Anti-One-Shot Mechanics.

[Maicael]

If I'm understanding all this correctly(and I may not be), then this shield gate that's being proposed sounds like it may make Redirection obsolete. I see shields as a way to protect your health that easily regenerates, and as Warframe is right now, having the maximum shields is the way to go. If the shield gate was implemented to prevent damage to health on a high-damage shot, then what purpose would Redirection have? Wouldn't you then want to just go with shield regen mods to decrease the time before shields start to regen?

 

Unless I misunderstood and the shield gate only occurs on hits that would be oneshot-to-death.

 

As others have mentioned you're rarely going up against one of the enemy types that would oneshot you, and the Bombards knock you down exposing you to much more unavoidable damage.

 

I think the brief "immortality" with a cooldown would be the way to go and taking the damage to shields and health down to the 1 or 2 that OP suggested. You'd still be screwed if you had a slash proc that lasted longer than the immortality. The immortality should only last the length of time that it takes a Warframe to get up from being knocked down and roll once to give them a chance to get away(unless you make the immortality ignore knockdowns/status effects so that you can remain moving, then it could be even shorter).

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Ah i see. I'm not that familiar with Borderlands so i was wondering. A shield gate definitely sounds better than a health gate.

 

 

The revive system and a anti-oneshot mechanic doesn't correlate in the way you're looking at it. Our revives refill after failing a mission or leaving because it was a cashgrab that penalized new/ignorant players.

 

A shield gate is about enriching gameplay by removing oneshot kills and allowing players to react accordingly to multiple high damage enemies. The fact that oneshot kills exist is a reason players place so much importance and strong preference on specific frames.

 

- Quick Thinking acts as a health gate but drains energy for it's effect. It doesn't need a change and won't be broken with a shield gate.

 

- Manics and Sentients(new faction expect changes) are completely irrelevant to the topic.

 

- No to any form of shield-gate mod for frames or companions, It would be a bandaid to a necessary change to shield functions. 

 

- Giving only one frame a shield gate via augment wouldn't be a smart decision at all. It would place importance and preference on that frame for high level enemies. All frames should be a valid choice for surviving - with or without CC.

 

- Team shield restores, Blessing, Shield Polarize, Protect, Guardian, and any form of shield restoration wouldn't refresh a shield gate mechanic if the gating effect had a cooldown like ME3.

 

- Abilities that make a frame virtually immortal could disable the shield gate and place it on cooldown to keep it balanced.

Having a Shield-gate default mechanic that gets disabled on frames that can now be made virtually Immortal would just be the 'revolving door' for wanting only specific frames.

If the Shield-gate has a coold-down mechanic than it wouldn't remove Enemy 1-shots because it would be that a player got 1-shotted while cool down is in effect.

On the Contrary current Hysteria effect where damage is delayed would be negated by Shield-gate mechanic as long as Hysteria duration was longer than cooldown period.

Same with Self-harm 99% DR Blessing.

What is the limit of survivability that all frames should be able sustain?

Should all frames be viable to just stand AFK and not die from a mob of lvl 500 Juggernaut Behemoths?

If just a few Warframe can survive such an on-slaught do they automatically go on the 'list' of preferred or only viable high-level Warframe?

(As for Revives/One-shots not correlating : in my experience on PS4 when LoR came people just quit for the day because the frame they needed/wanted to use had no more revives....mainly due to getting one-shotted during the missions.

If the same Revive system was in place - would Sorties have the same completion rate where they are limited to a level 30 Warframe and can only go down a set number of times?

I see the revives and 1-shot mechanic as being supplemental for the missions in which someone would most likely need a revive because they were 1-shot)

Why is it okay for there to be a Health-gate Mod (Quick-thinking) but Shield-gate should be mandatory universal mechanic for all?

Why would something deemed as 'necessary' function to how Shields function be disabled because it hugely benefits a few Warframe abilities....doesn't that mean it only needed on some and not all current Warframe?

[EmptyDevil]

Having a Shield-gate default mechanic that gets disabled on frames that can now be made virtually Immortal would just be the 'revolving door' for wanting only specific frames.

 

No, it does not. What you just said made literally no sense. If those frames can toggle something like Hysteria or Defy, they don't need an extra layer of protection. You really don't need someone to break it down to you.

 

If the Shield-gate has a coold-down mechanic than it wouldn't remove Enemy 1-shots because it would be that a player got 1-shotted while cool down is in effect.

On the Contrary current Hysteria effect where damage is delayed would be negated by Shield-gate mechanic as long as Hysteria duration was longer than cooldown period.

Same with Self-harm 99% DR Blessing.

 

The cooldown would apply to the invulnerability period. Here are some scenarios for you:

 

Scenario 1

 

Your Warframe has 300300

 

You get shot by a bullet that deals 400 damage.

 

You are left with 0300.

 

Another bullet dealing 400 damage hits you but you don't take damage for 1.0 seconds. The 1.0 second invulnerability goes into cooldown for 10 seconds.

 

Your shields have not regenerated yet.

 

During that 10 second period a third bullet hits you.

 

You are left with 00 which results in your death.

 

Scenario 2

 

Your Warframe has 300300

 

You get shot by a bullet that deals 400 damage.

 

You are left with 0300.

 

Another bullet dealing 400 damage hits you but you don't take damage for 1.0 seconds. The 1.0 second invulnerability goes into cooldown for 10 seconds.

 

Your shields regenerated.

 

During that 10 second period a third bullet hits you.

 

You are left with 0300 (Your gate is still in effect to protect you from damage bleeding over into health).

 

You are immediately shot with another round but your invulnerability is on cooldown. You die instantly.

 

This scenario is a combination of 2 shield gate functions to show how it would protect against all oneshot kills while remaining balanced.

 

 

On the Contrary current Hysteria effect where damage is delayed would be negated by Shield-gate mechanic as long as Hysteria duration was longer than cooldown period.

Same with Self-harm 99% DR Blessing.

 

You misinterpreted the whole point of certain abilities disabling the gate and placing it into a cooldown. Here is another example for you:

 

Example 1

 

- Valkyr uses Hysteria.

 

- Valkyr's shield collapse invulnerability is flagged as active for the duration of hysteria(since she doesn't take damage while it's active).

 

- Valkyr toggles Hysteria off.

 

- Valkyr's shield collapse invulnerability immediately goes into cooldown. She does not get the 1.0 seconds of protection for 10 seconds because of using Hysteria.

 

- Valkyr takes health damage as normal.

 

Example 2

 

- Wukong uses Defy.

 

- Wukong's shield gate protecting from damage bleeding over and health invulnerability are immediately disabled(Wukong has an amazing efficient health gate, so this is fair).

 

- Wukong toggles Defy off.

 

- Wukong's shield gate protecting from damage bleeding over into health is immediately reinstated.

 

- His shield collapse invulnerability immediately goes into cooldown.

 

Example 2 may apply to self-damage reduction abilities too.

 

 

What is the limit of survivability that all frames should be able sustain?

Should all frames be viable to just stand AFK and not die from a mob of lvl 500 Juggernaut Behemoths?

If just a few Warframe can survive such an on-slaught do they automatically go on the 'list' of preferred or only viable high-level Warframe?

 

 

Using an incredibly uncommon enemy that spawns at that level in the simulacrum doesn't support your argument.

 

Also, a shield gate would not make any frame capable to doing what Hysteria or Defy can allow. Refrain from using strawman tactics if you are unable to properly argue against a shield gate.

 

 

(As for Revives/One-shots not correlating : in my experience on PS4 when LoR came people just quit for the day because the frame they needed/wanted to use had no more revives....mainly due to getting one-shotted during the missions.

 

 

You're helping my argument with this statement. That person would have never end up in that situation if it weren't for oneshot kills being a thing. The revives refilling after a mission was a necessary change but in no way is it an excuse for oneshot kills to remain. That is what i feel you are trying to say, is it not?

 

 

Why is it okay for there to be a Health-gate Mod (Quick-thinking) but Shield-gate should be mandatory universal mechanic for all?

 

Quick Thinking protects you from death by saving your last remaining health with your energy pool. This effect lasts as long as you feed yourself with energy. Health is affected by a stat - armor. It can also be attacked directly via slash procs or toxin-based attacks and procs. Health is the most important stat of a Warframe. The Quick Thinking mod is justified.

 

Shields have no stat to influence it's damage reduction and it's purpose is to protect health. Shields do not effectively protect health because their is no damage buffer between the two. All damage steadily flows into your health from shields, as if there is nothing to differentiate them from each other besides color and the ability to regen. As shields are now, it is a weaker portion of your health that can regenerate after 3 seconds - it might as well be colored red.

 

A shield gate mod would be a bandaid and clutter the mod system with a feature that should be innate to all player shields. It's comparable to when Warframe abilities use to be mods but thankfully got changed to being built in.

[Bobtm]

That's called a shield gate iirc.

It's a good mechanic.

It worked in borderlands at least.

 

One of the only mechanics that were actually balanced.

 

The health gate mechanics in Borderlands are effectively swill, a genuinely broken mechanic that was taken too far.  This mechanic was present in the first game, but only as a background thing which you barely noticed (Craw and suicide bomb foes were all that kicked it), then taking center stage in the second installment.  Mechanics of such a nature as that were borderline exploits and only served to pave the way for a worsening and worsening balancing scale.  The health gating (which became prevalent in BL2) was the core of that game's abysmal balance skew along with a quadratic scaling model among other issues.

____________________

 

Anyways one game's failed attempt at a mechanic doesn't mean all attempts will result in the same failures.  A shield or health gate based mechanic is an intriguing idea, but there are a lot of holes that need to be looked into.  Going the initial route suggested by Epsik-Kun in the first post has the issue in that it heavily rewards Trinity by allowing infinite invulnerability through utilization of Blessing, so that concept immediately won't work.  Allowing a cheese strategy to exist means that it will become meta and it will blow up the semblance of implied challenge which content is meant to provide.  This in turn will lead to either the mechanic being dismantled or the problem (in this case Blessing) being re-imagined.

 

On the shield gate route though, it's a little different.  Now such a thing still couldn't allow HP to be dropped to near zero, otherwise it opens the door for everyone's favorite lobster to run amok.  Finding the right way to implement such a mechanic is a tricky one.  It's not something I have an answer for either, as it's tricky.  The reason this is the case is due to the whole picture with Warframe currently.  Once you're in that realm of play where foes can vaporize your EHP in moments you're there constantly, and with more than a handful of foes.  A cooldown long enough to prevent abuse on a gate mechanic would be nigh on useless, because you're likely to be one-shotted again if you're at a point where you were one-shotted in the first place.  The cooldown is too short and the gate opens the door too wide for exploit level shenanigans.  That said it could be made to work, but finding that right answer won't be easy.

 

Another issue with a shield gating system is that it interferes with the companion mods which instantly refill a player's shield upon depletion.  Of course this is one where finding an answer is much easier, but it's still a thing to keep in mind.

 

Shields have no stat to influence it's damage reduction and it's purpose is to protect health. Shields do not effectively protect health because their is no damage buffer between the two. All damage steadily flows into your health from shields, as if there is nothing to differentiate them from each other besides color and the ability to regen. As shields are now, it is a weaker portion of your health that can regenerate after 3 seconds - it might as well be colored red.

 

On the note of your overall post, assuming I understand it correctly, I generally agree with the points you've provided.  Just figured I'd make note of that before anything else.

 

However I don't agree with this particular portion I quoted above.  Shielding and Health are quite able to be differentiated by the things you've noted atop the most important one of all;  When shielding runs dry you are alive, when Health is gone you're done.  While you're right that shielding isn't impacted by the innate value of Armor, that doesn't make it objectively the weaker of the two like you imply.  Aside of running an armor based frame like Valkyr or Chroma, shielding is the stronger value between the two overall because it hosts more total advantageous mechanics.

 

Sources of healing in Warframe aren't overly prevalent, rather they're fairly lacking.  As such having a pool which endlessly will regenerate itself to full without hindrance is an incredible boon.  Beyond this there are companion mods which (with a cooldown) can instantly max a shield to full once it's dipped to 0.  Against level 100-120 foes one's base shielding and health (no Redirection or Vitality) alongside companion mods, and good ol' fashioned CC and actual personal evasion is enough to get by without going belly up, as long as you keep active constantly and defensively.

 

A big reason that entry level shielding value holds up so well is because of it being effected (alike health) by any over-arching damage resistance variable.  The most common among these is of course a dodge roll.  A T4 Bombard's rocket won't even break an unmodded Equinox Shield if you roll when the hit lands.  Being able to apply that level of defensive strength to a continually regenerating pool is incredibly potent.  Rolling to mitigate HP damage too is a great boon, but over time said damage will still kill the player.  Shielding can be damaged an endless number of times, without ever incurring any major issue so long as your health remains intact.

[EmptyDevil]

However I don't agree with this particular portion I quoted above.  Shielding and Health are quite able to be differentiated by the things you've noted atop the most important one of all;  When shielding runs dry you are alive, when Health is gone you're done.  

 

You're ignoring an important part of my statement. Shields running out not resulting in death and the fact that it has no damage buffer between health, is why i say it might as well be colored red to mark it as health. The damage taken by shields steadily flows into our health as if they were the same thing.

 

 

Sources of healing in Warframe aren't overly prevalent, rather they're fairly lacking.  As such having a pool which endlessly will regenerate itself to full without hindrance is an incredible boon.  Beyond this there are companion mods which (with a cooldown) can instantly max a shield to full once it's dipped to 0. 

 

The fact that healing isn't overly prevalent is another reason our shields should protect us from onehit kills. I agree that it's regeneration is excellent but, It's regeneration as a great benefit becomes moot if it can't prevent onehit kills at least. 

 

 

Against level 100-120 foes one's base shielding and health (no Redirection or Vitality) alongside companion mods, and good ol' fashioned CC and actual personal evasion is enough to get by without going belly up, as long as you keep active constantly and defensively.

 

I respectfully disagree with this because it is another exact reason as to why we need a gate. Almost certainly in this case you absolutely need a CC ability to spam in this situation. You must play defensively and avoid all damage(virtually impossible). These kind of situations create preference and puts more importance on using certain Warframes with very specific set ups or builds.

 

 

A big reason that entry level shielding value holds up so well is because of it being effected (alike health) by any over-arching damage resistance variable.  The most common among these is of course a dodge roll.  A T4 Bombard's rocket won't even break an unmodded Equinox Shield if you roll when the hit lands.  Being able to apply that level of defensive strength to a continually regenerating pool is incredibly potent.  Rolling to mitigate HP damage too is a great boon, but over time said damage will still kill the player.  Shielding can be damaged an endless number of times, without ever incurring any major issue so long as your health remains intact.

 

 

If we take the fire rate of this enemy into account and the number of enemies that is generally present, the damage reduction via rolling simply becomes a way to delay our inevitable death. We are at the mercy of our ability to mass CC if applicable or to kill all enemies before you take lethal damage.

 

 

Shields still ultimately need to prevent large amounts of damage from bleeding over into our health, especially if it's enough to obliterate the remaining shields and damage our health at the same time.

Edited December 23, 2015 by EmptyDevil

[Ziegrif]

+1 for gates.

Akin to EmptyDevil.

 

Shield Recharge mods would finally get an actual use.

And I could go willy nilly and rely on my gates to keep me alive.

ME3MP was some good times.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Ziegrif

[SlightVect]

Or just use Quick Thinking. Modding and using warframe abilities are all part of survival. Tower 4 missions in particular are where enemies definitely do more damage, but people seem to pull through just fine.

>Get hit hard

>Lose energy

>Live with 2 hp

>Happy days I li--

>Forced stagger proc

>Dead

Nah, I'm good. Rather not waste 15 points to delay the inevitable. 

 

@op.

I'm behind the idea but I think our HP should take a decent hit. Not crazy like 90% but maybe 60% or so. I think just losing our shield doesn't give the same threat as seeing our HP chunked. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Pometheus

[Inarticulate]

Op's is also called shield gating. I know he says it's from Borderlands but Mass Effect 3 also has one similar i think.

 

This concept has existed since forever. From my own gaming history, both of the games in the Mabinogi universe (and the original Mabinogi is ancient) use a variant of the system.

 

 

I don't think it makes sense in Warframe to have health invulnerability after you lose your shields, but I think it makes sense to at least prevent damage to your shields from bleeding over to your health. On the other hand, I'd rather this not be applied to enemies because this would make the Corpus even more annoying beyond belief.

 

 

 

It brought quite a weird way of playing though, which is resulted in lowering you maximum HP to an absurdly low number (like having 500 hp against enemies that deal several thousands of damage with every shot) and life-stealing all the time.

And, given Warframe has few sources of lifesteal or quick healing, doing exactly the same thing might result in the same weirdness.

 

Off-topic, but funny you say this because this is exactly how Mabinogi played, minus the ability to be temporarily invincible. The only difference was that you were forced to play like this because endgame bosses simply had attacks that did 10 to 100 times as much damage as you had health, and this was with as much health as you could get.

[Epsik-kun]

I'm behind the idea but I think our HP should take a decent hit.

Not to be rude, but why no one reads things I write? Actually I never ever suggested HP not getting damaged. I suggested "being unable to die for like a half of a second" when shields go down. No damage resistance/immunity what so ever.

I don't want to be immortal. I just want a fair chance to save my !, when three missiles of newly spawned Bombards hit me in the place I wanna save.

 

The point is, only removing overflow damage without getting death immunity will accomplish almost nothing. Getting a brief moment of being unable to die will give you a small chance to do something (more like it might save you, if you already are doing something). The way Warframe works, you need this brief moment to the system to even have a meaning.

The basic idea I had about being one-shotted is:

You have, we say, a half of a second and 1 HP. If your time is up, you didn't manage to heal yourself somehow and you are still under fire - you are dead. You have slash or toxic status on you? You are dead. You only get a small chance. But at least you get something, which is much better than nothing.

And if after it is implemented (assuming it is) we might think - should we make it more powerful by adding some protection from overflowing damage/removing DoT procs/etc.

 

Also, it won't make Trin more powerful and relevant compared to what we have now. It's simply impossible to make most powerful and always relevant squad-oriented frame more relevant. But still, if Bless spam giving you even more surviveability than it does now (which is pretty close to invincibility anyway) there's simple solution of putting a small cooldown on the whole gate thing as it was suggested before. Even 2 seconds will do.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Epsik-kun

[EmptyDevil]

This concept has existed since forever. From my own gaming history, both of the games in the Mabinogi universe (and the original Mabinogi is ancient) use a variant of the system.

 

 

I don't think it makes sense in Warframe to have health invulnerability after you lose your shields, but I think it makes sense to at least prevent damage to your shields from bleeding over to your health. On the other hand, I'd rather this not be applied to enemies because this would make the Corpus even more annoying beyond belief.

 

I already know the concept has been present for awhile. The function of shield gating tends to vary in different games. I played Mabinogi as well and i agree that Mana Shield is a shield with a shield gate.

 

It depends on the game for whether or not it should provide the player with an incredibly small window of invulnerability. Warframe's intense hordes and enemy potential to oneshot players seem like it needs both.

 

This thread is about giving only the players a shield gate, not the enemy factions. It would be absolutely horrible on enemies because of their large amounts of health/shields.

[Epsik-kun]

This thread is about giving only the players a shield gate, not the enemy factions. It would be absolutely horrible on enemies because of their large amounts of health/shields.

I actually won't be against Shield Gate on Corpus units, if they'll have some cooldown on it too.

[EmptyDevil]

I actually won't be against Shield Gate on Corpus units, if they'll have some cooldown on it too.

 

Their infinitely scaling damage, health, and shields would make it broken on enemies. Some of their units also have Proto-shields which is generally harder to break. I really don't think enemies need a shield gate, especially the Corpus. It would have to be a very long cooldown for them.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Not to be rude, but why no one reads things I write? Actually I never ever suggested HP not getting damaged. I suggested "being unable to die for like a half of a second" when shields go down. No damage resistance/immunity what so ever.

I don't want to be immortal. I just want a fair chance to save my !, when three missiles of newly spawned Bombards hit me in the place I wanna save.

The point is, only removing overflow damage without getting death immunity will accomplish almost nothing. Getting a brief moment of being unable to die will give you a small chance to do something (more like it might save you, if you already are doing something). The way Warframe works, you need this brief moment to the system to even have a meaning.

The basic idea I had about being one-shotted is:

You have, we say, a half of a second and 1 HP. If your time is up, you didn't manage to heal yourself somehow and you are still under fire - you are dead. You have slash or toxic status on you? You are dead. You only get a small chance. But at least you get something, which is much better than nothing.

And if after it is implemented (assuming it is) we might think - should we make it more powerful by adding some protection from overflowing damage/removing DoT procs/etc.

Also, it won't make Trin more powerful and relevant compared to what we have now. It's simply impossible to make most powerful and always relevant squad-oriented frame more relevant. But still, if Bless spam giving you even more surviveability than it does now (which is pretty close to invincibility anyway) there's simple solution of putting a small cooldown on the whole gate thing as it was suggested before. Even 2 seconds will do.

No, it does not. What you just said made literally no sense. If those frames can toggle something like Hysteria or Defy, they don't need an extra layer of protection. You really don't need someone to break it down to you.

The cooldown would apply to the invulnerability period. Here are some scenarios for you:

Scenario 1

Your Warframe has 300300

You get shot by a bullet that deals 400 damage.

You are left with 0300.

Another bullet dealing 400 damage hits you but you don't take damage for 1.0 seconds. The 1.0 second invulnerability goes into cooldown for 10 seconds.

Your shields have not regenerated yet.

During that 10 second period a third bullet hits you.

You are left with 00 which results in your death.

Scenario 2

Your Warframe has 300300

You get shot by a bullet that deals 400 damage.

You are left with 0300.

Another bullet dealing 400 damage hits you but you don't take damage for 1.0 seconds. The 1.0 second invulnerability goes into cooldown for 10 seconds.

Your shields regenerated.

During that 10 second period a third bullet hits you.

You are left with 0300 (Your gate is still in effect to protect you from damage bleeding over into health).

You are immediately shot with another round but your invulnerability is on cooldown. You die instantly.

This scenario is a combination of 2 shield gate functions to show how it would protect against all oneshot kills while remaining balanced.

You misinterpreted the whole point of certain abilities disabling the gate and placing it into a cooldown. Here is another example for you:

Example 1

- Valkyr uses Hysteria.

- Valkyr's shield collapse invulnerability is flagged as active for the duration of hysteria(since she doesn't take damage while it's active).

- Valkyr toggles Hysteria off.

- Valkyr's shield collapse invulnerability immediately goes into cooldown. She does not get the 1.0 seconds of protection for 10 seconds because of using Hysteria.

- Valkyr takes health damage as normal.

Example 2

- Wukong uses Defy.

- Wukong's shield gate protecting from damage bleeding over and health invulnerability are immediately disabled(Wukong has an amazing efficient health gate, so this is fair).

- Wukong toggles Defy off.

- Wukong's shield gate protecting from damage bleeding over into health is immediately reinstated.

- His shield collapse invulnerability immediately goes into cooldown.

Example 2 may apply to self-damage reduction abilities too.

Using an incredibly uncommon enemy that spawns at that level in the simulacrum doesn't support your argument.

Also, a shield gate would not make any frame capable to doing what Hysteria or Defy can allow. Refrain from using strawman tactics if you are unable to properly argue against a shield gate.

You're helping my argument with this statement. That person would have never end up in that situation if it weren't for oneshot kills being a thing. The revives refilling after a mission was a necessary change but in no way is it an excuse for oneshot kills to remain. That is what i feel you are trying to say, is it not?

Quick Thinking protects you from death by saving your last remaining health with your energy pool. This effect lasts as long as you feed yourself with energy. Health is affected by a stat - armor. It can also be attacked directly via slash procs or toxin-based attacks and procs. Health is the most important stat of a Warframe. The Quick Thinking mod is justified.

Shields have no stat to influence it's damage reduction and it's purpose is to protect health. Shields do not effectively protect health because their is no damage buffer between the two. All damage steadily flows into your health from shields, as if there is nothing to differentiate them from each other besides color and the ability to regen. As shields are now, it is a weaker portion of your health that can regenerate after 3 seconds - it might as well be colored red.

A shield gate mod would be a bandaid and clutter the mod system with a feature that should be innate to all player shields. It's comparable to when Warframe abilities use to be mods but thankfully got changed to being built in.

Let me rephrase, after reading othe comments: it still looks like a mechanic that would only be useful on some Frames.

You want the Shield-gate mechanic to function differently from the 'Shield Regen once depleted mechanic'

Otherwise we have the same issue of Shield Polarize, Mend, Protect, Guardian, Arcane Barrier, Blessing, Electric Chroma etc... Abusing the mechanic to remain Invincible

So Shield Gate Cooldown ≠ Shield Recharge/restore

Shields get Damage Mitigation protection that is better than Armor on Health no Toxin/nor Armror Ignore Bleed Procs drain Shields:

Mirage Eclipse, Trinity Blessing & Link, Mesa Shattered Shield

If abilities that provide a Defensive workaround that is non-CC to prevent 1-shot are in play is going to disable Shield Gate Mechanic:

Then I still see the issue where a Trinity with Blessing just put whole squad/group on Shield Gate Cooldown: Then Trinity gets nullified or dispelled because of a pit : Players still get 1-shot because Shield Mechanic was removed because of Blessing being active on them.

Iron Skin and Snow Globe could be looked at as being the same where players were protected by to not be 1-shot thus the Shield Cooldown mechanic is in play.

Hysteria can still have Shields depleted via Paralysis, but if dispelled (pit/Nullifier) she will still get 1-shotted because of Shield Gate Cooldown.

The issue with Players being able to die with 0-health and plenty of Shields: should have been addressed long ago to make Shields a worthwhile investment.

(I fully support if you have any Shields it should prevent you from dying with 0 health)

Toxin and Armor-ignore Bleed Procs can diminish health quickly

Viral Stacking via HIVE clouds straight kill-glitches a player if they run Quick-thinking as the game does not have the Energy-Health and just depletes normal health to Zero.

My issue is you say Shield Gate Mechanic is needed - but then the Frames that can bypass being 1-shot shouldn't get the Shield-gate mechanic. So it seems like this "needed mechanic" is only for some Warframes.

All Warframes can benefit from *Not Dying with Some Shields and Zero Health*

Edited December 23, 2015 by (PS4)MrNishi

[EmptyDevil]

  

Let me rephrase, after reading othe comments: it still looks like a mechanic that would only be useful on some Frames.

You want the Shield-gate mechanic to function differently from the 'Shield Regen once depleted mechanic'

Otherwise we have the same issue of Shield Polarize, Mend, Protect, Guardian, Arcane Barrier, Blessing, Electric Chroma etc... Abusing the mechanic to remain Invincible

So Shield Gate Cooldown ≠ Shield Recharge/restore

Shields get Damage Mitigation protection that is better than Armor on Health no Toxin/nor Armror Ignore Bleed Procs drain Shields:

Mirage Eclipse, Trinity Blessing & Link, Mesa Shattered Shield

If abilities that provide a Defensive workaround that is non-CC to prevent 1-shot are in play is going to disable Shield Gate Mechanic:

Then I still see the issue where a Trinity with Blessing just put whole squad/group on Shield Gate Cooldown: Then Trinity gets nullified or dispelled because of a pit : Players still get 1-shot because Shield Mechanic was removed because of Blessing being active on them.

Iron Skin and Snow Globe could be looked at as being the same where players were protected by to not be 1-shot thus the Shield Cooldown mechanic is in play.

Hysteria can still have Shields depleted via Paralysis, but if dispelled (pit/Nullifier) she will still get 1-shotted because of Shield Gate Cooldown.

The issue with Players being able to die with 0-health and plenty of Shields: should have been addressed long ago to make Shields a worthwhile investment.

(I fully support if you have any Shields it should prevent you from dying with 0 health)

Toxin and Armor-ignore Bleed Procs can diminish health quickly

Viral Stacking via HIVE clouds straight kill-glitches a player if they run Quick-thinking as the game does not have the Energy-Health and just depletes normal health to Zero.

My issue is you say Shield Gate Mechanic is needed - but then the Frames that can bypass being 1-shot shouldn't get the Shield-gate mechanic. So it seems like this "needed mechanic" is only for some Warframes.

All Warframes can benefit from *Not Dying with Some Shields and Zero Health*

 

This was a little hard to read, It shows up strange for some reason. However, i think you missed the point again or you skimmed the examples. I'm going to need you to read ALL the examples i provided with a clear mind. It should be enough for you to understand why the shield gate would be fine for all frames, if it functioned in those ways.

Edited December 23, 2015 by EmptyDevil

[(PSN)MrNishi]

This was a little hard to read, It shows up strange for some reason. However, i think you missed the point again or you skimmed the examples. I'm going to need you to read ALL the examples i provided with a clear mind. It should be enough for you to understand why the shield gate would be fine for all frames, if it functioned in those ways.

I read your Examples

Valkyr you said would have 10sec Cooldown out of Hysteria.

-She gets dispelled(pit)/Nullifier she dies from 1 shot because of Cooldown

WuKong - Defy : gets dispelled or out of energy ....Shields are usually already gone meaning even though he has no Cooldown there are already no Shields - so he stills 1-shot if Defy was removed while already in Health damage with No Shields.

Iron Skin and Snow Globe is functioning under Example 2 used for Defy : Rhino is Immortal unless he runs out of energy, because he uses revolving 'Invincibility phases' Iron Skin breaks allowing Shield-gate to cover reapplying Iron Skin which starts cyle all over.

(As long as he survives the 10sec Cooldown)

Same with Frost

Did I miss something in your Examples?

Or were you implying that if starting with 0 Shields - the gate is in effect

So starting with 0 Shields 300 health

You eat a Bullet for 400 damage but you stay at 0 Shields and 300 health, this it always takes 2 instances of damage even when you have 0 Shields like Nightmare Alerts.

Example WuKong exita Defy Zero Energy Zero Shields and 25 health.

-Defy ended so Shield Gate immediately kicks in; next Bullet if 400 damage

Does he die because Shields were already depleted and thus he had no Gate activation?

Or he shrugs it because he has small Invincibility window?

Current Defy in Conclave is a .5sec Invincibility and does not feel like an Invincibility window. Since Shield Regen can have a longer than .5sec down time.

If Invincibility window is expired but still no Shield have regenerated and he gets hit during 10sec Cooldown but outside of Invincibility window: WuKong still gets 1-shot, correct?

Truly I like the idea of the Shield-Gate

Personally I think it should be incorporated into Quick-thinking as Hysteria and Defy don't work as well with Quick-Thinking crushing the issue of reworking the mechanic for just certain Warframes.

It would also allow players to build on Quick-thinking without needing a high health/Armor/energy Warframe.

Only the status immune abilities would really make it Broken OP.

I guess AFK and Invincibility frame powers like Slash Dash/Tidal Surge/Bladestorm/Landslide/Undertow/CloudWalker/Rift might make things broken.

The removal from Combat abilities could be used during Cooldown timer

Dash Invincibility abilities could be spammed until 10sec Cooldown window has expired, but at the cost of a lot of energy compared to the Combat-Escape abilities like CloudWalker/UnderTow/Rift

Edited December 23, 2015 by (PS4)MrNishi

[FrostySpikes]

I say a hard NO to any form of invincibility for any period of time. That being said... Someone else suggested something very similar. Damage doesn't bleed through shields. Aka say you have 100 health and 100 shields. You take 1000 damage. Your shields are gone- your health is untouched. You take another 1000 damage. You are now dead.

 

It's a simple you-cannot-be-one-shot mechanic, but it is not overpowered. It scales infinitely. No matter how much damage an enemy does, it will never one-shot you. True- late enough game any high rof enemy is still going to shred you; but firstly the whole point of enemy scaling is to kill you eventually, so that's not an issue, and secondly it's better than what we have now and it would encourage moving around and paying attention even more than it does now- once you are at that point.

 

THAT is a mechanic I would approve of. I figured since it's very similar to this I'd just bring it up.

Nice idea!

[EmptyDevil]

I read your Examples

Valkyr you said would have 10sec Cooldown out of Hysteria.

-She gets dispelled(pit)/Nullifier she dies from 1 shot because of Cooldown

 

It has become clear to me that you are definitely misunderstanding the mechanics of the proposed shield gate. I'll break it down again.

 

Shield gate features

 

- Shield Gate - Shields always prevent damage from leaking over into health, if the damage is higher than your remaining shields(Does not have a cooldown).

 

- Shield Collapse Invulnerability - Protects health for 1 second immediately after shields have been depleted(Has a cooldown of 10 seconds). Note: The duration of the invulnerable phase is based on the red glowing outline present on our frames after shields break and health gets struck.

 

Picture of the red glowing outline for reference:

 

It lasts for 1 second.

 

 

 

Now that i broke it down, i said Valkyr's Shield Collapse Invulnerability would be placed on cooldown. So no, she does not get oneshot killed because her shields will still gate with her remaining shield. This effectively gives her a chance to survive without giving her another layer of immortality.

 

 

WuKong - Defy : gets dispelled or out of energy ....Shields are usually already gone meaning even though he has no Cooldown there are already no Shields - so he stills 1-shot if Defy was removed while already in Health damage with No Shields.

 

 

As you said, shields are usually gone. That does not mean they are always gone. If the player is playing smart they will still have the opportunity to regenerate shields(only takes 3 seconds of evading damage) to take advantage of the gate. This is fair.

 

 

Iron Skin and Snow Globe is functioning under Example 2 used for Defy : Rhino is Immortal unless he runs out of energy, because he uses revolving 'Invincibility phases' Iron Skin breaks allowing Shield-gate to cover reapplying Iron Skin which starts cyle all over.

(As long as he survives the 10sec Cooldown)

Same with Frost

 

Rhino would function exactly as he does now in my examples except he won't be vulnerable to a oneshot kill because of the shield gate. His shield collapse invulnerability will be disabled and placed on cooldown as long as he continues to use Iron Skin. That is fair and does not make him immortal.

 

Not sure why you're applying Frost to this. He is only protected as long as he is within the globe, it isn't always with him like Iron Skin, Hysteria, Defy, or damage reduction abilities. So it is not the same.

 

 

Did I miss something in your Examples?

Or were you implying that if starting with 0 Shields - the gate is in effect

 

Yes, you did miss something. See 'Shield gate features' in this post and then reread my examples with those in mind.

 

Shield gating is only in effect if you have some shields left. The invulnerability is only in effect every 10 seconds after shields have been depleted.

 

 

Current Defy in Conclave is a .5sec Invincibility and does not feel like an Invincibility window. Since Shield Regen can have a longer than .5sec down time.

 

That is the point of a brief invulnerability phase. It's only noticeable in dire situations where you're being riddled with bullets and doesn't let you run around in godmode. It gives you an incredibly short opportunity to assess the situation and decide what course of action to take.

 

 

If Invincibility window is expired but still no Shield have regenerated and he gets hit during 10sec Cooldown but outside of Invincibility window: WuKong still gets 1-shot, correct?

 

If you are hit with no shields and the invulnerability is on cooldown, you will die. This is how it would be for all Warframes.

 

 

Truly I like the idea of the Shield-Gate

Personally I think it should be incorporated into Quick-thinking as Hysteria and Defy don't work as well with Quick-Thinking crushing the issue of reworking the mechanic for just certain Warframes.

 

I'm completely against mods being use to solve gameplay mechanics. I don't support this idea at all. The mechanic wouldn't need to be reworked because it does not exist. The way i presented it would work for all Warframes fairly.

 

 

 

Only the status immune abilities would really make it Broken OP.

I guess AFK and Invincibility frame powers like Slash Dash/Tidal Surge/Bladestorm/Landslide/Undertow/CloudWalker/Rift might make things broken.

The removal from Combat abilities could be used during Cooldown timer

 

It wouldn't be broken with abilities attack abilities like Slash Dash. Any ability that allows a frame to evade death for extended periods of time can invoke the invulnerability phase cooldown/retrigger it.

 

Also, absolutely no against placing cooldowns on Warframe abilities.

Edited December 23, 2015 by EmptyDevil

[PsychedelicSnake]

 

Thoughts:

One of the things that bothers me in Warframe is a high amount of literal one-shots caused by broken scaling in the game.

I do realise, that having myself overstayed in, say, T4S, I have to face some danger, so the fact of the scaling is perfectly fine. But the way it does its work it's end up in few particular enemies being able to destroy you in a blink of an eye.

And this game has a problem, that's called lag. You can be good like a god, move around like a wind and dodge bullets like a Neo, but if the game lags just for a moment, boom - you eat three bombard missiles with you backside, now you're dead, deal with it.

 

I don't like being helpless in a game. I don't like the feeling of frustration of not being able to do anything, to not have any control over the situation, to not have any chance to save myself, no matter how hard might it be.

Really, dying in a game knowing you might survived have you reacted faster/done better is a whole different feeling, than just dying because of "to hell with you, I am lvl 100 Corpus Tech".

 

So what I am asking about is - how about introducing a mechanics, that will prevent literal one-shots. For example, in Borderlands there's a thing called "Health Gate", which essentially means you can't die in one shot, if you have over 50%+2 HP. If you receive a blow, that could've killed you right away, you'll go down to 1 HP and get a few frames of invulnerability, so you can do something about it.

It brought quite a weird way of playing though, which is resulted in lowering you maximum HP to an absurdly low number (like having 500 hp against enemies that deal several thousands of damage with every shot) and life-stealing all the time.

And, given Warframe has few sources of lifesteal or quick healing, doing exactly the same thing might result in the same weirdness.

 

However, Warframe also has shields, which are as far as I know pretty hard to keep recharging in the heat of the combat. So why don't use them for this?

Like, if you have any shield up, and you receive a blow that could've killed you immediately, you won't be able to die for like half of a second, giving you a brief period of time to finish casting your CC, finish getting behind the cover and such.

 

tl;dr How about making your shield prevent you from dying instantly by giving you about a half second immunity to death (not damage) when they go down?

 

 

 

I say a hard NO to any form of invincibility for any period of time. That being said... Someone else suggested something very similar. Damage doesn't bleed through shields. Aka say you have 100 health and 100 shields. You take 1000 damage. Your shields are gone- your health is untouched. You take another 1000 damage. You are now dead.

 

It's a simple you-cannot-be-one-shot mechanic, but it is not overpowered. It scales infinitely. No matter how much damage an enemy does, it will never one-shot you. True- late enough game any high rof enemy is still going to shred you; but firstly the whole point of enemy scaling is to kill you eventually, so that's not an issue, and secondly it's better than what we have now and it would encourage moving around and paying attention even more than it does now- once you are at that point.

 

THAT is a mechanic I would approve of. I figured since it's very similar to this I'd just bring it up.

Yes please to these.

[EmptyDevil]

Yes please to these.

 

Really hoping DE implements a shield gate. It would be perfect if it is a combination of both of those suggestions like i detailed. There is no reason to reject a 1 second period of invulnerability other than just to object.

[DSpite]

You seem to be quoting Borderlands but taking examples into Warframe out of context.

 

In Borderlands, the same enemies the level as you were dangerous. You are level 30, facing level 30 enemies, and you need gating in order to survive the more dangerous situations.

 

You are now level 30, and you go into an area where the enemies are level 40.

You cannot move more then 5 feet without getting put down, you weapons do zero damage to enemies, so you can't even self revive.

 

"Level" means something in Borderlands. Here you all expect to face enemies 3 times your own max level, and expect DE to give you extra survival options.

 

No. There has to be cutoff points in ANY game, and right now for goodness knows what reason, enemy scaling ONLY becomes dangerous around 80-100, and you want to try and survive there too.

 

How about we first make the enemies AS dangerous as Borderlands THEN ask for gating when Level 30 Heavy Gunners actually manage to hurt us.

[RealPandemonium]

How about we ask for a fix to the huge spread of levels instead of infinite bandaids.

[Viedra_Lavinova]

I say a hard NO to any form of invincibility for any period of time. That being said... Someone else suggested something very similar. Damage doesn't bleed through shields. Aka say you have 100 health and 100 shields. You take 1000 damage. Your shields are gone- your health is untouched. You take another 1000 damage. You are now dead.

 

It's a simple you-cannot-be-one-shot mechanic, but it is not overpowered. It scales infinitely. No matter how much damage an enemy does, it will never one-shot you. True- late enough game any high rof enemy is still going to shred you; but firstly the whole point of enemy scaling is to kill you eventually, so that's not an issue, and secondly it's better than what we have now and it would encourage moving around and paying attention even more than it does now- once you are at that point.

 

THAT is a mechanic I would approve of. I figured since it's very similar to this I'd just bring it up.

I really like this idea. Why does it not exist? lol Shield gating should be a feature.

Really hoping DE implements a shield gate. It would be perfect if it is a combination of both of those suggestions like i detailed. There is no reason to reject a 1 second period of invulnerability other than just to object.

A lot can happen in even a half a second...

[EmptyDevil]

I really like this idea. Why does it not exist? lol Shield gating should be a feature.

A lot can happen in even a half a second...

 

Indeed.

[Gnarfrog]

Sounds like a crutch for people that can't manage higher level enemies (That's not meant as an insult). I'm very familiar with getting instamurdered by high level enemies (I main Mag, and she goes squish fairly easily if I don't have constant CC rolling), but honestly all this would detract from the difficulty of the game. Severely. Any half decent player would NEVER die with these mechanics implemented. And it would really undervalue the mechanic of reviving group members.

[dot-phaser]

what are the best build for rhino?