Better Synergy For Radial Javelin?

[PikeOrShield]

All of Excals moves have synergy (Blind makes Slash Dash and EB stronger, EB makes dash stronger)...except for Radial Javelin.  The only reason its not on the Dev's list for underused abilities is because it gets spammed in Draco.

 

I think that Radial Javelins damage should do increased damage to blinded enemies and javelins should count towards the melee combo counter.  Why? It adds some much needed scaling to a rather underused ability.

 

Now I know this idea has come out before, and tons of people threw a fit for 2 reasons:

1-If you don't like it, don't use it.

2-It does sssooo much damages on the Drako. Would make OP.

 

So before anyone posts something dumb, here are the counter arguments:

1-If you don't like it, don't use it.  Sorry I don't love EB as much as you do.  I appreciate some variety, thank you very much.

 

2-It does sssooo much damages on the Drako. Would make OP.  Going to split this into 2 sections.

 

Blind- You need a very specific (and tight) build to run Draco with RJ as your main killing tool (I'm guilty of it too, so I know).  You need range, power strength, and efficiency.  That means you use Transient Fortitude, Blind Rage, and Fleeting Expertise along with the normal efficiency and strength mods.  Transient and Fleeting kill your duration to 12.5% (2.625s) and you only get 12 Javelins...go rethink your life choices as your team rage quits.  You also need a trinity to EV everything so you don't devour your energy pool casting RJ, are you really going to take the time and energy to cast a blind?

Melee Counter- If you think javelins counting towards the melee combo counter would change much while farming, then you clearly don't understand the concept of camping (and your teammates probably hate you).  You only have 12 javelins, so you don't exactly get massive gains in the melee department, and the point of RJ builds is to camp while casting one ability, not go ax crazy and try to melee things.

 

Thanks for reading

-Pike

[marshmellory]

i believe the augment for radial javelin already makes it count towards the melee counter

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

i believe the augment for radial javelin already makes it count towards the melee counter

No, it only increases melee damage outright.

 

Besides, if we need an augment to make RJ worth using, then there's something wrong...

[PikeOrShield]

i believe the augment for radial javelin already makes it count towards the melee counter

 

No, it does not, but it kinda does (60% damage increase for 12 seconds is nothing to scoff at).  I am talking about the normal combo counter in the lower right corner when you equip melee.  Surging Dash (slash Dash augment) does increase you combo counter though.

[Epsik-kun]

I think that Radial Javelins damage should do increased damage to blinded enemies and javelins should count towards the melee combo counter.  Why? It adds some much needed scaling to a rather underused ability.

 

Now I know this idea has come out before, and tons of people threw a fit for 2 reasons:

1-If you don't like it, don't use it.

2-It does sssooo much damages on the Drako. Would make OP.

While I'm all up for RJ having more synergy with Excal's skillset, let me tell you what's wrong with your suggestion:

1. RJ isn't used exclusively in Draco. As the strongest large AoE map clearer in the game, it is also used in various prolonged Defences. Meaning, while for Draco giving RJ a way to increase damage ultimately won't change much, for T4D it would be a drastic change. As of now RJ Excalibur in a proper squad can speedrun 40 waves of T4D easily and 60 waves with some effort, but still faster than any other alternatives.

And while there'll be indeed little to no point in using RB prior to RJ in Draco itself, it will be used in T4D starting around wave 15~20 and RB duration would more than suffice.

Also, no, Trin can perfectly sustain RJ Excalibur.

2. While adding melee counter that doesn't affect RJ itself seems like a fun idea, the problem is - that would be a pretty much useless change unless Excal would be simultaneously tweaked to get an access to combo counter.

Because as of now, Excal can't use Body Count to prolong combo counter duration, and having only three seconds of it renders it pretty much useless for everything save for killing a level 100+ armored targets, as it's harder for Excalibur to sustain a combo than for other frames, given his melee range is pretty short and waves don't give you a combo.

So you'll end up with an option of using RJ every 2 seconds to sustain your combo, which isn't a thing you can actually afford given RJ base cost. Neither it's a good design decision.

You will have an option of dropping EBlade and going with a regualar melee, however I have to say it won't ultimately change anything, as you can just stack the same combo length on the same enemy group using regular attacks. And making the skill benefit regular melee while completely ditching EBlade isn't a good design decision either.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[PikeOrShield]

 

While I'm all up for RJ having more synergy with Excal's skillset, let me tell you what's wrong with your suggestion:

1. RJ isn't used exclusively in Draco. As the strongest large AoE map clearer in the game, it is also used in various prolonged Defences. Meaning, while for Draco giving RJ a way to increase damage ultimately won't change much, for T4D it would be a drastic change. As of now RJ Excalibur in a proper squad can speedrun 40 waves of T4D easily and 60 waves with some effort, but still faster than any other alternatives.

And while there'll be indeed little to no point in using RB prior to RJ in Draco itself, it will be used in T4D starting around wave 15~20 and RB duration would more than suffice.

Also, no, Trin can perfectly sustain RJ Excalibur.

2. While adding melee counter that doesn't affect RJ itself seems like a fun idea, the problem is - that would be a pretty much useless change unless Excal would be simultaneously tweaked to get an access to combo counter.

Because as of now, Excal can't use Body Count to prolong combo counter duration, and having only three seconds of it renders it pretty much useless for everything save for killing a level 100+ armored targets, as it's harder for Excalibur to sustain a combo than for other frames, given his melee range is pretty short and waves don't give you a combo.

So you'll end up with an option of using RJ every 2 seconds to sustain your combo, which isn't a thing you can actually afford given RJ base cost. Neither it's a good design decision.

You will have an option of dropping EBlade and going with a regualar melee, however I have to say it won't ultimately change anything, as you can just stack the same combo length on the same enemy group using regular attacks. And making the skill benefit regular melee while completely ditching EBlade isn't a good design decision either.

 

 

 

Nice wall.

1-Draco, T4D, or any other High level mission you need to build RJ for, an RJ build does not work well with Radial Blind since the blind duration is too short :P.  If you think a 2.6 second blind is worth it then something is wrong.  You only need more damage if you are not one-shotting enemies with your Javelins.  If that's the case I would suggest casting RJ twice if the idea is to spam it.  Also, I never said Trinity could not sustain an RJ build, to the contrary, I said you needed a Trin to sustain an RJ build.

 

2-Why does everything have to be about EB?  What's wrong with actual melee being encouraged on a melee frame?

[Epsik-kun]

Nice wall.

1-Draco, T4D, or any other High level mission you need to build RJ for, an RJ build does not work well with Radial Blind since the blind duration is too short :P.  If you think a 2.6 second blind is worth it then something is wrong.  You only need more damage if you are not one-shotting enemies with your Javelins.  If that's the case I would suggest casting RJ twice if the idea is to spam it.  Also, I never said Trinity could not sustain an RJ build, to the contrary, I said you needed a Trin to sustain an RJ build.

 

2-Why does everything have to be about EB?  What's wrong with actual melee being encouraged on a melee frame?

1. RJ faces some troubles killing Eximus enemies. After wave 25 of T4D it is often faster to just EBlade few left Eximus enemies, than to RJ them. RB provides x4 damage boost via stealth modifiers. Minimal duration RB is more than enough to cast RJ twice in a row which would equal casting it 8 times normally - more than worth it to kill tanky eximus. So, no, RB is never "too short".

 

2. Because it has to. EBlade is Excalibur's ultimate - his apogee, making other skills promote you to ditch this skill is a terrible design decision. You may do it yourself, if you personally don't like Exalted Blade, but it shouldn't be directly supported by the actual game.

[Hypernaut1]

RJ javelin should cause bleed damage, like maim. Its a virtual sword impaling enemies, it's purpose should be to make them bleed.

This makes it useful against armored enemies and fits the theme. Right now its just a weak aoe stun which feels redundant when you can just blind instead.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Ahm...combo counter on rj=litteraly a boni for 1 eb wave..this augument works towards his synergy as he is unable to use combos. Yeah, so does surging dash but you can keep it going by slash dashing trough crowds. I like the idea of stealth influence but trading damage for combos would be quite the downgrade.

[Epsik-kun]

There was a more interesting idea of RJ "discharging" combo counter. So, you stack up a combo, use RJ - combo counter sets to zero, but RJ itself receives a boost for this one cast.

This way it doesn't affect RJ build in any way, might be used while EBlading and gives a weird option for non-EBlade melee build.

 

The question is, what kind of a boost? Probably direct multiplier goes to the max amount of targets and range, while doubled goes to the damage.

[Akenatu]

rj better synergy...with other frames :D

[PikeOrShield]

 

1. RJ faces some troubles killing Eximus enemies. After wave 25 of T4D it is often faster to just EBlade few left Eximus enemies, than to RJ them. RB provides x4 damage boost via stealth modifiers. Minimal duration RB is more than enough to cast RJ twice in a row which would equal casting it 8 times normally - more than worth it to kill tanky eximus. So, no, RB is never "too short".

 

2. Because it has to. EBlade is Excalibur's ultimate - his apogee, making other skills promote you to ditch this skill is a terrible design decision. You may do it yourself, if you personally don't like Exalted Blade, but it shouldn't be directly supported by the actual game.

 

 

 

Do you even math? OR play Excal?

 

RJ has a cast time of ~1s and a post animation of ~2.5s. http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Radial_Javelin

1s+2.5s=3.5s

With a blind of 2.6s you get one cast of RJ on 12 blinded enemies before your blind wears off :P:P:P:P.

Now lets say you also run a max rank Natural Talent as well: (Base Time)/(1 + 0.50) = 2/3 of Base Time.  http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Natural_Talent

 

So you cast your 2.6s blind and immediately follow that up with 2 RJs.  (3.5)/(1+0.50)=2.333333s.  You still have 0.325 seconds before the blind wears off to cast your next RJ.  So initial cast time of (1s)/(1+0.50)=0.666666s.  you are about .3 seconds late and you are still wrong.

 

Oh, and stop worshiping EB, do you see everyone building Mag for Crush? Or Rhino for Stomp?  Why are you so convinced that Excalibur needs the crutch of EB?

 

*had to edit cause I broke some forum rules by mocking you.  Sorry.  And always remember "knowledge is power!"

Edited February 8, 2016 by PikeOrShield

[Epsik-kun]

Do you even math? OR play Excal?

 

 

*had to edit cause I broke some forum rules by mocking you.  Sorry.  And always remember "knowledge is power!"

Indeed, do I?

 

Or maybe you should check it yourself before acting ignorant and stupid, because this is what you are doing right now.

[PikeOrShield]

Indeed, do I?

 

Or maybe you should check it yourself before acting ignorant and stupid, because this is what you are doing right now.

 

Well, I get the EB crutch now...and you still can't math:P:P:P:P:P:P:P.  I like how you edited out the bit where I corrected you.

 

and the Excal bit at the end was sarcasm.  I know you play Excal or you probably would not argue so vehemently.  Does everything have to be labeled these days?

[RealPandemonium]

I don't think RJ needs to be any stronger, and I definitely don't think it needs to make EB any stronger.  RJ is pretty good as far as direct damage powers go, outside of Saryn/Ember who are a step or two above.  It's cheap, spammable, has really long range, deals a range of damage types, and has some CC tacked onto it.  I would support making it more interesting than the vanilla nuke it is now, but OP is suggesting number buffs.

 

What if they made RJ launch actual projectiles again, and made them carry enemies to the walls/floors, flinging and damaging all enemies in their path on the way and stapling them to the surface once they reach it?  Similar to how RJ originally was, but actually polished and fixed instead of abandoned for a lazy, generic nuke with minimal effort involved.  You could cast from high up to pin enemies to the floor, or line up horizontal casts to do big AOE damage to crowds of enemies and fling them away.  The potential is huge; what we have now is one of the saddest parts of WF and a bitter reminder of DE's neglect of polish in design after 2014.  

[Epsik-kun]

"corrected"

 

Now I edited out everything where you sound stupid. Do you like it too?

Anyway, had a thought of wiki not having 100% correct information ever went through your mind? You can get two RJs in during Radial Blind stun period and at least three during stealth modifier period, which are different time intervals, but of course how can you possibly know it when it isn't written on wiki. 

And it takes two minutes to check, but no - you not only "can't math", you can't common sense.

 

PS Apparently, medical terms considered cursing here.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[PikeOrShield]

 

"corrected"

Now I edited out everything where you sound stupid. Do you like it too?

Anyway, had a thought of wiki not having 100% correct information ever went through your mind? You can get two RJs in during Radial Blind stun period and at least three during stealth modifier period, which are different time intervals, but of course how can you possibly know it when it isn't written on wiki. 

And it takes two minutes to check, but no - you not only "can't math", you can't common sense.

 

PS Apparently, medical terms considered cursing here.

 

 

Sounds cool, can you get a vid? would like to share it.

[Epsik-kun]

Sounds cool, can you get a vid? would like to share it.

Oh, god. I actually can, but I won't. Do it yourself.

[PikeOrShield]

Oh, god. I actually can, but I won't. Do it yourself.

 

No really.  Not in the wiki+no one ever mentions it=sounds like a bug.  The dev's might even reward you :).

[Epsik-kun]

No really.  Not in the wiki+no one ever mentions it=sounds like a bug.  The dev's might even reward you :).

RJ was changed ages ago, information on activation speed was never updated, but I think everyone knows that RJ doesn't take almost 4 seconds to cast. NT RJ has total casting time of about one second. RB effect lasts for the duration stated on the ability page, however stealth modifier bonus is applied until "stunned" animation is completed, which takes longer.

So, let's say you go close to an enemy cast RB and follow with two RJs. If you melee enemy immediately after, you won't get a finisher, but you'll be able to land a few stealth-bonus hits.

[PikeOrShield]

 

RJ was changed ages ago, information on activation speed was never updated, but I think everyone knows that RJ doesn't take almost 4 seconds to cast. NT RJ has total casting time of about one second. RB effect lasts for the duration stated on the ability page, however stealth modifier bonus is applied until "stunned" animation is completed, which takes longer.

So, let's say you go close to an enemy cast RB and follow with two RJs. If you melee enemy immediately after, you won't get a finisher, but you'll be able to land a few stealth-bonus hits.

 

 

I know the cast is about 1s, but the cool-down is what makes it longer.  I'll play test it.  You have a good night, I'm going to bed.