The Problem With Banshee (From A Banshee Main)

[Inmemoratus]

I took a few months break from Warframe. Upon coming back I see some Banshee remake threads and I didn't read them because Banshee was already fine for me, except that she got nerfed.

 

Duration didn't affect the energy cost of Soundquake before, and now it does. I had a build for Banshee that was really good and I'll explain it.

 

With Fleeting Expertise and the old Arcane helmet, I have 170% efficiency, so only 5% less than the cap. Before, I was able to CC everything on par with Vauban and that alone made Banshee good. Of course, you could argue for Vauban still being better but it's all situational.

 

Now the problem is you need Duration too. So? Just add Duration? Not that simple. When Silence lasts a long time, it loses a lot of effectiveness in combat, and it also disrupts the flow of combat. When I was first starting to play Banshee I tried having high duration and what I found was that Silence would stop enemies before they got into range to be attacked, so the stun would be wasted outside of the initial time it was cast. Then I'd have to wait 20-30 seconds before I could do it again, meanwhile enemies would be delayed before they'd come into the fight. It was just disruptive and bad. When I tried with low duration, it worked a lot better.

 

So, to make Soundquake really good again, I have to make Silence worse.

 

Meanwhile, you might be saying Sonar needs duration... Well you'd be wrong. With minimum duration it still lasts long enough because enemies die a lot faster when debuffed with it. :P You need to recast it just as frequently regardless of how much duration you have.

 

Now Banshee feels broken and ruined to me. I see no way to make a build on par with what I had before. I don't think a big remake is a good solution, just fix how her abilities scale off the stats.

 

edit: For a stealth build you want duration, but that would be a totally different loadout than what you'd bring to say, Defense or Survival.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Inmemoratus

[Gurpgork]

This was a change that happened in U17.5. All toggled energy drain abilities are affected by both Efficiency and Duration. Naturally some frames benefited from this more than others.

 

I (along with some others) have found that Silence is most effective at 100% range or less. That way, you can easily reapply the stun by just moving around quite a bit. 

Edited December 31, 2015 by Gurpgork

[Inmemoratus]

This was a change that happened in U17.5. All toggled energy drain abilities are affected by both Efficiency and Duration. Naturally some frames benefited from this more than others.

And it broke Banshee completely.

 

Tell me another frame that actually loses effectiveness by building duration and has a channeled ability too.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Inmemoratus

[Inmemoratus]

This was a change that happened in U17.5. All toggled energy drain abilities are affected by both Efficiency and Duration. Naturally some frames benefited from this more than others.

 

I (along with some others) have found that Silence is most effective at 100% range or less. That way, you can easily reapply the stun by just moving around quite a bit. 

Maybe you're not running Power Range?

 

The problem is if you don't have Stretch, the range on Soundquake is too small and a lot of ranged enemies will just attack Banshee from outside of it.

 

Then when you add Stretch it makes Soundquake really good, but then Silence just stuns things way before they get into range to be attacked.

[MillbrookWest]

This is in regards to this thread, yeah?

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/587837-does-banshees-soundquake-scale-off-duration-like-other-channels/

 

I personally don't see the issue, I'm a banshee main myself (been playing her since her parts dropped on Pluto), and yeah, silence got a bit nerfed, but imho, it doesn't really matter. There are better ways to CC enemies than with Banshee's silence.

 

Silence should give an accuracy debuff to organic enemies....on account of burst eardrums or something.

[Inmemoratus]

This is in regards to this thread, yeah?

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/587837-does-banshees-soundquake-scale-off-duration-like-other-channels/

 

I personally don't see the issue, I'm a banshee main myself (been playing her since her parts dropped on Pluto), and yeah, silence got a bit nerfed, but imho, it doesn't really matter. There are better ways to CC enemies than with Banshee's silence.

 

Silence should give an accuracy debuff to organic enemies....on account of burst eardrums or something.

 

Yeah I could just forget about using Silence. It doesn't change the fact that she's weaker now. I need to use a mod slot for Primed Continuity, I need to actually max it out, so I'm gonna need literally a few hundred more rare cores, and I won't have the emergency stun from Silence nearly as often, and when I do need to use it, it will disrupt the flow of combat.

 

There's no two ways about it. She's weaker than before and there was no need to nerf her in the first place.

[DeMonkey]

Im sorry... but what? Your minmax build has just been made rubbish, no need to overreact, its not like Silence spam is all she's good for...

Yes, you used to be able to spam silence with next to no soundsides, but since that was never its intended use I fail to see why DE should balance her around it.

You've just got back, play with her some more, adapt. (If you want an emergency stun, use her #1, the ability that was designed for quick stuns, not the ability designed for stealth)

Edited December 31, 2015 by DeMonkey

[hukurokuju5]

 You can either run a min/max soundquake build and sit in a game with 4 on all day, or you can run a build that kind of ignores soundquake, as you cannot mod for soundquake and keep the effectiveness of silence at the same time.

 

banshee main and complaining about silence? really?

 

silence doesnt work well with extra range because enemies are stunned too far away from you to take advantage of the potential survivability it gives you

[Inmemoratus]

Im sorry... but what? Your minmax build has just been made rubbish, no need to overreact, its not like Silence spam is all she's good for...

Yes, you used to be able to spam silence with next to no soundsides, but since that was never its intended use I fail to see why DE should balance her around it.

You've just got back, play with her some more, adapt. (If you want an emergency stun, use her #1, the ability that was designed for quick stuns, not the ability designed for stealth)

 

Look why should she have been nerfed in the first place? Did they nerf Vauban? Did they nerf Nova? Did they nerf Trinity?

[DeMonkey]

Look why should she have been nerfed in the first place? Did they nerf Vauban? Did they nerf Nova? Did they nerf Trinity?

It wasn't a nerf, it's just the way you're choosing to see it. For those of us who enjoyed using Sonar over Silence the change was a buff.

Matter of perspective.

[Inmemoratus]

It wasn't a nerf, it's just the way you're choosing to see it. For those of us who enjoyed using Sonar over Silence the change was a buff.

Matter of perspective.

 

Before: She's good at A and B. Now: She's good at A or B.

 

How is that not a nerf?

 

Let's say they change Vauban so he has to choose to either be good at Bastille or Vortex. Are you going to tell me that isn't a nerf?

[DeMonkey]

Before: She's good at A and B. Now: She's good at A or B.

 

How is that not a nerf?

 

Let's say they change Vauban so he has to choose to either be good at Bastille or Vortex. Are you going to tell me that isn't a nerf?

I can see you're unreasonable and unwilling to adapt, and frankly I dont have the patience right now to try and get you to look at things objectively. Have fun overreacting.

[Inmemoratus]

I can see you're unreasonable and unwilling to adapt, and frankly I dont have the patience right now to try and get you to look at things objectively. Have fun overreacting.

Because you are unable to refute my logic? How is it "unreasonable" to call this a nerf? Banshee was better in every way before the change. Tell me how that is a false statement.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Inmemoratus

[DeMonkey]

Banshee was better in every way before the change. Tell me how that is a false statement.

Like I said, unreasonable.

[Inmemoratus]

Like I said, unreasonable.

All you're doing is calling me unreasonable. That isn't an argument.

 

I am complaining about a nerf. I am not showing any willingness to adapt to a nerf. That much is true. Don't try and act like I have no right to complain. "just adapt" to the nerf? You could say that about any nerf that they implement. Are you saying that questioning nerfs is not valid feedback?

Edited December 31, 2015 by Inmemoratus

[Prime]

Tell me how that is a false statement.

it's not. 

Though it's true that you are overreacting.

There is no need for you to adapt to nerfs, but that will take your fun in banshee away... 

 

Try some new builds if you want to or just wait, though i doubt DE will change the mechanics again very soon.

Edited December 31, 2015 by -.A.-Prime

[ShardsSuperior]

Before: She's good at A and B. Now: She's good at A or B.

 

How is that not a nerf?

 

Let's say they change Vauban so he has to choose to either be good at Bastille or Vortex. Are you going to tell me that isn't a nerf?

 

Before, she was good as either Sonar (high range and duration - you don't need power strength) or Silence + Soundquake (high range, low duration with efficiency).

 

Now, she's good at Sonar + Soundquake (high range + efficiency with better than neutral duration) or Silence (high range, low duration, high efficiency).

 

It's a lateral change, at worst. Or a straight up buff to Soundquake if you were already using the Sonar build with high duration.

Besides, how often do you need Soundquake when everyone in view is staggered every 3 seconds, anyways?

 

There. Your lack of logic has been refuted.

[Inmemoratus]

it's not. 

Though it's true that you are overreacting.

There is no need for you to adapt to nerfs, but that will take your fun in banshee away... 

 

Try some new builds if you want to or just wait, though i doubt DE will change the mechanics again very soon.

I'm going to put on primed continuity and someday perhaps even get it to rank 10 and have 100% duration again. So did I mention how annoying it is that now to spec for Soundquake you have to grind ridiculous amounts of cores?

 

But anyway, I'm still going to express that I'm not happy with the change, especially when other people keep posting all these remake ideas. I want DE to know that at least somebody out there likes the current kit, but that it has been nerfed.

[Pie_mastyr]

So if silence was changed so that it could simply be disabled early, would that not be a solution to your problem? That way DE can have a consistent modding strategy for channeled abilities, and you can have a way to build her that is functionally identical to your old build (with a bit more duration to boot)

[Inmemoratus]

Before, she was good as either Sonar (high range and duration - you don't need power strength) or Silence + Soundquake (high range, low duration with efficiency).

 

Now, she's good at Sonar + Soundquake (high range + efficiency with better than neutral duration) or Silence (high range, low duration, high efficiency).

 

It's a lateral change, at worst. Or a straight up buff to Soundquake if you were already using the Sonar build with high duration.

Besides, how often do you need Soundquake when everyone in view is staggered every 3 seconds, anyways?

 

There. Your lack of logic has been refuted.

 

Long duration Sonar is rather useless in general combat. Enemies usually die within the duration of a minimum duration Sonar. The gains on Sonar do not make up for the losses.

 

Look at it this way, before the change, all 3 skills were very serviceable in a minimum duration build. Now in a 100% duration build, Silence is almost not worth casting. It becomes very niche. Meanwhile, Sonar becomes marginally better for most situations.

So if silence was changed so that it could simply be disabled early, would that not be a solution to your problem? That way DE can have a consistent modding strategy for channeled abilities, and you can have a way to build her that is functionally identical to your old build (with a bit more duration to boot)

It would, but I didn't suggest it because wouldn't that mean you can cast Silence as much as you want and get the CC lock without having to channel, allowing you to freely move and shoot weapons? I dunno. I guess it could have a minimum duration before you can cancel it.

 

Well, I guess I prefer to tell the dev what I think the problem is. I think devs generally don't like being told what the solution (in the player's mind) is.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Inmemoratus

[Prime]

So if silence was changed so that it could simply be disabled early, would that not be a solution to your problem? That way DE can have a consistent modding strategy for channeled abilities, and you can have a way to build her that is functionally identical to your old build (with a bit more duration to boot)

sounds nice!

[ranks21]

sound quake will get banshee players killed everytime and whatever the ones defending her is saying, the fact still remains that she needs a total rework.   3/4 of her animation casting is slow and 1 locks you into position which toggling in and out when the battle is heated is totally risky.

 

 for what it is they fail to mention the change to spawning in endless missions like surv and excav that the enemies spawn closer the longer you go to the point they are literally 5m away, maps with rocketeer  ( grineer) or snipers at distance makes soundquake absolete and non functional and sonar wont help either.

 

 most banshee players tends to stick to small maps where her abilities do works << t4 intercept and draco>. open maps like triton she wont last half as long.

[Pie_mastyr]

It would, but I didn't suggest it because wouldn't that mean you can cast Silence as much as you want and get the CC lock without having to channel, allowing you to freely move and shoot weapons? I dunno.

naa, you'd have to deal with cast time, as well as it would be terribly inefficient. 

Oh as far as your current build is concerned, I've been able to go as low as around 80% duration and still keep have the lowest energy per second cost for chanelled abilities. You can do this by going beyond the efficiency cap.

[venon23]

im the only one here that think banshee is op as fk  but not very playerd cuz she squish as fk 
1 nice too keep them from u
2 no comments most broken ability ever with that augment pfff
3 give u some time too reposition ur self and ur team and team that with a mirage or a excal and get 0.o mobs are stupid like hell
4 not good ability for sure but gives u chance for some one riveve ur team mates with not much worri

single problem with banshee is u need duration range and power wich leads u too become very squish and the smell of a bullet will kill u but if u have a nice team (TS/raidcall/etctec) shes op like $
 

Edited December 31, 2015 by venon23

[Inmemoratus]

naa, you'd have to deal with cast time, as well as it would be terribly inefficient. 

Oh as far as your current build is concerned, I've been able to go as low as around 80% duration and still keep have the lowest energy per second cost for chanelled abilities. You can do this by going beyond the efficiency cap.

 

That isn't terribly amazing news. This requires more mod space.

 

I forgot to mention, I have 184% power strength which is really nice considering how many enemies Soundquake hits at a time. So you're telling me I'm gonna have to give up some of that too? Or I have to give up other mods.

 

See, that change really hurt her.

 

edit: Ok but you're saying you can go beyond the efficiency cap to compensate for negative duration? Maybe my best option is to stop using Blind Rage and lose some power strength.

 

 

im the only one here that think banshee is op as fk  but not very playerd cuz she squish as fk 

 

 

Well see I was running Vigor + Redirection to solve that issue. Now I'm gonna have to make some hard choices.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Inmemoratus