Shield Gates For Players

[EmptyDevil]

2 minutes ago, CrudShuzKong said:

I really love all of this, it is so well thought through... Still doubt htat DE will implement it any time soon, since the chance that it upsets higher level balance is quite high...

I doubt it will break the game, but the impact will be felt no matter what kind of mission you go to and that is a scary thing to face.

Thank you.

I think it may be awhile before it becomes a reality too, if at all. I'm hoping DE takes the risk and balances things in other places to compensate any messes, if they occur.

[Viedra_Lavinova]

The Guardian mod for sentinels is a kinda pseudo-quasi shield gate. Anyways, I support because I don't even know why this is a thing? I feel like this should be like the armor variant for shields, a mechanic to help shields survive more like armor for health.

[CrudShuzKong]

 

Just now, Viedra_Lavinova said:

The Guardian mod for sentinels is a kinda pseudo-quasi shield gate. Anyways, I support because I don't even know why this is a thing? I feel like this should be like the armor variant for shields, a mechanic to help shields survive more like armor for health.

not really because it will never save you from a oneshot, in lower level missions its the same, but as soon as you get to onne-shot territory guardian does nothing...

[Viedra_Lavinova]

2 minutes ago, CrudShuzKong said:

 

not really because it will never save you from a oneshot, in lower level missions its the same, but as soon as you get to onne-shot territory guardian does nothing...

yea, and I don't think you even read what I said. I said Psuedo- quasi shield gate, which literally means fake-seemingly like shield gate...

[CrudShuzKong]

1 minute ago, Viedra_Lavinova said:

yea, and I don't think you even read what I said. I said Psuedo- quasi shield gate, which literally means fake-seemingly like shield gate...

It sounded like you were giving a counterargument for implementing a shield gate, which Guardian does not serve as. Guardian literally misses the one quality that makes the introduction of shield gate interesting. Thats why i though it was a bad thing to compare it to. Quick thinking is a much better example (even though that one cant protect from too strong attacks oneshotting you either).

[AandOE]

Reminds me of Borderlands. The only part that worries me is if we suddenly become reliant on the shield gate mechanic, just like in that game, where every enemy eventually scales to one-shot-ness.

[EmptyDevil]

On 3/30/2016 at 1:53 PM, AandOE said:

Reminds me of Borderlands. The only part that worries me is if we suddenly become reliant on the shield gate mechanic, just like in that game, where every enemy eventually scales to one-shot-ness.

Enemies already scale to being able to oneshot in Warframe, but we don't have a shield gate. We have to rely on heavy CC spam or invulnerability, if we want a chance to survive against high damage enemies.

[TwiceDead]

ME3 used Shield Gates... Or was it health-gates? 

Anyways, the point is, it works, and it should be a thing. 

[phoenix1992]

I really do not want this to happen.
This will be direct "band aid" fix, that also ignores players that just do fine with what Digital Exteremes provides us. And I really, really beg you - do not summarize the player base at any moment, there are players that suffer from the "saitama syndrome" and then there are those who just don't. Multiple examples can be given from both sides and it will boil down to this :
1) Argument one "You can use this and that to avoid saitama syndrome" 
-"But I don't wanna be pushed into a meta"
"It is not meta, there are multiple abilities"
-"But they cost too much and effect my playstyle"

2) Argument two "Using invisibility, CC and invulnerability is not cheese, we were meant to use those"
-"But I don't want to play the game like that"
"Well change the game?"
-"You don't get to tell me what to do"

3) Argument three "You can avoid using gimmy sticks, metas and so on but you must be good"
-"But I AM GOOD"
"Seems that you are not"
-"You can't tell me that *shoves arguments/examples/builders/screenshots"

4) Argument fourth "It is okay to die from 60+ level mobs, this is why you are part of a team"
-"But I want to solo!"
"The game wants us to cooperate"
-"But I WANT TO SOLO"

I try to avoid those exchanges - in each case there is gray area - no one is 100% wrong or right. And maybe, just maybe the issue is with how the current damage output and scaling of enemies work.

[EmptyDevil]

1 hour ago, TwiceDead said:

ME3 used Shield Gates... Or was it health-gates? 

Anyways, the point is, it works, and it should be a thing. 

I think it had both kinds of gates IIRC.

[Replacement]

ME3 had a shield gate that kicked in when shields went down entirely, and a health gate that kicked in at critical health levels (I want to say 10% health, but it may have been 1 health).  Some abilities ignored gates (namely, grenades).  The invulnerability duration went down as difficulty went up, to something like .01 seconds on the hardest difficulty. 

Given the flow of Warframe, I think anything over .25 seconds is overkill.

EDIT: It is imperative gates like this be decoupled from the actual health/shield values.  Let's say default shield recharge delay is 3 seconds -- you would give Shield Gate its own cooldown of at least 3 seconds.  This would provide the illusion of "shields block health damage without overflow" while keeping moves like Shield Polarize from distorting the game.  Anyone that does use a +shield ability would their overall survival going up (because, you know, more shields) but without multiple invulnerability windows to abuse.

Also: Inaros gets shield gate against the first attack against him every time shield gate is up.  I think this would be a fair trade off for not having actual shields.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Replacement

[EmptyDevil]

32 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

I really do not want this to happen.
This will be direct "band aid" fix

Enemy scaling is complex because it is also tied in with player's powers, damage, and CC. If you're expecting enemy scaling to be reduced, expect players to be nerfed as well.

35 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

that also ignores players that just do fine with what Digital Exteremes provides us.

How does this harm players that enjoy CC reliance and meta setups? I'm inclined to believe you didn't even read the opening post at all.

36 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

 And I really, really beg you - do not summarize the player base at any moment, there are players that suffer from the "saitama syndrome" and then there are those who just don't. 

Where do you see any summation of the playerbase in the opening thread? If you are referring to the misconceptions section, that is not summarizing players, it is an explanation and answer to some questions/statements.

What is "saitama syndrome" ? Is that when a player can nearly oneshot everything they come across, then become bored as a result?

43 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

 Multiple examples can be given from both sides and it will boil down to this :
1) Argument one "You can use this and that to avoid saitama syndrome" 
-"But I don't wanna be pushed into a meta"
"It is not meta, there are multiple abilities"
-"But they cost too much and effect my playstyle"

2) Argument two "Using invisibility, CC and invulnerability is not cheese, we were meant to use those"
-"But I don't want to play the game like that"
"Well change the game?"
-"You don't get to tell me what to do"

3) Argument three "You can avoid using gimmy sticks, metas and so on but you must be good"
-"But I AM GOOD"
"Seems that you are not"
-"You can't tell me that *shoves arguments/examples/builders/screenshots"

4) Argument fourth "It is okay to die from 60+ level mobs, this is why you are part of a team"
-"But I want to solo!"
"The game wants us to cooperate"
-"But I WANT TO SOLO"

I try to avoid those exchanges - in each case there is gray area - no one is 100% wrong or right. 

Your examples don't really make sense to me. It seems like they are intended to devalue the opinion of those that would like a shield gate by painting them as whiny and uncooperative. There is a lot of strong bias in them.

52 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

And maybe, just maybe the issue is with how the current damage output and scaling of enemies work.

Again, expect the possibility that players will receive a significant nerf in various areas, if enemy scaling is reduced in endless mission modes. Or enemies may get some buffs to compensate their reduced scaling.

[EmptyDevil]

16 minutes ago, Replacement said:

ME3 had a shield gate that kicked in when shields went down entirely, and a health gate that kicked in at critical health levels (I want to say 10% health, but it may have been 1 health).  Some abilities ignored gates (namely, grenades).  The invulnerability duration went down as difficulty went up, to something like .01 seconds on the hardest difficulty. 

Given the flow of Warframe, I think anything over .25 seconds is overkill.

I personally think 0.5 would be the sweet spot for an invulnerability phase in Warframe. It'll ultimately be up to DE, if we get one.

17 minutes ago, Replacement said:

EDIT: It is imperative gates like this be decoupled from the actual health/shield values.  Let's say default shield recharge delay is 3 seconds -- you would give Shield Gate its own cooldown of at least 3 seconds.  This would provide the illusion of "shields block health damage without overflow" while keeping moves like Shield Polarize from distorting the game.  Anyone that does use a +shield ability would their overall survival going up (because, you know, more shields) but without multiple invulnerability windows to abuse.

Also: Inaros gets shield gate against the first attack against him every time shield gate is up.  I think this would be a fair trade off for not having actual shields.

There is indeed a cooldown already in this idea.

I'll consider adding your idea to the OP, but Inaros should probably get a health gate instead.

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, EmptyDevil said:

There is indeed a cooldown already in this idea.

Whoops.  My thoughts were disjointed here.  I actually did see that in the OP!  I was actually trying to emphasize the point, after reading some page 3ish responses that seemed concerned about how powers play into the gates.  With the gate decoupled from actual shield value, the only people who can feasibly "cheat it" are Rhino/Nezha with stoneskins.

[Aquasurge]

On 3/31/2016 at 5:21 AM, TwiceDead said:

ME3 used Shield Gates... Or was it health-gates? 

Anyways, the point is, it works, and it should be a thing. 

agreed, this would help balance the difference between Armour  and negligible shield protection in the game

[UncaIroh]

I remember this mechanic from the Mass Effect Multiplayer. Sounds good. I'm getting sick of L100s killing you in 1 burst/shot. Makes squishier frames a much less attractive choice.

[CrudShuzKong]

Having more ways of playing high level content than cc-spam like blind mirage can only be a good thing.... More variety is ALWAYS a good thing, especially if it is achieved without nerfing any of the previous "meta" styles.

[TheJagji]

On 3/31/2016 at 6:59 AM, phoenix1992 said:

I really do not want this to happen.
This will be direct "band aid" fix, that also ignores players that just do fine with what Digital Exteremes provides us. And I really, really beg you - do not summarize the player base at any moment, there are players that suffer from the "saitama syndrome" and then there are those who just don't.

Yes... accept, DE wants to make money, right? So, the best way to do that is to make the game as accessible to everyone as possible. There doing very well on that front, considering this is a MicoTrans F2P game. They have ways of getting basically anything in the game by playing. Even Plat. Not many, if any, F2P games do this. Now, while you might not have problems, other players are. And this is something that should be looked in to as a way to get players, who might not be as good at the game as you, to be able to play some areas of the game that, without SG, they might not even have a chance of doing.

Personally, I think it is a good idea. As long as it is not something that is made over powered, and is simply there to give you a chance in high lvl stuff, then cool. There might even be ways of having mods that revolve around shield gates to do different things with it.

[Xarteros]

See, the global issue with this that I see is that 90% of endgame is optional from people staying longer and longer on endless Defence and Survivial, and the remaining 10% is Sortie which is sort of in its own realm.

Sorties are just that extra layer of hard, but everything else is more of a choice. People who stay over an hour in T4 Survivals make a choice to push the limit and go as far as they can. One thing I know about people like that is that they don't really complain about the difficulty. If they get one-shot, it's because they were getting careless and let their defences slip. If they get cornered, it's because they weren't thinking fast enough and assessing their surroundings properly.

They push the limits for mediocre rewards purely for the pleasure of the challenge, and they succeed with scary levels of progress.

I personally don't think a bandaid solution to a fairly broken scaling system is really going to fix anything. Pressure makes people develop, you can't actually get good if nothing in the game is a challenge. Personally, getting one-shot makes me more and more wary each time and I've gotten pretty good at staying mobile as well as maintaining defences, no matter what frame I play. 

I don't really feel that it's necessary for now, but one thing I'd like is better, scaling rewards for later level stuff to reward the players that push the limits with no safety blankets to catch them.

[CrudShuzKong]

17 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

I don't really feel that it's necessary for now, but one thing I'd like is better, scaling rewards for later level stuff to reward the players that push the limits with no safety blankets to catch them.

I would love some better scaling rewards in super long runs (like for example double or triple reward rolls for high enough mission duration).

The point though is not to make lategame easier, it is to allow more variety in frames being playable in super lategame. It will be ahrd to balance, but more variety is never a bad thing ever in an endless game.

[Xarteros]

1 minute ago, CrudShuzKong said:

I would love some better scaling rewards in super long runs (like for example double or triple reward rolls for high enough mission duration).

The point though is not to make lategame easier, it is to allow more variety in frames being playable in super lategame. It will be ahrd to balance, but more variety is never a bad thing ever in an endless game.

That's definitely understandable, and is also one of my concerns with a general bandaid solution. Some frames just aren't designed for solo late game, which is understandable, but every warframe should be equally useful at very late game. If players can't use their skills to that end, the skills are what need a fix.

[EmptyDevil]

37 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

That's definitely understandable, and is also one of my concerns with a general bandaid solution. Some frames just aren't designed for solo late game, which is understandable, but every warframe should be equally useful at very late game. If players can't use their skills to that end, the skills are what need a fix.

CrudShuzKong is correct, that is the main purpose of this idea.

Constantly buffing the abilities could lead down a slippery slope and strengthen a CC-centric gameplay. You will eventually always be hit and when the damage reaches the point of oneshot killing you, the best tactic is to continously lockdown the enemies and map with CC. Frames should have a small sliver of survivability without utilizing powers. This would give squishier frames that aren't CC/tanking focused the ability to survive such high damage.

Without a Shield Gate, we'll continue to see things like this for certain frames:

 

Edited April 17, 2016 by EmptyDevil

[Aquasurge]

8 hours ago, EmptyDevil said:

CrudShuzKong is correct, that is the main purpose of this idea.

Constantly buffing the abilities could lead down a slippery slope and strengthen a CC-centric gameplay. You will eventually always be hit and when the damage reaches the point of oneshot killing you, the best tactic is to continously lockdown the enemies and map with CC. Frames should have a small sliver of survivability without utilizing powers. This would give squishier frames that aren't CC/tanking focused the ability to survive such high damage.

Without a Shield Gate, we'll continue to see things like this for certain frames:

 

this is true.

[(XBOX)kr0mus]

Invisibility shouldn't trigger the full 10 secong cool down as you still take full damage and can die if your team is dumb or inatentive.

[Aquasurge]

15 hours ago, (XB1)kr0mus said:

Invisibility shouldn't trigger the full 10 secong cool down as you still take full damage and can die if your team is dumb or inatentive.

true, loki dies if bullets fly towards you and hit before enemies lose track of loki

Edited April 19, 2016 by Aquasurge