Saryn's Venom Spore Is Pretty Useless

[Stinker]

The AoE radius on it's explosions are too small.

The damage it deals is too little to justify ever spending the time/energy to cast it on anything but a boss, aggravated by it having a small AoE/hit detection.

All it does is damage over time as far as I can tell.

The spores seem to have crappy hit detection. (Shooting them with a shotgun doesn't even work all that well, even at close range with the reticule on the spore and having emptied an entire clip on it!!)

It takes a decent amount of time to cast

 

After trying my darndest to get some good use out of it, there was only one situation it seemed to kind of work, and even now I have no idea what caused it, was something an ember did, but basically all the spores were getting auto popped instantaneously in a high level defense wave that seemed to do ok in helping the enemies die. I couldn't really see anymore due to the numbers popping up which lasted a long time. So either hordes of additional enemies were running into the mess of spores somehow getting autopopped, or they really weren't doing that much damage to begin with.

 

My ideas to improve? (not necessarily for all of these to be used together mind you)

AoE radius of destroyed spores needs to skyrocket imho. Or even change how they work to leave a cloud that applies spores on contact instead of a single burst, or increase the potency of the burst to apply a ton of spores or have the burst deal damage itself massively to the host and to those around it. The AoE just seems broken right now. Sometimes it works, other times it won't infect ther dude bumping shoulders. A fix would be AWESOME. You know, some polish for the game? :D

 

Have spores auto explode upon death. Aggravated by crappy hit detection, a lot of the time the energy is just wasted on this ability because the dude dies before the spore explodes.

 

Hit detection needs to go up on spores. Like I said before, I've taken a strun (as well as a hek, grakata, viper, dual vipers, gorgon, braton, kunai, dread, lex, and a boltor now) to these spores at any range viable for the guns. From longer ranged to point blank, they had issues popping spores!

 

Melee hits could just outright pop every spore on a target for a 'combo' move of sorts.

 

Just please do SOMETHING for this ability!!

General consensus seems to be to just fix hit detection on them.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Stinker

[Annnoth]

It's actually pretty strong. 600 damage, be it over 12 seconds though. My only problem is the hit detection. Maybe make the time shorter and the damage harder

[V0LK]

It would be awesome and absolutely my favourite, if spores exploded simply upon victims death. But that would be fun, and DE doesn't like fun.

 

Now it's kinda sometimes useful against infested, since they not shoot you back. Otherwise it more efficient to just aim for the head and use those power on good mods.

[ScribWere]

I actually sort of like Venom. It's a great 'fire and forget', to eat moas, Ambulas, and it ~is~ the 'screw your shields' button for bosses. Mind you I find the spores all but useless. I don't even try to detonate them as it's so unreliable and the radius is pathetically small.

Anyway, its mostly my 'throw on stalkers and bosses' thingy.

Now Contagion. That's a waste of points. I mean, a fully upgraded Venom is ~going~ to kill just about anything but a boss and a heavy enemy by itself. Contagion is just a waste of energy that could be spent on a molt or miasma.

Edited June 7, 2013 by ScribWere

[Stinker]

It's actually pretty strong. 600 damage, be it over 12 seconds though. My only problem is the hit detection. Maybe make the time shorter and the damage harder

It would be awesome and absolutely my favourite, if spores exploded simply upon victims death. But that would be fun, and DE doesn't like fun.

Now it's kinda sometimes useful against infested, since they not shoot you back. Otherwise it more efficient to just aim for the head and use those power on good mods.

Exactly. "It'd be good if it weren't for x"

Why not just fix 'x'?

It may do 600 damage in 12 seconds but it takes a good 2 seconds to cast and burns the energy you could use on Miasma instead. instead you could be filling up that 2 seconds cast time with additional bullets and drop a half second miasma that seems to do a lot more damage anyway. (correct me if I'm wrong here. I couldn't ever actually see how much damage miasma does. I only know everything it touches has died, although I haven't been able to test it on t3 void enemies.)

 

 

I actually sort of like Venom. It's a great 'fire and forget', to eat moas,

That's pretty crap for 25 energy. Maybe, again, if it auto detonated on death with a larger radius it'd be worth 25 energy.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Stinker

[Anime_Chaos]

From what I'm reading here compared to my personal experience with the ability, the problem doesn't seem to be Venom itself, but rather the fact damage over time doesn't mesh with the run and gun playstyle that seems to be the norm for Warframe.

 

If popping a spore in a mass of chargers that were better hit with an ultimate was the best that could be found it's shining moments were sadly overlooked, quite possilby because of the usual playstyle. As ScribWere said, it's wonderful for shutting down a boss' shield. It's other prime use is ruining Grineer heavies and Infested ancients. However in order for that to payoff it needs to be given time to do it's thing. Which again comes down to the playstyle point.

 

You complain about a 2 second animation Stinker, (That doesn't feel like 2 seconds to me, could be playstyle again.) but as a fan of Damage over Time classes I can say those like myself measure the time spent casting it differently. To borrow a term from describing a class' play in a completely different game, Venom has to be measured in "damage per effective time" rather than pure "damage per second" for it's actual power to be seen. Which is to say, measure it by the fact you spent 2 seconds to cause 600 damage instead of spending 2 seconds to apply a 50DPS DoT effect. Because sans the target getting killed that damage is going to happen whether you stand there shooting the target in the face or run around the corner to let your shield regen.

 

Could you do more than 50 DPS with those 2 seconds? Definitely. But could you do more than 600 damage with them? I honestly don't know as I don't claim to be very good at this game. The fact of the matter is, the meteric by which the abilty gets measured vastly effects it's perceived power.

 

The AoE blast? While a delightful moment to be sure, comes off as a bonus more than a mandatory part of it's use when you look at it as a tool to make bullet sponges take up much less bullets than when shoehorning it into a crowd killer role.

 

 

Thank you for reading.

- An avid lurker and fan of Saryn that felt strongly enough to risk coming out of lurking on this topic.

[Stinker]

Thank you for reading.

- An avid lurker and fan of Saryn that felt strongly enough to risk coming out of lurking on this topic.

I've got my saryn to 30 now(maxed out stretch mod streamline/focus mods about halfway) and I've been doing defense missions like crazy and a few times went to wave 30 . I'm having a hard time ever justifying it's use especially after this one incident where I swear it should have liquified it's targets.

 

I have a few questions about it if you wouldn't mind, Anime_Chaos. Do venom spores stack on a target (the damaging portion of the ability) if it's hit by multiple AoE venom blasts? Can a venom theoretically persist indefinitely if it's transferred to new hosts all the time?

 

What powers from other frames have you found that pop spores reliably?

 

There was one game I was playing with one other saryn and 2 embers and there were a few times that my spores would just explode like an epidemic to the point I could no longer see the enemies because of the damage number spam spilling out of them. (which was also disappointing since I could still see the one health bar at the top and despite being bathed in venom, they weren't dying very fast. Seemed like a prime example of even under ideal conditions it kinda sucks.)

 

As far as a fire and forget dot goes, ehhhh it could be better for 25 energy.

[fishworshipper]

In PvP it's an instant win.

I do agree, however, that it needs a rebalancing so that it's more useful.

[Stinker]

I think my biggest beef with it is that it's just not really very rewarding to use. It's just a pain in the butt that you just wish would do more/not suck

[ZephRG]

I think if they doubled the DPS, halved the duration, and made it actually spread properly when you're not hosting (I don't know why people are complaining about the range, I can tag an enemy, shoot the spores, and have things that were behind me melt; the fact that it just outright doesn't spread sometimes is the real problem) then it would probably be a really good skill for 25 energy. If you can cause a chain reaction it can be a useful way to kill a huge crowd with minimal effort. The problem is in a lot of situations just shooting everything tends to go faster.

[Noogums]

I'm confused.. You say it's useless, but I consistently use it to clear entire rooms of Level 40+ Grineer in Defense... I use it more than Saryn's Ulti, because frankly.. It's more fun, and it actually stacks better. Try spending some time with it, getting used to it and learning how to trigger it.

The only problem with this skill is hit-detection in high-latency matches. Which I'm sure they can fix, because they fixed the Glaive's performance in similar situations.

[AFKrey]

From what I've done using venom I can say its great, I think the spores not spreading most of the time is a glitch.

It's great for causing steady damage while in cover (so you can recover shields, reload, etc.), has a long cast range so you can deal with far away enemies while fighting the ones nearest to you, and if the spores started working properly it would be cost efficient your poisoning more for the price of 1.

You should stop thinking that this ability is a waste of energy for miasma.

[Stinker]

Look, I'm not denying it can't be good, although I've seen it at it's best and it's still nothing spectacular, but there are some glaring problems that nobody here has denied.

 

Fix hit detection on spores.

Fix AoE for popping a spore.

 

All the responses seem to be in pretty good agreement on those two points, yes?

 

p.s. I have noticed that grineer are the only faction that the spore seems to work most of the time on and I probably use it against them the most. I've all but given up on getting it to work well on ancients/general infested. Defense missions seems to be the only place for this skill in all honesty.

[Qb3rt]

If it was designed as a straight up pure single-target DoT spell, it would be just OK, yet still weak & highly situational (bosses, heavies, ancients).

 

But it wasn't designed to just be a single-target DoT.... and it's intended mechanic is a total failure.

[KaijuKraid]

I find Venom to be basically a boss killer considering it stacks and does tons and tons of damage. 

[VoidWraith]

i wouldnt really say its useless... its good for bosses... but i would like to see higher damage ticks and perhaps the venom spores not be so crazy hard to hit...

[Raptros]

Are you KIDDING?

 

Max the damn thing out and use it in a void or grineer mission. You can easily tag 10+ people with it.

[Anime_Chaos]

I've not attempted to stack it personally due to energy economy. I didn't have a flow or any other mods to allow heavy ability use until earlier today. Though KaijuKraid addressed that topic to the positive. Which makes it something I'm certainly going to have to see for myself now that I know that. I'd assumed it wouldn't.

As an aside, I don't care for defense missions very much so I cannot address usefulness in regards to those very well. Aside from the obvious admission that things need to die as quickly as possible in large numbers in them. Damage over time effects under-perform in such situations.

However, I have indeed seen new spores spawn when Vey Hek's copies got infected from one being popped on the big man so it may indeed be possible to cascade them provided spores continue to get popped onto new targets. Though admittedly I've not tested such.

I have no data on ability use leading to spore detonation. Random groups don't seem to use them very often and my clan is based from a small community so I lack the "play with clanmates" option most of the time.

[blackraver]

Venom doesn't really need any change in its mechanics to be honest. Sure the AoE isn't great but it doesnt shine in that role. It has incredible single target damage, and any buff would imbalance it. I like e way it works right now. Makes bosses like Phorid and krell take less bullets and time to finish. Specially krell cause I don't think armor mitigates poison damage

Edit* the venom blasts can also stack providing massive damage that far exceeds miasma when fighting powerful enemies. Much more useful IMO than a weak AoE to hurt weaker enemies. You could just blast or slash your way through weaker enemies so DoT isn't even useful against them

Edited June 11, 2013 by blackraver

[jonnyguy]

Venom is insanely flexible (You must compare it with other 25en ability).

1. Total damage is high, super for cover seeking enemies like grineers and corpus. You have benefit of fire-n-forget, let you focus on other enemy. The reach is quite good, not many other frame ability out range it. Using it on infected is less beneficial as they always rush you. BUT you have option to burst the Venom spore for small AoE damage when they clustered around.

 

2. Venom is a sure-hit ability. You don't need shoot any projectile and pray that it hits.

 

3. Hard to aim at the spore? Drop a Molt. It cost only 25en. And it draws fire allow you to concentrate. Or the infected will be gathering around it when Venom burst. Molt in air, its an really old tactic. For shotguns, you still need the centre of the target reticle to line up with the spore. This is also reason why shotguns don't accidentally set off explosive barrels if you don't directly aim for it.

 

4. (not sure if this has been changed). Venom prevents shield regen. This is when you wish venom last as long as possible.

 

5. Never forget, use your guns/melee to do instant massive damage, not Venom. Save the energy for Molt or Miasma.

 

Venom not delivering enough damage to kill high level grunts.....all other abilities have this problem. You can only upgrade ability to max level 3, while weapon damage booster mod can go all the way to level 10.

 

If Venom is buffed, others will demand other frame's 25en abilities be buffed too. Venom is already quite good.

[Dasmir]

Venom is insanely flexible (You must compare it with other 25en ability).

1. Total damage is high, super for cover seeking enemies like grineers and corpus. You have benefit of fire-n-forget, let you focus on other enemy. The reach is quite good, not many other frame ability out range it. Using it on infected is less beneficial as they always rush you. BUT you have option to burst the Venom spore for small AoE damage when they clustered around.

 

2. Venom is a sure-hit ability. You don't need shoot any projectile and pray that it hits.

 

3. Hard to aim at the spore? Drop a Molt. It cost only 25en. And it draws fire allow you to concentrate. Or the infected will be gathering around it when Venom burst. Molt in air, its an really old tactic. For shotguns, you still need the centre of the target reticle to line up with the spore. This is also reason why shotguns don't accidentally set off explosive barrels if you don't directly aim for it.

 

4. (not sure if this has been changed). Venom prevents shield regen. This is when you wish venom last as long as possible.

 

5. Never forget, use your guns/melee to do instant massive damage, not Venom. Save the energy for Molt or Miasma.

 

Venom not delivering enough damage to kill high level grunts.....all other abilities have this problem. You can only upgrade ability to max level 3, while weapon damage booster mod can go all the way to level 10.

 

If Venom is buffed, others will demand other frame's 25en abilities be buffed too. Venom is already quite good.

 

My venom melts everything even bosses in sec... a lo people forget venom can stacks so you can use to deal massive single damage.

[Grilleds]

One of the most useful skill 1 abilities is considered useless? Buggy maybe, but not useless. I sometimes get more use out of it than Miasma when soloing.

[Worira]

Personally, I'd say it's fine other than the ridiculously broken hit detection on the spores.

[SnokyoDrift]

I have no idea how people think this is a good skill. Slash Dash is a good 1. Sonic Boom is an amazing 1. Mind control is an amazing 1. Freeze is a decent 1. Fireball, Well of LIfe and Shock are trash 1s. Like all purely damaging or majority damaging '1' abilities, it Venom completely useless.

 

Single target with its horrible detection and spreading mechanism

600 damage. This is low on its own, even assuming it's instant.

12 seconds. Anything that will survive for the 12 seconds to see this ability's full effect will be tickled by its damage.

~2 second cast time. My weapons do anything from 3500-9000 dps. It's a no brainer. Even reloading is a better investment of time.

Keep bosses' shields down? Sounds like you have no allies with you or you're ill equipped for the job.

 

Every frame has at least one junk skill. As long as molt works properly, I don't care that much. My Saryn is up to her 6th star and I can't find a use for this skill despite searching in every combat situation possible.

 

Changes that would make it useful:

Remove the DoT (or keep it, makes no difference) and replace it with an increasingly powerful slow. Maybe call it 'Spore' instead. WoF had this happen to it and now it's simply a one-trick-pony relegated to farming low level enemies all day.

Make it much easier to spread (mechanism like volt's 1) and worth the time to apply (ie much faster cast).

Then, make it so that Contagion afflicted blades will apply Venom to everything you hit. Two trash tier abilities turned into decent situational ones.

 

DO NOT increase the dps and call it a day because it will remain a trash skill for a little longer, but it will also be borderline OP in the low levels. WoF had this happen to it and is now relegated to farming low level enemies all day.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Tryysaeder

[Winterbraid]

Eh, I've actually been using Venom tons while leveling up my new Saryn and a bunch of close-range type weapons. It's a pretty decent alternative to a sniper weapon when you don't have one, due to its crazy range and the 'fire and forget' mechanic. Sure it's not that useful when you have maxed out weapons or against bosses or high level enemies, but that's a problem with scaling and progression mechanics, not the skill itself. (I.e. I'd rather have enemy health increases and weapon mods toned down, not abilities buffed.)