Rhino Changes Feedback [U18 Megathread]

[13QZXXTTX]

 

 

so, back into the Allrounder-Niche with you Rhino, in a Game where current Valkyr, Wukong, etc. exist you have no place in the Top-Tier of Tanks... .  IT  FU*KING  HURTS!!  well, at least he's a better Allrounder now than ever..., sniff... .  :) 

 

 

Maybe, but Rhino description is still inaccurate, BTW, all rounders like B-Oberon are for average game play right?

Also, labeled Rhino as newbies start tanks, because everyone start to believe and Rhino is a start tank.

 

 

      Skimming through all this topic, with all the Tennos put tons of though into this. 

But let make this clear, Rhino were never planned for high game, just a buff frames now, though he is average on tank class, does not make him great for close quarter combat. Unless you were lucky to mod him with strengths. 

      Overall, Rhino is getting degraded and balance between skills spam and some part tank. Maybe we can put Rhino and B-Oberon in the same class, the "meh" mediocre.

Conclusion is Rhino would be considered average and granted using buffing as main benefits.

 

On the side note, I see the benefits of Iron Skin while buffing allies, and not every Rhino use stomp or the same augment.

Edited December 17, 2015 by DesFrSpace

[Zarozian]

many Once Dedicated Rhino Players including myself gave up on him an moved on to more Durable Frames/ Frames with far better Survivability like Loki, Valkyr, etc. because - while the Alrounder-Ness of Pre-U18/ Post-U18 Rhino P was/ is nice too, most of us choose him because we wanted to play a real Tank Frame and were willing to do the usual trade-off of giving up on greatness of Offensive Abilities for that - and there lies no shame in that.

 

but he was just far too Squishy in the only comparison that matters here: compared to some other Warframes Tankiness and Survivability.

 

so Rhino Players were often - and to some extend rightfully - seen as "noobish" as they played a Tank who can't tank really that good nor spank really that good - and we often needed to explain how we then played him for his Alrounder-Ness instead, even though most of us didn't came for that in the first place nor did most of us appreciate this state over the Tank-Role we originally picked our Rhinos for - in other words: it did hurt - and a lot of it, for a lot of us just too much to live on with it and to not move on to more Durable/ Survivable Frames for our Go-To Loadouts. 

 

so i have to say: your words feel good in my old Rhino Wound, Ronyn. 

 

and now i'm just even more excited to finally see for myself on my Platform how Tanky U18 Rhino can become with proper Self-Damage application - i here from PC Folks who REALLY mastered U18 Rhino how absurdly Tanky he can become with proper Self-Damage abusement - but regardless of the result, i still hope that they will raise Rhino Primes Armor Value a lot while changing the IS Absorption Thing into a fix (Un-Modable) 10 Seconds or-so Absorption Period where Self-Damage does not add to IS HP anymore.

 

so that finally IS gets the Chance to Scale with Enemy Level it needs, to have it's usage feeling more natural (Auto-Scale with Threat-Level instead of demanding Self-Damage after each Null-lol-ifier encounter, etc.) - and to not demand a Rhino anymore to bomb himself like a retard in order to function right... . 

 

EDIT: ooops, seems like i didn't keep up with the Spoilers right - so they took away Self-Damage abusement two days or-so ago without me noticing it - another case of where they fix helpful Desings without fixing the hindering Desings of the same thing... . 

 

so, back into the Allrounder-Niche with you Rhino, in a Game where current Valkyr, Wukong, etc. exist you have no place in the Top-Tier of Tanks... .  IT  FU*KING  HURTS!!  well, at least he's a better Allrounder now than ever..., sniff... .  :) 

I never gave up on him and I'm not giving up now.

 

He will be the best tank in the frame again and bring the sentients down on their knees!

[lookindown]

Can we just get our rhino buffs already? Triple his current armor value and melee mod scaling on charge is all thats needed .And please moderate all the @(*()$ negativity from this thread.

[Zarozian]

Oh boy -_-

This is not about who has played more its about you being wrong when you said i dont know or play rhino. You reject everyone for who you think doesnt play rhino (and to be honest thats pretty much everyone who disagrees with you). Just because you want it to be so about rhino it doesnt mean it has to be, and you can have 99999999 hours with your rhino and it still wont be an excuse for that. Btw how are your sentients holding with these new changes in 18.1.0, still much the same?

This means my input on Rhino is more valuable as a player that cares more.

 

And I 'm saying absorption will either be useless or broken OP, and I know about how Rhino users have been abusing that absorption with the Void defense lasers, but outside of that it's pointless and useless. It might as well just be a regular 3 second invulnerability.

 

Best solution would be to make it recastable without the Iron Shrapnel mod, change it's multiplier from 2.5 to 5, add more base-max iron Skin HP, or 700 armor for Rhino Prime. 

 

Or you know? All of the above?

Can we just get our rhino buffs already? Triple his current armor value and melee mod scaling on charge is all thats needed .And please moderate all the @(*()$ negativity from this thread.

This guy gets the idea^

[Ronyn]

As for the rest i think we all agree on fact that right now rhino doesnt live up to what he used to be, what he is suppost to be and how devs see him. And there are 2 solutions to this:

1. Change his image so it would compliment him better as he is right now (you can still add new features to his abilities to feel even better and more uniqe but still keep the way they generally work)

or

2. Change the rhinos abilities more greatly (thus changing the general way they work and with that the way rhino plays compared to now) to compliment his old image better

Now i would go with 1st solution because i like the way rhino and his abilities work right now but i do understand just as well why others would go with 2nd solution but all those who would aim for rhino to be great damage eating tank must also understand that he will never be that great at it with his only damage protection ability being the 2nd one (unless if you just make it overpowered of course)

Ronyn: you say we shouldnt leave frames whose abities fell behind other frames on certain roles and bring them up to date on that role but maybe giving them another, bit different, new and maybe more unique role wouldnt be so bad at all, and only buff, in case if they became underpowered and give extra features to abilities they already have to compliment new role better and make them fresh. Also you say more armor would be good synergy for iron skin but thing is devs were working with rhinos current armor when they were tweaking this ability and this is how durable they wanted the skin to be no matter the rhinos armor, so if you want the skin to be more durable you have to convince them its underpowered, not that rhino needs more armor for that (and yes i am aware that wasnt your only reason for more armor and i dont claim its wrong that rhino should have more armor)

Also, just in case, dont mix between "ment to be" and "is", there is a fine line between these two, especially here.

Every change the dev's make is based on the current values they have at the time.

If we are going to use that as a reason not to change something then we might as well not ask for changes at all.

But we all know that getting something right often takes a few passes and a bit of iteration before it really lands where it should stay.

Like you said, there is a fine line between "meant to be" and "is"...and like I said...what we intend and what comes out does not always match up. Yes..I know exactly what I need to convince them of.

 

To put it simply, I don't think Rhino is THAT far off from being what he is meant/intended/initially built to be.

I believe with a few key changes he could live up to the designers propose for him without crossing over into overpowered.

That in mind I see no reason to try to change his image or give up on what the devs are trying to do. I see every reason to help them achieve their goal. IMO the primary problem is that Rhino is a bit too squishy both with and without iron skin on. (which is why I feel armor is the obvious first thing to increase)

 

You say that since Rhino only has one protection power so he will never be that good at protecting unless they make it OP. I disagree.

Take frost for example: he has ONE power that lets him defend an area. Snowglobe costs 50 energy (same as iron skin) and it is hyper effective at protecting a zone. Of course you might consider snowglobe OP for all I know. lol My point is one power can be a defining aspect of a frames capability. 50 energy can make all the difference.

Besides there are also other ways to ensure that a single power does a great job at something without being OP in and of itself. Power Synergy.

Example: Currently iron clad charge raises armor and in turn that armor bolsters iron skin. SO even though the high level of defense only really comes from iron skin, the proper use of iron clad charge factors in. That is great power synergy. But the problem here is that a frame/power shouldn't need an augment to do he basic job it was built for. And if DE wants to set us against level 100 enemies iron skin should be the effective tank tool for that level of play.

 

I have a lot of opinions about what makes a frame an "all arounder" as well..i think that term has become overused...

but I don't want to digress into that.

Suffice to say that I believe that the role Rhino is most poised to be is the Tank they describe in his video.

He just needs a bit of work to live up to it. It really isn't that far away.

 

EDIT:

See....

Can we just get our rhino buffs already? Triple his current armor value and melee mod scaling on charge is all thats needed 

These simple changes right here would solve most of Rhino's problems. He would be much more viable in his intended role.

And he still wouldn't push most other good frames out of their current spots on a team. He would just have a more secure one.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Ronyn

[(PSN)Crixus044]

So I've been maining Rhino P and Jat Kittag for almost a year. I can say for synergy, nobody uses Jat Kittag and Galatine better than Rhino. The Palatine Skin really pushes for that synergy. The new skin was a gift from DE God for me since Rhino's my favorite warframe and Jat Kittag is my favorite weapon and the new skin looks totally badass. I've been going into raids and endless t4 missions with this combo and it has worked well for me. The rework ensures that I can continue my playstyle and be even more effective.

 

I heard that self damage doesn't affect Iron Skin anymore which sucks bad, because I was forma'ing my angstrum for an ironskin endgame build, but that's ok since I still have the insane tank buff and added buff from Ironclad charge. Basically, rhino is even more powerful without specialized builds than before and specialized builds are sure to make him a top tier cc tank. It's the rise of the Juggernaut!!!!

[StickyBaseline]

I'm really happy with the changes, he's once again my favorite frame. The iron skin absorb is great, although I'm a bit sad that you removed self damage to it. The stomp and charge change is my favorite, charge feels great to use, it can actually deal some damage, it's great cheap cc and can cover great distance. Stomp is now fantastic CC, all around great changes.

Edited December 19, 2015 by StickyBaseline

[-AcidBeaver-i.mM.o-]

About "Iron skin".

I personaly didn't notice much of a difference beetwen old and a new one.

 

Why not make it toggleable? And instead of full damage absorb, make it a % reduction to shield and health? (kinda like a Mesa's Shatter Shield). With a drain energy per.sec mechanic.

Iron Skin that can be powered with strenght and armor mods. From base, i dont know, like 50% damage reduction, maxed (with mods) up to 90-95.

I mean, its cool to have a 4k shield or higher, and its defenetly OP on a low levels, but Vs high enemy's (60+) its not that much, and It always ends up that you start spamming 2 button on cd. Not cool.

 

Sorry if someone mentioned something like that. I did not see T_T

 

 

And about all his other abilities, I believe they totally fine.

Exept Roar, i think they should make a swap with Valkyr, some kind :3 Given him def. buffs, while Valkyr will buff atack speed AND a damage, instead of armor =\ That will make sense.

 

Anything else, like help for teammates and group play can be achieved with augments.

For example, augment on roar, which will make enemies to run away. Making him CC monster (kinda :P).

Or a stomp augment, that will send enemies to another dimension, where they will be brutally massacred by leprechauns on a unicorns.

 

 

P.S.: IMHO - nothing more, nothing less.

P.S.S.: English isnt my first language, so please excuse any mistakes.

Edited December 18, 2015 by -iMMo-NoBrainNoPain-

[lookindown]

About "Iron skin".

I personaly didn't notice much of a difference beetwen old and a new one.

 

Why not make it toggleable? And instead of full damage absorb, make it a % reduction to shield and health? (kinda like a Mesa's Shatter Shield). With a drain energy per.sec mechanic.

Iron Skin that can be powered with strenght and armor mods. From base, i dont know, like 50% damage reduction, maxed (with mods) up to 90-95.

I mean, its cool to have a 4k shield or higher, and its defenetly OP on a low levels, but Vs high enemy's (60+) its not that much, and It always ends up that you start spamming 2 button on cd. Not cool.

 

Sorry if someone mentioned something like that. I did not see T_T

 

 

And about all his other abilities, I believe they totally fine.

Exept Roar, i think they should make a swap with Valkyr, some kind :3 Given him def. buffs, while Valkyr will buff atack speed AND a damage, instead of armor =\ That will make sense.

 

Anything else, like help for teammates and group play can be achieved with augments.

For example, augment on roar, which will make enemies to run away. Making him CC monster (kinda :P).

Or a stomp augment, that will send enemies to another dimension, where they will be brutally massacred by leprechauns on a unicorns.

 

 

P.S.: IMHO - nothing more, nothing less.

P.S.S.: English isnt my first language, so please excuse any mistakes.

^ Why is this man not a part of DE staff yet?

[Zarozian]

First of you dont need to say same things twice you know but so far i figured you really like to repeat yourself. You and your political tactic.

You can predict you played rhino more than others and in most cases that could be right if what you said was truth but you still cant know how much others played rhino and you are by far not the only one who cares about rhino and no that doesnt really make you input more valuable just like that.

You do realize absorbtion can be buffed as well? By increasing duration or how much absorbed dmg is converted into health (it can be over 100%) making it not so "useless" as you say. And laser abuse can also be fixed easily, they already fixed delf-dmg abuse it wouldnt take much work to fix this one too. Another thing that would iron skin buff via armor do is make it even more of a godmode at low levels but most likely dont care about that do you?

Armor buff to Rhino Prime?

 

Someone with Rhino Prime playing in the lower levels? Like What? Jupiter where lower levels can get Valkyr?

 

Please even in the lower levels the newbies won't be able to get Rhino Prime or any of the necessary mods unless they pay plat for it, but this goes for all the frames. As far as absorption goes I highly doubt that increasing the duration or how much damage is converted into health would make it anymore useful, in fact it will still be just as useless, the only good thing would be the increased invulnerability duration, but after that's over Iron Skin will still be the same as how it was, this is why I am suggesting a straight up buff to Rhino Prime's armor. 

And note that I had to say it twice cause you ignored it the first time. It takes a few times to let it sink into your heads.

[Zarozian]

^ Why is this man not a part of DE staff yet?

Cause that's a horrible idea.

 

But it did give me some ideas for his Roar.

 

It can buff both defense and offense. 50% Damage Buff & 50% Damage Reduction~

Edited December 18, 2015 by Zarozian

[Zarozian]

Also we don't want to make Rhino just like Trinity, Valkyr, Mesa, and Chroma. His Iron Skin is what makes him unique.

[-AcidBeaver-i.mM.o-]

Also we don't want to make Rhino just like Trinity, Valkyr, Mesa, and Chroma. His Iron Skin is what makes him unique.

No one said that, i believe.

And adding "flexibility" to his builds, its not such a bad idea?

 

Aaaand you probably didnt try Nezha yet? This fella like a little Rhino, and his fire hulahoop almost indentical to iron skin (with a little differences), not so much a unique now, right?

 

What i was trying to suggest, it just a lil change to his ability mechanic, which WILL WORK (in theory :3) both for low lvls players (a newbie one), and for a top players on high missions, and well if u sayng its a "horrible idea", atleast make a point, and say why?!

Instead of just blindly increasing his parametrs or an amount of damage he can absorb with his ability.

Edited December 18, 2015 by -iMMo-NoBrainNoPain-

[Zarozian]

Oh and increasing armor would make ability so much more different hm?

So you are saying absobtion is useless no matter what even if damage convertion factor is like 500%?

And no rhino p isnt that hard to get and you also dont need the highest end builds to make rhino practicly immortal at low lvs while for most others you do already need it a bit more advance if nothing else you may start running out of energy. And i doubt they would increas rhino primes armor without also increasing normal rhinos armor (who maybe could use that since if we compare him to normal frost for example, who got his armor to his prime versions value, his stats are 100% better), much higer chance for opposite if you ask me.

Also i didnt ignore that stuff, i do belive recastability would be really good problem solver. While for armor increas its just buffing ability by increasing its numbers which i am not against unless if it becomes absolutely overpowered. Same with stats its ok as long as not clearly overpowered. Just how much is overpowered is a really damn good question.

 

Lol you do realize the iron skin is the ability that makes rhino more like those frames right? If you want to make him stand out from those frames then just remove iron skin and replace it with new non-protective ability. Trust me you will soon feel the difference.

You know what's ironic?

 

Another player argued that it would be too huge of a change to buff armor.

 

And you're arguing that it wouldn't make much of a difference.

 

Also your idea of making absorption work like that is still pointless or broken. If they were to add a multiplier to it, it would be too OP and abused and it would be useless at the same time when there aren't any mobs attacking and it's just iron skin itself. Adding 700 armor is enough to make the Iron Skin more than enough and the endgame builds will do the rest.

 

If we follow your idea and make Iron Skin like that, then the endgame builds won't matter at all and regular Rhinos will be just as OP.  And what do you mean Rhino Prime isn't that much harder to get? Have you remembered the first time you farmed Rhino Prime? Did you forget how long it took to get those chassis? Either way the Prime version should be better. Also regular Frost is a lot harder to get than regular Rhino cause it's a lot farther away, but with the Prime version it's about equal with all the other primes.

 

Iron Skin doesn't make Rhino like Chroma, Valkyr, and Mesa. 

 

You probably meant to say Iron Skin makes him a tank.

 

Also an increase to armor is clearly the best solution so far for his Iron Skin. 700 armor.

 

 

No one said that, i believe.

And adding "flexibility" to his builds, its not such a bad idea?

 

Aaaand you probably didnt try Nezha yet? This fella like a little Rhino, and his fire hulahoop almost indentical to iron skin (with a little differences), not so much a unique now, right?

 

What i was trying to suggest, it just a lil change to his ability mechanic, which WILL WORK (in theory :3) both for low lvls players (a newbie one), and for a top players on high missions, and well if u sayng its a "horrible idea", atleast make a point, and say why?!

Instead of just blindly increasing his parametrs or an amount of damage he can absorb with his ability.

I gave you that upvote by accident until I realize what you were trying to do, the whole point of having Iron Skin the way it is now is so that Rhino isn't affected by any procs or knockdowns, and doesn't take direct damage. Also his armor affects the Iron Skin's HP and Iron Skin's HP is based off of Ferrite Armor. Your idea won't work as it is applied on shields and health which is much more fragile and will make him exactly like much weaker version of Chroma, Trinity, or Valkyr. Also another beneficial factor of Iron Skin is that it replenishes itself when cast. Your idea would destroy that and it will be far worse, your idea would be considered a huge nerf.

 

I am sorry for upvoting your post. =/ But it really is a bad idea.

[-AcidBeaver-i.mM.o-]

I gave you that upvote by accident until I realize what you were trying to do, the whole point of having Iron Skin the way it is now is so that Rhino isn't affected by any procs or knockdowns, and doesn't take direct damage. Also his armor affects the Iron Skin's HP and Iron Skin's HP is based off of Ferrite Armor. Your idea won't work as it is applied on shields and health which is much more fragile and will make him exactly like much weaker version of Chroma, Trinity, or Valkyr. Also another beneficial factor of Iron Skin is that it replenishes itself when cast. Your idea would destroy that and it will be far worse, your idea would be considered a huge nerf.

 

I am sorry for upvoting your post. =/ But it really is a bad idea.

Well thats awkward. Ok, I upvoted your too, now we are even :3

 

After this i clearly dont know what kinda of a game re u playng, can u please tell me WHAT game mode or where are u usually farm/runs etc??

 

Because from my daily experience (Trials, T4 farm and high lvl locations) Trinity with her blessing (80%+) and mesa with 95% damage reductions are a freaking tankish warframes right now.

And the main fact dmg reductions is WORKING!

While Rhino with his "Absorb shield thing" is NOT! The fact what i can Survive 2-3 shots from corrupted bombard (60+ lvl) before my iron skin is dead is what forcing me to take another frame, couse u know, its not what you expect to see from "tough character", surviving a few more shots from an enemy, naaaah....

Sooo "much more fragile" point? Guess not.

 

And about "beneficial factor", weeeeeeell i believe Rhino should be a desent tankish person, but not some OP character. Like an old school gamer myself, NEVER EVER liked ideas of "Press X to win".

 

For example to what im trying to put on a table: Rhino with maxed strength and armor mods will be able to reach 99% reduction with a more energy.per.sec drain efficiency.

Will he be a proper tank that way? Most likely!

Will he be OP that way? No, because he will need ALOT of energy replenishing and clearly you will need to move your ! around.

And to on top of that, he will need mods for shield and health even more, because damage reduction thing, not some ARMOR that is blocking incoming damage entirely.

 

So basicly the new players, with basic mods (no maxed redirection from start) will still need to put some effort to the gameplay.

While old player can simply mixing mods and tryng to create a build (experimenting) what will suits this exact mission (like do you need 99% red. OR you will be okay with just a 70% and range mods for stomp OR you planning some fast capture mission and u dont need that much of a protection and instead you install some speed mods).

 

AND OFCOUSE I DIDNT SAY THAT HIS IMMUNITY TO PROCS AND KNOCKDOWNS SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM IRON SKIN(thats was a crazy quess from you).

 

 

And in the end what do you suggest? A mere buff? 700 armor? increased multiplier? Or even more Base health to the Iron skin?

What he will achieve from that? You will be able to faceroll low location even easier than it is now (which is almost what Rhino doing right now anyway). And will it help on "high ground"? You will handle few more shots from enemies before ur skill is dead and u will need to recast it, AND NOTHING MORE!!

 

And yet again.

P.S.: IMHO - nothing more, nothing less.

P.S.S.: English isnt my first language, so please excuse any mistakes.

Edited December 19, 2015 by -iMMo-NoBrainNoPain-

[lookindown]

Well , everyone has different ideas on how to improve rhino. But OVERALL , we can all agree that he still needs some buffs/work to become a top tier frame!

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Rhino is pretty tough now, but needs more armor...at least 425

[Monster-T]

Rhino is pretty tough now, but needs more armor...at least 425

425 armor sounds reasonable. The suggested 700 armor from Zerozian are a bit too much.

[Zarozian]

Rhino is pretty tough now, but needs more armor...at least 425

 

425 armor sounds reasonable. The suggested 700 armor from Zerozian are a bit too much.

 

I've done the math. It's not too much at all.

 

With a maxed Steel Fiber we will get 1470 Armor, which means we'll scale really well against any level 100+ mobs when we're built for endgame.

 

And don't worry only those with all the correct mods at maximum and the right build would achieve that sort of power, those who are only recently getting Rhino Prime or Rhino will still receive a challenge.

[Zarozian]

Not only that but 700 Armor also allows for more versatility to those who don't want to keep a maxed Steel Fiber mod or any power strength and efficiency mod on and allow them to go full duration and power range without having to worry about falling back severely in tankiness, and allow those who want to get all out on being tanky while sacrificing everything else for it, to be able to achieve that.

 

Trust me with this guys.

[(PSN)NoVa_Erk]

My question now!

IRON SKIN: i saw a bug or glitch or something else in a video and i did it on ps4.

I casted iron skin ant i know after recast the health will increase of the ferrit 3 seconds after casting. So i casted it took out my hikous equipped with cons... explosive or something and shot in this 3 seconds under my feets and made an amazing healthcharge of 16000 ferrit by myself.

My question now. Does it is a bug or glitch or is it normal that i can Charge myself by my own weapons?

[Monster-T]

My question now!

IRON SKIN: i saw a bug or glitch or something else in a video and i did it on ps4.

I casted iron skin ant i know after recast the health will increase of the ferrit 3 seconds after casting. So i casted it took out my hikous equipped with cons... explosive or something and shot in this 3 seconds under my feets and made an amazing healthcharge of 16000 ferrit by myself.

My question now. Does it is a bug or glitch or is it normal that i can Charge myself by my own weapons?

This is an unintended feature. Should be fixed in the next patch.

[BladesStorm]

iron skin has a visual bug ? it looks different and terrible , when i get the bundle the iron skin was silver

[jinsaotomex4]

iron skin has a visual bug ? it looks different and terrible , when i get the bundle the iron skin was silver

If you mean the Palatine skin, you can color the iron skin effect based on the energy color you pick. 

[(PSN)NoVa_Erk]

I found 3 .. i say glitches in it.

1. He can stack his iron skin with explosive weapons by himself (example hikous with explosive mod)

2. He can stack over 1.5kkk - 3kkk health with lazers if u are in them (especially in the cryopod lazers cicle)

3. He can be stacked if he has mates who are aiming him. U need to get a radiation proc from lasers while u have a proc u activate ironskin and all ur mates are gonna shoot the hell on u and look 150k health added to ironskin!

Is that a bug or glitch or is that in its abolities to stack like a god?