Do Snipers even have a place in Warframe?

[-CM-Hekovashi]

As long as nullifiers exist in their current state-no, snipers don't have a place. So as bows or opticor, or any other low RoF weapon, yes it can deal tons of damage, but all of this is going to nothing when you meet a nullifier. I wanna love the bows and i love snipers (~10% primary used is vectis), but you just can't kill nullifiers with it unless you run in to bubble or waste half of your ammo supply. As mostly solo player i don't always have reliably buddy at my side with high RoF weapon, and constantly changing from primary to secondary (with high RoF) isn't that fast and pleasant thing ether.

[Gahrzerkire]

8 hours ago, marshmellory said:

the only time a sniper can out damage the tonkor is outside its effective range of 30-40m. otherwise a single sniper shot will kill 2 or 3 enemies tops and a tonkor grenade will kill the entire group.

ofc you can get 30 kills a clip when the enemies are completely lined up, but that never happens in any regular scenario except for void defense

lol you clearly have never used a room to your advantage, and snipers can absolutely out damage a tonkor when used correctly. note the important part.... when used... CORRECTLY. There are inumerable ways to make the space, to line up the targets, i get an average of 8-10 kills per shot. sometimes i only get one, because that ancient or bombard had to go, but most of the time, i lay waste to swathes of enemies with ease.

Again, bows are in the same boat as snipers. A sniper is as effective if not more effective then a bow.

[Rebellis]

The one mission type where snipers and bows could excel also happens to be the same mission type where you shouldn't really be using your weapon at all - Spy.

9 hours ago, Olivionic_Gearhart said:

lol you clearly have never used a room to your advantage, and snipers can absolutely out damage a tonkor when used correctly. note the important part.... when used... CORRECTLY. There are inumerable ways to make the space, to line up the targets, i get an average of 8-10 kills per shot. sometimes i only get one, because that ancient or bombard had to go, but most of the time, i lay waste to swathes of enemies with ease.

Again, bows are in the same boat as snipers. A sniper is as effective if not more effective then a bow.

The issue with snipers and bows has nothing to do with damage output. In high level content, surrounded by several nullies, arctic bubbles, bombards, and 50 other lvl 90+ enemies, you simply don't have the luxury of taking your sweet time and plucking off targets one-by-one or lining up 8-10 targets for that one magic shot.

In nearly 2000 hours of playing Warframe, I've NEVER came across a situation where needing a sniper or a bow was a must. That's sad since this is suppose to be a space ninja game, but it speaks truth about how, with a potato and enough forma, basically any weapon can deal with enemies up to lvl 50-60. Beyond that (mainly due to how broken things are) and the meta turns more towards avoiding fights altogether or using CC abilities, finishers, and weapons with massive AoE.

 

Edited March 12, 2016 by Rebellis

[R34LM]

Snipers fail because they are usually made for single priority targets....in a game where there can be five priority targets at once. Also, enemies rarely keep still to lang a headshot, which, mind you, may not even kill the enemy anyway. Vectis prime runs about 67% chance for crit and the annoying 90% multishot. Can't count how many times neither of those would fire off.

Innate punchthrough should also be a no brainer.

Also, and most likely the biggest reason, bows just do the job better; they have higher damage, are innately silent and most, if not all, have innate punchthrough at full charge. The only things they lack, compared to snipers, are hitscan projectiles and scopes, with the latter usually being a hindrance in the mob situation.

As for stealth missions, allow me to whip out my hushed tonkor and blow up the entire group of seven enemies blocking my way. Saves time, ammo, and, ironically, detection.

Edited March 12, 2016 by R34LM

[Gahrzerkire]

1 hour ago, R34LM said:

-snip-

 

1 hour ago, Rebellis said:

-snip-

you guys should all know i am all up for the next sniper rework where they give them 500% multishot with 100% crit chance, and auto headshot lock on for each individual bullet for up to 10 targets. Im all up for that. 

[Bobtm]

1 hour ago, Rebellis said:

In nearly 2000 hours of playing Warframe, I've NEVER came across a situation where needing a sniper or a bow was a must.

 

That's a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.  The game shouldn't force a weapon type down players' throats, let folks use the weapons they enjoy to accomplish the tasks set before them.  You can play Warframe with any weapon type outside of special restricted missions such as Tac alerts or Sorties.  There's never any need for X specific class amongst any equipment category.

Is a Loki better for stealth?  Yep, sure is.  But a Rhino can manage too if they build for it.  Is an aimless weapon like the Tonkor easier to use for crowds?  Yup, absolutely.  But a player with a sniper rifle can still succeed in missions.  This same trend can continually be said over and over for every situation in Warframe, for every single gear classification.

The simplest way to boil it down is just this.  The same folks acting like sniper rifles are "unusable" due to not having Punchthrough built in or what have you, still won't be utilizing sniper rifles if they get free Punchthrough.  The folks who already don't use snipers won't suddenly start using them unless they somehow become easier for crowd-work.  This of course would really only be achievable by making them into weapons that aren't snipers.  In their current iteration, the sniper rifles are in a good spot in terms of balance.  They hit absurdly hard, but slower to a degree, their speed however is managable should a player play to there loadout's strengths and weaknesses.

Make it so that sniper rifles are pin-point while either hip firing or while scoped.  Triple (or more) global weapon swap speed.  Boom, that's the only changes snipers really need.

1 hour ago, R34LM said:

Snipers fail because they are usually made for single priority targets....in a game where there can be five priority targets at once. Also, enemies rarely keep still to lang a headshot, which, mind you, may not even kill the enemy anyway. Vectis prime runs about 67% chance for crit and the annoying 90% multishot. Can't count how many times neither of those would fire off.

Innate punchthrough should also be a no brainer.

Also, and most likely the biggest reason, bows just do the job better; they have higher damage, are innately silent and most, if not all, have innate punchthrough at full charge. The only things they lack, compared to snipers, are hitscan projectiles and scopes, with the latter usually being a hindrance in the mob situation.

As for stealth missions, allow me to whip out my hushed tonkor and blow up the entire group of seven enemies blocking my way. Saves time, ammo, and, ironically, detection.

Bows don't don't have higher damage than snipers.  Multishot in general is an issue as a mod parameter in Warframe currently, and your notation of accuracy versus targets counteracts your claim that bows are superior.  A hitscan sniper is easier to land shots with on targets who move erratically at range.  It's purely a matter of player timing, since one needs not lead their shot when it's instantaneous.  As it stands now, bows and snipers are relatively well balanced against one another as weapon types.  Each have their distinct advantages and disadvantages.  Allowing for varied choice within the same wheelhouse.

The Tonkor point is literally a problem with the Tonkor, explosives of its variety (stuff like Penta, Ogris, Angstrum, etc) should more or less auto-alert targets on explosive detonation unless the player explicitly slots Hush or its equivalent.  If the Tonkor acted in an appropriate manner, not being a viable free pass for stealth, not getting free headshots willy nilly, and not doing comparable self-damage with its peers, it wouldn't be the broken mess that it is now.  A weapon that is genuinely broken, like the Tonkor, cannot and should not ever be used as a benchmark for comparison's sake of any category.

[CaptainMorganFreeman]

On 3/8/2016 at 8:35 PM, Bobtm said:

Considering that we've got enough CC to permanently lockdown existence itself, yes snipers have viability.  Will you be killing fodder as fast as someone with an automatic rifle?  No, of course not, but that doesn't mean there's not room for someone with a sniper to get some work done.  It's about having a wider swathe of tools.

As it stands now the only weapon in the entire game that can pretend to hold a candle to the short term/bursty damage of a sniper is the Tonkor, and it only does so because it (via a bug) deals free headshots for boosted damage.  Basically speaking, if you've got a sniper you can nix a heavy target while focusing more on an overall supportive role as part of a squad.  Considering that players can solo most content on their own, it's not detrimental at all to have someone running about with a sniper rifle to take out the heavy things more swiftly.

The big misconception folks tend to have here is that they believe a player with a sniper has to sit still in some loft or corner, carefully taking time and picking out shots.  That, well, is precisely the reason people do poorly with snipers.  Dart around, constantly change up your position, fire off shots fast and move on.  In many types of endless you'll get mob conga lines, and a single well-placed sniper round can instantly down a number of them.  Use a sniper rifle like it's more of a heavy semi-auto rifle, take risks, and stay in the thick of things.

Beyond that, we're not restricted to one tool among our loadouts only.  Have a sniper and go plow through foes, then launch into melee attacks when there are enemies not in a line nearby to take them out.  While weapon swap speed is laborious and far too slow, it's still there.  Keep a Secondary weapon at the ready to pop foes with as additional variation, don't just fixate onto one solid thing and block out other options.  A sniper rifle adds a distinct tool to your loadout that is absolutely great for something like a Bursa.  Stun that thing then evaporate its healthbar, etc.

So what I'm getting at is merely this;  There's not a place for "sniping" ie. sitting up in some hidey hole and slowly popping targets, in Warframe.  Doing that route isn't very viable since you will absolutely have to leave to actually get any loot, and you'll be adding little to the team dynamic.  However there is absolutely a place for sniper rifles in Warframe.  They're the big, mean, and burly semi-autos and they add a distinct degree of variation to a loadout.

As far as any possible changes are concerned.  The inaccuracy on hip-firing that they suffer from needs to go the way of the dinosaur.  The scope bonuses alone are enough to incentivize/reward aiming, there's no need to force unreliability onto them for hip-firing.  And triple, if not quadruple weapon swap speed.  We're space ninjas, we can do so many things so fast, but we change out weaponry like we're handling dainty teacups.

probably the best comment and most well written post ive seen on threads in a long time. +1

 

[felixsylvaris]

I think that the core problem with snipers are:

1. Using zoom in is a lot of hasse
2. Without or with zoom in snipers damage is nothing special.

Explanation:

If we take twin grakatas which are ok weapon (some people use them) we have 400 dmg per second with crit potencial. And this is weapon very easy to use (spray and pray).

If we take Vulkar wraith (I hope it is good sniper rifle) 375 dmg or potencially 450 if full zoomed it. (crits are not bad, but are lower)

So we have a choice of either to use easy 400 dps or very complicated 450 dmg.

Solution:

• Increase zoom in bonus. To something like 10%, 20% 50% So there will be right gain for a effort. And we can use either use snipers as rifles from waist or as sniper for tons of damage.

 

 

[marshmellory]

14 hours ago, Olivionic_Gearhart said:

lol you clearly have never used a room to your advantage, and snipers can absolutely out damage a tonkor when used correctly. note the important part.... when used... CORRECTLY. There are inumerable ways to make the space, to line up the targets, i get an average of 8-10 kills per shot. sometimes i only get one, because that ancient or bombard had to go, but most of the time, i lay waste to swathes of enemies with ease.

Again, bows are in the same boat as snipers. A sniper is as effective if not more effective then a bow.

unless you're using the lanka with metal auger mods, that's simply not possible because the average width of an enemy is 0.7m. don't exaggerate

Edited March 13, 2016 by marshmellory

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

If only they had scanner vision and enough innate punch through to pass through walls to hit those targets, or restored energy on headshots, or picked up ammo and mod drops when shot, or had bigger magazines, faster reload speeds, and thermal freaking vision. 

My Rubico demands thermal freaking vision! 

[Scar.Heart]

1 hour ago, felixsylvaris said:

 

• Increase zoom in bonus. To something like 10%, 20% 50% So there will be right gain for a effort. And we can use either use snipers as rifles from waist or as sniper for tons of damage.

 

 

IMO Zooming can suck one. They can remove the zooming levels, and just leave us the damage bonus.

27 minutes ago, marshmellory said:

unless you're using the lanka with both punchthrough mods, that's simply not possible because the average width of an enemy is 0.7m. don't exaggerate

Unless they changed Lanka while I was away, it has an innate 5m Punchthrough.

You don't need any PT mods to break 10 enemies with that.

[marshmellory]

Just now, MagnusFury said:

IMO Zooming can suck one. They can remove the zooming levels, and just leave us the damage bonus.

Unless they changed Lanka while I was away, it has an innate 5m Punchthrough.

You don't need any PT mods to break 10 enemies with that.

yes, i'm aware... you would need at  least metal auger to get to 7m, which would be able to pierce 10 enemies.

[Scar.Heart]

2 hours ago, marshmellory said:

yes, i'm aware... you would need at  least metal auger to get to 7m, which would be able to pierce 10 enemies.

That's interesting.

I always manage to slug more than that without any PT mods.

Then again, I do have Split Chamber slotted, so maybe it's that second bullet?

 

I'll go try without SC and see if I hit more than that.

 

EDIT:

Yup, it was that second bullet. Heavy Caliber + SC ftw.

Edited March 13, 2016 by MagnusFury

[Darkmoone1]

Nullifiers completely void any sniping strat and since it's in half of the factions in this game, it just doesn't have a stable consistant place in the team comp.

Nullifiers just add a large part of the gameplay issues with this game. We have those Crombas now, so I feel like its time to keep things like nullifiers out unless its for something big like raids.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Darkmoone1

[starsrift]

Not in all mission types. Great for the varieties of defensive and 'infinite' missions.

I enjoy taking Zephyr to some inaccessible part of the map to set up shop and kill all the specials while I let my team handle the mobs. 'specially in Hieracon, Triton, etc.

But I usually use a Sybaris, instead of my actual sniper rifle or bow, for the most part. ...Only because I love that gun, and it's accurate AF. <3

Edited March 13, 2016 by starsrift

[Telogor]

My main problem with sniper rifles is that there's not enough reward for how difficult they are to use.  They have insane scope sway, need to never miss a shot to keep the combo meter going, and the Lanka has both charge time *and* travel time.  The Lanka should be changed to hitscan, kind of like a sniper version of the Opticor, and all snipers should have scope sway removed.  ALL other games with sniper rifles have either no sway or a way to stop the sway temporarily.