I Really, Really Love Valkyr, but... (I don't love being permanently invincible)

[Gurpgork]

22 minutes ago, crashapple12 said:

if only paralisis was anywhere near as good as inaros' dessication

It is somewhere near as good as Desiccation, though. While it has a shorter range and a shorter duration, it costs a fifth as much energy. 

If Paralysis got a small range buff, it would be very comparable.

[crashapple12]

14 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

It is somewhere near as good as Desiccation, though. While it has a shorter range and a shorter duration, it costs a fifth as much energy. 

If Paralysis got a small range buff, it would be very comparable.

its less the range that is paralisis's problem. its more down to desiccation counting as a "Blind" which has a few incredibly large benefits, one being stealth modifiers which paralisis does not get and because of an archaic design oversight that people ignore.... is blind does not get stopped by ancient healer aura's paralisis does

and of course paralisis doesnt give the the lifesteal without the help of hysteria

Edit: dessication can also be cast while moving, and when you actualy look at the cost of the powers themselves and the fact that one might reasonably not use fleeting on valkyr the power cost is diference is minimal

Edited March 9, 2016 by crashapple12

[sekushiiandee]

On 3/2/2016 at 2:46 PM, tripletriple said:

Everytime I see a valkyr thread like this I can't help but think how egotistical the person on the other side must be.

What is boring to you is fun for others. Where is the alternatives to hysteria? Where are the other ideas to enhance her otherwise lack luster kit?

Where is your original and unique proposals to change her into an actual berserker? Nerf is a terrible word for valkyr. She needs buffs and a change to hysteria.

This is just a whining thread without those.

EDIT 

Just saw gurporks ideas. Great ideas there. Definitely would support that. My only addition would be to make ripline hit multiple targets.

^ agreed....i like gurporks ideas...but i would want to expand on hysteria even more

it would be nice to have her armor get increased a substantial amount.....so she still takes damage but she has ridiculous damage reduction in the end of it all + fatal damage delays

[Gurpgork]

7 minutes ago, crashapple12 said:

its less the range that is paralisis's problem. its more down to desiccation counting as a "Blind" which has a few incredibly large benefits, one being stealth modifiers which paralisis does not get and because of an archaic design oversight that people ignore.... is blind does not get stopped by ancient healer aura's paralisis does

and of course paralisis doesnt give the the lifesteal without the help of hysteria

Edit: dessication can also be cast while moving, and when you actualy look at the cost of the powers themselves and the fact that one might not use the power cost is diference is minimal

Well, yes. Those are good points. But I think Paralysis is still pretty good for an ability that only costs 5 energy. As such, it should be handled with care, lest it become something that gives you far too much for its cost, or a copy/paste of Desiccation. 

The lifesteal, however, isn't really a strong point of Dessication, since its damage doesn't scale and gets mitigated by armor. Inaros is better off using his heal-on-finisher passive to keep his health up.

2 minutes ago, sekushiiandee said:

^ agreed....i like gurporks ideas...but i would want to expand on hysteria even more

it would be nice to have her armor get increased a substantial amount.....so she still takes damage but she has ridiculous damage reduction in the end of it all + fatal damage delays

In my list of proposed changes, Warcry has that covered and then some, with its 100% armor boost that scales with Power Strength and increases further with the melee combo meter. It could very easily give Valkyr more armor than Chroma, if you can get your combo meter high enough. Giving Hysteria an armor boost or a damage reduction on top of that would be overkill.

[sekushiiandee]

11 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

 

In my list of proposed changes, Warcry has that covered and then some, with its 100% armor boost that scales with Power Strength and increases further with the melee combo meter. It could very easily give Valkyr more armor than Chroma, if you can get your combo meter high enough. Giving Hysteria an armor boost or a damage reduction on top of that would be overkill.

^ i think i wanted it that way to make it reflective of what it is right now....but still not being full invulnerable

 

i say this because in reality valkyr are the true saviors in high level missions X_X....sometimes invis frames

Edited March 9, 2016 by sekushiiandee

[crashapple12]

2 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Well, yes. Those are good points. But I think Paralysis is still pretty good for an ability that only costs 5 energy. As such, it should be handled with care, lest it become something that gives you far too much for its cost, or a copy/paste of Desiccation. 

The lifesteal, however, isn't really a strong point of Dessication, since its damage doesn't scale and gets mitigated by armor. Inaros is better off using his heal-on-finisher passive to keep his health up.

 

thing is paralysis is unreliable mostly because of those wonderful ancients and even if did go past the ancients it cant make up the difference with that stealth damage multiplier


if im also gunna keep comparing valkyr to inaros  im also going to state even with 1200 armor her total survive ability without invincibilty is a hell of alot lower than inaros... then again in terms of survive ability almost no actually takes a beating quite like inaros, especially with those 1300 health heals that some syndicate proc's can give and the fact that canceling his ult charge without using (jumping of ledges or walking into nullifiers) it refunds all the health used
 

[crashapple12]

6 minutes ago, sekushiiandee said:

^ i think i wanted it that way to make it reflective of what it is right now....but still not being full invulnerable

 

i say this because in reality valkyr are the true saviors in high level missions X_X....sometimes invis frames

i posted an idea a bit earlier that possibly make hysteria give a seconds of invincibility apon casting  and a few secconds every time she does a finisher (<though this is probably not necessary)  possibly add reviving to those ?
 

though rather than boost her armor wouldn't it be smarter to boost her health since armor damage mitigation does give heavy diminishing returns past what she gets with steel fiber alone whilst still retaining the vs armor damage 2.0 modifiers

[sekushiiandee]

16 minutes ago, crashapple12 said:

i posted an idea a bit earlier that possibly make hysteria give a seconds of invincibility apon casting  and a few secconds every time she does a finisher (<though this is probably not necessary)  possibly add reviving to those ?
 

though rather than boost her armor wouldn't it be smarter to boost her health since armor damage mitigation does give heavy diminishing returns past what she gets with steel fiber alone whilst still retaining the vs armor damage 2.0 modifiers

^it could potentially be flat damage reduction like we used to have for ember accelerant....50% base damage reduct + power str

[Foefaller]

Oh, and @Gurpgork, I like all the ideas you had, better than mine, but as long as Hysteria is an energy drain, you can't remove the invulnerability, unless it's also going to turn off Rage mod.

[Gurpgork]

3 hours ago, Foefaller said:

Oh, and @Gurpgork, I like all the ideas you had, better than mine, but as long as Hysteria is an energy drain, you can't remove the invulnerability, unless it's also going to turn off Rage mod.

...Why? What possible reason would it have to disable Rage? No energy drain does that, not even Exalted Blade or Primal Fury. If it were changed to not make Valkyr immortal and disabled Rage, it would completely kill the ability. I don't want that. I want it to be useful in some way that ordinary melee combat isn't, and that would just be one extra incentive to never toggle it on again. 

[(XBOX)lotus503]

On 3/2/2016 at 2:15 PM, KaneAshe said:

...I had to stop playing her because she was ruining the game for me.

I love her concept, I love her aesthetics, I love having so much armor... But I do not love being permanently invincible.

Brief invincibility can feel fun and powerful, permanent invincibility makes everything in the entire game feel pointless--including the process of collecting new items and powering up your Warframe, seeing as how Valk doesn't really need any of that to render almost all of the game's legitimate content completely trivial.

Please note, this is not a "nerf" thread. I know portions of this community have an allergic reaction to any mention of nerfs or balance tweaking, so let's completely set aside all argument over whether or not Valkyr is "OP" or not. The real issue at stake for me is that I can't even have fun with the character that I want to play the most.

Permanently. Invincible. Is. Boring.

Where's the excitement in knowing that nothing you do really matters because there is nothing whatsoever an enemy can do to stop you? How is it fun to have the highest armor in the game AND built-in lifesteal (both major reasons for why I chose Valk in the first place) When You Do Not Even Take Damage?!

I want to play as the deadly cat-like meat grinder of rage who survives by continually mowing down enemies while shrugging off damage as long as she is able to continue killing things... not the walking godmode who wonders why she is even playing the game because enemies might as well all die as soon as she enters the level to save her the trouble of killing them.

I want to have an objective to what I am doing, and a reason to use my characters strengths, and for my character to actually have weaknesses that I have to work around. (...No, being melee is not weakness. Not when there is absolutely no risk to your health regardless of how much time you have to spend traveling to an enemy. The reason why melee is traditionally considered a weakness is because Melee Exposes You To More Damage. ...Well, not for Valk. End of side-rant.)

Please return the synergy to Valkyr's kit and make her gameplay engaging and exciting by whatever means necessary. Berserker gameplay should involve adrenaline. It's impossible to feel adrenaline when there is no threat and nothing at stake.

~Thank you from a player who wishes to be a Valkyr player.

Don't use hysteria, play a different build?

[crashapple12]

7 hours ago, sekushiiandee said:

^it could potentially be flat damage reduction like we used to have for ember accelerant....50% base damage reduct + power str

i'm only saying the temporary invincibility because it works rather nicely on wukong and then it still keeps the invincibility in some way but still yes... even if there is only temporary invincibility with her current health sheilds and armor, in the long run she would need damage reduction though i would personally hope its damage reduction scaling on missing health and for her to have a larger health pool say... 500 base health

though a few other things i would add on top of gurpgorks idea which is fairly solid are

ripline: holding the power marks up to 5 or so enemies and pulls them all on release
casting while wall hanging will temporarily hang people from the wall dealing finisher damage over time and blinding them (time for some batzerker stealth) also finishers on these

war cry: the slow is applied as an aura and is permanently active for its duration so more than just the first bunch of enemies get affected by said slow(though this would make the innate eternal war a bit OP)

paralysis: have it at least count as a blind so it bypasses ancient aura's and provide stealth damage modifiers

Edited March 10, 2016 by crashapple12

[D0DECA]

21 hours ago, BroQui said:

I use to be able to run Hysteria for a whole survival. Now, when things get hairy, I have to drop cakes, unhysteria, block (or kill), then get back into Hysteria.

That is exactly what I'm raging on about. I'm sorry BroQui (or anybody else thinking alike), to me these "problems" are trivial. I don't perceive using other mechanics of the game or having to deal with new problems as an inconvenience. And neither should you, as it helps you grow, makes you feel competend with your skill as a player, gives you good feels as you overcome ever increasing threats. That is what I meant when i said that an indefinite God Mode is destructive for the groth of new players and the quality of this community. I don't want Warframe to be a mindless grindfest for mediocre-ists and valkyr is supporting just that.

[Foefaller]

16 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

...Why? What possible reason would it have to disable Rage? No energy drain does that, not even Exalted Blade or Primal Fury. If it were changed to not make Valkyr immortal and disabled Rage, it would completely kill the ability. I don't want that. I want it to be useful in some way that ordinary melee combat isn't, and that would just be one extra incentive to never toggle it on again. 

If you can't die (as your suggestion would prevent fatal damage) and yet you can still gain energy from Rage and lifesteal from Hysteria attacks, what's to stop someone from hysteria'ing from deployment to extraction? At least with invulnerablity you (theoretically) have to pop out of hysteria now and again, if only to take enogh health damage to build up energy to start all over.

I mean, the OP started this thread because he feels like it's boring to Hysteria the entire mission. That change without ignoring rage or removing lifesteal would just make that worse.

[Tzolkat]

On 3/9/2016 at 0:08 PM, BroQui said:

Eximus now effects Hysteria with energy drain. 

I can't find anything in the patch notes about this. Are you talking about energy leech/parasitic eximus aura or disruptor attacks?

 

On 3/2/2016 at 5:15 PM, KaneAshe said:

Permanently. Invincible. Is. Boring.

Then maybe mod her for warcry instead? It's not like you don't have a choice other than to press 4. Personally, I use hysteria as a failsafe. And with enough nullifiers or disruptors around, the danger is definitely still there even with invulnerability.. which is more like a conditional damage ignore than pure invulnerability, though the conditions are very easy to meet.

The way Valkyr's kit is set up, it doesn't matter what the change is or how good it looks on paper. Any added caveat to hysteria amounts to a substantial nerf to the frame as a whole. To make it be anything different without being a substantial nerf would require all of her other abilities and their augments to be redone completely.

[Gurpgork]

2 hours ago, Foefaller said:

If you can't die (as your suggestion would prevent fatal damage) and yet you can still gain energy from Rage and lifesteal from Hysteria attacks, what's to stop someone from hysteria'ing from deployment to extraction? At least with invulnerablity you (theoretically) have to pop out of hysteria now and again, if only to take enogh health damage to build up energy to start all over.

I mean, the OP started this thread because he feels like it's boring to Hysteria the entire mission. That change without ignoring rage or removing lifesteal would just make that worse.

Oh, I see. Looks like I need to clarify that bit of my post.

My intention is that it would only be a 1-2 second delay of fatal damage, which ideally would be only enough time to get from one enemy to another and claw their face off, and if you weren't successful, the damage delay would expire and kill you. 

I'll update my post. There's a couple other ideas from this thread that I should probably put into it as well.

[AzureTerra]

Then don't use Hysteria much. Simple.

Valkyr is my Favourite Frame and i much prefer to fight out side of the 4th power but its there if i need to heal or need to not take damage while doing something else (Hacking, Rezing, capturing targets etc)

 

 

[evilfluffy]

On March 8, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Specific.Zod said:

She is boring. i know. because valkyr don't have mass-destruction ability like other frame. Valkyr is one of my main too.

You misundrstood the last paragraph was not me saying she's boring it was ops saying she's boring because they built for in the way that they had least fun.

Valkyr is one of the most fun frames for me because I love just "going berserk" and watching my health bar go up and down like a yoyo.  And if I go down that just means it is getting more fun because that is more fun than "I am unkillable thing watch me do things"

[.Murk.]

you are all using valkyr wrong, hysteria is there for life steal, thats it. Eternal war build, Naramon Crit'N'Cloak, and a Bloodrush Crit-erax(atterax) is her true power.

[Zinthir]

This has been an ongoing spray of salt since 17.5 and the threads never end

Valkyr's invulnerability is not going to go away, no matter how much a few people might want it to.

You look at the ability and think "wowie! This needs to be nerfed!", but you need to realize that Warframe is only balanced for the end game. Anybody who doesn't purposefully take a terrible build can easily solo anything that's not top tier.

Anyone can bring a tonkor that does hundreds of thousands of damage with limited mods anywhere and point and click on enemies and win the game. No contest, no chance for the enemy to win. And that's how it's supposed to be.

Warframe is a game about grinding, and although you can try to make it a challenge, it never NEEDS to be, with any warframe.

At its core, Warframe is balanced around who can kill enemies the fastest, a frame being good at not dying is simply a frame better at being able to keep shooting.

Ignoring non-endgame as it always has been, one thing hysteria sucks at compared to any late game weapon is killing enemies. 

Nullifiers can be dealt with if you have primed reach, a 800p mod to buy at max, but then it still takes time. Time you're not killing, time you're not getting oxygen, finishing the wave, time you're getting mods, resources, credits. Death is a non-factor in Warframe if you don't have a terrible team, and reviving is only a problem if you're leveling, and even then not that big of a deal. Hysteria isn't slow at killing, but so many weapons, in combination with better Warframe abilities, are much faster.

Hysteria isn't bad by any means, it makes seeing a Valkyr in your squad when doing something like a sortie nice. She can dish out damage where other warframes can't venture. But there's simply always a technically better choice in our small 4 man squads.

Even if you disagree, hysteria simply isn't going to be getting changes of this magnitude anytime soon. Warframe is a game where enemies are resources, we just forget that when actually fighting them and that's what makes it fun.

 

 

 

[Zinthir]

On March 3, 2016 at 4:28 PM, Magneu said:

Following your logic, your opinion on balance is less valid than mine, which is less valid than the next guys. Where does it stop? The very first player, the alpha? The...Excalibur Prime. 

Saying "I've played longer so opinion discarded" is one thing, but if you simply haven't experienced much of the gameplay it does sorta diminish how much sway you're going to have in a discussion.

unless this guy's been playing nonstop for the less than a month he's been on Warframe, it's something you need to be conscious of.

When it comes to someone who's played for six months or 3 years, it doesn't really matter, since you've both experienced the same game for a long time

[Buzkyl]

1 hour ago, Zinthir said:

Valkyr's invulnerability is not going to go away, no matter how much a few people might want it to.

Just like trinity's blessing wasn't going to be changed from god mode

Just like Iron Skin wasn't going to be changed from god mode.

Even the closet thing to god mode, Limbo has alot more downsides than upside compared to Hysteria.

God Mode is not required to be viable melee at high levels, Inaros shows with enough EHP and health regeneration, you can be viable melee frame at high levels. Hysteria's invulnerability is a crutch that is holding her back. While it should be removed it should be replaced with something that maintains the same aspect of a high tanking/damage skill but still has risk vs reward.

[Zinthir]

9 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

Just like trinity's blessing wasn't going to be changed from god mode

Just like Iron Skin wasn't going to be changed from god mode.

Even the closet thing to god mode, Limbo has alot more downsides than upside compared to Hysteria.

God Mode is not required to be viable melee at high levels, Inaros shows with enough EHP and health regeneration, you can be viable melee frame at high levels. Hysteria's invulnerability is a crutch that is holding her back. While it should be removed it should be replaced with something that maintains the same aspect of a high tanking/damage skill but still has risk vs reward.

Equating old iron skin and old blessing with hysteria is going WAY overboard

I'm saying it's not changing because enough people like it, and due to the fact it isn't effecting the meta whatsoever, not enough people care about it in the first place.

If valkyr was a frame you saw every other mission, it would be different, but she simply isn't.

I'm not giving much reasoning right now, and that's because this discussion has been going on since 17.5 and nothing has changed, and DE has given no signals that things will change. These threads only serve to have some pro or anti hysteria OP give a heated stance and rile a bunch of people up and cause the same messages to come up on a weekly basis

Edited March 11, 2016 by Zinthir

[PrincessPilfer]

You people know that the only reason she's even a little viable at higher levels is because she doesn't take any damage right? Her DPS doesn't mean anything if she's dead before she gets into range.

 

I'm Ok with hystaria not making you invincible, but just warcry isn't really enough when you have to charge into a hail of bullets and rocket fire to deal any damage.

 

I also find Valkyr plenty exciting to play. It's effectively a race, can you kill things fast enough to get the energy drops to keep going or do you die? (Also nulifiers and bursas can and will kill you if you make 1 wrong move or don't see them coming).

[Buzkyl]

1 minute ago, Zinthir said:

Equating old iron skin and old blessing with hysteria is going WAY overboard

I'm saying it's not changing because enough people like it, and due to the fact it isn't effecting the meta whatsoever, not enough people care about it in the first place.

If valkyr was a frame you saw every other mission, it would be different, but she simply isn't.

I'm not giving much reasoning right now, and that's because this discussion has been going on since 17.5 and nothing has changed, and DE has given no signals that things will change. These threads only serve to have some pro or anti hysteria OP give a heated ripe a bunch of people up and cause the same messages to come up on a weekly basis

 

DE has always operated in cycles, when Valkyr is put back on the table, you will then see changes. DE has also said Saryn will be changed when the dust settles however we haven't had any major changes, does that mean it's not going to happen? No that means it's not happening right now. To operate under the reason "well it hasn't changed in so long so it's not going to change" makes little sense , by that reasoning, nothing has nor will change also a. Popularity is a very poor choice in determining the balance of a frame.

Valkyr was introduced in update 11, Melee mod scaling was introduced in Update 16.9, with her buff coming in U17.5.She went over 4 updates without any major buff of that magnitiude, however looking back you can see how long DE took to finally come back to her.