500 range. Doesn't need to reach Valkyr levels, as ironclad augment can help a lot. But should definitely be higher then Excalibur with his high dps/low risk exalted blade or Frost that hides in his snow globe at all times.

 

What would really help iron skin is the ability to recast it like snowglobe. That would also encourage using the ironclad augment. Hit 2, find some trash mobs, smack 'em with Rhino charge, get an impressive armor buff, recast iron skin to make use of the armor buff. Find even more trash mobs later, get a bigger armor buff, recast iron skin again. That alone I think would make iron skin very powerful, and scale well into missions where mobs start getting bigger and bigger.

 

The invulnerability period at the very beginning wherein iron skin absorbs all incoming damage and adds it to final iron skin health is really quite useless. I don't think the ability even needs it.

Think about it. If you're in a intense firefight with a trash mob with an average DPS of 500, and you hit iron skin, the first three seconds will absorb 3 seconds worth of trash mob DPS, 1500 dmg. The next three seconds, the trash mob dishes out all that damage again, 1500 dmg, and negates the added iron skin health you just got. Get shot for 3 secs, gain health. Get shot for another 3 secs, lose all the health you just gained. It's pointless in intense firefights later in the game.

What works really, really well is being a retard and shooting yourself in those first 3 seconds.

Get an angstrum, or kulstar, as your sidearm, hit 2, then fire a full rocket/missile/bomblet volley at your feet. Gain 16000 health to iron skin, and breeze through most content w/o a care in the world.

 

Nullifiers have earned a lot more hatred from me now. Run around carefree with super thick ironclad buffed iron skin for 25 mins in surv, run into 1 nullifier that eats your iron skin instantly, then get murdered in the blink of an eye.

Instead of a nullifier instantly wiping out a carefully buffed 50 K iron skin just by wandering through a door at just the wrong moment, what if nullifiers now eat away at 5% iron skin for every second Rhino is in his bubble? This would give Rhino a job now. Hit iron skin, run into the bubble, quickly kill the nullifier, repeat. Don't kill the nullifier in time, Rhino dies like everyone else.

 

Roar

Nothing changed, and I don't think it really needs to. Maybe make this ability pull a lot of aggro to Rhino. This would be useful for defense missions when the enemy is wailing on the cryopod, or when your squishy, heathen dessekros buddy keeps getting murdered by an angry mob.

 

Stomp

Yay it's recastable! In a good spot otherwise, nice 10 second pause button for you to heal a team mate or just take a breather.

 

Passive

It looks and feels really cool. Rhino can stop time with his stomp, and make explosions whenever he lands. But it doesn't work at all. I have never knocked an enemy down, done any measurable damage or even popped open loot crates.

 

What would be cool that someone else thought of is a shotgun buff. Mesa's passive gives her a fire rate/reload speed buff for single/dual pistols. Give rhino a reload speed/clip size buff for semi-auto/full-auto shotguns. That'd be useful, and fit his playstyle of tank the mobs and stomp the bad guys.

[Zarozian]

Sorry but are you saying you need aimbot to help you hit targets with rhino charge? Laughable (srsly its really easy to hit)

And no lock on wouldnt make it better for ironclad charge in fact it would make it even worse cuz you would stop at first enemy instead of raming everyone in your path resulting in less armor bonus from mod.

And again no, and this time even more no, it wouldnt help you with multiplier cuz the hell where did you come up with that? Are you trying to say you need aimbot bot freaking help you activate ability multiple times? Sorry but i am really not getting this one

And if this would happen the please tell me just what exacly would be the difference between rhino charge and landslide? Other than pure visualy of course.

And sorry even if you add lock on enemies would still fly around randomly.

 

As for your so precious armor, yes it still is too much if you ask me. And rhino really doesnt particulary need armor, why you are complaining is because you are looking on other frames which to be honest not all stats are fairly balanced, not only between tanks you can also compare ivara and normal loki for example and you will see. Just increasing rhinos armor wouldnt solve that much i think DE needs to make complete stats rebalance, take it more accurately and systematicly.

It makes spamming it easier.

 

You claim it's too much yet you yourself won't give an amount that would be appropriate?

[Xazur]

I am honestly not sure how I feel about Rhino's charge now being affected by range, I usually only used rhino for his buff so I added duration which also improved his charge range which was good for getting around. I could deal with a small aoe Stomp since it was only situational if I needed to CC some mobs. Also Rhino's Iron skin needs to be recastable by default w/o it's ferrite armor having to run out first. It would mean that you either take his iron skin augment to shed his ferrite armor or you let the enemy shoot you until it strips the armor and you recast. Which isn't ideal when you're in a firefight and taking another hit will mean going down.

 

My feedback would be to change back Charge to duration based, and make Iron Skin recastable by default.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Xazur

[Monster-T]

A bit more armor wouldnt hurt (350-400 armor should be enough). But his new passive... its horrible because its not more than a funny gimmick - ist never useful. Compare this passive with Excals, Atlas or Mesas passive...
What I would like to see is that Rhinos Heavy Impact passive triggers whenever you perform a jump attack / ground slam with a heavy weapon (sometimes his passive is bugged and you can exactly do that! which is great!) and a regular weapon-buff-passive for heavy weapons.

Besides that I think his charge should scale with melee mods while keeping its new combo system. Oh, and the Ironclad Charge augment effect should be unaugmented - it should be a part of the normal skill.

Iron Skin: Of course it should be recastable without needing its augment... And remove the self damage abuse of it which shouldnt be necessary with an integrated Ironclad Charge anyway.

Roar: Should be recastable too and I would like to see something like an armor ignoring effect while Roar is actve.

Stomp: This skill is fine (besides some bugs) - but the synergy between Stomp and Charge is a bit odd. Maybe change it that Charge is doing finisher damage on stomped targets.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Monster-T

[--Q--Guther]

I am honestly not sure how I feel about Rhino's charge now being affected by range, I usually only used rhino for his buff so I added duration which also improved his charge range which was good for getting around. I could deal with a small aoe Stomp since it was only situational if I needed to CC some mobs. Also Rhino's Iron skin needs to be recastable by default w/o it's ferrite armor having to run out first. It would mean that you either take his iron skin augment to shed his ferrite armor or you let the enemy shoot you until it strips the armor and you recast. Which isn't ideal when you're in a firefight and taking another hit will mean going down.

 

My feedback would be to change back Charge to duration based, and make Iron Skin recastable by default.

Seconding charge distance to be governed by duration again.

Given that nobody can fit an overextended on rhino plus more power str to compensate, the charge range effectively caps out at 145%, severely diminishing its mobility.

Thw old charge formula lets you clear more than twice the distance with just around 150% duration.

[Zarozian]

By the will of RNGesus please explain me how the hell does aimbot help you press 1 faster or easier on your keyboard?

Why i didnt say how much armor ir reasonable its because i thin that buff isnt really needed.

Alright.

 

So you just wanna use Rhino Charge purely for mobility, is that what you're trying to say?

 

You want it to be a mobile ability only?

[Zarozian]

Acctually 3 sec absorbtion can be very useful if you use it right. I once managed to get 18k skins health in 3 sec just by standing infront of 1 eximus corpus tech of lv 80 i belive. But thats base skins health which still needs to be multiplied by armor value and no ot didnt get destroyed in next 3 sec cuz i made a great timing and charged that guy off the map just whe 3 sec passed and thus killing him. Now imagen if i woul do that with more enemies present. Just why woul you let your skin down in next 3 sec? You also have stomp and with good timing everything araund you stops shooting you after that 3 sec. And after that you wont just stand there trying to get shot so you can always get more than just 6 sec out of that absorbtion. Oh and did i mention xou can combine you ironclade charge with absorbtion? So yea its not useless if you know how. Plus you need a mod slot for that agument while you have absorbtion by default which is great.

You're kidding me right? that 3 second absorption is useless, cause it will take just another 3 seconds and a half and then that 18k is gone and your life with it.

 

Also you're sacrificing something to put in that Ironclad Charge mod on, and it's only useful if you're hitting a huge crowd of enemies which don't exist unless you are having a hard time killing them, and at that point you're practically dead before your charge even hits them.

I am really starting to doubt you play Rhino at all, if you do then you probably only play him casually.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Honestly charge isnt the biggest issue. Its low armor and a mere 3 secs of invulnerability for iron skin. Plus, rhino's passive should be increased aggro tbh.

[(PSN)IsanjiYoo]

Well let him keep his passive, but add some more flavour to it (since I feel parkour 2.0 is too clumsy on console, to fully utilies it).

Could be:

- Rhino gets X armour (or dmg reduction) wheb engaging in melee.

Or

- Rhino gets X armour (or dmg red.) when he is wielding a melee weapon.

Or/and

- Hitting an enemy in melee, provokes it (increase the risk for it to focus fire on you).

Or

X pct og max health is converted to armour when the shield is down.

[Djego27]

Tested the rino changes on a high range stomp build in T4 Interception and I have to say combined with a rakta cernos and Energy Overflow it is a absolute blast to play. Extreme mobile, massive AOE lock down and solid team support with roar.

 

Running over enemy units with rinos charge is extreme satisfying and the ability to stomp again if new units come into range to do your revive or protect other team members is glorious.

 

The only change that I think is kind of a miss is iron skin, having it not recast able still forces you to use Iron Shrapnel in any high level build and a snow globe mechanic doesn't work so well on Rino at high levels since you don't want to get shot during recasting Iron skin. The ability to recast it should be added to the skill and instead of the snow globe mechanic, it should have a something comparable to the nullifier shield mechanic, capping max damage to 20% per second, so it will hold up 5s, preventing situations where you just turn into a one hit kill, what I think is the biggest issues at high levels, even if you keep a eye on your iron skin.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Djego27

[Monster-T]

AnzeBozic: If you ask me the whole set of Rhino is defining his close combat nature. His high base stats with above average armor, his charge and his Iron Skin (especially with their augments!) are obviously created with melee/ close combat in mind - while his Roar and Stomp are more supportive; so yes and no.

Imho he is a close combat frame with strong supportive abilitys, so I find the demanding towards a heavy weapon/ shotgun passive justified and well fitting.

[Ronyn]

Fyi guys. About two or three months ago I asked Rebecca to ask the devs what rhino is supposed to be. I asked her if he was, is and will continue to be a "tank" by the designers intent. Moreover if that was the message being expressed on his video and if it is still the intended message. She confirmed that yes, rhino is meant to be a tank. Moreover she added that he is a " heavy unit meant to both take and dish out damage".

(btw guys heavy units in the military context aren't simply a reference to weight, but to intent. Like heavy weapons or heavy vehicles...refers to things like power and defense not just heft)

So we can forgo any argument that folks perception of rhinos image as a tank being based on old, outdated information.
He is supposed to be a tank right now.
If he is not living up to it we need to keep asking DE to bring him up to the right level.

Granted, some folks might think of rhino as something else and those folks may even prefer that. Some want to view him as a support frame or an all arounder. That's anyone's choice but those folks must recognize that is not what DE is going for with him. He is, in fact, meant to be a tank from the developers perspective.

As we should all know sometimes what we intend and what comes out doesn't entirely match up. So I want to help DE make rhino what they intend him to be.

 

EDIT: lol. Had some hilarious typos in there.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

For what it's worth-

Rhino armor is only above average if you count the casters and stealth frames in the mix.

But in what other game would anyone ever gauge the defensive stats of a tank against the defensive stats of the stealthers and nukers?

If you compare rhino's armor stat to the frames who are remotely supposed to be mixing it up or taking hit's it's actually below average.

 

At any rate here is why I think rhino's armor should be in the reletively high numbers.

1: It factors into the health of iron skin. Meaning it's got synergy with his powers. 

2: It makes him more resilient when iron skin is not on. This makes him less fragile when it breaks while under fire.

3: it factors in well to the games currently effective "tank meta" based around mods like rage and lifefstrike.

4: It fits the theme of his namesake and lore.

 

That's why I think armor is a great thing to raise on rhino. I'm not going to claim it solves all of his problems or that he is absolute trash without it.

Just that it's a smart thing to do.

 

Also keep in mind that while warframe has changed and certain older frames have fallen behind in their old roles...

that isn't a reason to leave them behind. Imagine if trinity was no longer a top tier healer. That would not be ok for Trinity players.

And the thing is, no matter what other healer frames they might add to warframe blessing is so effective at healing that trinity will always be very good at the job.  So why should we accept rhino no longer being a top tier tank? He doesn't necessarily have to the absolute best tank who is tougher than any other...but he very much should on par with any other tank in the game.

[Zarozian]

Oh and whats you super solution to make iron skin your "sentient fighting perfection"!? Armor buff!? I literally just explained why you dont lose ironskin in next 3 sec. I am starting to think you dont play rhino but unlike you i am not making false predictions based on others different opinions than your own. I am MR 20 player with over 70d playtime (atleast as i last checked) and over 50% usage on rhino prime, i take him everywhere basicly. An from my experienc i can say that absorbtion state can be very useful.

MR doesn't mean jack and you know this. I have 90+ days(2000hrs) of play time too and I'm willing to bet I've used my Rhino Prime way more than you. It's got 100mil experience and it's my most used frame with 200k kills on it.

And I am telling you, absorption will either be useless or broken OP, and I know about how Rhino users have been abusing that absorption with the Void defense lasers, but outside of that it's pointless and useless. It might as well just be a regular 3 second invulnerability.

Best solution would be to make it recastable without the Iron Shrapnel mod, change it's multiplier from 2.5 to 5, add more base maxiron Skin HP, or 700 armor for Rhino Prime.

[Zarozian]

Btw my usage for Rhino Prime is 63%.

Also this makes me your senior since I've been around since U6.

[(PSN)HELLHOUND_ROCKO]

many Once Dedicated Rhino Players including myself gave up on him an moved on to more Durable Frames/ Frames with far better Survivability like Loki, Valkyr, etc. because - while the Alrounder-Ness of Pre-U18/ Post-U18 Rhino P was/ is nice too, most of us choose him because we wanted to play a real Tank Frame and were willing to do the usual trade-off of giving up on greatness of Offensive Abilities for that - and there lies no shame in that.

 

but he was just far too Squishy in the only comparison that matters here: compared to some other Warframes Tankiness and Survivability.

 

so Rhino Players were often - and to some extend rightfully - seen as "noobish" as they played a Tank who can't tank really that good nor spank really that good - and we often needed to explain how we then played him for his Alrounder-Ness instead, even though most of us didn't came for that in the first place nor did most of us appreciate this state over the Tank-Role we originally picked our Rhinos for - in other words: it did hurt - and a lot of it, for a lot of us just too much to live on with it and to not move on to more Durable/ Survivable Frames for our Go-To Loadouts. 

 

so i have to say: your words feel good in my old Rhino Wound, Ronyn. 

 

and now i'm just even more excited to finally see for myself on my Platform how Tanky U18 Rhino can become with proper Self-Damage application - i here from PC Folks who REALLY mastered U18 Rhino how absurdly Tanky he can become with proper Self-Damage abusement - but regardless of the result, i still hope that they will raise Rhino Primes Armor Value a lot while changing the IS Absorption Thing into a fix (Un-Modable) 10 Seconds or-so Absorption Period where Self-Damage does not add to IS HP anymore.

 

so that finally IS gets the Chance to Scale with Enemy Level it needs, to have it's usage feeling more natural (Auto-Scale with Threat-Level instead of demanding Self-Damage after each Null-lol-ifier encounter, etc.) - and to not demand a Rhino anymore to bomb himself like a retard in order to function right... . 

 

EDIT: ooops, seems like i didn't keep up with the Spoilers right - so they took away Self-Damage abusement two days or-so ago without me noticing it - another case of where they fix helpful Desings without fixing the hindering Desings of the same thing... . 

 

so, back into the Allrounder-Niche with you Rhino, in a Game where current Valkyr, Wukong, etc. exist you have no place in the Top-Tier of Tanks... .  IT  FU*KING  HURTS!!  well, at least he's a better Allrounder now than ever..., sniff... .  :) 

Edited December 17, 2015 by (PS4)HELLHOUND_ROCKO