Let Me Explain You, Why There Won't Be A New Color For New Criticals

[NezuHimeSama]

That's not too hard on endless, especially with trAsh. Spamming bladestorm a lot got me around 900 hits by the 20min mark I think?

[Epsik-kun]

The reason it doesn't show a good increase for melee

Literally 1000 damage into 90k on screen. "Doesn't show a good increase"

 

Anyway, It isn't diminished to an extent you are stating it is, because despite using a x3 modifier weapon, 80k critical is "red4" and 90k one is "red5", unless I am terribly wrong in my calculations.

What works weird, and not in the way I would think it it should work are channeling and stealth finisher multipliers. Because the first one seem to have virtually no effect on post-critical damage output unless True Punishment is used, while the second one has doesn't seem to be affected by overstacked critical chance at all.

[-dicht.Amducias-]

That's not too hard on endless, especially with trAsh. Spamming bladestorm a lot got me around 900 hits by the 20min mark I think?

Ye thats not too hard if you have fun hitting enemies for years and using an invincibility frame otherwise u die anyway in high levels.. also cool that he tested it against 0 armor targets

[Epsik-kun]

Do a mission an get a 1500 hit count pls.. melee is useless, even with 150k crits its still useless

That's x4 damage increase. x3 multiplier is merely 135, it will give you around 50k crtitcal hits

Ye thats not too hard if you have fun hitting enemies for years and using an invincibility frame otherwise u die anyway in high levels.. also cool that he tested it against 0 armor targets

I get that you don't play these "high levels" yourself. But I don't get why are you so salty.

It was tested against 0 armor targets to show the unmitigated damage - very cool, indeed. On lvl 75 Corrupted Heavy Gunner it hits for about 8k damage I believe.

[-dicht.Amducias-]

That's x4 damage increase. x3 multiplier is merely 135, it will give you around 50k crtitcal hits

I get that you don't play these "high levels" yourself. But I don't get why are you so salty.

It was tested against 0 armor targets to show the unmitigated damage - very cool, indeed. On lvl 75 Corrupted Heavy Gunner it hits for about 8k damage I believe.

I play way higher levels.. lvl75 are levels u still mass kill

Try to melee them (and they dont even have armor)

Edited January 28, 2016 by -dicht.Amducias-

[Epsik-kun]

Try to melee them (and they dont even have armor)

You go up close, and press melee button. If chargers can kill you, you are just bad.

[-dicht.Amducias-]

You go up close, and press melee button. If chargers can kill you, you are just bad.

 

 

haha an ancient at that level needs 200 hits with each hit doing 90k dmg.. have fun

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I play way higher levels.. lvl75 are levels u still mass kill

Try to melee them (and they dont even have armor)

Enemy Levels where Banshee Sonar can shine.

I understand that critical damage above 200% are reapplying the multipliers at each 100% tier level of Crit.

I think the closest it compares to is Banshee Sonar where you can stack weakpoint multipliers on top of one another.

(Most damage I have seen is with 2 299% Power Strength Banshee's with 299% Strength Rhino Roar active: just spam Stacking Sonars until Trinity shot with a Red-Crit Lanka

Yellow Banshee + Blue Banshee = Green marks kill spot.... way overkill)

[YasaiTsume]

Instead of arguing about whether Melee is finally viable, or if Melee is finally broken, let's see the original topic.

OK, so if yu want to flaunt yur overkill crit rate, a new colour should be used whatever meh.

Imo, Red is probably the darkest colour aside from Black we can use to signify a devastating crit, so I'll just stick with Red for overcrit , no matter how much crit it deals.

 

Why on earth this is in Feedback, I have no idea, since the OP claims to explain why we don't need another Crit colour, when all he is doing is showing us fat numbers with a Zoren. 

 

 

 

Melee has always been very usable in a fair stage of the game, where the player rather rush an objective rather than shoot the enemy.
Whenever rushing objectives, with the speedy movements from Parkour 2.0, I more or less just swipe away any pathetic enemy that tries to stop me instead of shooting them.

As for people who favour Melee, Melee has been very usable up to Level 50 and up, where enemies start getting very thick. 
By then, people would probably be ready to extract or whatever, provided they aren't trying to set a world record for survival or soemthing.

Yes, Blood Rush + Body Count Combo highly favours high Crit weapons but, so what? 

Finally a way for Critical based melees to scale up into the game and people start sneering at it because their guns can't do the same. 

 

As if Argon Scopes on Synapses aren't almost the same thing with their Red crit headshots. 

[AgentSkye]

So, 100 base damage, 4x crit multi is 400% damage for yellow crit, +300 for red1, +200 for red2, +100 for red3, +0 for red4, and +0 again for red5.

On the other hand, a 7x crit multi would be 700 damage at yellow, +600 for red1, +500 for red2, +400 for red3, +300 for red4, and +200 for red5.

Basically, diminishing returns.

 

I was under the impression that red crits add your critical multiplier minus 1 because they're doubling the bonus, not the total--not because of an arbitrary subtraction. Therefore, if a weapon has a 4x critical multiplier, the critical damage bonus is +300%, which should logically be stacked with each additional tier of critical hits, without any diminishing returns.

 

I figured there might already be additional tiers of critical hits, because it seems like that would be generally easier and more efficient to code it that way, even if they aren't reachable. Actually, especially if they aren't reachable.

 

Other things to consider:

 - Ancients' legs have a 3x weak point multiplier, don't they?

 - Invisibility tends to grant a 4x stealth multiplier, though it goes away after bumping into an enemy, which can be rather difficult to avoid with such short range weapons, and especially with slide attacks. It looks like it's not in effect in the first two pics, because this is also what makes Radial Blind boost damage, and if it were already affecting the damage, the Radial Blind one shouldn't actually have higher damage.

 

Beyond that, I don't really have any input at the moment.

[Epsik-kun]

when all he is doing is showing us fat numbers with a Zoren. 

 

 

As if Argon Scopes on Synapses aren't almost the same thing with their Red crit headshots. 

All he is doing is showing you 1100 spin damage/x3 crit multiplier Zoren deal 80k damage critical on Combo Counter x4, which translates into 20k damage without taking into an account combo multiplier itself, which in its own turn is higher than normal critical (3300 damage), higher than red critical (5500 damage), higher than you would assume "SUPER RED CRITICAL DREAD CAN DO NOW WE TOTALLY NEED A NEW COLOR FOR" would be (7000~8000 damage) and higher than a several more step-ups done in the same fashion.

The point is, if DE will give you a new color for every 100% critical chance you get, you might have an epilepsy attack.

OP just doesn't really like to spoonfeed people (which is what he's doing right now) who are too lazy to figure what 2x2 equals to.

 

As if Argon Scope will give you over 500% crit chance on any weapon in the game

I was under the impression that red crits add your critical multiplier minus 1 because they're doubling the bonus, not the total--not because of an arbitrary subtraction. Therefore, if a weapon has a 4x critical multiplier, the critical damage bonus is +300%, which should logically be stacked with each additional tier of critical hits, without any diminishing returns.

 

I figured there might already be additional tiers of critical hits, because it seems like that would be generally easier and more efficient to code it that way, even if they aren't reachable. Actually, especially if they aren't reachable.

 

Other things to consider:

 - Ancients' legs have a 3x weak point multiplier, don't they?

 - Invisibility tends to grant a 4x stealth multiplier, though it goes away after bumping into an enemy, which can be rather difficult to avoid with such short range weapons, and especially with slide attacks. It looks like it's not in effect in the first two pics, because this is also what makes Radial Blind boost damage, and if it were already affecting the damage, the Radial Blind one shouldn't actually have higher damage.

 

Beyond that, I don't really have any input at the moment.

It works in a weird fashion to be honest. My initial thought was pretty much the same. However, right now I'm leaning towards the recursive way of calculating the damage, that includes lowering the multipler for x1 on every new step, without going lower than x1 multiplier. Was leaning. Back to thinking it should be done via multipliers increments as it makes much more sense this way.

Analysing this particular case in the calculations I use now, that seem to fit all the cases I faced so far (although still with some margin of error, so i can't be 100% sure about it):

Total critical chance is:

(0.4[critical chance of the weapon] * 1.3[Naramon passive bonus] + 0.9[Maiming Strike bonus]) * (1 + 1.35[blood Rush bonus] * 4[Combo Counter multiplier] = 9.08

Which means that there's 908% to deal a critical strike. Assuming, we didn't get a 8% overcrit, it's a 800% level critical strike

The damage for which is dealed via applying critical strike over 16 iterations, each iteration lowering the multiplier by x1, but no less than x1 multiplier. So, the total damage multiplier would be:

3[critical hit] + 2[first red critical] + 1[second red critical] + 1[third red critical], etc

Disregard that, over 800% red crit consists of 8 x2 increments and 1 x3 increments. Result is amusingly the same though.

In short:

14 + 3 + 2 = 19

The damage would be:

1128,6[damage after Excal's passive, as I believe I didn't had Steel Charge active back then] * 19[critical multiplier] * 4[combo multiplier] ~ 85773 damage, of which 5% isn't affected by any multiplers, two instances of 47.5% (slash and cold) are affected by 1.15 and 0.75 multipliers, which result in about 81700 damage, which is pretty close to what I've got on screen (but still, isn't exactly the same, so take all these calculations with a grain of salt).

 

I'm also sure, that Stealth bonus and channeling bonus have a weird interaction with red criticals, as they definitely do not provide their respective x4 and x1.5 multipliers.

I also assume, that body parts also do not provide direct multiplicative bonus, seeing that damage tends come out in like 3-4 variations, having around 20k difference between highest and lowest. However, I'm not completely sure about that, as it is a pain to check it.

 

I don't think, I've hit x3 spot on the Ancient in this particular case, but can't be completely sure about that.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[taiiat]

speaking of Damage Number Colors - i've gotten Green Numbers exactly twice.

no, i don't know what caused it because only happened twice, a couple months apart from each other.

 

that is all.

[Wawazat]

i was wondering if i should build my melee weapons to have higher than 200% crit or just add more base damage. after reading i have decided to go with more crit. no need for more colors to make me happy :)

Spoiler

this also means that some calculating on the warframe builder site might be incorrect.

 

[HUNDarkTemplar]

On 2016. 01. 27. at 5:40 PM, -dicht.Amducias- said:

 

 

haha an ancient at that level needs 200 hits with each hit doing 90k dmg.. have fun

Well, If you do the 90k damage with non melee weapons then its less then 200 hits? As the melee gets weaker, the othjer weapons get weaker too. Those super hardcore levels are cheesed with different tactics. CC-s, Buff, good synergies, finishers ( ivara has the one hit finisher, hopefully everyone already seen the 3 hour solo ivara ) etc... Its not that melees are bad at high level, everything is bad at those high levels expect some warframe abilities can make it possible to do those missions. Also level 100s are already end game, the super high end game S#&$ is just for some hardcore people, but because the scaling is #*($%%@ in the game there is no really end game with chesse. Enemies should have scaling CC, Status resistance and at some level they should get complete warframe ability immunity to F*** over the people who wants to go againts level 1000+s. 

A Chroma with 7x damage can fckin deal some good damage with melees and there are both some good crit/status and range melee weapons. They aint useless, I actually like melees much more, also if you want to be super hardcore player who is so godly of himself, then you should go without warframe abilities and melee and if you cant kill those level 1000s then you can accept your fail and leave, because you shouldnt even be there, dont use chicken running hack cheese tactics. No Warframe abilties, only melee = skillz

[-dicht.Amducias-]

3 hours ago, HUNDarkTemplar said:

Well, If you do the 90k damage with non melee weapons then its less then 200 hits? As the melee gets weaker, the othjer weapons get weaker too. Those super hardcore levels are cheesed with different tactics. CC-s, Buff, good synergies, finishers ( ivara has the one hit finisher, hopefully everyone already seen the 3 hour solo ivara ) etc... Its not that melees are bad at high level, everything is bad at those high levels expect some warframe abilities can make it possible to do those missions. Also level 100s are already end game, the super high end game S#&$ is just for some hardcore people, but because the scaling is #*($%%@ in the game there is no really end game with chesse. Enemies should have scaling CC, Status resistance and at some level they should get complete warframe ability immunity to F*** over the people who wants to go againts level 1000+s. 

A Chroma with 7x damage can fckin deal some good damage with melees and there are both some good crit/status and range melee weapons. They aint useless, I actually like melees much more, also if you want to be super hardcore player who is so godly of himself, then you should go without warframe abilities and melee and if you cant kill those level 1000s then you can accept your fail and leave, because you shouldnt even be there, dont use chicken running hack cheese tactics. No Warframe abilties, only melee = skillz

Melee has its uses.. supporting warframe abilities aside from that, like melee only, it's bad

Also limiting urself in not using warframe abilities essentially removes the main part of why i play warframe.. also this thread is pretty old and i discovered some uses for melee but killing enemies with melee only and no abilities? No thanks