Now that there's (MORE!) timetraveling, can we travel back in time and kill "Lotus"? Specters of Rails Updated

[folklore504]

5 minutes ago, Kaisty said:

---Snip---

As for the whole "without Lotus, the Sentients win" you do forget that if Natah was up and killed off before she could even start her mission and the Tenno actually completed theirs correctly, there would be no Sentients to worry about.

Also, unless the Sentients can overcome the infested, they would have one heck of a fight on their hands because the Infested adapts to organic and inorganic matter. For all we know, the main reason why the Sentients don't show up yet in the Sol system is because they don't have a way to wipe out the infested thoroughly and without getting infected themselves.

Snip----

The infested were originally unleashed by the Orokin to combat the Sentients, and that failed horrifically.  The Tenno with warframes were eventually used because they could not be subverted to the Sentient benefit technologically speaking.

[(PSN)Lowk721]

5 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

No, they have always been looking for Warframes to figure out the tech and use it. Just like the Corpus

The lore states Grineer were looking to kill Tenno. They got the runner up prize of destroying(killing?) warframes, part/blueprints are just a 2nd prize. Vor was really the only one actually interested in studying them and look how that turned out for him

Spoiler

 

Yelled at, demoted, and we're reminded they just want the Tenno dead.

Edited March 23, 2016 by (PS4)Lowk721

[Mak_Gohae]

On 3/12/2016 at 11:11 PM, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

You don't have to have to go back to a person's creation to kill them in the present. Them dying at any point between then and now works.

Ok...dying at any point later is not an issue with going back and changing a point. If that happens it happens.

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And who would the Tenno trust? Who would hide and defend them?

Given that no one figured out what the Warframe and Tenno are.... there is no need for defending anyone.

And we would maybe leave a handful of tenno awake for a few years at a time to keep an eye on stuff.

 

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Steel Meridian is made from the cloning process. If they fix the Grineer so they don't decay they don't have a need for the same process they do. Hence you've just kept the those guys from ever being born.

We could have the Grineer be good under tenno rule. And then the Meridian become Rebels that dont like us. Basically the same exact story but hating different people in charge.

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Being in charge doesn't stop people from pirating or looting. Especially if no one cares about what the Tenno have to say. It's not about the warframes. They're were people pirating and looting just in general and a giant Orokin Moon is a pretty tempting target regardless if they know the tenno or their warframes were on it.

No one knew the moon was in the void.

 

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Sounds like you want a completely different story and characters then. Which again is s***ing on the one DE took the time to start crafting.

 

You  mean the one they have changed constantly from update to update including the idea that tenno now are kids hanging out and playing in their ships?

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And none of them have the Knowledge Lotus had because they were asleep. So they wouldn't know what to do to ensure that everything happens as it is supposed to. Meaning they've potentially killed off everyone in the present.

You are really stuck on this "killing people" idea, arent you?

This is fiction, no one has to die if the writers dont want to.

On 3/12/2016 at 4:53 PM, Littlerift said:

 

Why do you keep going back pages to find a new quote to argue with?

 

 

I come to this thread once a day on average. I go back to the last time i was reading it and reply to the posts that were made after mines at that point.

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Firstly, the game wasn't sold to you at all, it's free. Secondly, this is exactly the same situation as ME3, the devs of both games wrote a plot that some people in the community disagree with. The only real difference is that in ME3 Bioware had promised a fulfilling ending that took account of what you had done previously, whereas in Warframe the devs simply changed their mind about the boring, stupid, cliché of 'hurr durr space power armour' and went with something that they clearly felt was more fulfilling or opened up better opportunities for storylines and quests in the future.

Lulz, " the game wasnt sold cause it's free." The semantics.

How about if we use the word promoted? Is that better for you?

 

And no it's not at all on any degree like ME3. In ME3 people simply didnt like the ending. That's it.

With this game the makers PROMOTED the story that the tenno wore the frame then changed it later on.

The ME3 wasnt about a change in storyline.
 

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And finally, the experience of playing the game hasn't changed remotely, and before The Second Dream the story of Warframe was very minimal, and as such I find it hard to believe that anybody played (or plays) the game for the story.

It's not minimal at all. It's TREMENDOUS.

Do you remember the The Gradivus Dilemma?

The choice there, AS TOLD TO US BY LOTUS, was to pick between saving colonist or saving tenno.

There was NO tenno to save because the tenno were chilling in the moon.

Lotus lied to us and let a bunch of colonist die!

That whole event is now messed up because of this new story.

 

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All I can think of now is how cringeworthy it would have been if the Warframe had taken the helmet off and revealed a chisel-jawed, balding meathead with a five o'clock shadow, which is evidently what half of the people who cry 'Eww children' (even though the Tenno are blatantly not children) actually wanted. Energy Tenno would have been a better alternative to that, although it would have meant that the Tenno was completely safe and that there was no threat in the reveal whatsoever. Characters are more interesting when they have a weakness, and there are very few sci-fi games that actually provide us with characters with even a shred of weakness: most are just mary-sues in power armour.

Yes anime faces below the helmets would be awful. But tenno were never described at that. They were described as twisted, Steve in that vid said they are something, and the corpus always called them eye-less.

And being energy doesnt mean you dont have any weaknesses.

 

 

On 3/12/2016 at 5:24 PM, Aimop95 said:

The problem with OP repeatedly stating that the DE had originally advertised Warframe as "Suits we wear", is that it also references a time when story telling clearly was the least of DE's problems with that iteration of Warframe. Now that the game mechanics has sufficiently been refined enough to focus on a story, DE did just that. They decided to take their general idea and refine it into the Operators we currently now are.

 

There's a difference between having a setup, a story bible, and having the details done.

The basic story should have been there from the start. What you are saying with this statement is that they didnt have anything at all. And if they didnt they should have told us this instead of promoting something that wasnt there.

This, by the way, makes it even worst cause that means they were lying.

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Accusing DE of changing a story, that at its best (prior to the last several major updates), was a single statement on the website, is like bashing on a chief for not making a toffee apple when he makes caramelized apple pie, just because you saw the chief pick up an apple and some caramel.

I linked a video here from a stream where DE_Steve mentions this, there's another dev stream where they say they drew warframes with their helmets off showing the tenno . This wasnt just a line on the website, this is how the story was being described to be on all levels. Hek, the Ex Prime lore pretty sure still has this in it.

[TheDubsteppingNinja]

Not sure if anyone has posted something like this yet but:

Like seriously, why are people still arguing this......

[Littlerift]

2 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Ok...dying at any point later is not an issue with going back and changing a point. If that happens it happens.

Given that no one figured out what the Warframe and Tenno are.... there is no need for defending anyone.

And we would maybe leave a handful of tenno awake for a few years at a time to keep an eye on stuff.

 

Everyone would know who the Tenno are because the Moon wasn't in the Void and it would be impossible for the Tenno to keep their true form a secret.forever.

 

2 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

We could have the Grineer be good under tenno rule. And then the Meridian become Rebels that dont like us. Basically the same exact story but hating different people in charge.

 

Why would the Grineer be good? They turned bad long before the Tenno were sent to bed.

 

2 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

No one knew the moon was in the void.

 

If Lotus was killed then the Moon wouldn't be in the Void.

 

2 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Lulz, " the game wasnt sold cause it's free." The semantics.

How about if we use the word promoted? Is that better for you?

 

Is claiming that free items weren't sold really that controversial?

 

2 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

And no it's not at all on any degree like ME3. In ME3 people simply didnt like the ending. That's it.

With this game the makers PROMOTED the story that the tenno wore the frame then changed it later on.

The ME3 wasnt about a change in storyline.

 

People weren't upset with the ending because they didn't like it, they were upset because Bioware had promised that the ending would take into account every action you had made throughout the trilogy. It's exactly the same: a writer/developer changed their plan and a few loud mouths in the community got pissy about it.

 

2 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

It's not minimal at all. It's TREMENDOUS.

Do you remember the The Gradivus Dilemma?

The choice there, AS TOLD TO US BY LOTUS, was to pick between saving colonist or saving tenno.

There was NO tenno to save because the tenno were chilling in the moon.

Lotus lied to us and let a bunch of colonist die!

That whole event is now messed up because of this new story.

 

And that changes the gameplay experience how?

 

2 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Yes anime faces below the helmets would be awful. But tenno were never described at that. They were described as twisted, Steve in that vid said they are something, and the corpus always called them eye-less.

And being energy doesnt mean you dont have any weaknesses.

 

Corpus call them eye-less because the Warframes don't have eyes, it's nothing to do with whatever is inside the Warframe: only a select few people in the universe have any idea what is inside the suit.

 

And being energy renders you unkillable by just about any conventional weaponry. You know, it's funny because earlier in the thread you argued that there's no sense of tension now because it doesn't matter if you die in a mission because you're safe in your ship, and yet now you're promoting the idea that it would have been better if the Tenno were made of energy, which would make them completely immune to anything the Grineer or Infested have been shown to have.

 

2 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

There's a difference between having a setup, a story bible, and having the details done.

The basic story should have been there from the start. What you are saying with this statement is that they didnt have anything at all. And if they didnt they should have told us this instead of promoting something that wasnt there.

This, by the way, makes it even worst cause that means they were lying.

I linked a video here from a stream where DE_Steve mentions this, there's another dev stream where they say they drew warframes with their helmets off showing the tenno . This wasnt just a line on the website, this is how the story was being described to be on all levels. Hek, the Ex Prime lore pretty sure still has this in it.

 

Perhaps you should try to write a novel, or even a novella. It might help you understand the fact that the formation and solidification of a story never comes before you start writing. This is part of the reason why almost all games have awful stories, by the way, because the writers are expected to have finished the story before the coders can even get started, which doesn't work all that well when you've got a large publisher controlling the budget and demanding that the game meets deadlines.

[Aimop95]

8 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

There's a difference between having a setup, a story bible, and having the details done.

The basic story should have been there from the start. What you are saying with this statement is that they didnt have anything at all. And if they didnt they should have told us this instead of promoting something that wasnt there.

This, by the way, makes it even worst cause that means they were lying.

I linked a video here from a stream where DE_Steve mentions this, there's another dev stream where they say they drew warframes with their helmets off showing the tenno . This wasnt just a line on the website, this is how the story was being described to be on all levels. Hek, the Ex Prime lore pretty sure still has this in it.

My statement says that the most story/lore/background info they had given us was at best a paragraph on the website for each faction. Other than that, we knew nothing about the world we lived in aside from the fact that we controlled Warframes and killed people. My statement does not say they had nothing.

Furthermore, my statement points out that despite the lack of story, DE still needed to draw people in to play Warframe, and as they state earlier in your vid, they preferred to not answer the question (of who/what are the tenno) DIRECTLY due clearly not having a set story laid out. So DE simply advertised as vaugly as possible and left it at that until proper attention could be placed on the story.

The quote you picked out in that vid, is prefaced by DE stating that they did not want to answer the question concerning the Tenno. Thus making any further information after that unreliable at best, as DE clearly did not have any definitive idea where they wanted to go with the story.

Like I said before, they only had ingredients and just shook them in our faces. Both we and they did not know what they wanted just yet.

But regardless, recent devstreams have clearly painted the picture and story DE wants to go with and have written out, not one devstream 2 years ago where there were bigger issues to deal with than story/lore. 

[DakotaStorm]

OP clearly has an unhealthy obsession with the lotus, mommy issues maybe? 

But seriously, if you hate the story that much, just quit playing. DE isn't going to change just because you don't like it.

[Mak_Gohae]

On 3/12/2016 at 5:42 PM, BornWithTeeth said:

 

Regarding what you're asking for, Mak_Gohae.....what you're doing in this thread, and in other threads in the past, is writing fanfiction which you keep insisting is 'better' than what the game really is. And people keep disagreeing with you, and most likely will continue to disagree with you.

I'm making a suggestion, you know, like 85% of the threads made on this board?

And i never said it was better.

On 3/12/2016 at 6:11 PM, Zdeadfallout said:

Don't forget the lotus is HOT !!!.....

Margulis is hotter, as seen by Saryn.

On 3/12/2016 at 6:50 PM, BornWithTeeth said:

I dunno if you can really say "I'm interested in Warframe for the lore..." if that statement ends with "...and that's why I want to change literally everything about the lore except the power armour. The power armour is cool."

Only Lotus and gamer kids.

On 3/16/2016 at 0:56 PM, Aimop95 said:

How are they making her look like a definitive bad guy? Holding secrets isn't exactly a crime. Nor does it make her evil.

She kept us alive cause she wanted babies. That's sick.

Plus she has been lying constantly about us. Not saying anything is one thing, lying because she doesnt want to say anything is another.

Like i just mentioned above, during the Gradivus Dilemma event the tenno chose between saving colonist or saving tennos. No tenno was ever in danger. 

[Aimop95]

1 minute ago, Mak_Gohae said:

I'm making a suggestion, you know, like 85% of the threads made on this board?

And i never said it was better.

Margulis is hotter, as seen by Saryn.

Only Lotus and gamer kids.

She kept us alive cause she wanted babies. That's sick.

Plus she has been lying constantly about us. Not saying anything is one thing, lying because she doesnt want to say anything is another.

Like i just mentioned above, during the Gradivus Dilemma event the tenno chose between saving colonist or saving tennos. No tenno was ever in danger. 

I don't see how becoming compassionate is a sick thing. Sick would be the lotus using us to conquer the origin system. As far as I can currently tell. The Tenno are in no position to take over anything. The most we've done right now is disrupt military targets. Supposedly we assassinate high profile targets, but the grineer/corpus empires are still going incredibly strong.

also, Tenno and warframes are different. Were we saving warframes? Or Tenno? Because Tenno are operators, and if those pods we saved were Tenno, then we did save lives. 

Furthermore, from a military point of view, preventing tech that would greatly increase enemy capability from falling into enemy hands is arguably better than saving colonists. I'd argue that even if we knew about the true nature of warframes, the event would have still turned out the same. No one wants grineer having warframe tech. Both us and the colonists they exploit.

 

[(PSN)Lowk721]

23 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Ok...dying at any point later is not an issue with going back and changing a point. If that happens it happens.

Dying at any point before, the fruther backk the worse, can have affect how events play out a vastly change things.

23 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Given that no one figured out what the Warframe and Tenno are.... there is no need for defending anyone.

And we would maybe leave a handful of tenno awake for a few years at a time to keep an eye on stuff.

That like encountering a door with guards on it. Even of no one knows what they are someone is going to wonder, "what exactly are these Tenno guarding"

23 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

We could have the Grineer be good under tenno rule. And then the Meridian become Rebels that dont like us. Basically the same exact story but hating different people in charge.

The Grineer didn't want to go back to being under someone else's rule for good or bad. They want to be free and be the top dogs. Tenno would be the Top dogs so that is going to lead to theem clashing.

The Meridian won't even exist even if they could get them under control and turn them into "good" Grineer. The Meridian came about due to defects and that they were against the cruel empire the Grineer were. You take away either of those things and there is no Meridian at all, good or bad. 

23 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

No one knew the moon was in the void.

Lotus was the one who hid the moon both physically and historically. No more Lotus and the moon is out in the open, shiny and golden.

23 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

You  mean the one they have changed constantly from update to update including the idea that tenno now are kids hanging out and playing in their ships?

You are acting as if Warframe had a story rather loose bits of vague lore here and there that could be twisted via wordplay into several things. Yes, they even added the kids in the lore build up process. It doesn't matter if anyone figured it out. The element was still in the lore that they could have drawn on. 

What they have been changing is fixing stuff as they build up. Making the bosses/character/faces more dynamic, placing in various other elements, adding bits of ground work for an actual story(world building), populating the world with character. They stated they were going to start working on lore/story and Natah was basically the start to the official main part with Second Dream being the actual payoff. 

On 3/24/2016 at 6:56 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

You are really stuck on this "killing people" idea, arent you?

This is fiction, no one has to die if the writers dont want to.

Not without adding a bunch of pointless convolution to the entire story. What you are suggesting isn't some small thing, your taking out a major character integral to how Warframe's history has happened up until now. They would have to reestablish who and what has changed or didn't change essentially, wiping away a large amount of world and story/world building that they have spent so long setting up. 

Your asking them to do more work, forget they're old work, and change things from their creative decision. Killing off perfectly fine characters is not just what I'm stuck on. The story they built and the work that they put into it is. 

On 3/24/2016 at 6:56 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

With this game the makers PROMOTED the story that the tenno wore the frame then changed it later on.

They promoted back in the games infancy. At this point they were focused more on the game an less on the story.

On 3/24/2016 at 6:56 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

It's not minimal at all. It's TREMENDOUS.

Do you remember the The Gradivus Dilemma?

The choice there, AS TOLD TO US BY LOTUS, was to pick between saving colonist or saving tenno.

There was NO tenno to save because the tenno were chilling in the moon.

Lotus lied to us and let a bunch of colonist die!

That whole event is now messed up because of this new story.

They still haven't gone over what happens to Tenno who only have one frames that are destroyed. Or how badly the event of a warframe's destruction could be while in the second dream states. Or if the Tenno's brains could be adversely effected by the act.

Until then there is just as much an equal chance that the tenno could have died. Even disregarding death there is the fact that they can still feel through the warframe. Meaning that they could be tortured because they are stuck in their the only Frame they had. So either your saving them from dying or your saving them imprisoned/tortured. Take your pick.

On 3/24/2016 at 6:56 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

Yes anime faces below the helmets would be awful. But tenno were never described at that. They were described as twisted, Steve in that vid said they are something, and the corpus always called them eye-less.

And being energy doesnt mean you dont have any weaknesses.

Twisted doesn't have to mean physically gross. The Tenno were turned into orphaned crippled psychic wizards. Warped mentaility aside, they still fit the bill for twisted. 

Eyeless is an insult based on warframes. Remember, you noted yourself no one knew what they actually were.

And an energy being is even worst then a child. You got people complaining now about how there is no suspense now and the child at least has something tangible that can be threatened and is constantly hurt.

On 3/24/2016 at 6:56 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

The basic story should have been there from the start. What you are saying with this statement is that they didnt have anything at all. And if they didnt they should have told us this instead of promoting something that wasnt there.

 They didn't have the resources, manpower, mo-cap, and etc they have now to make the some of the narrative choices they eventually came up with. They were focused more on creating a playable game so they could use resource they eventually get to continue improving it. Meanwhile sprinkling some vague flavor lore that they could twist into whatever they want later on when they could actually do something cool story wise. 

[(PSN)Lowk721]

6 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

I'm making a suggestion, you know, like 85% of the threads made on this board?

He's kind of right. Some of the stufff you are saying does sound like something out of fanfiction. Like an alternate universe or something where somehow nothing changed, everyone is happy, and alive in the present despite the vast changes in the past without any thought about how those changes would have actually impacted history.

6 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

She kept us alive cause she wanted babies. That's sick.

That was the catalyst for her change. However you are ignoring the implications of some of here other action and outright neglecting to mention how useful she has been up until now.

6 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Plus she has been lying constantly about us. Not saying anything is one thing, lying because she doesnt want to say anything is another.

Like i just mentioned above, during the Gradivus Dilemma event the tenno chose between saving colonist or saving tennos. No tenno was ever in danger. 

Tenno actual second dream was apparently something Margilus developed and for awhile keeping any information about their bodies kept them. 
Also considering how some fan reactions included rejecting the real body and wanting to kill, imagine how an actual person might have felt in that situation.

There is also the case of Tenno being captured. Warframe or no Tenno can feel pain. They have as that Dilemma and Alad V demonstrated, be captured and experimented on, and tortured. In that, she didn't like; the Tenno stuck in the warframe were in danger. Either via possible death or definite torture.

Meaning the other lie was an omission about what she what she was. Which is so much like how crappy some people's real life situation are I shouldn't even need to explain why simplifying to "doesn't want to say anything" is a little messed up. I mean you've got kids being kick out of there homes for being honest about what they actually are.

I bet she would have been scared of reactions exactly like the basis for this entire topic. Seriously Imagine having to tell the people you care for and currently trying to help that you are what they were made to kill. Then having one of them suggest they go back in time to kill you before you even developed emotional attachments. 

Edited March 26, 2016 by (PS4)Lowk721

[Mak_Gohae]

On 3/17/2016 at 8:50 PM, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

Which only the Lotus has access to. If they could just hack sentients to find out where he was he wouldn't be hidden in the first place. Them having a connection doesn't matter without a means of having means to use it.

Dont know what you are saying. We get Lotus, that's the point of the thread, and we use her to find any other possible Sentients. We know where Hunhow is so there's no need for find that out.

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Are you seriously using the excuse the Grineer aren't bad because they are doing the same bad things other people have done in history? Enslaving people is bad, that like a general thing that people have come to recognize.

Im saying that the Grineer are following the standard pattern of human history.

Do you know human history? You, and pretty much every person on the planet, exist in a country that was creating by people taking over. This is the standard.

We also dont actually know how people live under the Grineer because the only info we have comes from a liar.

Steel Meridian doesnt really elaborate on what they do. They just keep saying they are protecting the weak. They look to simply be clones that just dont want to follow the rules set by the Queens.

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As for the rest of that, the lore is pretty clear, they tried to take the Tenno out before they even woke up. They thought that the Tenno were in the warframes so by taking out warframes they thought they were actually doing ssomething.

"From the chaos of the Collapse, they emerged, Violent hordes of decaying clones, overflowing from their toxic womb. They flood the Origin System, swallowing colonies whole.
The twin Queens, the SISTERS, have devised a plan to transform the scattered colonies into an Empire across the planets.
The Sisters have sent their most trusted brood on a vital quest - the TENNO, hidden and asleep, must never awaken."

"The Grineer are a decaying race of militarized humans motivated by fear and envy. They have targeted the Tenno for extinction."

They started it by trying to catch the Tenno napping and countered by them waking up and not actually being in the warframe. Tenno philosophy seems to be "Don't start no s**t, it won't be no s**t". And the Grineer were all about the starting.

 

I answered this already.

We dont know how this started. "Lotus" being crazy about wanting kids could've been the one that instigated hostilities. She could've been the first to started killing. Or, it could be that they see the tenno as betrayers like the Corpus which still falls on "Lotus" for having the tenno kill the orokin.

 

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You can swap out hitler with any other dictator, supervillain trying to take over the world; how about Red Skull. Nobody want the people enslaving everything they can to have even more power. Especially using our tools, or friend, or pets, or whatever a warframe is.

Everyone has a police force, come on.

 

 

On 3/18/2016 at 11:55 PM, Aimop95 said:

OP should probably find a new game with a story that is to his liking. Cause all his hopes and dreams for this game's plot has the highest probability of never occurring. For both in-universe reasons and story-telling reasons.

 

 

Given that pretty much every major update there's a retcon on established lore, why would you think there would be no story changes in the future based on " in-universe reasons and story-telling reasons. "?

The pattern here is that DE will continue to change the story and NOT that they are not going to.

 

 

On 3/19/2016 at 0:16 AM, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

At this point we aren't even talking about other stories. It simple cause and effect. You've destoryed the line of events that led up to that moment IE you've destoryed the moment itself.

This is a work of fiction.

It doesnt have to follow any outside rules it does not want to.

Dont know why this is hard to understand.

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Actually some of the character in game would have started as colonist. The syndicates and the relays are made up of people who aren't Corpus or Grineer meaning that they are colonist. Also Baro and his mother.

the Tenno story wise care about them so do a few of their allies. Also I'd and others would like to see how the colonist as they are now. You get rid of them now and you've essentially cheated us out of finally getting to see their stories after all this time.

 

When has it been said that the tenno care about the colonist?

When has it been said that they care about anyone?

 

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Yeah, that is how I know they knew that weren't confused about her being Margulis. They are the ones that note that they know Margulis was already dead. And based on their reactions they still don't care that Lotus is a sentient. She's still an ally of the Tenno.

Yeah, and some folks dont care. This is why some people want a bit of a change.

Having some sick machine controlling how a SS develops is not the best setting for some folks.

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Which is a story element that they can cover using her character. They have set the stage for events like her fighting for her freedom and control of herself while trying to screw over hunhow for the Tenno. It would fit perfectly into a beautiful redemption story that actually already ties in with her story. As opposed to

You know how you have redemption from using us as replacement for kids?

Letting us go.

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^This

Your sacrificing a potential story of "personal triumph to help the people she cares about" over "Tenno going back in time to mistreat and kill a person who was basically a slave who found out that she cared for you." Not only is that messed up it goes against the theme of the relationship. Tenno and Lotus share a similar backstory. They escaped their respective masters through each other and work together to fight against people like them.

 

"Lotus" is doing the exact same thing as the orokin but with lies. Lies that cost the life of your precious colonists. Remember that.

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Again, they had an entire war to poke around with Sentients they defeated and couldn't do it. And what do you mean Knows communication? 

Pretty sure the Orokin didnt let the tenno mess around with stuff.

Pretty sure the orokin did it themselves and we dont know the results because they left.

 

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That's not the problem. The problem is that some of the civilians won't like this. To them the Tenno basically committed treason. For good reason mind you but still treason.

They were calling them betrayers because they turned on the Orokin. They had good reasons but from the outside, the Tenno basically committed to all the people who were already well off under under Orokin role. Staying out in the open only gives those people a target for their rage or loss or hated or patriotism which would put the Tenno in the complicated position of having to put down rebellion by the people they we're trying to help.

Well, then, the tenno will always be seen as villains to everyone, arent they?

So screw it!

Quote

Hiding away gave the people generations of time to get over this. Cryosleep was like a count to 10 and take deep breaths for the Origin system. Now really the only people who think of Tenno as betrayers are the extortionist cult that attacks defenseless people, making them okay targets for Tenno justice. Lotus helped the Tenno get away with Treason and the negative reactions of the people.

We have no idea about the general view of your precious colonists.

If both the Orokin and Corpus hate us for screwing up the SS then it's likely that the general idea is the same.

Sure, there are some that dont care but some outsiders mean nothing.

 

Quote

Killing Sentients who want to kill Tenno and the people of the origin system is fine. Doing so at the cost of the possibility of erasing the current timeline, retconning the cool Grineer like Steel Meridian/Clem out of existence, and killing the one sentient who is actually on our side; is not fine. It is very much not cool.

Stuff doesnt have to dramatically change cause...... FICTION!

 

Quote

You realize their are other events beside the Natah and second dream right. She tells you want happens in those, gives you the rundown of the situation, and the situation is normally backed by other sources and character statements. Actually even in second dream how much she says she cares for the Tenno is actually confirmed by Hunhow of all people who believes the only way to get her back on his side is to wipe out the Tenno themselves.

Yeah, we know she wants us as replacement for kids.

That's sick.

Quote

 

The two major lies she does have under her belt do have valid points. She never mentioned what she was because that isn't who she is anymore or wants to be ever again. It's a secret shame and it is easily offended by it as shown when Teshin called her Natah. If a monster doesn't want to be a monster why treat it like one when it is trying to change for the better? especially when it is in the process of helping you. She's like Paarthurnax from skyrim.

The Second Dream lie is messed up, She didn't tell a crucial piece of  personal information. That is the one thing I think she really messed up on. That said, she kept the Tenno's secret weakness and kept them safe this entire time via a complete blackout of information. Then there is the possibility of how horrible it could have gone, even excluding the stalker.

Plus in a way in mirrors her situation. In her mind set she is trying to be something more then what she was. If this was Margulis' line

Dream... not of what you are, but of what you want to be.

Imagine if Lotus had heard that. This is basically the original Tenno mom saying this. OG SPACE MOM 1.0. That is a saying that would've reached the Lotus on a personal level. What if she just wanted to let the Tenno continue living the dream. Like how a parent lies a about Santa and the child believes in a world a lot more wondrous then it actually is. We tell lies and omit truths for more then just personal gain or to hurt. 

 

The only thing the tenno did with that is fight a war to make sure their people wouldn't die.

"Lotus" went a bit farther than that into sick levels that cost the lives of god knows how many of your precious colonists.

 

Quote

 

TL;DR version

Lotus has flaws, everyone does. She doesn't want WHAT she is to determine WHO she wants to be and just wants to help. Her backstory in a ways mirrors elements of the Tenno's backstory and that is why the combo work. They left their own lives behind with each others help for for something new. There dynamic works both story wise as character wise and going back in time to snuff it out is a cruel pointless betrayal of an ally and a valuable asset.

 

Being greedy is a flaw, doing bad things because of greed is a bad thing.

Wanting to be a mother and adopting kids that want mothers is not a flaw. Tricking and lying to people to have kids.... that's a bad thing.
 

Quote

Don't know if I've done this already but thanks for keeping this discussion going. Almost every time I reply it to these type of threads it gets me thinking more and more about the various aspects of the story, like the Tenno/Lotus relation. 

 

You're welcome.

Yes, we should all be happy to discuss all aspects of the game's lore.

[fatpig84]

Killing Lotus aka Natah (basically a Sentient clone infused with Margulis memories and model after Margulis), basically means the another Lotus replaces her.

But Natah replacement will not have the motherly feels or pity for the Tenno kids. 
As a result, we all die, game ends forever woohoo, DE can't make money !

Edited March 27, 2016 by fatpig84

[Aimop95]

14 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Given that pretty much every major update there's a retcon on established lore, why would you think there would be no story changes in the future based on " in-universe reasons and story-telling reasons. "?

The pattern here is that DE will continue to change the story and NOT that they are not going to.

 

DE has retcon'd nothing concerning the operators. The devestream you use as your proof at best proves that once upon a time DE considered  Tenno as Warframes. HOWEVER, they clearly preface your select quote by saying they did not want to actually answer the question of what Tenno actually were, and that the only real hard thing DE knew for certain was that Tenno were once human.

I only need in-universe and story-telling reasons, because anything else is bad story telling. It's like DE releasing a quest called the Third Dream that nullifies the Second Dream by re-establishing Tenno origins. That's bad story telling, because the Second Dream is an incredibly important part of Warframe lore now. 

You seem to desire "consistency" with the story, though as far as I can tell, the story has been incredibly consistent now that DE has firm idea on what they want to do. Any changes to the Tenno's origins NOW after the second dream, would only serve to make the story even less consistent.

As I have already stated before, the story you keep referring too, was an extremely early stage base plot, in a time where DE simply needed some form of literature in order to make the game more relatable to us as players. Now that DE can actually focus on the story, you're complaining about false advertisement, when you saw only the bare bones of a story that could have gone in any direction.

[Evanescent]

Instead of killing Lotus, why isn't anyone considering never letting the original marghulis die?

[folklore504]

1 hour ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Dont know what you are saying. We get Lotus, that's the point of the thread, and we use her to find any other possible Sentients. We know where Hunhow is so there's no need for find that out.

Im saying that the Grineer are following the standard pattern of human history.

Do you know human history? You, and pretty much every person on the planet, exist in a country that was creating by people taking over. This is the standard.

We also dont actually know how people live under the Grineer because the only info we have comes from a liar.

Steel Meridian doesnt really elaborate on what they do. They just keep saying they are protecting the weak. They look to simply be clones that just dont want to follow the rules set by the Queens.

 

 

Everyone has a police force, come on.

 

 

Given that pretty much every major update there's a retcon on established lore, why would you think there would be no story changes in the future based on " in-universe reasons and story-telling reasons. "?

The pattern here is that DE will continue to change the story and NOT that they are not going to.

 

 

This is a work of fiction.

It doesnt have to follow any outside rules it does not want to.

Dont know why this is hard to understand.

When has it been said that the tenno care about the colonist?

When has it been said that they care about anyone?

 

Yeah, and some folks dont care. This is why some people want a bit of a change.

Having some sick machine controlling how a SS develops is not the best setting for some folks.

You know how you have redemption from using us as replacement for kids?

Letting us go.

"Lotus" is doing the exact same thing as the orokin but with lies. Lies that cost the life of your precious colonists. Remember that.

Pretty sure the Orokin didnt let the tenno mess around with stuff.

Pretty sure the orokin did it themselves and we dont know the results because they left.

 

Well, then, the tenno will always be seen as villains to everyone, arent they?

So screw it!

We have no idea about the general view of your precious colonists.

If both the Orokin and Corpus hate us for screwing up the SS then it's likely that the general idea is the same.

Sure, there are some that dont care but some outsiders mean nothing.

 

Stuff doesnt have to dramatically change cause...... FICTION!

 

Being greedy is a flaw, doing bad things because of greed is a bad thing.

Wanting to be a mother and adopting kids that want mothers is not a flaw. Tricking and lying to people to have kids.... that's a bad thing.
 

You're welcome.

Yes, we should all be happy to discuss all aspects of the game's lore.

Colonists interactions with Tenno and Grineer are shown in the Sands of Inaros quest line. 

Spoiler

Baro Ki Teer was originally a colonist from Phobos, but he forgot about that and most of his childhood after his mother and seemingly a fair amount of his villiage was murdered in front of him.  He survived because his mom hid him.  Inaros was a tenno who rebelled against the Orokin after they kept kidnapping children to presumbly turn into more Tenno.  He later died destroying a large infestation that was taking over the planet.

Occasionally while listening to the scanner on the liset, along with some alerts, events, and planet descriptions you will find the grineer massacring non-combatants under even a small suspicion.  As for why killing a main character and not changing much doesn't work really well.  Stories in order to at least be reasonably good, need some sort of internal consistency or rules by which they run by.  Yes, since its fiction it can be changed but if it would alter a settings history drastically, then the current situation would need to alter to suit the new past.  

Right now given what we know of the Orokin, the Tenno would be used for even more horrific actions in order to stabilize their empire and probably locked away afterwards.  A fair amount of the prime codex entries, along with some synthesis entries point towards the Orokin despising and fearing the Tenno.  We only got out of lab experiments, and containment cells because the Orokin were losing the war against the Sentients. 

[Kaisty]

2 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Instead of killing Lotus, why isn't anyone considering never letting the original marghulis die?

Even if the Tenno went back in time to prevent her death, she would probably still die in the end if Natah viewed her as a threat to her original mission (I.E. Infiltrate the Orokin, kill their leaders, kill the Tenno). Without something to polarize the Tenno against the Orokin, they would stay faithful and not stray.

3 hours ago, fatpig84 said:

Killing Lotus aka Natah (basically a Sentient clone infused with Margulis memories and model after Margulis), basically means the another Lotus replaces her.

But Natah replacement will not have the motherly feels or pity for the Tenno kids. 
As a result, we all die, game ends forever woohoo, DE can't make money !

It would only mean replacing if the Tenno going back don't find a way to finish the task that was started. Go back, kill Natah off, then have the Orokin study her remains to create weapons that would obliterate the Sentients, then send the Tenno out to hunt them down till there is nothing left of them. On the upside, the Sentients are gone for good and the Tenno actually complete their mission. Downside.......After we get our "gold star sticker" the Orokin take us out back and "Ol' Yeller" us unless we just up and repeat what we did in the first place (Kill the Orokin Elite, leave the rest to be slaughtered by the Grineer) and then "vanish" from all trace to never return to the Sol system again.

I mean, it isn't likely the Orokin Elite would learn from the Tenno about their mistakes and actually have an alignment change while keeping Margulis alive or something. No that would be out of character for a stereotypical evil empire to actually grow some depth.

[Rounpositron]

Lotus sucks. All hail Hunhow!

[(PSN)Lowk721]

12 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Dont know what you are saying. We get Lotus, that's the point of the thread, and we use her to find any other possible Sentients. We know where Hunhow is so there's no need for find that out.

I'm saying it doesn't matter if we get Lotus. There isn't even a hint that anyone but other Sentient can use the connection they have. Nevermind the fact that there is a hint that Sentient have shown the ability to input their consciousness into another body. Kill one body might just make her move to another. Now the Orokin are dead, the system is in chaos, and the sentient are coming back while everyone is at their weakest.

12 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Im saying that the Grineer are following the standard pattern of human history.

Do you know human history? You, and pretty much every person on the planet, exist in a country that was creating by people taking over. This is the standard.

We also dont actually know how people live under the Grineer because the only info we have comes from a liar.

Grineer were once slaves. They know how bad it feels to be used. Then they went on ahead and did the same thing to everyone else. Now, I can understand that going after some of the Orokin higher ups but they didn't stop there. They repeated a mistake, knowing full well how bad it was and what happened to the last jerks who did it. 
They come from a time period of advancement so far above what we figured out and they purposefully went down the crappiest path they could.

They've had thousands of years to change and be better then the people that enslaved them. They didn't and unless the Steel M. are sign that maybe they are mutating pass that point of acting like a holes; they don't show much sign of stopping.

There are entire organization based around the fact that Corpus and Grineer being horrible empires. There is lore stating they are an oppresive empire given by DE. Baro and his mom are evidence. Lotus is the only person we get info from, she just happens to be voice we hear most.

13 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Steel Meridian doesnt really elaborate on what they do.

DE actually gives us hints of what they do

Led by a battle-hardened Grineer deserter, the Steel Meridian fight a guerrilla war against a vast enemy. They are sworn protectors of what little remains of the colonies.
The Grineer are not often seen as valorous individuals, but time and again members of their leadership have displayed a certain code of honor. Members of Steel Meridian set aside their former allegiances to defend those who cannot defend themselves.

They also have Cordylon drop lore bits that they are who the colonist hire to help defend against raids.

13 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

We dont know how this started. "Lotus" being crazy about wanting kids could've been the one that instigated hostilities. She could've been the first to started killing. Or, it could be that they see the tenno as betrayers like the Corpus which still falls on "Lotus" for having the tenno kill the orokin.

 They literally state how it started. They wanted the Tenno dead before they awakened so there would be nothing to stop them. Which is not actually surprising since they are well aware of what happened to the last empire that liked enslaving and attacking colonist when the Tenno were awake.

14 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

The pattern here is that DE will continue to change the story and NOT that they are not going to.

The pattern is that they just recently started being able to do cinematic quest. Everything before was basically ground work. They haven't retconned much becasue they left most things vague to begin with.

14 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

This is a work of fiction.

It doesnt have to follow any outside rules it does not want to.

Dont know why this is hard to understand.

Cause and effect isn't an outside rule. One,  it's basic story telling. Two, it is how anything happens anywhere. You typing words is the cause. Words showing up is the effect. If you don't type then you haven't typed words. Actions have a reaction, etc etc. These aren't just story elements you see in movies. Do you get what I mean?

Then again there is the multi possibility/multiverse angle where some possibilities spreads off into a separate alternative universe. 

14 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

When has it been said that the tenno care about the colonist?

When has it been said that they care about anyone?

• We were dangerous, broken. Everytime they tried to fix us, someone always got hurt. I wish I could've saved them. I wish I could've taken their fear away.

• I remember everyone was laughing outside an airlock. This kid had a boy by the throat. I didn't think it was funny at all.

• It was a shadow underneath what we did. A sensation of being a victim, of being helpless. I took up the sword to protect those in need.

14 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Well, then, the tenno will always be seen as villains to everyone, arent they?

They aren't. Baro's colony looked up to the Tenno that saved them as a hero. The Arbiters of Hexis beleive Tenno can be more than war machine. Any of the Syndicates don't consider them villains as long as they put in work like everyone else. Tenno don't have to be the villains of the story. I'm betting all the abducted civilians, allies, and good grineer that the Tenno have saved also think fondly of them.

14 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Having some sick machine controlling how a SS develops is not the best setting for some folks.

She doesn't control how they develop, they are and were what they have always been before Lotus even got involved.

14 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

You know how you have redemption from using us as replacement for kids?

Letting us go.

You realize you don't have to do anything she says. She hasn't been forcing the Tenno to do what she says. The narrative doesn't hint that Tenno have to do what she says. She's still going to give you gifts even if you do is hang out with Teshin in the conclave. She's still going to send you alerts if all you do is work for syndicates. 

She let go after awakening us.

15 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

"Lotus" went a bit farther than that into sick levels that cost the lives of god knows how many of your precious colonists.

14 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

"Lotus" is doing the exact same thing as the orokin but with lies. Lies that cost the life of your precious colonists. Remember that.

I've already explained how save Tenno wasn't a lie. The Warframes they find had Tenno in stuck in the via the Second Dream. Not being in them does not exclude them from feeling pain. It funny how your trying to flip it around when the choice is still save the colonist from being enslaved and trying to save what is basically your family from being tortured. 

14 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Pretty sure the Orokin didnt let the tenno mess around with stuff.

Pretty sure the orokin did it themselves and we dont know the results because they left.

And despite the fact NO ONE has been hinted at being able to do anything. So where is your proof that Tenno would?

14 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

We have no idea about the general view of your precious colonists

Corpus weren't the organization they are now. They were just people trying to get by. 

14 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Stuff doesnt have to dramatically change cause...... FICTION!

Being fiction doesn't excluded it from having coherent story. Going,"the Tenno went back and killed this historic character crucial to several events and saying; oh but nothing changed, there was literally no point in killing her"; is crappy storytelling. 

 The narrative you are going for is generally a tactic used well into the the story when you've completely run out of ideas. They haven't, this has pretty much been there first big act.

14 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Yeah, we know she wants us as replacement for kids.

That's sick.

No, that's generally what people who can't have children do. Wanting something to care for isn't sick, it's called adoption. Wanting family is actually one of the most human traits about sentients. I mean despite being advanced artificial constructs, both of the most notable ones seem to be motivated by the most organic emotions. Love.

15 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Tricking and lying to people to have kids.... that's a bad thing.

Some people don't tell their children they are adopted. Some parent tell santa claus is really and that their dog went to live on a farm. Some people tell themselves there loved one are going to heaven when we really know they aren't meant for it. Some do it to survive. Some do it out of shame.

Not all lies are meant to be malicious acts of trickery. Some times they are used to forget or change or keep people comfortable. Lotus wanted to let them believe they were the unstoppable supersoldiers. Lotus didn't want to be reminded of the past shee didn't want. Truth can sometimes be a hard thing and not everyone is strong enough to always abide by it. Not every situation benefits from it and can also hurt just as much as a lie can in more ways then one.

Warframes isn't a story of black and whites. Neither the Lotus or the Tenno are squeaky clean bastions of virtue. They have done wrong in there past but they are showing shades of trying to do better.

[Katinka]

On 3/24/2016 at 6:56 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

Do you remember the The Gradivus Dilemma?

The choice there, AS TOLD TO US BY LOTUS, was to pick between saving colonist or saving tenno.

There was NO tenno to save because the tenno were chilling in the moon.

Lotus lied to us and let a bunch of colonist die!

That whole event is now messed up because of this new story.

Transference makes the Operator feel the pain inflicted on the frame.  Now imagine being a Valkyr Operator undergoing the torture of Alad V's experiments.  That physical pain is felt, it is real and the psychological pain will be horrific too.  Then we need to consider what might happen if someone managed to gain understanding of how the warframe does work.  If Alad V or Captain Vor had actually managed to trace the power source (I think Vor was getting closer due to his void obsession) then they may have been able to track the location and put all of the tenno at risk.

On 3/25/2016 at 1:59 PM, Aimop95 said:

also, Tenno and warframes are different. Were we saving warframes? Or Tenno? Because Tenno are operators, and if those pods we saved were Tenno, then we did save lives.

I think tenno are more complex than being just the operator.  The operator and the warframe together are the tenno.  Just as Ordis describes himself as being the ship although he can now be one of many landing craft and possibly the orbiter too, the operator is the tenno when their mind is in a warframe.  So, Alad V's pods contained warframes but they were active and contained tenno minds that could feel the pain both physical and psychological.

 

As to the original question, it depends on how your method of time travel works.  One theory would say 'No.' because you'd cause a paradox.  By going back and killing Natah/Lotus you would undo everything in the future that caused you to want to do that and therefore you would have no cause to do it so you wouldn't do it and she wouldn't be dead ad infinitum ad nauseum.  It would be possible to accidentally kill her if that was not your intention but happened due to something else you wanted to do but you pretty much can't go back and succeed in your goals in the past without undoing your whole reason for time travelling.  Another theory would be one that allows us to remember the alternative history, possibly by shifting to an otherwise parallel timeline, which would remove the causality paradox but the issue there would be that there are enough people who support Lotus that someone could go back and assassinate her would be assassin first.  So still 'No.'  Actually, that is a goal that could be accomplished without causing a paradox as your goal would be to maintain the status quo.  We would just need someone to know who saved Lotus and send that person back to the right time, much like how John Connor knew to send Kyle Reese back to save Sarah Connor in the first Terminator film.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Letter13
When a thread is 4 months old, sometimes you just need to Let It Go(tm). Locking due to necro bumping.